is it true that if Napoleon III hadn't been dragged into a retarded war with the prussians that the 2nd french empire might be remembered in a more positive light?the biggest criticisms I've seen of it seem to be>military was outdated (but there were calls for reform)>retarded geopolitics leaving france isolatedBut it seems like many, including Britain, were largely warm to the idea of good relations with the new Empire-or at least, with Nappy III.
>>18717914Probably yeah although I can't really imagine it lasting beyond him
>>18717914the main problem in the F-P War was that the army was broken down into regiments and scattered around the country. this was done on purpose to prevent them from starting rebellions.
>>18718068didn't they literally not have maps or something retarded
>>18718134No. It took a while to assemble them into brigades and divisions and move them to the front lines.
>>18718140I'm not >>18718134 but I swear I did once read something about how they lacked maps but only specifically certain maps of *France* rather than anywhere else, which became an issue when they started getting pushed back.Either way, I wonder if there was anyone who-had they listened to him-could have reformed the Army to adequately take on the Prussians. Feels like French industry probably couldn't keep up regardless
>>18717914Prussia itself gambled massively and was carried by lack, their own logistics and organization was halfway collapsed by the time they were near Paris.For some reason, none of the Prussian fuck ups are explained in that close run war in English language sources.Wether people know it or not, the beautiful Paris that they all love is a result of the second empire, so its legacy still endures.The only geopolitical mistakes were the entire Mexico adventure and then not helping Austria in 1866, underestimating how lucky Prussians were.
>>18718303the main issue was the Prussian supply lines being extended over 200 miles of hostile territory
additionally, the Dreyse needle gun, which had been devastating in the wars with Denmark and Austria, facing armies with muzzle-loader muskets, proved less effective against French infantry with breech loading Chassepot rifles
History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce.-Wayne Gretzky
>>18717914No, that is not true, the Second Empire was always doomed and shitty from what I can tell
>>18718345There's actually a good argument that the Austrians may have shown supremacy of the muzzleloader if they approached the war differently.Dreyse gave lots of firepower and the Prussians decided the best use of it would be relatively loose formation that defends with the rate of fire at the range it can pull off.Well the Lorenz and other muzzle loaded rifled muskets had better range and accuracy so had the Austrians just decided to enter a firefight against the Prussians then that, and slightly better artillery they've had could've gave them an edge. Even when Dreyse was able to reach them they still had an advantage of having to account for lesser bullet drop etc. so the rate of fire may have not been as decisive until we're talking about sub 150 metre ranges. The problem was that forever-underfunded Austrian army didn't put enough money into accuracy training and didn't believe they could pull off "fire tactics", so they tried to just rush Prussian positions with a bayonet charge since that was technically easier and allowed for a sort of schwerpunkt to be created in the battleline.As for the French their main problem was lack of strategic mobility. Had Bazaine felt confident in being able to retreat from the German encirclement then what could the Germans really do? They'd face the same logistical difficulties they've faced before while having to deal with mobile French armies made of regulars who notably were less numerous and as such needed less supplies. Eventually the numbers game would've evened out a little because the French were fielding national guard units, it just took time and you'd see overextended Germans having to deal with the situation where the French may simply break through a flank of theirs and force their army into retreat in turn.
>>18717914Idk, he was still doing retarded shit in Mexico
>>18718345The German army retired the Dreyse almost as soon as the war was over and replaced it with a copypaste clone of the Chassepot.
>>18718345Not entirely. AFAIK only some elite French regiments had Chassepots and most of the army still used muzzle-loading Minie rifles in 1870.
>>18718376They've produced about a million Chassepots by the time the war started. They didn't have that many of them in the later phases of the war when they were arming NG with whatever they could buy on the market at the time but it's not like it was all worse - for instance one of the rifles they were buying quite often were Remington rolling-blocks which you know those were very good rifles.
>>18718368would they have stayed longer if prussia wasn't threatening them?
>>18718303>>18718309The Prussians got a lasting terror of Francs-tireurs out of it, which informed their military policing strategy well into WW2.
>>18718426Probably not, the US would force them to leave. Maximilian and Carlota would be cooked anyway.
>>18718441>be installed by arch conservative chud coup>time to liberalize the country!Cooked does not even begin to describe Maximilian.
>>18718384>>18718345Doesn't mean shit as the Mexican force destroyed Imperial Frogs with British smoothbore musket and baker rifle, absolute embarrassment.
>>18718303They were also lucky that Austria didn't take advantage of their distraction to avenge 1866 because German territory was almost denuded of troops and the Austrians could have just walked right in there with nothing much to stop them.
>>18718309Don't worry, Prussia and its Bavarian allies are already using lightning war guns.
>>18718472the unfortunate reality of living on a continent surrounded by hostile neighbors while the North in the Civil War could devote all of its resources to the conflict and still have leftover troops for the Indian wars in the west.
>>18718472Nothing happens by luck. Play any FFA multiplayer game and you'll realize that behind the scenes all the players are whispering to eachother shit like "stay neutral in the upcoming war with France and I'll protect you from Russia in the future" or something along those lines.
>>18718505In the US War of Independence Britain had to leave half the Royal Navy in home waters or else the French would invade them, and some of the army had to garrison Ireland so they were limited in what they could put into the conflict.
>>18718472Austria was the only major threat they could have faced; the Russians were on good terms with Prussia and would be all the way until WW1.
>>18718472The Prussian army was designed for quick smash-and-grab operations, not total war like the Civil War.
>>18718303>The only geopolitical mistakes were the entire Mexico adventure and then not helping Austria in 1866Kissinger (inb4 anima seething screeching at the sight of the trigger word Jew name) has a fairly detailed breakdown of Napoleon III's atrocious diplomatic choices in the lead up to the war, I'll have to get my copy of Diplomacy and look through those chapters again, but the list of fuckups is fairly substantial and begins with the Austrian-Italian wars
>>18718437It's honestly impressive how traumatized German military thinking seems to have been by that experience. They would absolutely chimp the fuck out at this stuff literally everywhere they occupied throughout the existence of Germany. The Brits would've probably killed half of Ireland if they handled the 1916-1922 period the same way the Germans handled Belarus and Poland.
>>18718591Bismarck baited him into declaring war and he took the b8.
>>18718539>>18718587Austria have huge population. Need get shitalian support.
>>18718604what
>>18718823Are you colorblind or what?
>>18718456>>18718441May Maximilian save Lombardy-Venetia from the Savoyard aggressors. The guy shouldn't go to Mexico.
The German high command in 1914 forgot just how much the F-P War was a near-run thing.
>>18718539Russia had not fought a war with them since the Seven Years War and both had a common interest in suppressing Polish nationalism.
>>18718345this was the last major war fought with paper cartridges
>>18718303Capturing Napoleon III and causing the government to collapse and Paris to break into anarchy was a huge stroke of luck.
>>18718068>>18718140France also had a rather underdeveloped railroad network.
>>18719019Wasn't it because his wife wanted to be empress and was convinced Mexico was her destiny?
>>18719147He can convinced her
>>18719111Are you sure? Last one was Franco-German needlefire rifle use in Satsuma Rebellion.
>>18719119Eh not exactly. The subsequent revolution following Bonaparte’s capture lead to a Republic that prolonged and made the war a much worse thing via levee in mass. Bismarck would have preferred an earlier peace deal with Napoleon III that would have likely been lighter and avoided such a lasting rivalry.
>>18718599Iirc the Parliament fucked him over and refused to support his military reforms cause they thought Prussia was a friendly ally against Austria
>>18719147yeah, apparently he wanted to reject the offer in the first place and was ready to abdicate when things went downhill but charlotte was the one that talked him out of it both times. don't know why she was so obsessed with ruling 1860's mexico of all places.
>>18719190The perils of listening to women.
>>18719178Why did he go to war knowing France wasn't ready? He went to war after his miscalculation in Mexico no less, a lesson he did not learn from. He wasn't merely a mediocre ruler out of his element, he was an actively terrible ruler who presided over a completely unnecessary crushing defeat that broke the concert of Europe, prevented them from counterbalancing the power of Germany and set the stage for the world wars.
>>18719122NoFrench rail was better than prussian rail
>>18719190Because the Americas were still a exotic place in the european minds, besides Brazil already had a monarchy working well. It was better than doing nothing in the austrian court. Why didn't she leave when everything falled apart? Because she thought mexicans wouldn't be willing to kill his husband and cause an international outrage
