>>18725492
In Martin Luther’s case specifically he argued that Saturday sabbaths do not apply to gentiles because they are not ancient Jews. Using the traditional Sunday as a day of worship is just as good as any other because Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law altogether. This is why he accused them of being Jewish

>>18725492
This is a problem with sola scriptura. I concede this as a protestant. But I still refuse to blindly accept the authority of Rome. Which at the time was incredibly corrupt and rotten.

>>18725492
Did Luther know jesus was a jew?

>>18725506
God blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. So the day itself has nothing to do with Jews or Israel, the day itself is holy whether you're a Jew or a Gentile so regardless of who you are, you will defile the day if you do not rest and keep it holy.

There is never going to be a non-holy seventh day ever in history. Every single seventh day in history has been holy because God made it holy the very first seventh day. The Sabbath day will be holy until the end of the age.

>>18725506
he spun out a tract mostly focusing on how supposed Jewish preachers active in the area had influenced them without any evidence, while mostly ignoring the sabbatarians in that text themselves. This was also his start of doing a 180 on his more peaceful ideas towards the Jews that culminated in "On the Jews and their Lies." Is there any evidence the Jews had turned to proselytization in that era/region or why would he have thought so?

>>18725524
Only it does though, the specific Sabbath commandments come directly from the Mosaic law given to the Jews. God's earlier prophets like Noah, Abraham and Joseph knew nothing about it. Were they defiling the Sabbath? No, because the Mosaic law didn't exist yet.
By all means, keep the seventh day holy as you wish. But if you're going to claim it as a biblical imperative, the you must also cut off your foreskin, as Martin Luther rightly pointed out to the Sabbatarians.

>>18725528
>This was also his start of doing a 180 on his more peaceful ideas towards the Jews that culminated in "On the Jews and their Lies."
His arguments in that book are among his best ever though.

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>>18725530
The Holy Sabbath was created in Genesis 2:2. And God said Abraham kept all his laws and commandments.

When God gave Moses the Sabbath command, he began saying: "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy." So it was a thing they already knew about and not a brand new thing he was revealing to them. He was calling on them to remember it and officially adopt it as a law.

Oral law has existed since Adam and passed down all the way down to Noah and then to Abraham and to Israel.

>>18725581
>Oral law has existed since Adam and passed down all the way down to Noah and then to Abraham and to Israel.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say this. Moses made a new covenant with God, like Abraham and Noah before him, and the Mosaic law was received then as revelation. If everyone already knew the law, what was the point of the revelation? At this point you’ve departed from the realm of sola scriptura altogether into Islamic mythology.
You also ignored Luther’s rebuttal. If it’s biblically imperative to keep the seventh day Sabbath, is it not then also imperative to cut off your foreskin and keep kosher? If yes, then you’re directly contradicting the New Testament. If no, then any argument for a seventh day Sabbath falls apart, as it recognises the law is fulfilled

>>18725507
>But I still refuse to blindly accept the authority of Rome.
Yeah that’s why so many modern day evangelicals are beginning to accept apocryphal works like the book of Enoch into their canon. They flatly reject organized religious authority out of principle, but completely ignore that they’ve turned the TikTok and YouTube algorithms into a de facto magisterium.

>>18725715
I doubt the anon is an evangelical if he's willing to concede sola scriptura problems

>>18725586
Circumcisuon is the Mosaic law. The Sabbath is the 10 commandments. Luther said in the book Jews and their lies that every Christian has the obligation to obey the 10 commandments.

I didn't say Abraham already had all the Mosaic laws, but they already had laws and rules and commands passed down from Adam. And among those the Sabbath could have been included since the Sabbath was created by God in Genesis 2 and not in Exodus.

Also, God said the covenant of circumcision was everlasting and if Paul and God seems to contradict, I'll choose God every time.

>>18726420
>Also, God said the covenant of circumcision was everlasting and if Paul and God seems to contradict, I'll choose God every time.

Anon, circumcision for Israelite men to be a part of God's people. We no longer need to circumcise to be a part of God's people as you become a Christian by being baptized. The disciples had a huge debate on this in Acts before Peter made the final ruling that it was not necessary.

On the Sabbath, Jesus was busy running around performing miracles on Saturdays. That's a pretty clear flag that no one gives about keeping the Sabbath anymore. But if you want the biblical argument:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGRg0VI5Sb0

>>18726452
Above all, remember that Christians of old were gungho about studying every aspect of the bible and AVOIDING HELL AND ENTERING THE KINGDOM OF GOD. If there's a reason why we don't do "X", at least investigate how this practice came to be. We went from a dude getting stoned on the Sabbath to now worshiping on Sundays. I'm suspicious of the Catholic Church and think there are some practices that will certainly drive people to hell that they're enabling, but if it was a requirement to get to heaven, you'd think they'd blast their horns on going to Mass on Saturday or avoiding shrimp.

>>18726452
Not necessary is one thing. Paul goes to the extreme and says it is forbidden to do. If as a Christian you ever do circumcision Paul says you're going to hell because Christ will be of no use to you. Does this mean 90% of American Christians are damned?
>On the Sabbath, Jesus was busy running around performing miracles on Saturdays

Yet God personally ordered a man be stoned to death because he was picking up wood on a Sabbath.

I rather fear that God and do what he commands.

If I didn't have to keep it but did, then no biggie. But if I did had to keep it and I didn't then I'll be fucked. I rather not risk being fucked.

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>>18725506
>Using the traditional Sunday as a day of worship is just as good as any other
He was clearly wrong about this though. Christians are still bound to observe the Sabbath (literally the 4th commandment), only the Christian Sabbath is the Lord’s Day.

>>18725507
>This is a problem with sola scriptura. I concede this as a protestant
I do not, I don’t even know what the “problem” with sola scriptura is supposed to be here

>>18725715
The only group that has Enoch as canon is an Orthodox offshoot

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>>18726611
>>18725715

>>18726609
Resting on the first day of the week and then working the other six days makes no logical sense. You work first, then you rest.

>>18726420
>Circumcisuon is the Mosaic law. The Sabbath is the 10 commandments.
Who received the 10 commandments?
>And among those the Sabbath could have been included
Not in the Bible
>and if Paul and God seems to contradict, I'll choose God every time.
And thus the Judaizer is revealed

>>18726762
>And thus the Judaizer is revealed
So you would choose Paul over God?

>Who received the 10 commandments?
The Sons of God.

>Not in the Bible
The Sabbath still preceeds the law and I doubt God did not made Adam aware of it. Even if he didn't, the Sabbath never stopped being holy.

>>18726923
Paul and God are in no contradiction, if you doubt the law is fulfilled you can hear it from Christ’s mouth.
>The Sons of God.
You worship the Jews?
>The Sabbath still preceeds the law
So why was it necessary to reveal it to Moses if Moses and all the Jews already knew about it?

>>18726925
God said circumcision is forever. Paul said circumcision has ended.
God said if you keep the law you're blessed and if you abandon it you're cursed. Jesus said the law will last for as long as heaven and earth exist. Paul said if you try to keep the law you're cursed and if you abandon it you're saved.

>You worship the Jews?
No.

>So why was it necessary to reveal it to Moses if Moses and all the Jews already knew about it?
He didn't reveal it. He told him to remember the Sabbath that was created since the beginning of the world.

Israel already knew murder, theft and adultery were sins, yet God still commanded them not to murder, steal or adulter. He was revealing it to them, he was putting it in writing binding under a covenant.

>>18726723
It makes sense if you follow it through from the premise that God is the one who gets to decide these things and not you.

>>18727000
>He was revealing it to them
Wasn't*

>>18727005
He already decided it since the very beginning of time. It was literally the very first thing he did right after he finished creating the world. Genesis 2:2

>>18726925
>So why was it necessary to reveal it to Moses if Moses and all the Jews already knew about it?
Why was it necessary to tell them not to worship images or kill people?

>>18727014
He has the authority to move the chosen day if He so desires. Mark 2:28

>>18727000
Jesus fulfilled the law. With the son of man it is complete. This is not abandoning the law, it is accepting the grace of Christ.
> He told him to remember the Sabbath that was created since the beginning of the world.
And yet anyone observing Shabbat is mentioned absolutely nowhere in the Bible before God delivers the Mosaic law. He does not mention it in his covenant with Noah, he does not mention it in his covenant with Abraham. If they already knew about the sabbath, and it was important to remind Moses to remember it, why didn't he demand this of Noah or Abraham?

that or he was being a lying fuck

>>18727017
Probably because they just witnessed God kill thousands of people a short while earlier and God already knew that at that very moment while Moses is on the mountain the Israelites are down there worshipping a golden calf.

>>18727023
Yet nowhere does it says he did. Instead Jesus said not a dot will be changed from the law until the end.

>>18727034
Why was it important to remind Moses that murder and adultery is bad? Did he not know that before the law?

>Jesus fulfilled the law.
If you won't dare to post the next two verses that follow Jesus saying he came to fulfill the law then you're dishonest and twisting scriptures out of context.

>>18727053
The apostolic practice was worship on the Lord’s Day.

>>18727053
In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus himself immediately begins elucidating his new law for the new covenant. How do you square your judaising interpretation with that one?

>>18727056
God commanded his servants to rest on the seventh day and not do any unholy things on it.

>>18727058
My loyalty is to God first, God second and God third.

>>18727036
>he was being a lying fuck
The idea that insular Jews in central europe became missionaries just seems to have no evidence nor does it make sense for said Jews. I err on the side that he knew it was horseshit and was trying to cope

>>18725492
No.
>they said themselves they had reached their conclusions through sola scriptura
Who cares? People claim all sorts of retarded doctrines based on their bad readings of the Bible. Saabbatarianism is a TRASH reading, because it is directly contradicted by the clear teaching of Colossians 2:
>And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
>Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
>And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
>Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
>Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Enjoy burning.

>>18727114
The command was to rest on the seventh day after six of labor. This equally applies to the Lord’s Day, which is preceded by 6 days of labor from monday to saturday (in fact, the ancient Christians called it “the 8th day”)

>>18727336
why did he choose to dedicate so much text to imaginary Jewish preachers brainwashing the anabaptists?

>>18727381
Like there was back and forth with clean scriptural debates with their leaders a while, for sure, then he went completely off the rails with the conspiracy for why they were doing this heresy

>>18727361
The same people who changed the Sabbath day for the Lord's day made sure to leave the weekdays intact so that Sundays were still shown as the first day of the week in their calendar to show that it was actually a rebellion against the laws of God because they hate Judah so much they don't want to associate with anything "Judaizing"

They didn't change the first day to the last day, they deliberately rest on the first day, on purpose. And they force the while western world to close shops on Sunday.

>>18727410
>And they force the while western world to close shops on Sunday.
What third world shithole do you live in?

>>18727255
or maybe jews do actually poison wells and you're a sanctimonious kike rat.

>makes papists seethe
>makes atheists seethe
>makes jews seethe
how does /ourguy/ do it?

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>>18727441
The Vatican has lost most of its power today but 50 years ago no business would open on a Sunday. Yet Banks and Governments still close on Sundays today despite being the first day of the week because they submit to Rome. See picrel.

And many business establishments have instead of fully closing on Sundays adopted the practice of opening late and closing early on Sundays. This is all because of the Empire of the Holy See.

>>18725492

>>18725507
Become Orthodox then. No sola scriptura, no “scripture” distinct from “tradition”, only Sacred Tradition inherited from the Fathers. No Rome, no pope. And unlike the majority of Christianity where people want to larp as suffering for their faith, they were actually persecuted heavily in many ways historically, still are in many places, and still have the generational trauma, which is why their churches are often ethnic enclaves.

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>>18729559
Instead you guys have the drinking of foot water from the dead.

>>18726480
>Not necessary is one thing. Paul goes to the extreme and says it is forbidden to do. If as a Christian you ever do circumcision Paul says you're going to hell because Christ will be of no use to you. Does this mean 90% of American Christians are damned?
You can repent and be forgiven. There are practically unforgivable sins like remarriage. Circumcising isn't one of them. And regarding the Sabbath, refer to >>18726459 and apply a bit of charity and learn why people don't follow the Sabbath anymore. The bible has been read to death, translated to death, with missionaries creating written languages to transcribe the bible to death in other languages. If it was known that the Sabbath had to be observed in the New covenant, where was it stated? Why didn't the disciples discuss the necessity of abiding by the Sabbath instead of meeting on Sunday, the Lord's day?

>>18729610
I just got to the part in 2 Kings where Elisha died. Some guy fell into his tomb and touched his bones and instantly healed all his wounds. This is where the veneration of saints and honoring of relics come from. And incidentally, you can extend this to why Jesus' body had to have ascended back to heaven. If he left his body here, it would have contracted the medical field.

>>18729639
....And then the high priest dug Elisha's and hacked him in pieces and used his body parts to make matic healing potions.... Oh wait...

>>18729632
>If it was known that the Sabbath had to be observed in the New covenant, where was it stated?

Matthew 5:19
>Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Sabbath is the 4th command and you're setting it aside.

>>18729644
So this is what Catholics/Orthodox do with venerated saints; because their bodies are holy, they treat the "relics" (body parts) as such to heal others.

>>18729651
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGRg0VI5Sb0

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>>18729652
Desecrate the bodies of the saints? There's a reason the Israelites left the body of Elisha to rest in his tomb despite knowing touching it could revie a dead man.

>>18729655
Your name is least.

This >>>18729651 are the words of Jesus himself who you claim to worship but you rather listen to anyone but him.

Sabbaths are holy. You must not desecrate the holy day by doing as you please in it.

>>18729639
>If he left his body here, it would have contracted the medical field.
This heresy is so spiritually diseased that it thinks Christ rose and ascended, not to conquer sin and death, not to intercede before the Father for the elect, but for magical and worldly reasons

>>18726480
>If as a Christian you ever do circumcision Paul says you're going to hell because Christ will be of no use to you. Does this mean 90% of American Christians are damned?
This is a strawman argument. Paul is not saying that circumcision causes damnation (he himself is circumcised obviously), it is “those who rely on works of the law” that are under a curse. Heretics preaching works salvation (like yourself) are doomed, because you cannot simultaneously trust in your own works and the works of Christ. Christ will be of no benefit to you, either you will be justified by faith alone or not by faith at all.
>If I didn't have to keep it but did, then no biggie. But if I did had to keep it and I didn't then I'll be fucked. I rather not risk being fucked.
You can’t hedge your bets actually. If you rely on works of the law, Christ will be of no benefit to you. You are bound to keep the whole law perfectly, and if you do not, you are under a curse, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to do them.” You can either throw yourself at the mercy of Christ, or perish in your sins.

>>18729691
>trust in your own works
I am not trusting in my own work, Jesus said to keep the comandments of the law until heaven and earth pass away.

>>18729706
You denied relying on your own works before twisting the words of Christ to justify relying on your own works.

>>18729708
You will be called least in heaven.

>>18729711
You will not be in heaven.

>>18729716
Sorry. God already personally promised. You will inherit my holy mountain he said to me at 3 am. I swear by his name.

>>18729722
>casually takes the Lord’s name in vain
Heretics that preach works righteousness are typically the most ungodly in character, because they are unregenerate.

>>18729727
Deuteronomy 6:13
>You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name.

Deuteronomy 10:20
>You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him, and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name.

You should take the time to get to know God and understand who he is.

>>18729739
Exodus 20:7

>>18729744
Take the name in vain is swearing when it's a lie. I am not lying which I why I dare swear by his name.

>>18729747
Not only are you lying, you’re putting words in God’s mouth which He did not say.

>>18729759
Whatever you say Least.

Wow, you guys are really disconnected from reality. Guess that's what you get when you get your understanding from what a translator says (not an interpreter). Everyone in the church is either greek or latin based, they dont really "get" the old testament or what meaning it conveys.

The sabbath is not only a day, it is a manifestation of the law "love god above all things, love thy neighbor such as yourself", thats why its meaning is repeated on the year of the sabbath where fields are not reaped and everyone can eat and it is also the year of forgiveness of debts, it implies a meaning connected to the number 7 and everywhere it appears, the meaning is associated to it.

It is retarded to say that because you dont physically circumcise then you dont need to keep the sabbath... are you kidding?. The bible is the book of the nomads, thus they remember the world before empires.

You guys are retarded and thw level of conversation seriously gives mw second hand embarrassment

>>18730445
>It is retarded to say that because you dont physically circumcise then you dont need to keep the sabbath... are you kidding?.
Theres a reason jesus is asked "should I forgive seven times?" And he says seventy times 7. The law is not something written in stone, it is something to be interpreted with discernment.

Is the law being applied with leaven bread such as the sacrifice of animals for the healing of lepers? Is it being applied when you treat a man as your neighbor but not a woman or a child? It is as simple as that

>>18725492
>>18725506
>>18725507
>>18725513
>>18727336
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shOiFeZ5iZ4

>>18731722
>>>/x/
Your brain is completely worthless. Do keep listening to demons.

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>>18730458
>The law is not something written in stone
The Finger Of God is Enoch. God's personal scribe. He wrote the law in stone and gave it to Moses.

>>18731744
>Your brain is completely worthless. Do keep listening to demons.

The man in the video explains the history of both Reform Church and Roman Catholic Church.

If you're Reform/Protestant, I suggest you endure watching it all the way.

There's nothing wrong that the Templars/Reform movement were the precursors of the Jacobins/Republicans.

>>18731757
>If you're Reform/Protestant, I suggest you endure watching it all the way.
That's not going to happen. Enjoy Hell.