Indo-Iranians and the Baltic Slavs must have been neighbors for a long period and spoke a common language. Lithuanian is a peripheral language and has preserved archaisms strangely similar to those of Sanskrit. Two extreme peripheries of the same proto-language.
>>18727537I've written in some previous posts here about "Indo-Slavic," but I focused mainly on genetic aspects, particularly the close relationship between the Balto-Slavic uniparental clades Z280 and M458, both descended from R-Z645, to which R-Z283 and the Indo-Iranian R-Z93 clade of R1a belong. I didn't focus much on the linguistic side.Recently, I was reading Palmér's article and found some very interesting and useful information. Not long ago, it was said that most of the parallels between Sanskrit and Lithuanian came from "Scythians" or via Slavs influenced by Scythians, so the Iranian group should have shown the strongest links with Balto-Slavic.But that argument is weak. The data show that Indo-Aryan shares more isoglosses with Balto-Slavic than Iranian does. That's very unique. I think you should have specified that in the statement. Many of these innovations are shared, not mere loanwords, and there was never any ancient Indo-Aryan–Balto-Slavic contact to explain them. In fact, some of these shared innovations are closer to Indo-Aryan / found only in Indic and Balto-Slavic languages, with no Iranian cognate. What could this imply? found only in Indic and Balto-Slavic with no Iranic cognate.
>>18727558
>>18727537Guess why Sanskrit is so important for Indo Europeanists that they want to claim it came from Europe?
>>18727558>>18727537Nah its just coincidence at mostBaltic myths show no particular bent toward the Iranic. It's very neutral, common IE presence in just 2 branches means that a coincidental match is also possible.
>>18727561>Indo EuropeanistsYou're not going to ruin another thread. This isn't the place for you.>>18727569>coincidenceCoincidence? The exclusive isoglosses shared between both branches? The word here would hardly be "coincidence." In fact, Baltic mythology is very poorly understood. We don't know much about it, and most of the material isn't academic anyway. Baltic folk songs did not receive the attention they deserved, even though their importance was recognized. We have already discussed the possibility of the existence of a deity called "Indraja", which in mythology refers primarily to a celestial or planetary figure in the Lithuanian tradition. But it seems vague and suspicious
>>18727558>Indo-SlavicRejected by serious linguists.
>>18727537Sure, all hypotheses are welcome, even schizophrenic ones like Baltic being related to a magical family spoken in Russia that is ancestral to Sanskrit, but one should never dare to even suppose that Proto-IE could have come from India, right? No, no. That's too much. The idea that Sanskrit is the language that preserves more archaisms than the supposedly oldest Baltic languages can also be ignored.
>>18727606Sanskrit is old, that's why, out of india is wrong because where is the aasi admixture in europe and places like armenia, turkey, most of iran
>>18727537I kean from intuition they're both on the satem side of IE languages so most likely they just share the same stem along their evolution.The borrowings from Iranian languages are often abstract concepts that adopted name of Indo-Iranian deities to portrat them. For instance, I'll use Polish here, bogactwo and Bóg are supposedly related to Bhaga, in some Slavic languages the word drażnić has much heavier meaning than in Polish(in polish its "to annoy" but it's equivalent in russian iirc means an actual violent conflict) and that's supposed to be ethnologically derived from Indra according to some scholars.Most likely what we're dealing with is:1. They come from the same sub-branch coming out if proto-ie, the one that satemised2. They later influenced each other to some extent in a context we don't exactly know anymore(there is some weird influence of the steppe on slavs who live beyond it, like some Polish and Czech heraldry is derived from tamgas etc)
Shared innovations are scarce between Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian, highlighting their conservative nature. The majority of correspondences between Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian are archaisms, not innovations.
>>18727617>and that's supposed to be ethnologically derived from Indra according to some scholars.Not really
>>18727537Ašvieniai and Ashvins
>>18729350This
>>18727537https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt3KppJNDtE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YwrI5SlS8Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM2KD08JSSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQa3NAuOI28
why hasn't r1a m417 been found in yamnaya contexts
>>18730204What does one thing have to do with the other, genius?
>>18730204It's not the first time I see this question. Is it a new sort of hindu copium?>R1a-M417 Origin and Expansion>Parent Lineage: Descends from R1a-M198.>Archaeological Association: Strongly linked to the expansion of the Corded Ware horizon and Eneolithic/Bronze Age steppe cultures (such as Sredny Stog, Fatyanovo, and Sintashta).>Major Split Branches:>R-Z282 / R-Z283: Spread westward and northward into Europe, forming the primary paternal foundation for Balto-Slavic and Germanic-adjacent populations.>R-Z93: Spread eastward and southward into Central Asia, Siberia, and South Asia, becoming the major signature of Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan populations.
so corded ware isn't a yamnaya offshoot
There is the satem centum theory though tocharian makes this theory a lot more difficult because it seems to be a centum language. Ironically enough the romance languages (the languages derived from latin) had a sound change that resembles the satem sound change a bit.
>>18730512Corded Ware is more like Yamnaya's sister. They both developed from Sredniy Stog.
>>18730550>tocharian makes this theory a lot more difficult because it seems to be a centum languageHow exactly?>Ironically enough the romance languages (the languages derived from latin) had a sound change that resembles the satemThere's nothing ironic, it's a common sound shift called palatalization.
>>18730560>How exactly?It was spoken east of the satem areas despite being a centum language.
>>18730565What if satemization happened to the central dialects of PIE?
>>18730569NTA,Satemization looks like something that can happen independently in various branches because a chain shift allows the contrast between the velars to be maintained. Although it's also the case that Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian probably satemized together because these branches seem related enough for that to be likely.
>>18727537The PLC's nobility's clothing was heavily inspired by Persia.
>>18731163It's funny that literally none of that shit has anything to do with Sarmatians or steppe Iranics, who wielded straight swords.
>>18730512I've already refuted you 20 times. I wouldn't mind doing it again, but why are you so homosexual that you're desperate to get my attention? Why didn't you answer me in that thread? Did you disappear out of fear and run away?
1. L51 in Yamnaya:- BY44535 FT123498 under P310/L52 parallel to L151 = in Yamnaya- Lazaridis: I11838 Krasnosamarskoe-4 Volga, I12823 Smeeni RO (Catacomb?), I6884 Krestovyi Rostov, I12893 Idzhil-2 Kalmykia, all L51- I20499 L52/P310 Zabalj-Medisova-humka 2880-2633 BC = L51 common- Oldest: SHT001 Afanasievo Shatar Chuluu 3112-2918 BCE, P310/L51, non-Z2103 L23, early Yamnaya grave 3333-3028 BC.2. Earliest CWC = L151 Yamnaya-like:- Oldest CWC = R-L151. Papac PNL001 U106 + OBR003 Bohemia_CW_Early, born in CWC-X, identical to Yamnaya- Ringbauer 2023 ancIBD: first CWC share 12-25cM long IBD with Yamnaya = few hundred years bottleneck, Yamnaya main source. 3. Archaeology:- Hubinek/Srednia SE Poland CWC-X: red ochre, back + raised knees, knees fell aside = Yamnaya rite- Yamnaya/Budziak kurgans in Central Europe4. Chronological time:- Yamnaya Malopolska > CWC-X 3000-2900 > classic CWC 2800-2600 > Middle Dnieper/Catacomb 2600-2550 > BB 2400-2250- Phase I CWC-X = R1b-L151 dominated, not R1a-M417. Yamnaya > Malopolska > X > classic CWC L151 (U106/P312) > BBThis isn't a thread about your homosexual obsession with me and Corded Ware, but I'll be here to constantly put you down. The OP isn't talking about Corded Ware. You lost, again.
>>18730554Yeah which makes no sense, but for some reason no one ever takes it seriously.Wagons appear on the steppe around 3300BC leading to the eastern formation of Yamnaya, which develops fully mobile nomadic pastoralism, with no sedentary settlements, no traces at all except kurgan burials. The idea is that this lifestyle was so brutal and transformative for Yamnaya, both physically - they have the highest selection for height of any culture ever recorded - and culturally - the birth of Indo-European patron-client religion, tripartition, and Xenia is supposed to originate from the culture of cattle rustling on the open steppe, and the Indo-European young male warband is supposed to originate in horse domestication, wild horses are the original species to have young male bands that live on the edge of society.This all happened on the eastern steppe. Then we learn in 2015 that it was the culture on the western steppe, Corded Ware, who used the wagons to cross over into forested temperate Europe, not to continue living on the open steppe, around 3100BC, thus escaping the Yamnaya rampage that erased every other culture. It was this temperate forested culture that was so reproductively successful, that gave rise to Rome and Germany and the Indo-Aryans and Vedic and Britain.Doesn't anyone find this confusing??? Why wasn't it the pure steppe chads? Why was it the half-steppe, half-forest guys? When the descendants of Corded Ware encountered the descendants of Yamnaya on the steppe in 2000BC, why did CW win?
>>18731785Yamnaya is not the source for CW
>>18731785>We find that the first individuals in Central and Northern Europe carrying high amounts of Steppe-ancestry, associated with the Corded Ware culture, share high rates of long IBD (12-25 cM) with Yamnaya herders of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, signaling a strong bottleneck and a recent biological connection on the order of only few hundred years, providing evidence that the Yamnaya themselves are a main source of SteppeAs proven more than 10 times this month, Yamnaya is indeed the direct ancestor of Corded Ware, and this is supported by both archaeology and genetics. And the question of haplogroups has been answered. homosexuals talking to themselves and desperate for my attention have failed miserably and will continue to fail. There is clear evidence of Budziak Yamnaya graves in the central European area. the Lazaridis et al. preprint "The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans". four R1b-L51 samples were found in the Yamnaya steppe pastoralist culture: I11838, I12823, I6884 and I12893.
>>18731794I accept the concession as I have done all other times. You've already been answered properly by me several times, and every time, I get no response. Admit your defeat and say, "I was wrong." No one will make fun of you for that; I appreciate people's humility. But I'll be honest with you, I only respond because you're apparently obsessed with me and have certainly learned a lot from me, even while insulting me, haha. You weren't even discussing IBD after I educated you on this subject, and you were completely oblivious to several studies and archaeological data that you now vehemently deny. You're a curious person, but quite unbalanced. And I repeat: I've already answered you, and there are no more answers. Keep copying the same thing and calling me autistic if you want, but nothing will change. PS: I didn't read your post and I don't intend to. We're talking about Indo-Aryans here. I wish you a good night and don't overdo it with the medication. You've learned so much from me that you're copying and pasting my posts as if they were your own. That's a compliment, I appreciate it. But try learning for yourself. And single-parent families aren't your thing, stop trying to be intellectual.
>>18731798>the Lazaridis et al. preprint "The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans"preprint? It came out in 2025 and everyone knows that paper, why are you talking about it like it's new lmfao> four R1b-L51 samples were found in the Yamnaya steppe pastoralist culture: I11838, I12823, I6884 and I12893this doesn't indicate L151 originated in Yamnaya, it just indicates Yamnaya and Bell Beaker have a common ancestor.
>>18731801see >>18731806you're making the simple mistake of confusing the common ancestor relationship for linear descent. L151 could have diverged elsewhere from these particular Yamnaya (one is actually Catacomb) communities centuries earlier. We just know that these Yamnaya L51s and Bell Beaker L151s share a common ancestor.
Also, since this thread has become a personal diary for people who are so strange that they talk to themselves and copy arguments from other people due to neediness or perhaps platonic homosexuality towards me, I believe I can post some interesting things I've discovered lately.Unlike what some users here say, the oldest Corded Ware finds are already 100% Central European, so they didn't appear out of nowhere or come from Neverland. They necessarily had to be preceded by kurgans with a purely Eastern character.And these precursor kurgans in question are the direct westward expansion of Late Eneolithic steppe/forest-steppe groups – *Zhivotilovka-Volchansk, Gordinești and early Yamnaya* – that advanced from the Pontic zone into Podolia and Volhynia in western Ukraine. This is the missing "link" that appeared in the kurgans excavated at *Yampil, in Ukrainian Podolia*, which show this bridge. Sredny Stog is not necessary here.That's why southeastern Poland is so important, and I always reiterate this as soon as I arrive. It has over 400 CWC tombs with rituals clearly linked to the Pontic steppe north of the Black Sea, with good skeletal preservation for DNA. It's the geographical link – the loess plateau has no eastern border, continuing straight into Ukraine – that connects *Yamnaya > CWC-X horizon (3000-2900) > classic CWC-A (2900-2700)*.https://www.academia.edu/75099188/Eastern_impulses_in_cultural_and_demographic_change_during_the_end_of_the_south_eastern_Polish_Eneolithic pag 437
>>18731823But as I always say, archaeology and genetics are a luxury for the few. But it's a fact that there's no way to ignore the four Yamnaya samples co R1b-L151 and desperately try to separate Corded Ware from the steppe. The expansion of the steppe is what creates the CWC. Why does this bother you so much? After the initial layer, comes the early Yamnaya in 3100-3000 BC in Yampil and Upper Prut, this culture occupies Podolia and Volhynia before the CWC. Yamnaya was already in parts of western Ukraine at a very early time. The Kurgan CWC of Podolia and Volhynia only emerges later, around 2800 BC, and it is already born with typical steppe traits. 1) Early steppe type pottery and ritual with ochre on the skeleton and 2) Corpses at the bottom of the pit. Classic Yamnaya signatures. It's really necessary to focus only on distorted arguments about R1a-M417 when archaeology doesn't support your preconceived views.In southeastern Poland, this connection appears in two basic ways: 1) the *Złota with catacomb* type cemeteries, which come from the contact of the GAC with the Yamnaya in the Middle Dniester, and the 2) Hubinek kurgan of 2011*, on the edge of Volhynia. It is the first "barrow" with a pure steppe feature excavated in Polish soil, in two phases with a small mound over grave 9. It is physical proof of *CWC-X = Yamnaya > CWC*. It's truly a shame to deny all of this.L51 didn't originate in the west. The stem *L23 > L51/P310 > L52 > L151* was already in the steppe/Yamnaya/Afanasievo between 3300-3100 BC. It migrated along with the initial Yamnaya and then exploded in the western CWC. That's why we find L51 in Kalmykia, Volga, Rostov, and only later in Smeeni and Zabalj. It's genetic proof of what the Hubinek/Yampil archaeological text was showing: Yamnaya > CWC-X > CWC.
>>18731841>the four Yamnaya samples co R1b-L151they're L51, not L151
ironically the L23 common ancestor that you're so obsessed with probably lived in early Sredny Stog lol
>>18727537>The Aryans in the Avesta are tall, light-skinned people with light hair; their women were light-eyed, with long, light tresses... In the Rigveda light skin alongside language is the main feature of the Aryans, differentiating them from the aboriginal Dáśa-Dasyu population who were a dark-skinned, small people speaking another language and who did not believe in the Vedic gods... Skin color was the basis of social division of the Vedic Aryans; their society was divided into social groups varṇa, literally 'color'. The varṇas of Aryan priests (brāhmaṇa) and warriors (kṣatriyaḥ or rājanya) were opposed to the varṇas of the aboriginal Dáśa, called 'black-skinned'...
Włodarczak and Linderholm consider Hubinek and the Małopolska site as representative of the transition from Yamnaya pottery to Corded pottery. See page 15 onwards for more details.>The three older burials (nos. 4, 8 and 9) [at Hubinek] present ritual characteristics of the Yamnaya culture (Fig. 3).They were coloured with ochre and laid without equipment. The position of the deceased is also characteristic: on the back with bent lower limbs and the knees originally pointing upwards. These three burials were discovered in irregularly rectangular pits of medium depth. Traces of wooden constructions were found in them.Based on a series of five 14C analyses, graves nos. 4, 8 and 9 are dated to around 3000 BC.Now, going back to the OP's thread, From what I understand, Centum/satem is just one isogloss among many. Correct? I think it would be logical to assume that it probably happened AFTER Anatolius and Tocharius had already separated from the rest. Did satemization occur within Anatolian itself? I'm not against the idea of using centum/satem as the basic division of the daughter branches, but I think it doesn't serve as well as we like to think. I've come to the conclusion that satemization was probably an area phenomenon, not a "trunk" phenomenon. It spread from east to west, entering both the CWC and Yamnaya areas.
>>18731864It's super obvious that the division between centum and satem may not be so definitive in linguistic terms but I understand what you meant. What linguists say is the curious geographical correlation between centum and the western and eastern regions. I think it's undeniable and probably related to the moment of westward migration.
>>18731864>Did satemization occur within Anatolian itself?No.
>>18731864>>18731868languages are an areal grouping. Graeco-Armeno-Aryan, which appears to be the last group of languages to split from each other, includes centum Greek, satem Indo-Aryan, and almost-but-not-quite-completely satem Armenian
>>18731876>Graeco-Armeno-AryanNot a real thing tho
>>18731877Cope
>>18731864>Did satemization occur within Anatolian itself?Yes, Luwian palatalized inherited palatovelars in situations without any particular secondary cause for palatalization. Satemization is fully capable of happening spontaneously and independently without areal influence. Satemization by itself is not a feature that can be used to diagnose relatedness of branches.
