Why didn't islam ever have a protestant movement? Quite a lot of modern islam is not mentioned in the quran at allThe hadiths were all written hundreds of years later after muhammed and his companions so their authenticity cannot be verified.
They didn't invent the Printing Press, which helped to democratize information in Europe from a grassroots position. Arab countries obviously did get printed media, but not until somewhat later, and by that point there was no chance for it to get to the hands of plebians without having gone through heavy administrative scrutiny/censorship
>>18737021>The hadiths were all written hundreds of years later after muhammed and his companions so their authenticity cannot be verified.These arnt comparable. do protties just think Martin Luther was some 1800s restorationists that abandoned every single Church tradition and history?
>>18737021Sunni Islam does not have a rigid hierarchy as Catholic church and there are different schools which interpret the Quran and hadith in different ways. This allows muslims a lot of flexibility. I know muslims who have dogs in their house because they hold to the malik interpretation of certain hadiths. Others wouldn't go near dogs because they view them as impure.Majority of Muslims are not Arabic. Anyone who reads a translation of the Quran, is told it is not the real Quran. A lot of the serious scholarship in Islam, is only in arabic. Meaning a lot of muslims must go through authority figures to get info, so its fairly easy for authority figures to keep orthodoxy in tact.
>>18737030>Anyone who reads a translation of the Quran, is told it is not the real Quran.That's because Islam in its inception (by that I don't mean the Rashidun but the Umayyad) was an Arab supremacist movement. Nothing wrong with that but that is the historical truth. Non-Arab Muslims had to always play second fiddle to Arabs until madlad Selim said fuck that and Turkified it
>>18737026The Arabic language is convoluted and over-complicated shit, it's completely unsuited for the modern world.
Technically Islam is like Protestantism now because the caliphate system collapsed and you can have different schools of theology and there is no doctrinal unity or unity of faith.An Islamic preacher can start his own sect and deny some things while some other imam in another mosque next to his says completely different things. And extremely heretical Islamic pearchers are branded as shirk and are put to death.
>>18737027How are they not comparable?
>>18737021They did it's called Wahhabism. And to be clear Islam is barely functional without the Hadith.>>18737027A stunning amount of people think the Reformation just made Christianity less stupid or something, I have no idea why.
>>18737026It is not the same. People used to memorize the quran since muhamad era, so it didn't matter if people couldn't read those times. If a lot of people memorize the sacred text, scribes were not able to change anything.>>18737035Theologically is okey that traslations are not view as equal as the original one. Because a traduction in every aspect is only an aproximation of the original meaning in the original language. It becames more relevant if we consider that the quran is consider by muslims as the literally God's word.
>>18737072holy ESL>traductionspic
>>18737075Kys faggot.
>>18737021What do you think Salafism is?
>>18737082It still relies on hadiths
>>18737021It makes no sense to reject the hadith corpus wholesale
>>18737049Because the Protestants still generally follow everything established by the Church fathers>original sin>trinityLuther himself still venerated Mary.I dont know anything about the goat fucker religion, but it sounds like the saying "why follow the Haddiths" is like saying "why follow the Church fathers" which isnt protestantism, but restorationism.
>>18737072I get that. The Turks did not change the Quran, they just cvcked the arabs out of the Caliphate, which was both a political and a religious institution as you know. They took over the interpretation of the Quran and Hadiths and fully embraced Hanafism because it was the best fiqh for empire building. But they didn't stop there. They sponsored all kinds of Sufi sects, the Bektashi (Janissary sect) being one of the most prominent. Again, the aim was governance not religious piety.As for your point regarding translations, it may have to do with the fact that it's much harder to translate poetry than prose. Add to that the religious taboo (not exclusive to Islam) and the picture becomes complete.
>>18737087How so? the hadiths were all compiled by a collection of random dudes many hundred of years later based on information given to them by other random dudes who swear they heard their great-great-great-grandfather who personally knew muhammed say that he liked wearing orange colored socks or something
>>18737091Yes. Arabs became irrelevant since the fall of Bagdad, and even more since the rise of otoman empire (turkified anatolian greeks)But the language of the daily prayers and everything related to the quran remained the original arabic. The fact that muslims believe the quran is the literally God's word and the enormeous number of illiterate people who memorized the whole quran blocked every attempt to modify the book.
>>18737094Even secular historians can trace individual reports further back in time than when it was collected using their own methodologies like ICMA. Sometimes even to the companion himself. That being said Bukhari and Muslim aren't even the oldest hadith collections. As for your main point this assumes that the earliest Muslims absolutely did not give a damn about what the prophet spoke beside the Quran. As if he was just a mailman who had zero authority. This isn't what history shows us at all. In fact the numerous reports from all sorts of regions that exist do tell us that they were valued and there is no reason to assume that this wasn't always the case.
>>18737688Again this is just muzzie cope.Theres no way to verify they're real since and since the quran is the final and entire revelation of god anything that isn't included there is by definition not sunnah.
>>18738678why do weird christkeks like you even pretend to know what these words mean? I've never seen a muslim argue for the prottie position
>>18738685Stop projecting your own retardation.
>>18738694You haven't answered my question, try again
>>18738701What question?
>>18738703>why do weird christkeks like you even pretend to know what these words mean?
>>18738685> I've never seen a muslim argue for the prottie positionThats because muzzies can't, islam would barely function without the hadiths.Only adhering to the quran would basically create a new religion
>>18738711I dont know go ask a "christkek"
>>18738712No it's because sola scriptura autism makes zero sense. Especially for a Christian
>>18737021Jews had bigger ichthys to fry
>>18738716I am asking one now
>>18737021salafis and wahhabis
>>18738723Then who the hell are you talking to?
>>18738725Do you not see the (You) next to your post number?
>>18738718It makes perfect sense especially for pisslam as unlike the bible it's not a collection of dozens different works from created by innemorous different authors.If muzzies believe the quran is a complete revelation of everything by god to muhammed then on what basis can you claim things not included or mentioned in the quran as being sunnah?
>>18738731I do which is why im wondering who you're talking to when you talk about christkeks
>>18738736>Sunnah is the body of traditions and practices of the Islamic prophet Muhammad that constitute a model for Muslims to follow. For Muslims, the sunnah is what all the Muslims of Muhammad's time supposedly saw, followed, and passed on to the next generations.[1][2]>According to classical Islamic theories,[6] the sunnah is primarily documented by hadith—which are the verbally-transmitted record of the teachings, actions, deeds, sayings, and silent approvals or disapprovals attributed to Muhammad—and alongside the Qur'an (the book of Islam) are the divine revelation (wahy) delivered through Muhammad[6] that make up the primary sources of Islamic law, beliefs, and theology.[7][8] The sunnah is classified into different types based on Muhammad's actions: his specific words (Sunnah Qawliyyah), his actions such as habits and practices (Sunnah Fiiliyyah), and silent approvals (Sunnah Taqririyyah).[9]The Quran is not a biography of Muhammad
>>18738740I am talking to (You) and you're a christkek. Hope that helps!
>>18738749No i'm not.I'm sorry you had to invent a fictisiois person in yout head to argue with.But im guessing they're not the only fictious person you've made up.
>>18738752There's no point denying it. And anyway if you were being honest you'd say what you are instead
>>18738746So the sunnah isn't in the quran? Muzzies believe in the infallibility of the quran because they believe its the word of god but they also believe in the infallibility of random texts and traditions that cannot be actually verified?Islam was more retarded than i thought.I guess i gave it more credit than they deserve
>>18738755Oh i'm an atheist i don't believe in semitic fairytales.
>>18738758>Historically, in pre-Islamic Arabia, the term sunnah referred to 'manner of acting', (Urf) whether good or bad[14] and recording of it was also an Arab tradition.[15] Later, "good traditions" began to be referred to as sunnah and the concept of "Muhammad's sunnah" was established.[14] During the early Islamic period, it included precedents set by both Muhammad,[14] and his companions.[7][16]Maybe learn what the word means before spewing your nonsense. Your quranist retards specifically reject the sunnah btw>The Quranist stance on the Sunnah varies from outright rejection to an approach that considers external sources as secondary and dependent on the Qur'an for verification.[13]
>>18738761Why would an atheist talk about anything being the "final and entire revelation of god"
>>18738766>Your quranist retards specifically reject the sunnah btwThey're less retarded than most muslims im assuming since they don't take the unverified words of randos as authority on how the followers of gods should behave instead of the actual word of god
>>18738774You didn't even know what sunnah meant and you think your baseless opinions matter here?
>>18738758>>18738746>>18738678>>18737688>>18737094The quran says that muslims have to follow the sunna. You are te one who think hadith=sunna.Sunna is the tradition, hadith is some written record of what the prophet supposedly said or did.For example the 5 daily prayers and how to do it is sunna.The hadith about Moses running naked is not sunna.
>>18738771You should brush up on your reading comprehension.
reformation was just birth of german ethno-religion, if there was such a clean binary ethnic+geographic divide in the muslim world as there was in europe then there would have been a reformation
>>18738784No i didnt now i do know.And i see its even more retarded than i thought.Also noticed how you can't actually argue against my point.
>>18738785Okay then where is it if we can't use written records?>For example the 5 daily prayers and how to do it is sunna.find a source outside of the hadith that explains this
>>18738787maybe you shouldn't type retarded things instead
>>18738796God you're fucking dumb.But it's not suprising you being a muzzie and alm
>>18738792Unsubstantiated claims deserve no response. Thanks for admitting you were ignorant though. protip: muslims believe the words they follow are necessarily verified and divinely inspired
>>18738806>Thanks for admitting you were ignorant thoughIts ok i also admit your concession regarding my point
>>18738801>GodAppealing to beings you don't believe in again are we christkek?
>>18738814Just proving my point.
>>18738793Maybe the fact that all muslim pray in the same waySunnis and shiies perform almost identical prayersSo the possibility of any innovation is almost zero.Hadith are not revelead book like the quran, but many of them contain information about the sunnah
>>18738810That didn't happen my ignorant friend. If you're going to criticize a religion at least get basic facts about it right first
>>18738822It just did >>18738806>Muslims believe the words they follow are necessarily verified and divinely inspiredAnd since the hadiths cannot be verified and are not divinely inspired they cannot be true.
>>18738820Why do muslims pray the same way? It's because these instructions are found in hadith>Sunnis and shiies perform almost identical prayersMost sunni and shia hadith agree that's why lmao. Even outside of these main two
>>18738832Well, that proves that those hadith are true, therefore that way to do the daily pray are sunnah.
>>18738827That's just another ignorant claim of yours then. Quick question, how do you verify if anything happened or not historically?
>>18737021Salafism is the Islamic equivalent of Protestantism, the main difference being that the caliphate has already died and Salafism has just been sweeping unopposed and now defines the standard of what “proper Islam” looks like to all Sunnis. It’s like if the Protestant Reformation happened in the context of Rome falling and the papacy having been vacant for decades. Also, Islam was far less Arab-centric before Salafism convinced millions of poor Muslims across the world that their local cultures were actually a form of shirk (polytheism) and that real, authentic Islam was the tribal, bedouin culture of Najd, an area that none of Muhammed’s companions came from and whose inhabitants were considered by early Muslims from the Hejaz to be dumb savages. Islam on its own is not Arab-centric and historically it wasn’t, but the version Salafis practice is arguably one and it’s funny because a lot of them aren’t even Arabs. Similarly, Protestantism also increased cultural Hebrew influence on some practitioners, though this only really reached Salafi levels with Anglos. Also, think about how long Islam existed before Salafism sprang up. That’s coincidentally about as long Christianity existed before Protestantism came into being.
>>18738844>how do you verify if anything happened or not historically?You can't.
>>18738843>proves that those hadith are trueJust proves the muslims follow hadiths.Not that hadiths are true.
>>18738843And that includes most of them, meaning most authenticated hadith are true>Most Ibadi hadiths are found in the standard Sunni collections, bar a small group with Kharijite biases,[57]:233 and contemporary Ibadis often approve of the standard Sunni collections.[58]So pretty much all muslim groups agree and quranists are the odd one out. And they are backed by local custom too. So why should we reject them?
>>18738832>these instructions are found in hadithAnd where does the hadiths get its instructions
>>18737072There is no such thing as an untranslatable text
>>18738849You don't believe Ramesses II was a real person?
>>18738856I do but i could be wrong.All my knowledge about him comes from other people so i can't verify anything about him.
>>18738853The isnad mentions where they got it from. Other non-hadith muslim works used other sources such as israiliyat
>>18738859And where do they get it from?
>>18738854>untranslatable textMaybe the meaning of the traslation text is similar to the original one, but it will never be the same because EVERY traslation is only an aproximation. >>18738852Hadith on its own is not revelation. We should reject the ones which contradict the quran.
>>18738858Surely though you can make a probabilistic case that he likely existed because of the evidence we have. That's what we do all the time btw in our day to day lives
>>18738864>We should reject the ones which contradict the quran.I agree 100% That is the standard methodology anyway
>>18738850>Not that hadiths are trueI didnt says all hadith are true, but those are for sure.
>>18738867I guess you could still can't prove undeniable that it's real. Same with hadiths.
>>18738871Sure, and that thinking must include the ones which are supposed to be true. For example Bujari has many rare hadith.
>>18738872They're not you can't provide undeniable proof it's how muhammed prayed.Since the quran the only undeniable truth in this world doesnt mention it.
>>18738862The isnad mentions all of the people involved in its transmission anon, that's the whole point. The final one in that chain is a companion or the prophet (can be revelation) or God such as in the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_Qudsi
>>18738883>The isnad mentions all of the people involved in its transmission anonAnd where are those mentions located?If it's not in the quran then they're not verifiable.
>>18738880The prayer is a group activity. In muslim case, it is such a very structured ritual.Muhammad prayed in one way, so his followers copy the exact way he prayed. Then friends and relatives pray the same way and so.The pray is easy, but it is very structurated. That explains why all muslims pray the same way since the prophet life until today.>Since the quran the only undeniable truth in this worldQuran says we must follow the prophet example.
>>18738889>Quran says we must follow the prophet example.And the quran gives no example so there is no example that should be followed.
>>18738877I mean history works on probabilities. It is logically possible that Ramesses II was just Egyptian propaganda and somehow they worked with the Greeks to invent Ozymandias and also spread cuneiform documents referencing him in the Hittite Empire but it becomes extremely unlikely. I think your main issue is a very high level of skepticism regarding history
>>18737021There is. It's called 'Quran-onlyism'. The problem is that the quran itself alludes to traditions outside of it, and Muzzies will kill anyone they suspect with an atomic hint of apostasy, so it's not that popular.
>>18738864>EVERY traslation is only an aproximationThen include footnotes instead of insisting we learn Arabic
>>18737021Because it does not have a central ecclesiastical hierarchy and it already has a multitude of different theological traditions that would be reformers can rally around. There has never been a single, Islamic world wide reformation like in Europe but in particular Islamic traditions there have been total reformations wherein their previous Islamic way of life was completely overturned for another one. Notably, Iran used to be hardcore Sunni before it basically had a Shia bizarro reformation Wahhabism is also kind of like a reformation that’s happening right now
>>18737094The Quran said that for everything not mentioned or explained in the Quran itself, the words and the opinions of Muhammad were to be followed. So he always had around scribes writing down what he said.Of course, there is a high chance many hadiths were made up or altered by his immediate successors to suit their personal agendas. But after 1400 years is impossible to find which one of them isnt original, so the whole Islamic creed need to accept them all, more or less
>>18739304>Iran used to be hardcore SunniIt was always a main center of Shia militants (exp. the Buyids), but indeed It was always majority Sunni before the Safavids
>>18737021Islam is going through its protestant movement/reformation at the moment, with movements like the Salafi, Deobandi, and other such sects. Considering how violent and decentralised the religion is and how much it focuses on hating other religious groups it's less likely to result in European style wars of religion between the different sects, and more in increases of terror attacks targeted at Muslims and non-Muslims.
