One of the main points of contention between Catholics and Protestants concerns the subject of saints. While I understand that the Catholic logic behind "veneration" is simply a matter of paying honor or showing respect to a sacred figure, in practice, this often becomes completely distorted—to the point where 90% of it loses its original meaning. You see millions of people marching to pray to Mary, or individuals carrying holy cards in the belief that they will have better luck by aligning themselves with a "patron saint of work." It practically resembles a polytheistic religion. Despite this, I cannot bring myself to leave the Catholic Church; to me, Protestant groups feel more like sects than a traditional religion.
>Saint Matthew the Apostle (also known as Saint Matthew the Evangelist) is the patron saint of auditors, accountants, bookkeepers, bankers, and tax collectors
>>18744707You should not venerate saints. They are not on the level of Jesus Christ Savior of all. Only he can truly speak to the father by our demand. Saints, if anything, are closer to Christ so they rely our message. But in themselves, have no power. When one prays to Jesus, speaks directly to the father. When one prays to Mary or Saints, one asks for them to bring us closer to Christ.
>>18744707Is it a coincidence that all these so called white witches, mediums and spiritists use these exact same "icons" in order to present offerings to their demonic spirits and work with them? And what's worse, these demonios spirits accept these offerings from their altars and feel comfortable having these saint "icons" represent them?
>>18744730Exodus 22:18>Never allow a witch to live.Leviticus 20:27>“‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’”
>>18744707>While I understand that the Catholic logic behind "veneration" is simply a matter of paying honor or showing respect to a sacred figure, in practice, this often becomes completely distortedEvery religion has its practices distorted in practice for the simple reason that most followers of a religion will either be incredibly lax or genuinely retarded. Practice as you're meant to and ignore the stupidity of others.
>>18744752Daniel prayed directly to the Name and before he could finish uttering the first sentence God had already sent Gabriel to give him the answer. But if Daniel had prayed to Gabriel directly and asked him to intercede, Gabriel would have never appeared to him and God would have never heard that prayer. Gabriel only does what God tells him to do. You must not pray to the king's servants, you must pray only to the king and then he decides which of his servants to send to your aid.
>>18744707>It practically resembles a polytheistic religion. That's the point.
>>18744809
>>18744838
>>18744707Sweet, the flames in your part of Hell will be slightly less hot than your average Papist. What do you want, a pat on the back? You're still fucked.
>>18744707did you convert from a protestant denomination or you were born catholic?
>>18745092I was born Catholic, with religious grandparents; I grew up surrounded by statues of Mary and images of various saints. Only now, as an adult, have I taken to reading the Bible, and I’ve realized that many Catholic practices find no basis in the Bible or any other text—they are purely human inventions. Take, for example, the Stations of the Cross (Via Crucis) , which depict Jesus falling multiple times while carrying the cross; my Catholic school used to stage reenactments of this, yet the Bible says nothing of the sort. This is one of the aspects of Catholicism that troubles me most.At the same time, I cannot simply leave for another denomination, as evangelical and Protestant groups because these feel like businesses with weird pastors and an atmosphere that is truly "Machiavellian" in every sense of the word. The theories of Thomas Aquinas help me understand why this is, but the average Catholic doesn't read such things; instead, they pray to a local or regional saint, much like a Hindu might pray to a neighborhood deity.
>>18745182The crazy thing is that if you had been born in the house of Hispanic witches or santeros you would have also grown up surrounded by statue of Jesus, Mary and the saints.
>>18745182You sound like you'd be interested in the ideas of Martin Luther. >Bible as the central authority by whose standard every decision must be examined. >prayers to the saints are prohibited due to the fact that the Christ is the only intermediary between us and the Father. >the wothholding of the chalice from the laity is NEVER performed. Thus the words of institution are upheld.The Large Catechism has had great impact on me. It's a shame that the non-confessional "Lutheran" church bodies are publicly violating God's will. The Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference and International Lutheran Council member churches do not.
I venerate saints sometimes and I see nothing wrong with saint veneration. It is compatible with the New Testament (Matt. 22:31-32). It is not obligatory but if it helps a believer in his journey it should not be discouraged. Of course we should not get carried away and replace the Holg Trinity with a saint.
>Protestant groups feel more like sects than a traditional religion.What an absolutely silly nonsense statement. What is this even supposed to mean?
>>18747850Fact check: Matthew 22:31-32 has nothing to do with the worship of dead people
What about relics? While I don't think they should be banned outright and sometimes they might be conduits for miracles from God the issue is that they could easily lead into idolatry if left unchecked
>>18747972Not OP, but God doesn’t need “conduits” to perform miracles and He has no reason to perform miracles through them, the notion of relics is based on a poor misunderstanding of a few bible passages and on an excessive supernaturalism that expects miracles as an ordinary daily occurrence. Relics are bad in and of themselves, because they are a distraction away from the gospel as people are more interested in the lying wonders of corpses than salvation from sin and death.
>>18747850Christian Europeans engage in a practice called pious blackmail (which is witchcraft) where they punish or humiliate statues and images of saints if the saint does not give them what they ask for.It is obvious that the spirits they're working with and humiliating cannot possibly be the actual holy saints, they are working with unclean and demonic spirits.>In medieval and early modern Europe, "pious blackmail" (or the ritualistic punishment, humiliation and pressuring of saints and relics) referred to a widespread practice where monks, clergy, or laypeople held a saint's relics hostage to force a miraculous response.• Relic Coercion: If a local saint or image of the Virgin Mary failed to stop a drought, cure an illness, or protect a town, supplicants would lock up the saint’s relics in a dark room, strip the altar, turn the statues and images upsidedown or place statues of the saint face-down on the floor.• The "Quid Pro Quo": The logic was transactional—the saint had an obligation to protect their people or monastery in exchange for veneration, gifts, and status. By punishing or threatening the image/relic, the community signaled that the saint was failing their duty and wouldn't be restored to honor until the miracle was delivered.• Recorded Miracles: Medieval libri miraculorum (miracle books) from pilgrimage sites occasionally recorded these "forceful prayers" and the rapid-fire "positive miracles" that supposedly followed when the saint yielded to the pressure.• Early Acceptance vs. Ban: While local monks and popular piety frequently practiced this form of spiritual leverage, Church intellectuals and the official hierarchy eventually condemned it as superstitious or blasphemous.• The Official Ban: Ritualistic humiliation of relics and sacred images was formally prohibited by the Church in 1274 at the Second Council of Lyon, shifting official theology away from transactional coercion toward humble petition.
>>18748011And it is still a common practice among christian witcheshttps://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTfYEWUrR/https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTfYEtkvJ/https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTfYEWn37/https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTfYETo9F/
>>18748018>https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTfYETo9F/"Saint" is just the modern word for idol.
>>18744707I'm an atheist from a Catholic background. Even though I no longer believe in divinity and afterlife, I find the folk religious aspect of saints and the more mystical aspect of pre-second Vatican council Roman Catholicism very cosy and interesting. It gives the everyday faithful a direct and impactful link to belief. People should be allowed a folkly aspect to religion. It is perhaps the earliest aspect of human religiosity that still persists today. I do not believe that people should fear God and only experience faith through appointed clerics and preachers.Also, Catholic saints are a direct continuation of syncretic pagan patron dieties from pre-Christian religions.
>>18748082>I do not believe that people should fear GodThat makes you a fool. There is no one more terrifying than God. He's a nightmare to the wicked and evil. A nightmare that will never end. You should be terrified of doing what he considers wrong. It is what it means to be wise.
>>18747970Not only do Catholics not worship the saints, they're also not dead but rather alive, arguably even more so than either of us.
>>18748111And by they, I of course mean the saints and not the Catholics.
>>18748085If there truly was an omnipotent being such as the Abrahamic God, he would be so far above such petty mortal concerns.
>>18747970>worshipWrong>deadAlso wrong>nothing to doWrong as well.How did (you) manage to lie three times in one sentence? Impressive
>>18748011Popular beliefs were what they were. It does not follow from what you wrote that saint veneration is doctrinally wrong or unBiblical.
>>18744716He was a publican before he became a Disciple, that's why.
>>18745182>find no basis in the Bible or any other textThis is actually on the main contentions between christian denominations.First, what Bible is the Bible? The original translation from Hebrew to Greek called the Septuagint? The Ethiopian one? The KJV? Is the apocrypha part of the Bible and if not and the Bible is meant to be inerrant then why are those books somehow worse than the others?The Bible is no the be all and end all of everything in Christianity, it is a label for a set of texts that happened to have been translated from Hebrew and compiled into a collection. There are other texts but also oral and physical traditions also are a part of the religion and canon.
>>18748111>>18748140Not only do papists worship the dead, their worship their pictures and their remains. Also, the idea this verse actually has something to do with the subject at all is laughable. I bet you can’t even explain what the relevance is beyond “my thought leaders said so”. If you want, I can explain what it actually means (and dead people not being actually dead is not it) and why it has nothing to do with this idolatry.
>>18748192>doubles down on its lies and bullshit State (your) denomination or be called what you actually are
>>18748203
>>18748204>no argumentYou are a liar and son of liars. See John 8:44
>>18744707“Despite this, I can’t leave.”Calling everything else Protestant is a sin against God. Haven’t you figured that out yet? You’re sinning by calling other Christians not full Godhead Gracegiven Christians. They started it by instituting it, which is a direct act of judgement before Jesus Christ came back.Alex Jones aligns more with Protestant since he reads apocrypha, which aligns with the Catholic canon bible, not the true kjv bible given to us in the 1800s after the 1611 without any apocrypha. As such, he is always getting into grand landscape fantasies of the crusades being right. When they aren’t right. Jesus said his enemy fights for this world while he does not. And only returns to kill the antichrist who sets up such a strong new world religion that it actually kills everyone who doesn’t worship him and prevents everyone from buying or selling without his literal mark on your right hand or forehead. That’s the only reason Jesus Christ comes back. Is to stop him from having total control rape over the mind of people who are still alive. When the Bible gives such freedom from the control of fanaticists of the Jewish modern day Talmud Israel and Catholics proclaiming Israel their literal home they fight for in this world, we can easily see our enemy and pray for them every day. Like Elden ring and the Golden Order faction in the video game, they are extreme fanaticists who serve The Golden Order who basically view the order as the throne and barely acknowledge anything outside of it even though there is clearly things happening outside of it. The golden order is a bunch of gnostics (which translates to By Sight, not by Faith), who believe since they have made their base of operations where, essentially The Ark of the Covenant and the Temple on the Mount was, that this legitimizes their authority on earth. The Bible says that under the New Testament, which was made into a curse that would lead to being persecuted by this Old Order,
Which is why I only strongly support New Testament kjv bible believing churches that believe in the gospel to receive Jesus Christ’s righteous shed blood on the cross for sins, and nothing else. God’s Throne of Grace means you GET everything without deserving it, including Works that God will draw you into without need for worrying about anything, no buts. Period. Saved means Saved. The whole Protestant and Catholic paradigm is entirely Catholic in origin and has nothing to do with God’s Word. In fact, I am about to explode your whole view of that. Babylon’s King Nebuchadnezzar gave his kingdom to God, but the same process of trying to call all Christians not in the pope’s church is exactly what the Jews began doing once they met Babylon and calling everyone else goyim that is why they call it the Babylonian Talmud. The nameless king in dark souls is used as a reference to Godwin in Elden Ring as a guy who befriends creatures that are immensely intelligent (dragons) because dragons give dragon powers (like the academic studies of the Catholic church that they are actually after, not the actual church and worship of God and salvation, but still actuallyPracticing worship of Power to maintain a kingdom. Which has nothing to do with the New Testament. That has more to do with power, control, ability to put to death enemy kingdoms and make kings feel like their power and kingdom is assured. This led to Britain’s Imperial cultism and their own Catholic Church. Notice how they didn’t even want a “prottie” church or even a Baptist church, or just a kjv bible believing church strong on the NT. They wanted a church that is about real answers. Not ones based on faith alone for those works to come from God’s Grace.
>>18748131Just because you say so?
>>18748258Learn to use paragraphs.
>>18748287If you want to read a good book then read The New Testament. It’s called that for the purpose that your church is not the head of it. But under it. And when Jesus Christ returns, you’ll find out for sure why reading that whole wonderful post of paragraphs was important.
>>18748279Shalom, Hellanon.>Jews began doing that once they met Babylon and calling everyone goyim which is why they call it the Babylonian TalmudThe Talmud in its entirety was not created during Babylonian exile. In fact, many Jews did not return to Canaan and stayed in Babylon. After the Second Temple was destroyed the Babylonian Jews found themselves in a far more peaceful position than the Canaanite Jews’ turmoil. Regardless, they decided to write down their oral traditions (a forbidden act for them in any other case but an existential threat). This lead to the Babylonian Talmud, and the Canaanite Jews created the shorter Jerusalem Talmud. There’s several centuries of history, nearly a millennium, in between Nebuchadnezzar and the completion of the Talmud.>something something dark souls and churches being after power which is in the OT not in the NTMore then half of the OT consists of Jews getting mogged in different ways, and the apocrypha mentions more, and world history texts mention even more. Half of the Talmudic rules are for self-preservation and survival in a scenario where everyone is against them, which happened many times in history. If by power-seeking you mean masochism, I can understand.>Jewish modern day Talmud IsraelConsidering that ultra-Orthodox Hasidim are against Israel existing until the Messiah himself establishes it, it’s not as Talmudic.
>>18748312>wonderful post of paragraphs
>>18748413I forgive you of your sins that you rejected Jesus Christ’s blood on. Meaning you walking on Jesus’ blood as an unholy thing to you. I get more enjoyment than you because you will never see the light of a clean soul and can sleep at night while you thrash madly about your sin you created.
>>18748287Anon just begs that he can’t see a one parenthesis and one accidental return. Paragraphs are good. A++. He also didn’t answer a single thing and can’t stay on topic or follow instructions and didn’t personalize his response to anon’s beliefs that were fully acknowledged by him to God and the kjv bible.
>>18748475Dude just hit enter twice every once in a while.
>>18744707Before the Protestant Reformation of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli, there were Jan Hus/John Huss, Peter Waldo, Claudius of Turin, Vigilantius, Jovinian, and Helvidius, who argued similar things about proper church doctrines. The Early Church Fathers, particularly prior to Jerome and Augustine, would have most likely agreed with those sentiments. The 4th and 5th centuries represent rather rapid shifts for practices in the church from the primitive church to the more institutionalized church after the state of the Roman Empire supported it.
>>18745182>as evangelical and Protestant groups because these feel like businesses with weird pastors and an atmosphere that is truly "Machiavellian" in every sense of the wordStop looking at retarded Americans, for one. Secondly what do you actually think about core Protestant doctrine like sola fide and sola scriptura?
>>18744707>>18744716St. Nicholas as a key figure at the Council of Nicaea is no different than Jeffrey Epstein as a key figure in the Oslo Agreements + subsequent Abraham Accords.Both of them were scammy anti-white subverters of Christianity what wanted to venerate themselves as God.
>>18745182Have you read Luther's 95 theses yet? The Reformation was just that, an attempt to reform the Church. The reason protestants aren't part of the Roman Catholic Church is only because the Roman Catholic Church doesn't accept them.
>>18744707>I'm Catholic but I disagree with the PopeThe word you're looking for is heretic. There are thousands of Protestant flavors of Christianity if you want to be able to do amateur theology and choose which holy church doctrines you agree with. Do that or shut up and follow the infallible doctrines of the Bishop of Rome as they have come down from God himself.
>>18744730>>18744740This a logical fallacy. Whatever these loonies think they're doing has no bearing on actual Catholic teaching.
>>18754038The fact that the church accepts it does.
