New study on early 500’s Altheim Roman city. By that time completely occupied by Germanic tribes. The gravesites yield something surprising, a mix of Albanic (Illyrian) people and Germanic people according to typical Albanian and Germanic YDNA. Before this it was probably exclusively albanic.YDNA of Albanians found in the site, E-V13 and J2b2-L283. Only thing missing are Albanian R1b clades. But interesting how E-V13 is present. We could not confirm E-V13 is Illyrian but knowing that Illyrian soldiery was a big deal in the late Roman Empire it mostly confirms that illyrians settled in southern Germany in the 200’s-300’s AD becoming the majority at least in the cities. E-V13 is an Illyrian Haplo. Also proven Illyrian haplo, J2b2-l282 (from cetina and cinamak cultures) as well as R1b clades from Mycenaean samples that are common in Albanians. Overall, 70% of Gheg (Albanians in north Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, presevo, sandzak and Montenegro) Albanian males. Final proofs.
>>18757359Please review details in this forum thread. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/demography-and-life-histories-across-the-roman-frontier-in-germany-400%E2%80%93700-ce.46370/
>>18757359500 CE samples are not going to prove something was originally Illyrian after the mass muttification of Italy and the Balkans during the Roman periodI think E-V13 was likely mainly Thracian and only became prominent among Albanians become of founder efects
>>18757377>Albanians become of founder efects*because of founder effects
>>18757377E-V13 is found in combination at the site with J2b2-l283, proven conclusively to be illyrian. And in the same site you just have Albanic or Germanic lineages, some Celt, some other European lineage. It’s overwhelmingly and abundantly clear now. Rise of Illyrian soldiery not Thracian soldiery.
>>18757380False.https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/Literal Albanian flags in nearly every subclade. Not recent founder effect.
>>18757382>E-V13 is found in combination at the site with J2b2-l283, proven conclusively to be illyrian.It could have entered in Illyria un the early imperial periodAnyway we will see as we get more Illyrian samples>Rise of Illyrian soldiery not Thracian soldiery.E-V13 is certainly going to be more prominent among Thracian than Illyrians, even if it was present in both.Arguing otherwise is silly.Regardless Albanian could be Bessian for all you know, I really don't get the Illyrian obsession
>>18757386This one too? The northernmost borders of classical Illyria, E-V13 sample from 250 BC. Actually about 2.
>>18757393Another one, 3rd century BC, near Zagreb. Thracian? Nope, literal Illyrian and not from some Thracian migration in early Roman Empire.
>>18757385"Our findings suggest that the increased frequency of E-V13 between the Iron Age the Roman period examined herein is frequently associated with samples having a fully or partially Bulgaria_EIA-related autosomal profile. ""This may support historical records of “Thracian” groups, known as the “Bessi,” and the “Moesians” present throughout the Balkans until the 6th century CE2,35,98,99."https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v2.full>Not recent founder effect.https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2025/08/29/2023.06.05.543790/F11.large.jpgYou can see diversity in linege start increasing after 1800 BP, especially R1b, but even various E-V13 subclades.Just because it was not an extreme founder effect doesn't mean there was none>>18757393>>18757397Sure but see above, it's likely present in Illyria too, but the question is which subclades
>>18757393This same one near Austria, its subclade is BY3880.https://www.exploreyourdna.com/sample/hungary/i18832If you go a ctrl f on E-V13 ytree link “Alb” you get 180 Albanian flags. Now if you go do that just for BY3880 subclade you get 177. Nearly 99%. It’s a given the E-V13 of Albanians is from northern Illyria. Illyrian soldiers in late Rome had these y dna just like the other common Illyrian y dna.
>>18757407BY3880 subclade, 99% of all Albanian E-V13, found in 250 bc northern Illyrian border zone near modern Austria. It’s so abundantly clear.
>>18757412Ok but was BY3880 not in Bulgaria too?See this again:>Furthermore, individuals from Roman Serbia cladal to Bulgaria_EIA show considerable diversity in E-V13 subclades (e.g., E-BY5490, E-FGC33621, E-BY5022, E-CTS9320; Table S22)Each one of this clade is under BY3880, so that doesn't exclude the Thracian connection, no?
>>18757417Yes and no, one from 250 bc Bulgaria that I found did not test for that subclade and is another subclade. The famous 800 bc samples all test for BY3880 however, but only one went further deep into subclade BY5490 and no Albania has this specific subclade subclade of BY3880.
>>18757417From ytreeE-BY5490 = 0 AlbaniansE-FGC33621 = 25 Albanians E-BY5022 = 3 AlbaniansE-CTS9320 = 49 AlbaniansTotal = 77 Albanians out of 177 albanians in BY3880 subclade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BessiIssue with the Bessi theory is that they closer to the Greek influence zone than the Latin one, but it is still an attractive theory.If it's not Albanian it was a near-Albanian scenario most likely, a paleo-language almost surviving.
>>18757435The four royal Thracian tomb samples, only one went further deep in subclade testing beyond BY3880 and Albanians do not have that subclade. E-V13 in Albanians is not from Bulgaria>>18757436
>>18757443BY5490 subclade of BY3880. Albanians do not have BY5490, only deep tested pre Roman Thracian E-V13.
>>18757443>>18757435If you posted both, I'm not following your logic. You see that there are E-V13 subclades whose autosomal profile matches Bulgarian Iron age samples, despite being in Serbia, but that's not a Thracian connection to you?
>>18757449Are these Serbia samples pre Roman? Because your source says Roman Serbia to early Iron Age Bulgaria. Yes the 800 bc samples from Bulgaria are BY3880 but only one was tested further to BY5490 and no Albanian has this deep subclade. Likewise, safe to assume the rest of these Thracian samples are also BY5490.As for autosomal connection, I don’t put much pedigree since general regional similarity is always due to female interchanging between tribes or slavers.
>>18757452>As for autosomal connection, I don’t put much pedigree since general regional similarity is always due to female interchanging between tribes or slavers.This is a convenient speculation, but not a particularly attractive one. Thracian toponyms exist in Eastern Serbia too, in fact they go up to Eastern DardaniaThracia =/= Bulgaria"The results indicated that 68-84% of Albania_Medieval’s ancestry came from an Albania_BA_IA-related population, with additional admixture from Anatolian (16-32%) or Bulgaria_EIA-related (11-32%) sources (Table S4)."This argues for Eastern Balkan introgression"It is possible that Anatolian and Bulgaria_EIA-related sources were conflated by qpAdm, due to both deriving most of their ancestry from EEFs (Table S3)."This is a fine rebuttal within the article... but are we to believe ALL eastern ancestry in Albania is purely Anatolian and not from the Eastern Balkans? This is silly to me"Our findings suggest that the increased frequency of E-V13 between the Iron Age the Roman period examined herein is frequently associated with samples having a fully or partially Bulgaria_EIA-related autosomal profile."They say the increase is associated with an autosomal shift too, not sure how true it is but even if it's a product of sampling bias rather than a genuine shift the fact it still follows ydna shift is notable
>>18757456Sorry but Albanian E-V13 (BY3880) does not match with clade specific BY3880 from these Thracian Bulgarian samples, pre Rome.
>>18757461Ok but it matches the autosomally Thracian Serbian samples, during Rome
>>18757465Female lineages were mixed around. Not something important.
>>18757469yeah no, this is ridiculous
1. Region with low Slavic placenames and genetics in modern Albania, both a refugee of Romance speakers and Albanian under the Illyrian-Dardanian theory, or just Romance under the Bessoi theory2. Albanian homeland around 500-600 CE under the Dardanian theory3. Albanian homeland around 500-600 CE under the Bessoi theory
>>18757471Don’t worry, your latest cope is that the reason E-V13 is plentiful in 500 ad Altheim comes from thracians breeding Illyrian women or something and then their descendants being Illyrian soldiers of Rome that settled there. Just endless cope, something is up with this E-V13 = not really Illyrian conspiracy online. Don’t worry more proofs will come.
>>18757479> breeding Illyrian womenI mean, let's say that's my theory... how is that ANY different from your own argument? This is a bit hypocritical
>>18757483Because I’m against the Thracian theory of e-v13 in Albanian.
>>18757487Are you against ANY E-V13 being from Thrace?
Let me remind you of something: there are no official samples cataloged as Illyrian, Dacian, or Thracian. Until there are, I won’t take this kind of post seriously.
>>18757494No I’m not against some Thracian roots, but most of Albanian E-V13 is Illyrian, west Balkan.
>>18757503250 bc not Illyrian?
>>18757359>J2b2-l282 (from cetina and cinamak cultures.J2b (specifically J2b-L283 / J2b2a1) has been identified in ancient DNA samples associated with the western periphery and expansion of the Yamnaya culture and related Bronze Age steppe-to-Europe migrations (such as sample I10206 from Crihana-Veche, Moldova, dated around 2700 BC. Stature of approximately 181 cm unusually tall for the period indeed.The genetic sequencing of the sample revealed it to be a mix of "Core Yamnaya" and "Yunasite" ancestry possibly Trypillian-related. This combination is what defines the Western Yamnaya and the genesis of the Paleo-Balkan languages. It appears there were two distinct waves of J-L283 migration toward Albania: one associated with the Cetina culture, and the other with the Glasinac-Mati culture. Lastly, I would like to highlight that J2b-L283 and its westward migration cannot be associated with Maykop (dead theory, btw) based on thisCrihana Veche sample, because this migration would have needed to be present between the Don and Dnieper rivers at some point during the 5th millennium BC for the Core-Yam to form.>mycenaenThere is another interesting point here: the study by Yediay et al. (2024) demonstrates that the steppe ancestry and the haplogroup J-L283 found in Mycenaean Greece originated from a direct migration during the Early Bronze Age from Moldova, via the Black Sea corridor, rather than through an expansion from the Western Balkans. Please refer to the original publication by Yediay et al. the issue of a Greco-Armenian connection is also worth taking into accountIt appears that the numerous Eneolithic branches of R1b Z2103 also correspond very closely to the upper horizon at Mykhailivka, while the lower horizon perhaps corresponds to J2b L283. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43522-6
