As far as initial feats go such as circumnavigating the globe and establishing trading posts worldwide, I'd say the Portuguese for that, but as far as establishing an actual empire (as in actually spreading their culture, language, and administration), I'd say Spain.
>>18771706Got no horse in this race but more people do speak Spanish than Portuguese so...
>>18771706Portuchads obviously.
>>18771706Spics-Discovered America for everyone in the Old World.-Explored said new continents.-Explored the far north & far south American passages-Circumnavigated the world.Portruzilians-Uh...-Discovered the southern tip of Africa I guess.Hands down: Paco. All Portugal did was mostly sail in waters the people of Europe & Asia both already knew (the Indian Ocean Spice Routes).
>>18771706If you mean actual exploration and discovery, then Portugal by far. They were the ones who started the Age of Sail and the subsequent Age of Discovery in the first place, developing much of the technology like ships, instruments, and cartographic techniques that allowed Europe to reach places it had never reliability been able to beforeAt their peak almost every major European maritime power employed Portuguese captains, pilots, and navigators.Columbus got his start in Portugal, where he spent years as a sailor and captain before his voyage to the Americas. Magellan was Portuguese. The earliest English expeditions to America were led by Simão Fernandes, João Afonso piloted some of the first French expeditions to Canada, João Rodrigues Cabrillo discovered California, and Luís Vaz de Torres was the first European to navigate the Torres straitThey were also the first to practice modern colonialism and pioneered the triangular trade, which shifted the center of commerce away from the Mediterranean and toward the Atlantic, effectively transforming the Atlantic powers into the world's dominant powers, which they still are to this day. Portugal's mercantilism is also the primary percursor of capitalismUnironically had they not have done any of this Europe would've probably been stuck in more internal wars like the Hundred Years' War for a few more centuries until some chinks or arabs came knocking at their door instead
>>18772176>If you mean actual exploration and discovery, then Portugal by far.Quite the contrary. In terms of exposed/mapped land surface, Spain leads. In terms of explored water bodies, Spain leads. And in the exploration of continental interiors, Spain leads.>>18772176>developing much of the technology like ships, instruments, and cartographic techniquesIt was a process of constant feedback. During the 16th century, Spain developed revolutionary innovations in ships (the galleon), instruments (accounting for magnetic declination) and cartographic techniques (precise coordinates), all of which Portugal promptly adopted and put to use.A key example: While the Volta do mar technique (leveraging the circular patterns of Atlantic currents) was a Portuguese achievement, Spain devised an innovative solution for the Pacific equivalent: the Tornaviaje.
>>18772552Well, if we measure exploration by square kilometers of newly discovered land and oceans traversed, Spain clearly takes the lead, given the vastness of the Americas and the Pacific. If we measure it by chronological priority and the opening of trade routes, Portugal would be the winner. In reality, the two empires complemented each other.
>>18772176>João Rodrigues Cabrillo discovered CaliforniaNo. There is documentary evidence proving that Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo was Spanish. Research led by Canadian historian Wendy Kramer at the General Archive of the Indies (Archivo General de Indias) debunked the far-fetched Portuguese theory by uncovering legal documents signed by Cabrillo himself, in which he identifies his place of origin as Palma del Río (Córdoba, Spain). This was not strictly necessary—had he been Portuguese, the meticulous bureaucracy of the Casa de la Contratación in Seville would have recorded; but now, there is no room for any doubt whatsoever.
>>18772581He was described as Portuguese by one of Spain's royal chroniclers just decades after his death, and there is a toponym in California named after him that used the Portuguese spelling of "Cabrilho" and not Cabrillo around that time. Sounds like more Spaniard historic revisionism like they have tried with Columbus
>>18772552>Spain developed revolutionary innovations in shipsSure it did, pablo
>>18772581He wasn't Castilian
>>18771787>All Portugal did was mostly sail in waters the people of Europe & Asia both already knewWhy didn't they do it, then?
>>18772552Portugal had caravelas and naus, it didn't need shitty galleons
>>18771706Small pox vs measles is the real question.
>>18772626>Sounds like more Spaniard historic revisionismNope. Canadian historian Wendy Kramer, by chance, at the General Archive of the Indies...>>18772626>He was described as Portuguese by one of Spain's royal chroniclers just decades after his deathSix decades later... during the Iberian Union. The Kramer documents were signed in 1532 by the man himself. This is not the account of a third party; it is the explorer himself, speaking in the first person, stating his place of origin, detailing his precise role in the conquest of Mexico alongside Hernán Cortés, his subsequent move to Guatemala, the names of his business associates, his properties... Every piece of the puzzle fits together perfectly.>>18772626>there is a toponym in California named after him that used the Portuguese spelling of "Cabrilho"Nope. The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) and the Board on Geographic Names (BGN), which govern the country’s official cartography, record all geographical features, streets, schools, and parks using exclusively the Spanish spelling “Cabrillo”. On several occasions, the Portuguese community in California formally requested that the federal government change the name of the national monument to reflect the Portuguese spelling. The National Park Service consistently denied these requests, arguing that the documentary tradition established in California since the era of Spanish exploration—as well as the state’s entire toponymy (seen in names like Point Cabrillo or Cabrillo Beach)—had always been legally fixed as "Cabrillo". Regarding your photo, the U.S. National Park Service also acknowledges the evidence found concerning its Spanish origin, but it has decided to leave the monument as it is due to its own local historical and cultural value while updating the official explanatory texts.
>>18772713Cope
>>18772683>Portugal had caravelas and naus, it didn't need shitty galleonsCaravelas and Naus became easy targets, so they adopted galleons quickly (faster, more maneuverable and packed with massive firepower).
>>18772724And galleons weren't easy targets?
>>18772720I’m sorry, but in historical methodology, a source contemporary to the figure in question always takes precedence over a much later chronicle.
>>18772732We know exactly where he was born. Stop coping
>>18772735>We know exactly where he was born. Stop copingCompletely made-up. Come on, don't be ridiculous.
>>18772728>And galleons weren't easy targets?No, (again) don't be ridiculous. Your pic: caribbean storms broke the defensive formation, scattered the ships and left them completely separated from their military escorts. And obviously exception to the rule (but you already know that).
>>18772713you can just read his wikislopia article that has an extensive list of evidence for him being portuguese, you can't seriously dismiss that just because of one alleged witness testimony from a man that seems to be him who claims to be a "natural" from an alleged town in Spain
>>18772759The Portuguese made the best galleons, sorryhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_galleon_S%C3%A3o_MartinhoCastilians were crap at it, like they were at everything else
>>18772775It is the transcript of an actual trial from 1532 (a legal dispute between the conquistadors of Guatemala) in which Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo appeared in person as a witness and testified under oath. Please, stop making a fool of yourself.
>>18772783"I live in my mother's basement" level historiography; and then we wonder why this site is dying...
>>18772790The person we're talking about is João Rodrigues Cabrilho
>>18772800Why are spics so delusional?
>>18772775Don't even bother reading Wikimedia garbage, just read the actual study that it's based on (which is peer reviewed)https://asphs.net/article/the-double-nationality-of-joao-rodrigues-cabrilho-portuguese-born-naturalized-castilian-part-i-a-much-needed-review/And it reaches the same conclusion nearly 500 years of history has pointed to, that Cabrilho was a Portuguese man, born in Portugal, who later became a naturalized Castilian.But the fact that this schism even exists reflects a lot about the Spanish mentality, like the whole Columbus thing, where they literally dug up corpses just to try to disprove a well established historical fact. Spaniards seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that a lot of their great deeds were built on the backs of foreign men who were given the means to achieve them by Spain, with due praise. In contrast, all the great men from this period in Portugal were pretty much exclusively Portuguese, doing things for Portugal, with perhaps Vespucci, who also aided Portugal, being the exception hereEven this anon >>18772783 has a point, the infamous "Spanish" Armada was, in fact largely composed of Portuguese ships from the Carreiras das Índias and captained by Portuguese men who were often more experienced in naval warfare than their Spanish counterparts, with the São Martinho being the flagship and the biggest galleon in the battlefield.This was actually later seen as a betrayal of Portugal's independence and was one of the reasons they eventually kicked out their Spanish king
>>18772961The Habsburgs were more Portuguese than "Spanish" (whatever that means)
>>18772961>Cabrilho was a Portuguese man, born in Portugal, who later became a naturalized Castilian.Sorry, but that doesn't wash. In academic circles, the historians unanimously considers his origin in Córdoba to be a proven fact. One does not obtain "naturalization" from a specific town, but rather from a kingdom or a state. Are there still some Portuguese (such as the person in your link, or the Portuguese community in San Diego) who refuse to accept reality and persist with their own absurd conjectures (while, ironically, accusing others of doing the very same thing)? Yes, there are. In Cabrillo’s time, the Portuguese were foreigners. To travel to the Americas, engage in trade, or hold land, a Portuguese person was strictly required to possess a Carta de Naturaleza granted by the King, or alternatively, a license from the Casa de la Contratación. Yet, no such application or license for a foreigner exists in the historical archives under the name of Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo (nor under the name João Rodrigues Cabrilho). In the trial, appeared as a witness and stated that he was from Palma del Río, explaining that he had been raised there and that his legitimate family (including his sister and nephews, who are also well documented in that area) resided there. A routine check of the local records in Palma del Río would have instantly exposed his lie. His testimony was straightforward and natural, with no apparent motive for deception (as he was not a party to the lawsuit). Witnesses who also testified in the legal proceedings explicitly confirmed his identity. Had there been even the slightest suspicion that Cabrillo was lying about his origins (in a case involving a shipment of royal gold) the other parties involved or the king’s prosecutors would surely have exposed him to invalidate his testimony.
>>18773057Has the thought ever crossed your mind that maybe he just lied, in order not to be harassed by xenophobic Castilians?They had already left Magalhães for dead
>>18773073>Has the thought ever crossed your mind that maybe he just lied, in order not to be harassed by xenophobic Castilians?As if no one had ever thought of that before... But contemporary historiography holds that such doubts are unreasonable, because it is literally impossible to sustain a lie of such magnitude (one involving events as closely scrutinized as a Castilian marriage, an official embarkation in Seville, three separate judicial depositions, or the transfer of a massive inheritance to one’s children).
>>18772961>the infamous "Spanish" Armada was, in fact largely composed of Portuguese ships from the Carreiras das Índias and captained by Portuguese men who were often more experienced in naval warfare than their Spanish counterparts, with the São Martinho being the flagship and the biggest galleon in the battlefield.And so the dishonest charade continues. Only 12 of the 130 ships were of Portuguese construction. Of those twelve, a mere four had Portuguese captains or maestres de campo (commanders). The San Martín (the flagship) was under the direct command of the expedition’s commander-in-chief, the Castilian nobleman Alonso Pérez de Guzmán (Duke of Medina Sidonia), alongside maestre de campo Francisco Arias de Bobadilla. The San Juan, the squadron’s vice-flagship, was commanded by one of the most experienced Spanish mariners of the era, the Basque Juan Martínez de Recalde.
>>18773105Maybe if they were commanded by a Lvsitanian, they would have won
>>18773108They won (the war).
>>18773116yeah this. the "Protestant Wind" was an epic setback for what Philip II wanted, but he learnt from that and proceeded to paddle the shit out of the English. That's one big reason the English didn't do well in the Americas until 1609 or so.
>>18773138Why are Anglos like this?
>>18773158I'm Anglo Catholic, so it's not my circus. Much.I'll say that protecting our own homeland matters. I don't want spics running my country even if we agree on the sacraments or whatever. Mission accomplished.I care a lot less for foreign adventures. Spics don't want limeys coming over and telling them what to do, either, I reckon. That English Armada was retarded. No way a basically shallow-water fleet of jumped up pirates was going to win in Spain. That's like the Russian Baltic Fleet level of retardery.
>>18773105The core of the Armada were 20 or so galleons, of which 8 or 9 were built by Portugal, which included the biggest and most advanced galleons in the entire fleet
>>18773186honestly this is a pretty brvtal mog, I didn't even know about it
