Since it's agreed now that had the evidence that's available now, been available at Nuremberg he would have got the death penalty; Was he actually remorseful for his part in the Nazi regime or was he just feigning remorse to get a reduced sentence?
>>18779220He should've went to Turkey.
>>18779220Let's all be honest, if the autists on this site were given a blank check and unlimited slave labor to work on autism projects we all woulda done the same thing.
>>18779220>you gotta believe me bro i never would have made the jewkiller gas attack soap factory death device 410000 had i known what it would be used for!
>>18779220Everyone used forced labor during the war. You think the allies just let those retarded POWs sit around all day soaking up resources?>feigning remorseIt's not remorse. It's strategically feigned ignorance that any lawyer worth a buck o five would advise you to do. Talking only gets you in trouble and implicates you. The fact that you are being questioned means the prosecution doesn't know as much as they'd like to. A simple "i wasn't aware of that" leaves them with their hands tied.
>>18779220I remember when wikipedia treated him as the good nazi. Good times.Anyway, because of his submission to the court, he deserved life sentence instead of death penalty. He should have ended like Hess.
Speer was the only guy cappable of actually reading the room
>>18780806Nuremberg trials was mostly about paving the way for a post-war denazified Germany, so a major purpose of the trial was to get rid of any die-hard ideologicals that might disturb that process.Speer wasnt an ideological. or at least he knew what to do to make the court look the other way: This was also the reason why people like Döntiz got several decades in prison despite having virtually committed no crimes what so ever (in fact Dönitz case caused a huge scandal since many things he was charged for was done by allied naval commanders as well). Dönitz was simply imprisoned for being a nazi, they simply couldnt let him walk since he would have been a problem for the post-war democratic Germany process.
>>18779222South Korea is better overall. Less risk, still cheap and nice to book a vacation to regardless.
>>18780885>Dönitz was simply imprisoned for being a nazilmao what, tons of high ranking nazis worked both in NATO and were widely accepted in West Germany (In east germany too but at least Soviets tried to hide it a bit while it was open in the west), polchuds inveted a narrative where nazis were persecuted in germany after the war to fit their we wuz victims narrative. Dönitz was useless for allies since they wanted Germany army, not the German navy, so he got the short stick
>>18781041so why was he imprisoned, because they had no use for one of the highest ranking members (even the highest in the final days) of national socialist germany?>tons of high ranking nazis worked both in NATO and were widely accepted in West Germanyalmost as if a completely destroyed germany with all the competent and experienced war time leaders swinging from a rope isn't the best bulwark against judeo-bolshevism
>>18781041>>18780885 You two allied bitches stopped barking already?In WW3, We Germans will open camps not just for jews, but americans as well - and the world will clap. Start preparing KEK>KEK
>>18781063yes, just as i said, they had no use for him, he wasn't super popular and most germans didn't know him very well before 1 may and he was an admiral of a navy which was pretty worthless for the western allies, they mostly looked after land army military leaders
>>18781066Is your point that the allies were completely morally corrupt and didn't give a shit as long as long as they could exploit german knowledge and experience?i agree, but i find your way of reasoning a bit strange
>>18781098I'm not sure what are you talking about. If you think that USA and UK were some superheroes who defeated hitler to rescue the poor Jews then yes, that's a bullshit, the nazis were crushed because their agression threaten their position as world leaders, the moral superiority of Allies who did not pursue policy of genocide of whole nations was a good bonus for propaganda and the opinions among neutral nations but was not the reason for WW2
>>18779220He was trying to save himself first and foremost. But I doubt he felt very good about it.>>18779245It's kind of insane how much of a Paradox GSG sperg's dream Nazi Germany could be.>>18779956POWs such as Ukrainian children and French civilians.Granted, the allies took their fair share of slaves. Just less slaves. A greatly reduced number of child slaves, too.
>>18780885>in fact Dönitz case caused a huge scandal since many things he was charged for was done by allied naval commanders as wellI mean that's how he defeated the charges, Nimitz literally admitted they did the same thing he ordered after the Laconia incident
>>18781208Nimitz didn't even admitted it, he just stepped in because a lot of the charges were bogus and hypocrisy overloadseems to have been a recurring theme during the nuremberg trials
>>18781222The entire Nuremberg trials was bullshit for the simple fact that the Soviets were among the jurors. They were just as guilty of war of aggression and crimes against peace. Not defending the nazies but anyone who actually thinks Nuremberg was about justice and not just a political consolidation among the victorious powers for post-war Germany is a fucking moron.And yes Dönitz is the perfect example since he was virtually not guilty of any crimes but they simply couldnt allow a die-hard outspoken nazi with lots of popularity to simply walk. >>18781041You fucking retard, pretty much all of those Germans who got any high position only did so because they disowned nazism and Hitler, and the allied gladly helped them, hence the 'clean wehrmacht' myth was born.Dönitz did not disown nazism, instead he did the opposite, and that's why he got thrown in the can.
To speculate about such things is pointless because the enslavement of humanity to the jewry went so far the already dubious justice of the Nuremberg courts would've just turned to you made jews cry now you and all your family up to 9th cousin has to be killed to protect human rights.
>>18782164I'm struggling to understand this schizo post but the Nuremberg trials were actually very fair. The accused all got lawyers and fair trials, dubious evidence was thrown out, three of them were acquitted and Speer wasn't given a death sentence even though he deserved one-proving it was a fair trial and not just 'victor's justice' The whole 'victor's justice'/ winner writes the histories about Nuremberg really was just a bitter revisionist cope. The truth was most of the Nazis tried there were all guilty as sin >>18781585On the contrary, the Soviets were proof of their legitimacy. The Soviets wanted to just hang them all and not bother to give them even a show trial but they went along with it. The Soviets were the biggest victims of Nazis war crimes and aggression, they had as much if not more right to justice than anyone. The fact that they might have been nasty people does not magically make them not victims of Nazi crimes.
>>18782413>Nuremberg trials were actually very fairIn what legal codex prior to Nuremberg, "conspiracy against peace" and "pursuit of offensive war" was a thing. In what fair legal order bolshevik bandit uprising in Warsaw can turn its participants from bandit group that had no right to supposedly uniformed military that has combatants/POW rights based on the decree of the countries who were at war with Germany(against which said bandits have risen up)? This nonsense then goes to the court and the court declares oooooh you dun abuse POW's. This is your fair Nuremberg, law acting retroactively(on just insane charges thst can only be executed on a losing side of a war) and reclassification of common banditry into combatants by your opponents being held legitimate by the judges.
>>18779245>>18781168>It's kind of insane how much of a Paradox GSG sperg's dream Nazi Germany could be.That's a midwit take. The real fun happened in the USA and the USSR. Germany was a regional power without resources.
>>18782413>The fact that they might have been nasty people does not magically make them not victims of Nazi crimes.How is this relevant?The Germans were put on trial on crimes against peace and war of aggression. You cant just change the charges because you want to shield the Soviets.If there is a trial for armed robbery, and two men are on trial, one of the accused does not simply get to walk just because he had previously been assaulted by the hands of the other accused. They still committed the same crime, and a crime is a crime. it's not automatically voided because you think it should.You honestly sound extremely low IQ or deliberately being pro-Soviet with your reasoning and logic.If Nurember was objecive, then the Soviets should absolutely have been tried on the charges of crimes against peace and war of aggression. They werent. Instead they were among the jurors which is bullshit. A court isnt supposed to seperate people like that. >The whole 'victor's justice'/ winner writes the histories about Nuremberg really was just a bitter revisionist cope.The only one whos coping here is you because you cant reasonabily or logically justify your rationale. No court in any democratic country operates the way you're suggesting should be the legal doctrine.
>>18779956The Allies didn't work hundreds of thousands of their POW workers to death.
>>18783321You are lying you disgusting bastard, the usa literally throws white phosphorus at women and children in the middle east. Yet no one is taking them to court and executing all american governments since bush
>>18783303>You honestly sound extremely low IQThe same to youThey were putting Nazi war criminals on trial for their crimes. No that doesn't mean they are going to charge everyone in the world, including their allies for crimes. The fact that you either pretend not to understand this or can't speaks volumes about your stupidity >The only one whos coping here is you because you cant reasonabilyN-n-n u!!! Fucking crying little pussy. Don't even bother responding to this because it'll just be cope and equivocation
>>18783334Are you actually brown?
>>18783110Can you please take your meds before posting?
>>18783869He’s right
>>18783303The Soviets weren't on trial you stupid, stupid cunt. The Nazis were the ones who'd invaded their country and raped it. You can't just let the Nazis go and not charge them for this, because the Soviets might have done bad things themselves in the past. See? Do you understand this very simple point now? >If Nurember was objecive, then the Soviets should absolutely have been tried on the charges They were charging the NAZIS, the ones who caused the war and committed the worst crimes. They weren't putting every single bad person in history on trial. They were trying to establish a system of international law and a conception of war crimes to prevent people like the Nazis ever doing anything that evil again. And yes in the future this would apply to the USSR and the US. It was a truly great thing and the fact that the US or Israel for example has not played entirely by these rules in no way undermines what they did they there. The fact that little rats like you try to undermine this with "B-but WHAT ABOUT THEM!!!" equivocation and attempts to confuse the matter, while having this air that you are being 'logical', disgusts me on a level I find hard to adequately convey
>>18783880He definitely isn't, but I couldn't decipher much in his word salad nonsense
>>18783176The U.S wouldn't empower you to plan out the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union 50/50. We have different GSG spergs in mind.
>>18783866 I feel bad for innocent women and children and that leads me to hate the usa and shitsrahell
>>18783869I'll dumb it down for you.1. At Nuremberg some of the charges thrown at defendants were "conspiracy against peace" and "pursuit of offensive war". The only institution that wanted to recognise them as offenses prior to tje outbreak of the war was LoN but it failed to introduce it(required consensis from member states) and of course, Germany wasn't a part of it when the war started anyway. Hess was imprisoned until they bullied him into suicide in these charges so it wasn't a laughing matter mind you.As obvious as it is you can only judge the losers for these crimes.2. A lot of "warcrimes" were part of anti-partisan actions. The Warsaw Uprising is a good case study of it but it generally followed suit. International law at the time degermined what a combatant was and what wasn't. A combatant has to have uniform etc. and no armband is not a uniform. This meant that killing a partisan was legally an equivalent of killing a common highwayman.The introduction being done let's go to Warsaw Uprising. The bolshevik poles decided to practice banditry as the red hordes of their compatriot Rokossovsky approached the city. The uprising started but few days later Rokossovsky's offensive is stopped after months as Model finally reforms a frontline and soundly defeats bolshevik avantgarde. The bandit uprising within a city rages on, now that the actual Bolshevik military needs to regroup and crossing the Vistula isn't really possible(Germans controll all the bridges and have mined them, bandits couldn't manage to capture a single one in the city and the closest ones outside of it to the south are some 50km away). The Germans then send a police force to pacify the bandits. As this is happening the allies unilaterally declare that these bandits are actually combatant and after the war people get hanged and imprisoned for pacifying them.This is your fair trial. I can spell it out for you in syllabes if you still can't understand the priblems.
>>18783956>Germany wasn't a part of it when the war started anyway.So I guess if you aren't a part of it it's fine huh? >A lot of "warcrimes" were part of anti-partisan actionsThe majority of them weren't , this is pure Nazism apologist revisionism .What do you think we should have done with them? Just let them all go? Because we don't want to be hypocrites?>Hess was imprisoned until they bullied him into suicide Hess killed himself at the age of 88. He was completely insane. There were 24 prosecutions and only 19 convictions, 12 of them with a penalty of death. If this had been a show trial there would have been 24 death penalties Once again though, just because you didn't sign a peace of paper beforehand saying you agree an action is illegal, doesn't mean it isn't an evil action that should be punished. Yeah no shit most of the war crimes the Nazis did were legal under the Nazi regime, the Nazis ordered them
>>18779245I mean I wouldn't but the temptation is there.>>18780806This. Honestly the only reason he got away with it was because he was basically the only guy to throw himself as the mercy of the court and go OH GOD PLEASE DON'T KILL ME, I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING I'M JUST AN INNOCENT TECHNOCRAT! Everyone else at Nuremberg either looked at concentration camp footage with an unblinking stare, blamed it on Hitler, or acted indignant about it. If anyone else tried what he did, he probably wouldn't have gotten away with it either, but because it was just him, they let him off easy.
>>18784052He also very importantly, accepted collective guilt for being part of a government that did bad things while denying any personal guilt. This allowed the court to just see him as a bureaucrat but also not going down the "just following orders" defense
>>18784052>I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING I'M JUST AN INNOCENT TECHNOCRAT!Tbf most/all of them tried this as well.
>>18784052>Everyone else at Nuremberg either looked at concentration camp footage with an unblinking stare, blamed it on Hitler, or acted indignant about it.Not at all. Several of them burst out crying afterwards in private when visited by Gilbert and Goering was so ashamed (if not necessarily guilty) that he was literally facepalming throughout much of it
>>18784067No most of them tried the whole "come on guys, I was just following the orders they gave me, am I really at fault", the exception being Goering who basically tried to shame the court and acted proud of what he did for his country which just made them want to hang him.It should be noted that "just following orders" was actually considered a valid defense if your rank was low enough that there was legitimate reason to believe the regime would punish you or your family for not doing so. It was not considered a legal defense if your rank was high enough that you had the ability to defy some orders and get away with it.
>>18781585>pretty much all of those Germans who got any high position only did so because they disowned nazism and Hitlerhahahahaha
>>18783864>>18783883>They were putting Nazi war criminals on trial for their crimes.If its a crime then it should apply to everyone who commits the crime.Law applies to everyone, otherwise its hypocracy.>The fact that you either pretend not to understand this or can't speaks volumes about your stupidityHow is it stupidity to argue the very foundation principle of law?>You can't just let the Nazis go and not charge them for thisNo one has said anything about letting them go.That's not what is being argued here.The argument is that the juror (the soviets) were just as guilty as the Germans for crimes against peace and war of aggression, yet were not on trial for those crimes in a supposed court of law.Hence Nuremberg wasnt justice, it was victors justice.>They were charging the NAZIS, the ones who caused the war and committed the worst crimes. At no court of law does a murderer get to walk free because he killed less than the other murderer.And the war was started by Germany and the Russians. They conspired the war together.> They weren't putting every single bad person in history on trial. That's not whats being argued. Its the fact that the Soviets were among the jurors instead of also on the stand.>The Soviets weren't on trial you stupid, stupid cunt.People like you aka boomers always gets so emotional whenever the ww2 mythology is violated.You literally get super emotional about this. Why? Because it's lliterally a religion, not history.
>>18784149They had conquered Germany and had in custody a whole bunch of Nazis who they put on trial for their crimes. They weren't trying the Soviets>No one has said anything about letting them go. But that's exactly the crux of the matter. The Soviets weren't on trial The Nazis were who were on trial. You can't let criminals go free because you need to put every criminal in the world on trial as well or it's unfair.>No one has said anything about letting them go.So you agree that the Nazis should have been convicted? Good >And the war was started by Germany and the Russians. They conspired the war together.Nah. The Germans started the war, the Russians went along with them because they thought they could get something out of it, but they wouldn't have done it by themselves otherwise. If anything the Russians warmongering here can be filed under axis crimes.The Soviets were jurors because they were the victims of nazi aggression and brutal war crimes. Had it been up to them they would have killed all the defendants>You literally get super emotional about this. Why? Because I was pissed about something else. But this stuff does annoy me. The people who claim there's a lot of ambiguity about this and actually it was this and that. The Nazis regime was one of the purest examples of evil seen in history and the Nuremberg trials were actually a very fair process, in spite of people claiming it was 'victors justice' etc On a side note, no I don't think the Soviets did committ the same kind of crimes the Nazis did in the Second World War, so I don''t think it is a case of them both doing the exact same thing and only one side being punished
>>18784189>They weren't trying the SovietsSo it was neither law nor justice then.Because if it was law, then the Soviets would absolutely be on the stand. Law is law.>You can't let criminals go freeNo one has said anything about letting the Germans go free for their crimes, that's not whats being argued here.>because you need to put every criminal in the world on trial as well or it's unfair.There is a difference between "eveyone in the world" versus having the very people in the same room that are guilty of the same crime. Not just in the same room, but among the jurors.You're being hyperbolic with the "everyone in the whole world" framing because you know I have a point, but you're trying to belittle my logic. When will you admit that you're being biased.>So you agree that the Nazis should have been convicted? GoodYes, not once was the opposite being argued. You seem to be debating on something you *think* I am saying based on your own distorted interpretations and assumptions instead of reading and debating what I am actually saying.>Nah. The Germans started the war, the Russians went along with them because they thought they could get something out of itDamage control overload and a complete distortion of history. You should read up on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and what the Soviets literally demanded, and stop trying to find every possible way to excuse it, while simultaniously seething at chuds who do the exact same thing with Nazi-Germany.You dont even remotely see the hypocracy in this?>The Soviets were jurors because they were the victims of nazi aggressionAnd why wasnt Finland, Estonia, Poland, Latvia, Romania, Lithuania jurors as victims of Soviet aggression 1939?
>>18779220>>18780885Speer always struck me as the "i can fix them" guyhim and a lot of others weren't hardcore ideologues but they had a big interest in the state and guiding Nazism to "a soft landing"i think he was genuinely remorseful that he failed/ didn't get the chance to do that if you can call that remorsewhat happened to germany in the decades that came must have been really hard to swallow for a lot of the guys who worked most their whole lives to build it
>>18783303Cutting a deal with one criminal to take down a worse one is standard police practice.
>>18784247He did refuse to destroy Germany at the end. On a side note apparently he was Hitler's only real friend which is kind of sad
>>18784001>Once again though, just because you didn't sign a peace of paper beforehand saying you agree an action is illegal, doesn't mean it isn't an evil action that should be punishedI'd love you to argue about something like this on court over any case at all. An "evil action" was comitted, no there was no law declaring it illegal at the time and the body that argued for it didn't have jurisdiction over the place it happened, but it's evil so the accused should go to jail forever. There are several fundamental rules of law, typically attributed to the Romans, and one of them is that law doesn't work in reverse. Well who would've known kangaroo court at Nuremberg disagreed on that rule. Also Hess was simply extremely resistant to tortures and abuse, that's why he lasted so long. Others denounced Hitler great cultural revolution style and were released 20 years prior to his death. Still he was in jail for crimes that weren't declared to be so at the day they happened, that would've been circumvented had they were(it would've been a humanitarian intervention or peacekeeping mission instead of a war, that is enough to avoid the same charges today, I bet the "fair" court at Nuremberg would've accepted it).
>>18784303>On a side note apparently he was Hitler's only real friend which is kind of sadThat was the roommate from his studying days
>>18784598It's an international tribunal not a criminal court so these metaphors have limited usefulness, if any. It's a tricky concept, International Law, but I don't think we need to worry too much about whether something was illegal in the country or not of course the crimes committed are going to be legal under Nazi Germany they were the ones that ordered them. I think we can safely say the mass extermination of a people based purely on their race is a very evil thing, even if it is considered legal by the state that is doing it. And it does seem a little coy to me for the Germans to say "oh we didn't know slavery was considered bad or illegal until Nuremberg" "until Nuremberg 'invented' the crime of war of aggression we thought it was just fine" again seems a little too coy-when was this golden age where invading a foreign country for the sole purpose of conquering and exploiting their land and enslaving their people was considered fine? Never that's when, it's been universally condemned since time immemorial even if it wasn't ever formalised in international law. Which of course it wouldn't be because international law a new thing designed to try and stop something like the World Wars and mass killings happening again
Albert Speer was intelligent enough to compartmentalise his empathy away when it wasn’t useful to achieving his goals.Speer was an actual ideological Nazi and a true believer. Both in national socialism and Hitler as a leaderHowever, as Germany undeniably began to lose the war. It’s clear this shook his faith and belief. Hence him defying the Nero decreeWe also know Speer was around the posen meetings to discuss the Holocaust of the Jews. He was fully on board. It’s much more he just decided Nazism was flawed because it failed
>>18785472>when was this golden age where invading a foreign country for the sole purpose of conquering and exploiting their land and enslaving their people was considered fine? Never that's when, it's been universally condemned since time immemorialLolcow tier post.
>>18785534>everything is heckin colonialismdumb lefty doesnt know wars of expansion are always, without exception, more expensive, they are geopolitical monuments, pieces of cartographic architectural works.They arent actually materially beneficial.>BUT HECKIN MARX SAID EXPLOITATION AND EXTRACTIONhe was talking about industrial society within an industrial country.Dialectical materialism applied to economics DOES NOT WORK when applied outside of Marx's own time.>heh chuddy im actuallyplease fucking spare us, we know youre a lefty because of how you are unable to grasp basic historical concepts if they dont fit your silly "shinies determine history xddd" framework.
>>18783883>DA NAZISthe nazis werent even bad. They did the least horrible things.Also its a war, which the Nazis didnt even start, and wars are always terrible.>trying to establish a system of international lawLOOOOOOOOOOOOLThey were doing what they did at Versailles you dumb monkey, which is jockying for top spot them trying to gaslight everyone into accepting the status quo forever as the end of history.Lefties used to make this point back prior to WWII stating it was Imperialism's greatest trick to get its subjects to believe change was impossible because the rules and laws and regulations are sacred.Japan had that famous statement "when we were losing we were forced to play the game, when when we started to win the game, they withdrew and outlawed the game".something like that.(You) will defend Imperialism if its against "fascism" becuase you see "fascism" as the greater evil, you do this because youre a vatnig or a lefty or a jew.prove me wrong.
>>18785472>slavery is when people work against their willok well America, France, Britain, The USSR, Italy, The Netherlands, China, and Japan all used slavery during WWII.
>>18779220The Soviet judges and one of the Americans wanted to execute him. I think even more egregious than him not being executed is only getting 20 years. I mean, Hess got life!
>>18786162Well no, the Axis unquestionably did the most horrible things
>>18779220He was more like an npc albeit one with a high iq (they exist).There are thousands of such men operating the cogs of whatever state they happen to work for unthinkingly. The reason your internet worked to make this post was a guy like Speer somewhere doing something to make it so.
>>18786993>Well no, the Axis unquestionably did the most horrible thingsNo they didnt, the most well documented, not the most prosecuted but the most well documented, and most horrific, were crimes committed by the Red Army against the people of Europe.There are no reports of Germans sawing off limbs or lightning women on fire using flares shoved into their anus.
>>18787487>There are no reports of Germans sawing off limbs or lightning women on fire using flares shoved into their anus.Chuds laugh off the concept of killing people in death camps as 'comically absurd' but accept stuff like this without question. There's reports of Germans using Russian children for blood transfusions then throwing them in a pit or killing them But no. Look it up yourself, especially the Japanese, And in terms of numberx far more to the axis
>>18787933"it's only true when it suits you", you are doing the exact same thing
>>18787933Speaking as a chud, I too disavow Mengele and Dirlewanger.I'm interested in your thoughts about Herr Rabe in Nanjing.
>>18787971>misses the point completely
>>18787972Rabe showed films and photographs of Japanese atrocities in lecture presentations in Berlin, and he wrote to Hitler, asking him to use his influence to persuade the Japanese to stop further violence. Rabe was detained and interrogated by the Gestapo; his letter was never delivered to Hitler.[15] Due to the intervention of Siemens, Rabe was released. He was allowed to keep evidence of the massacre (excluding films) but not to lecture or write on the subject again> I too disavow Mengele and Dirlewanger.That's cute, but try disavowing Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich the whole Nazi state
