What's going in the mind of a permabeg that causes them to be unable to progress in art?>be anon>draw every day>learn everything in anatomy books by Loomis, vilppu, hampton and watch Proko>memorise every landmark on the body>his art didn't improve but instead stay the same or got worse I don't understand. This person spent 4 years drawing every single day, he's a hardworking person (the opposite of nodraw), he took every advice to heart, tried everything. But for some reason, he still failed to improve. I just want to ask because I'm really hopeless right now. Nothing seems to work.
>>7964494You're getting better in my opinion. There's honestly an improvement in 4 years
>>7964494trying the same thing over and over leads to insanity. you must do everything in your power to try different strategies with an open mind
>>7964494I drew for more time, yet I am worse.There are things that I don't think can be truly learned, like having a sense of space, motor skills, memory skills, and creativity.
>>7964494>learn everything in anatomy books by Loomis, vilppu, hampton and watch Proko>memorise every landmark on the bodyevidently did neithermore importantly did not learn composition at all from the look of things
>>7964494no he didn't it's impossible to do all that and not improve even a little bit. he's lying to himself and to you. here's what anon actually did >skimmed resources or had them playing in the background>zombie copied illustrations, made no effort to internalize anything, ask himself questions while drawing -- e.g. really understand what the master's illustration was teaching him >made no effort to even put clothes on most of his figures, just zombie grinded while listening to music or something>never ever exited his mild comfort zone >all in all he "drew" every day, sure, for like 5 minutes if that
There is an improvement.But what you need now is to learn how to draw the thing in full, and not just assemble them part by part. Basically draw the full posture quickly as draft before you commit to a full sketch. You can try gestures, composition, plumb lines, etc.Instead of trying to draw from imagination, find a drawing that doesn't have too much detail and try to copy it. But don't copy line-for-line, try to go for the gestures or big shapes first.4 years is fine. 1-5 years is the expected first hurdle with these kinds of thing
I just don't put in the work. I can make excuses all day long and they all have a comforting grain of truth to them, but ultimately I know I could start putting in the work right now and I won't.
>>7964494The pose, shapes, and "ground sense" on the left are actually a lot better. So I assume that was a copy attempt.>learn everything in anatomy books by Loomis, vilppu, hampton and watch Proko>memorise every landmark on the bodyNeither of these claims are evident in the drawing on the right.Some people will claim they've read a book thoroughly. But what they actually did was look at the pictures, as if they were skimming through a video game manual.
I know the answer, but I prefer to just watch faggots suffer under the LORD's righteous and fair judgement
the first drawing is much better, how the fuck does this happen outside of an actual stroke and brain damage
>>7964494Cool, how's your art doing?
>>7964494I drew for six years and achieved nothing. Apparently, it's a lack of talent.
>>79644942022 was way better than 2026, you regressed
>>7964494What causes early art stagnation is the result of the permabeg not actually getting into the habit of drawing what he likes, not becoming a struggler, not focusing on fundamentals/subjects that will support other fundamentals/subjects, and not giving himself time to rest.To develop your prowess at art, you must have fun but also do what challenges you while also giving your brain time to recover. It's like Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta stagnates because he spends so much time training and not enough time resting. Goku knows that he has to rest hard and relax before he throws himself back into training.
>>7964494You lost that sense of rhythm (that cha-cha-cha.) On the left it's like you just smashed all the individual parts of human anatomy together without any regard to the fact that it's a living being. You have two types of intelligence, instinctual and logical, and they're constantly at war against each other. You have not been practicing your instinctual intelligence at all and have been letting it stagnate. If you're proficient in this instinctual intelligence, you SHOULDN'T be able to explain it your thought process behind it AT ALL. You USED to have an unexplainable awareness of how the body articulates itself. Your logical wolf bit your spiritual wolf in the jugular and made it DIE. DO SOMETHING TO WAKE IT BACK UP.
It can't be helped.
>>7964494nigga what is this shit, show full artworks not construction shit
>>7964677Same, but 8 years.I legitimately don't know of a single skill as unrelentingly fucking brutal as drawing, where you can put in so much effort and just get absolutely nothing in return. STEM is not like this. I don't think music or sports are like this.
>>7966013>>7964691If I showed you guys how much improved from 2023 to 2026 you would call me a liar, cheater and tell my to kms etc etc.Oh and I draw like once a week AT BEST... And take months long break....Its not really about talent lol... since I dont have any prior drawing experience either...
>>7964494Have you ever thought about maybe your chosen simplistic cartoony style is dogshit for what you might be capable of?
>>7964494>vilppu>wypipo don't season it's art ?
>>7966013It's funny that it's always self reported STEM people that also happen to struggle with doing Visual art.
>>7966053I do STEM for a living and I struggle with visual art incredibly, yeah. I don’t think it’s that surprising. Probably the brain architecture that makes you good at one makes you worse at the other
>>7966056I doubt it. More likely people hyper-focus on one aspect or way of thinking instead of getting a more balanced education. There's a reason art class is taught in elementary school in addition to mathematics and sciences. Unfortunately, that trend doesn't continue **adequately** past high school, because people view education as training for doing a job, which is just wrong.
>>7966066There’s also a reason why you can see clear as day as early as elementary school which kids are good at math, which kids are good at art, and which kids are just dumb as shit and aren’t good at anything.Do you believe in talent or no?
>>7966068I believe in talent, and I believe that talents are trained. I also think our society confuses "talent" with "predisposition" or more accurately, interest. I guess the real question is, why is hypothetical engineering student let's call him Chang, why is Chang pouring 12 hours a day into studying engineering and maths? Because that's his degree choice, that's what he wants to do as a job, that's what his parents encourage him to do, and so ultimately that is his interest. I claim that if Chang were to put in 12 hours each day of studying illustration and rendering, he wouldn't get as much out of it because he's not as interested in it; he doesn't see it as a lucrative career and while he likes the idea of "being someone who draws," on a subconscious level he doesn't believe that the opportunity cost of studying that is worth the tradeoff of not min-maxing into his lucrative engineering career. I think it's the same for everyone who says they "just aren't talented like some other people." They can't imagine the amount of work that those talented people put in to get to where they are today.
>>7966053I came from STEM and I do just fine. I guess you can say the stuff I did in STEM was closely related to perspective though in a sense.
>>7965109Its kinda embarrassing you wrote all of that without saying anything of significance, when a simple explanation would have been enough...There is no such thing a instinctual or logical blah blah bullshit you made up. There are rules to art. Know them, follow them, bend them however you like but the rules (aka fundies) remain the same.
>>79644942022Unfinished scribble2026Unfinished scribble Oh golly gee whizz. How can we ever disagnose this permabeggery?
>>7966112>There are rules to art.There are no rules outside specific schools or styles of art.
>>7966079I noticed a lot of talented Asian illustrators (Chinese, Korean) are in STEM fields. This "STEM vs Art" dichotomy is pretty fake and gay and only exists in westoid spheres. I think it's because here, we treat art more like a fashion statement and an identity rather than the core fundamental of being someone who creates art. Example: I want to be SEEN as someone who is an artist. I want others to perceive me as artsy and creative, and what I mean by that is the Hollywood trope of the creative quirky artist archetype. If I want to go all in on that image, the last thing I should do is study STEM-adjacent things, because that is not the image we have of the artsy tv/movie character.
>>7966170STEM stuff is seen as nerdy and rigid, and therefore anyone in STEM is incapable of being creative. It's that kind of dichotomy. People are more influenced by television and movies than they realize.
>>7966171No, they’re influenced by reality.Notice how all the AI jeets don’t know shit about art and seem to be physically incapable of understanding it?
>>7964494It depends on what you mean by taking the lessons to heart. Many say they read those books, but they actually really ONLY read them, rather than actually reading them the way they're intended - to be studied from.You say you studied anatomy from loomis, vilppu, etc, so do you have any of those studies on hand for us to look at?If you did actively study from those books, I'd suspect that you only did so in a lazy or half hearted way, rather than trying to be as accurate and faithful to the original reference material as possible.
There is a difference between studying resulting in "knowing" and studying resulting in understanding. You can memorize facts, formulas, data, etc, but at the end of the day not be able to do much more than regurgitate what you memorized, with maybe at best a small degree of synthesis. Understanding means you grasp the underlying reasoning behind the facts, formulas, data, what have you, so you don't have to focus as much on wrote memorization. You can study multiplication tables, 9 x 9 equals 81, but if you don't understand the reasoning, you won't be able to figure out 9 x 10 unless somebody tells you it equals 90, and you memorize it. Once you understand the concept, you can learn how to solve advanced multiplication problems by writing them out vertically, eventually learning even more advanced techniques and "tricks" to quickly solve complicated problems in your head, and ultimately reaching (via conceptual understandings and repetition) an instinctual feel for multiplying numbers that allow you to solve things extremely quickly.
>>7966185As for art, which is a million times more complex than multiplication, a lot of people struggle to progress past that first memorization phase, even if they read the words and study the diagrams of the more advanced concepts. They read the words, look at and copy the examples, think "OK, I get this," copy a whole bunch of references, but are never able to truly understand what they're doing, so when presented with the challenge of drawing something new, they can't readily synthesize what they've copied with a genuine conceptual understanding, and just wind up making at best a shitty regurgitation of something they copied. tl;dr permabegs never develop a meaningful "feel" for making quality art, while people with artistic talent almost insticntually develop a feel for quality drawing, even with relatively minimal actual study, and any actual study they do conduct is pretty quickly added to their working knowledge base as opposed to the in one braincell and out the other thing that happens with less talented artists.I think some with talent don't recognize that their brain just naturally understands what they're copying and learns on the fly as they copy and justdraw, and don't understand that for less talented artists, simply copying shit/drawing whatevs from their imagination will do fairly little for improving their art skill, and is more like brute forcing it through a series of what are ultimate memorization exercises as opposed to actual learning experiences.The ultimate blackpill though is the appeal blackpill, which is a separate talent from technical ability and/or talent.
>>7966179AI isn't really STEM though. Meaning, any retard can download whatever program to generate AI images without being in a STEM program. No technical knowledge required to follow a youtube tutorial to set up the program.
>>7964513>There are things that I don't think can be truly learned, like having a sense of space, motor skills, memory skills, and creativity.This. It's having the right brain for it. I don't have it.People often go "I wish I was more talented". No, what you should be wishing for is the ability to learn things better.I suck at learning, so I will never be a good artist.
>>7964494
>>7964494>>>/vg/570895552
>>7967482I mean. Some people literally have a clinical learning disability. But if you don't have that, all of those things are trainable.
>>7964494He didn't break into the third dimension
>>79644962 is a smaller number than 6
Lack of talent and genetic spatial awareness
What is STEM? Lurker here I don't visit /ic/ much.
>>7968633You should really google it. But people in this thread are referring to people who go into degrees focusing on Science Technology Engineering and Mathematics, or S.T.E.M., for short.
>>7964494I can learn about building bridges doesn't mean i know how to do it kek. It's same for most people... there are guys who did draw a box like entire fucking thing (psycho's) then they went back and guess what they learned ? Nothing at all. Arbiter of Wolf is a great example.That guy literally works his ass off and yet he is unable to draw anything normally. He did draw a box at least few parts of it, he listens to other pros, he uses construction and it's useless for him. You know why ? Because that motherfucker isn't actually listening when somebody explains to you how to use vanishing points in perspective, you listen then you pick up fucking pencil and go immediately practice then draw anything using that until it became a second nature. If it isn't you are sitting on your ass and try to understand it until it fucking clicks. You simply don't go draw fucking characters or buildings until you understand how shit works and if it doesn't then more research more drawing and repeat like crazy.
>>7967483Love your work. Same you fell to the fur menace though. Hope you feel better soon.
>>7966053Same>>7966066>art class is taught in elementary schoolNot for me>>7967510But how?
>>79674832023 peak soul.
>>7968635What does all that have to do with drawing?
>>7966053American STEM students tend to struggle with visual art because they quickly gave up on it due to finding little immediate success with it in their youth or due to lacking effective teaching and support in their teenage years.This is not the case for European or East Asian students who excel at STEM because either their parents tend to pay for art lessons the minute they see their kids doing well at art or they have access to disposable pop art that they can copy from thanks to their respective comics scenes.
>>7968762The stereotype is that they can't draw because they have no creativity from doing such rigid and rigorous discipline. This of course is not true when you can see a lot of talented asian illustrators happen to be in STEM fields:>>7968763>>7966170
I have wondered something.I generally believe that I am garbage and at best can never improve beyond middling levels in any skill I dedicate time to.If I were to do the work anyway, I wonder if I would ever get good at drawing, or if my self-doubt would become a self fulfilling prophecy and I would never be able to move beyond some low /beg/ plataeu
>>7969201If this is genuinely your best effott practice you're either retarded or you're sabotaging yourself through weaponized incompetence.
>>7969466ok people have said similar things to me before but I dont understand WHY and no one will explain it. Yes my lines are wobbly. Idk how to fix that besides just drawing more. Yes my lines connecting to the vanishing points arent perfectly straight. I'm just free handing on a tablet.I thought I was doing good when I learned about the concept of vanishing points and one/two/three point perspective. How if you project the edges of a box past their boundaries they eventually converge into these points.
>>7969609For example, the first thing you should have done is just use the straight-line tool to draw the horizon line rather than just putting two random dots. That's fundamentally how the exercise works, you're practicing a very basic scene where you're separating the ground from the sky. That's not something you should have missed. You may just struggle learning this on your own and probably need one-on-one training. Whatever, we all got shit we suck at and need help with. Most people wouldn't even know basic math if we didn't dedicate their entire childhood to learning it against their will.
>>7966171This is not really true in fine art or technical art, STEM advantages artists both in their art and perceptually to institutions depending on the type of work they do. Sculpture is full of STEM majors.
>>7969201Helps if you are hyper critical of every piece you make. Like every time you draw something, point out what you liked and didn't like about the piece and keep it in mind for the next time you draw it. It also helps if when you sketch something out, you do it lightly and with a soft brush or pencil, so when you have the basic idea of the thing go back over it with a harder and darker stroke.For the perspective sketch, it is really difficult to tell what the fuck is going on. Lots of lines and the general idea might be there but it is lost in the weeds and looks like a schitzo mess. Keep at it though
>>7969609The most important art book that people like you should read is Human Action by Ludvig von MisesYou can download it for free in audiobook format here:https://mises.org/podcasts/human-action-treatise-economicsYou don't have to buy it, or pirate it, or even read the text yourself
>7969201Don't feed this schizo. He doesn't even try and just waste everyones that try to help him time.
>>7968765>This of course is not true when you can see a lot of talented asian illustrators happen to be in STEM fieldThere is another potential wrinkle to this.Asian curriculum integrates geometry at every level of math, and stress visual proofs for even advanced problems. Now I'm not saying drawing and math are the same, but the mindset required for visual problem solving almost certainly helps both.
>>7967483Excuse me, only I can post my lack of progress.>>7968718I posted that because i havent done a full drawing of my OC this year, that packrat is from a self-imposed challenge to draw characters from games ive played in maid outfits.>>7968721Thats the one you like most?
>>7969624>The first thing you should have done is just use the straight-line tool to draw the horizon line rather than just putting two random dots. ok thank you. That is something actually usable. I was just eyeballing two points along the horizon.Is this any better?>>7969798>He doesn't even try and just waste everyones that try to help him time.I dont know who you are but I think you have me confused for someone else because I always take advice given to me. as long as its actual usable advice.>>7969794>the most important art book to read is an economics bookfunny joke anon
>>7969914>funny joke anonIf your problem had something to do with art you could have found a solution already.
>>7969914rotate the box in the middle by a few degrees, i'm honestly wondering if you actually know what vanishing points are based on your first image.
>>7974807>rotate the box in the middle by a few degrees,The guy's is still learning the concept, he doesn't know how to do that yet. The only thing he needs to do is play around with it and see what happens when you place objects in different parts of the scene. What happens to the tall block on the left if it's closer to the right VP? What if a block is completely above or below the horizon?
>>7964494Something about this art just irritates me and i don't know why exactly.
>>7964517Yes because they all rely on the same fundamental talent that no one acknowledges. The figures, examples, simplifications etc. illustrated in any book on drawing are fundamentally useless if you can't actually copy them. You are essentially doing the same thing that you would do when drawing an object from life, you are turning what you see into motions with your hands. Many people are completely unable to do this directly. They can memorize symbols, even relatively complex or 3d-looking symbols. But they fundamentally lack the ability to move beyond symbol drawing.
>>7975689Reminds you of the frustration of failure?
>>7964494>4 years just to get worse
>>7968763Incredible cope.Bizarre concept of life un Europe.Unsure about Asia.
Do three things well and with intentional goals instead of trying to flit around doing 10 things. And I don't man courses. Draw three cubes really well instead of 20 shitty ones. Start thinking when drawing.
>>7976488>Start thinking when drawing Literally impossible for a permabeg
>>7966074You confuse talent with skill.After being on this board for over a year I am convinced talent is real and antitalent even moreso (and the latter linked to low IQ).
>>7966074Anybody who has had a natural skill and understanding of something they do not give two shits about can tell you that interest and skill/talent are not inherently linked.
Bump
>>7982096Why? Why did you bump this thread?
>>7964494imagine going to a home depot and buying a bunch of power toolsyou go home and think to yourself, "now, what to build?"
>>7964613You can't assess a person's skill level by comparing individual drawings, there's gonna be variation in quality unless someone has improved their understanding of art to such a degree they can produce consistently better drawings
