>>8017431
This place is your community

>>8017431
that's not what a community focused on improvement looks like
shut up and draw

>>8017788
It's dead and the people who are left don't draw.

>>8017803
You are what's left, anon.

>>8017803
>ignores the draw threads
>Only goes into discussion threads to whine about the lack of people who draw

>>8017803
It's a bit slower than it used to be but /beg/ is still pretty fast and actually the skill level there has gone up. More people posting more finished works of higher quality instead of just endless shitflinging over Loomis like it was in years past

>>8017807
>>8017818
>>8017821
Alright, if you say it's different now I'll take your word for it. This is my first time posting in a year.

>>8017827
I think the board is in a comfy spot now. We really do have a lot of people who actually draw and the AI threads have died down a lot. Just need to make the board about 20% faster and we’d be golden

>>8017827
I'm saying you're a ngmi retard with zero self awareness.
>18 months of drawing
>says he doesn't post on /ic/ and experiences no progress
>claims /ic/ doesn't draw but asks it for communities focused on improving
>btw a focus on improvement means everyone committing to spoonfeed my retarded questions

>>8017431
I like DAD just as a general art community though it's not really hardcore improvement as you may want
People post their stuff but VC is empty most of the time
Marc Brunet's discord always has people in the VC drawing but I think they're fags

File: IMG_5194.jpg (2.14 MB, 4032x3024)

2.14 MB JPG

Hey man I’m in the same boat and I’d be happy to create a discord with you although I’m a technically handicapped trad artist with the goal of creating an IP one day. Right now I’m just trying to improve my finished drawings week to week. I’d like to have something more than just an echo chamber of positivity though and I’m not sure exactly what value we would get out of a 2 man discord.. What are you looking for specifically in an online art community?

I've had sum nice chats and motivation in the unofficial Krita discord, but you gotta be nice to the teh newbz

>>8017991
Just dropping in to say that this work is really great. Well the face needs a little work. But the rest of it is great, you’ve got a good thing going

>>8017991
A trad only server could be fun

File: IMG_5157.jpg (3.3 MB, 4032x3024)

3.3 MB JPG

>>8018041
Thank you, here’s my last weeks drawing. I think my anatomy and rendering is more solid this week. Next week I hope to keep these qualities with a more dynamic pose.

>>8017835
I'm not OP

Just make a discord server in your living room

File: portrait tilt.png (2 MB, 1436x1751)

2 MB PNG

>>8017991
>>8017431
>>8018062

If you guys wanted to make a trad focused discord server for improvement and inspiration, I'd be happy to join in too!

>>8017991
>>8018062
>>8018510
Trad chads unite

>>8017979
VC is gay in general

>>8017979
>>8018619
I’ve met some surprisingly normal people in VC in addition to weirdos. Discord is like the shopping mall for zoomers and younger, everyone hangs out there, so you’ll get a mix of all types of people

>>8017991
>>8018136
Anon… rotate your photos…

>>8018643
I've poor luck then

It still kinda blows my mind that /ic/ is the last internet art community outside of discords.
There are some subreddits too but they all suck ass and they’re super hugboxy, the skill level there makes /beg/ look /adv/

>>8018684
It does seem like a lot of places that could be called an "art community" are meant more for people to show off ther work and build a following, rather than talk about art in general. One of /ic/'s major advantages is, that you can't really become a popular artist here. As in, if you keep posting, it's possible some people will like your work, but there is no hierarchy and no algorhithm. Someone's very first drawing is in the same position as a professional artist's masterpiece. And in general, being anonymous prevents a lot of the annoying drama that is common with social media artists, for some reason. This place is not perfect, but I like not being shilled anyone's Patreon, not seeing people vaguely bitch about each other all the time and actually seeing people's thoughts instead of cute little snarky comebacks.

>>8018689
When you think about it, companies are the most common type of community in existence today. If you’re starting a community and it’s not a company, its probability of success is one per infinity, and if there’s a 4chan general about the topic, it’s basically zero. Whereas if it’s a company it will probably survive and outlive you.

>>8018689
You still get recognized here when posting your art

>>8018767
Yes, but I do think that is different from being a microcelebrity Twitter with like 500 000 followers. Even if someone here gets recognized, you don't see an exact number telling you how many people recognize them, you know? I guess the difference is, that being known here is like being known at a bar you regularly visit, while in other art communities, it's like making it as a celebrity in a sea of nobodies.

>>8018684
its because to even decide to draw and stick with it, you need to be fucked up in the head. People on 4chan already came to terms with not being normal.

>>8018800
Why is it necessary to be fucked in the head?

>>8018813
drawing is the hardest and least rewarding activity you can think of. Aside from straight up self harm or things like that. You draw only because you have a compulsion to express yourself

>>8018813
Even Aristotle noticed that creative people tended to be depressed or have other mental issues. We’re dealing with ancient archetypes that go back millennia.
Fundamentally, art itself is by fucked up people, for fucked up people. If everything is great and the world is perfect then you’ll just be satisfied with reality as it is and you won’t feel compelled to produce elaborate escapist fantasies. Art is the expression of a yearning, the desire for something more.
You could also say that some art, especially in ancient times, had a mystical or religious purpose rather than a personal one. But mystics too tend to be dissatisfied world-rejecting types. They’re turning away from this world to focus on the beyond.

File: 1771170351297166.png (189 KB, 660x388)

189 KB PNG

>>8018814
>drawing is the hardest and least rewarding activity you can think of.
What? There's no way anyone comes to this conclusion unless they're permanently stubborn or somehow never recieved any dopamine from drawing.

>>8018838
>somehow never received any dopamine from drawing
Do you know where you are?
Have you ever read the posts here?

File: 1760131744852951.jpg (210 KB, 773x1000)

210 KB JPG

>>8017431
The problem I have found with discord communities is the pressure that comes with it, which leads me to being increasingly frustrated and eventually crash and burn out
this is just my experience, could be different from yours

>>8018899
I always post my shittiest 2 minutes MS Paint trash alongside with my art which took days to make. People love seeing drawings, even when they're not perfect. It's all fine.

>>8019231
I love redlining other people's drawings more than drawing itself.

File: 1786396812043936.png (2.51 MB, 1887x1000)

2.51 MB PNG

Violet Clovers is open again, apparently the old admin roped and the server is excellent again

https://discord.gg/yaBwpGMg2

>>8019417
>the server is excellent again
(X)Doubt

>>8018701
companies do not live longer than a toddler with cancer on average

>>8018838
you didnt even draw the image you attached, you just like the idea of drawing

File: 1756794029976062.gif (3.29 MB, 276x648)

3.29 MB GIF

>>8019424
>you just like the idea of drawing
not true

>>8019447
ok this is epic

>>8019417
Who is the current admin?

>>8018689
>being anonymous prevents a lot of the annoying drama that is common with social media artists, for some reason.
that's a lie and you know it

>>8019498
A lot of it, but not all of it. If someone dislikes you, they can complain about you, but they can't really go through everything you're written and drawn, pick out the stuff they dislike, put it in a callout document and tell all their friends to never talk to you because you're Evil. Conflicts here tend to be more isolated, rather than blown out and dramatised.

>>8018814
>drawing not being rewarding and fun
What a shit-ass take. Drawing is very fun, especially when you really start being able to draw big tittie anime goth hotties.
Jokes aside, get real, dude. If you don't enjoy drawing, then why the fuck even begin?

>>8019447
If you’re drawing all these yourself then you are turbo based.
If these are AI then I despise you.

>>8019708
>drawing is fun when you start-
so you're still new. You'll understand when you get out of /beg/

>>8019417
lol

>>8019417
Is this actually good or is this a troon thing?

>>8021222
its alright for people who just want to post work and see other peoples stuff. personally i dont like servers where channels are filled with funny gifs but for some thats the whole purpose of discord, i always say
>just see and decide for yourself

>>8017431
What are some good servers to post porn on and get commissions?

File: 2353525.jpg (8 KB, 261x216)

8 KB JPG

>>8017431
What actually makes an art community good? What do you want out of it?
A scenario I have seen before is people post their work and they just get some reactions in the form of emojis and compliments, and that led the server to just stagnate and die, there was no discussion or critique to be had

every artist discord is a clique ran by losers who think they are god's most special boy because they can draw anime eyes slightly better than their peers.

>>8021976
I think everyone will have different answers, it depends on what you need and where you are in your journey.
This might be a hot take but I think “critique” is overrated for anyone who’s not totally delulu about the quality of their own work. You can check yourself if you’re making basic mistakes in perspective or proportions or whatever, and if you’re incapable of doing that then you’re not looking for “critique”, you’re looking for a private tutor.
Biggest thing imo that a community provides for beginners is accountability, and a sense that you’re not going at it totally alone. It’s important and very motivating to see people on the same journey as you, so that you feel obligated to show your work regularly to them, and they’ll also be honest with you if you’re getting lazy. If you try to go it totally alone then it’s easy to feel like none of it matters and you’ll just gradually fall off, unless you have super strong internal motivation.

>>8021996
you're ngmi if you need social motivation.
an art community only truly matters if there are people much better than you in it who you can learn from and if it's actually focused on real art discussion instead of social coping.

>for beginners
ngmi if you think you're going to be in this category for long enough to pick a community based on how good it is specifically for beginners.

>>8021986
this is why you need the community to be radically against social posturing and actually be based on building skill.

File: 15666364132541.png (120 KB, 748x616)

120 KB PNG

all the /ic/ discords are barren wastelands because everyone is afraid to talk, most just farm, the sane people avoid them while the nutjobs ready to pounce at the faintest smell of blood run them.

you can't fix a people problem unless you remove the people.

>>8022005
Crab.
Art communities wouldn’t exist in the first place if people didn’t find value in them

>>8017431
Here is one that has been alive for 5 years and has daily VC's. It's IC related: discord.com/invite/R3NtN4Sbch

>>8022787
the question isn't about what people ""find"" valuable, it's about what is valuable in the first place. social motivation as a core part of your art life is not valuable, it's a cope.

>>8019417
great server, a bit on the quiet side but got very good critique

>>8019488
power vacuum left by the magic man has left many fighting for the throne, total anarchy

>>8021976
Artists don't talk about art, they only talk about THEIR art.

>>8021976
>what makes a good art community?
People who draw and that don't care about silly social games.

Remember; all the sane people are avoiding and hiding from "social groups" because it's not worth the risk.

>>8023557
What tangible risks are there from interacting with groups? I naturally avoided those things so I want to know for when I decide to join any group.

>>8023577
you get typical trolls who just spam and spam and try to get a reaction
then you have autists who cannot behave
then you have politicsbrained retards who cannot take a joke
then you have the gays and women who cannot get laid so we have to suffer their mental illness

all those groups will try to skin you alive if you don't validate them
also they merely use art to gain attention and they hate drawing

yeah how fun it would be to join any social circle where you have to levitate above bomb shells least you attract one of those groups

man, i wonder why no one talks anymore

I'm the kind of anon who'd love to yap while drawing/animating/programming but it feels like nobody else, even on servers dedicated to that, is ever doing those things. mostly they just play some gay friendslop instead.

>>8023602
What would you even talk about? It sounds so strange to me that people do this.

yeah bruh fr talkin is so cringe like fr look at how nonchalant i am so cool rite? fr unc mad he still cares like bruh is not that serious fr 6 7

>>8023579
Internet relationships are not real, let the dysgenics rot, not your problem

the only good community is the one where none of you are present

>>8017431
the best thing I learned is that all you really need is feedback, and if you're networking, you need to learn who to avoid to survive

>>8023959
>you need to learn who to avoid to survive
How do you learn this skill?

I feel like joining a server so I can post my figure session drawings and paintings. I don't want to share them in a server full of people who don't do art.

I join servers just so that I can yap in between drawing seshs

File: 1787272036803900m.jpg (176 KB, 660x1024)

176 KB JPG

>>8017431
Itagakis art is just built different.....

>>8023614
There's a lot that goes into things I do, especially from scratch: The thinking process, composition, the best way to do thing x and how not to repeat mistake y, what kind of palette I use and why et cetera.

I usually talk to myself while working but It'd be nice to have someone else comment on my ramblings every once in a while.

>>8024271
Makes sense, I do record myself in a "lets play" style sometimes, I guess I just didn't think of doing that with actual people around to talk to.

>>8021976
>What actually makes an art community good?

An artist community that reads books and not just comics/mangas, if you are looking for people who can have discussions.

You can have an art community that can draw a billion variation of anime gurl in cute poses, but all you will get is like, a bunch of ooos and ahhs and maybe another coomer follow. It's essentially an echo chamber.

>>8023579
>then you have politicsbrained retards who cannot take a joke

This is fine. The only people who have a problem with politics are people who don't have much of a view to contribute anyway. But there's a huge difference in people who engage in politics and those that engage in ad hominems.

I also like people who are sarcastic in politics but discussions are rarely sensed over the internet, since everyone is getting offended these days.

Nah, i don't engage in politics or talks because its like sportsballs for one side and religion for the other, when it is all a circus.

>>8024511
I sometimes participate because I can draw when I think about certain ideas. Plus the people around me like to talk alot and I soak opinions in like a sponge.

Makes my characters feel more realistic when I take from reality.

>>8017431
Generally, people that want to make friends or seek communities tend to only talk about themselves at any possible given chance and will ignore everything unless they can talk about themselves.
People should learn to look out for such people, because they might not be dangerous, but they just want your attention and will never give anything back.

>>8024520
Retard.
I don’t really like talking about myself because I KNOW how fucked up I am and I know it would just come off as weird and offputting.
I want people to come to me and tell me about their problems and then I give them advice and they’re grateful and impressed with how wise I am. Still selfish, yes, but it’s not “talking about myself”

>>8024520
Could you categorize that as soft-narcissism? Also knew a lot of people like that.
They would yap and yap but never say anything of substance, just talk about themselves as if everyone should be in awe of their existence and their every bowel movement.

>>8024520
man i cant stand retards like that either
a couple years ago i tried to make friends with people that """"""wanted friends"""""

literally they dropped their entire life stories and left
like nigga no wonder you aint got no friends when all you want is suck yo own dick

If you’re in a position of actively “looking for friends” then you’re just damaged goods and people will avoid you for precisely that reason. Sad but true. People who don’t have something seriously wrong with themselves already have friends.

File: 1772626761155640.gif (58 KB, 220x124)

58 KB GIF

>>8024520
>>8024528
fucking this holy shit

beginners really are the worst, join a server, shit it up with constant asking for crits while your stuff looks abysmal

>join a server
>begs asking for crits
>see a couple comments telling them what to fix
>ignored
>one comment goes "omg thats so good"
>beg instantly replies
yeah friends i dont think these filthy begs want criticism

>>8019417
The link expired. I'm a trad artist interested in joining.

>>8024149
you are the cancer that permeates art servers

the biggest faggots are those who babble more than they draw. btw a sure sign of a shit drawserver is whether it has channels like 'memes' or 'off topic''

>>8024577
Link works for me

>>8022207
You're not even wrong, it's better to be friends with people who buy your art

>>8024577
>>8024827
Yep just worked for me too

>>8022924
why is the skill level there so low?

>>8026968
it's a recruiting place for the pro server which is not public

File: i-guess-bro.png (196 KB, 498x317)

196 KB PNG

>>8026977

>>8022924
How long will that invite last

File: 1505356747015.png (294 KB, 716x402)

294 KB PNG

>>8022924
DO NOT JOIN.
the honest breakdown is:
- average skill level is shockingly low
- 90% of the activity there is retards posting things they saw on twitter
- almost immediately after joining, the fucking server owner DM'd me to talk about his favorite capeshit character and how much he loves her. without a doubt he has schizophrenia or autism.

this place is a collection of morons. literally the bottom of the barrel of this already awful board. fuck you

>>8019417
>roped
serves you right for banning me for no reason
>>8023929
ask me how i can tell you're an insufferable person

>>8023929
you're not wrong, but they make their rot everyone elses problem that it becomes impossible to do anything over the internet without having them actively try to pester real people

>>8027837
filtered

>>8027837
Thank you for the review.
Avoiding that troon sewer and even called the internet police.

>>8027837
POST 3 ARTWORKS

>>8027837
can confirm
>the fucking server owner DM'd me to talk about his favorite capeshit character and how much he loves her
it's not a server owner afaik, just a pet schizo (underage+transgender)

what kind of place would (you) like?

>>8027837
>no screencap of the "DM'd me to talk about his favorite capeshit character and how much he loves her."
>instead a shitty reaction image
nodraw larp

>>8027837
So it’s just another troon gathering masquerading as a (insert hobby interest) discord. Many such cases

>>8027837
i swear every time someone talks about discord servers, admins or mods here, its always some made up bullshit that has literally no proof to it. where are screenshots? at this point its just calling people names without backing anything up

>>8028878
nah, its way funnier to expose bad people by making them paranoid
you want screenshots? ok here you go

https://voca.ro/12zcTJedy8Oz

>>8027837
>things that never happened
I see the filters for nodraws works wonders on Discord.
Imagine being completely incapable of posting even a single drawing.

>you just say bad things about our secret club because you didn't want to join the quack house by posting your works
holy coperoni
literal scenarios in their heads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvnIJFynFxU

>>8029225
>>8029162
>>8028878
so how's the damage control going?

File: 13998765664656.gif (2.99 MB, 355x201)

2.99 MB GIF

>>8027837
post is such a trvke that it sent two whole discords into defcon 1
there is one message
>"omg i can't believe this anon. Do we know them? Are they one of ours?"
one other message says
>"someone keep an eye on that post its prolly a schizo we kicked. thinking its metorin or kittyklat"


absolutely fucking insane

>8029242
>8029250
>samefagging
>can't post screenshots
Sad. There's nothing in there that says any of that. Sorry you got filtered. Maybe a few more years of drawing will get you out of prebeg.

File: 1760571197208663.gif (3.92 MB, 477x477)

3.92 MB GIF

>NOOO UR SAMEFAGGING POST SCREENSHOTS SAD! U JUST DIDNT GET IN YOU GOT FILTERED UR PREBEG
literal defcon 0 turbocoping holy melty

File: d6f95eef719fbf8efef930f61(...).jpg (958 KB, 1214x1720)

958 KB JPG

>discord

>>8029339
>he posted it
RIP
thank you for your sacrifice, anon

File: image (11).png (303 KB, 630x558)

303 KB PNG

any places for 3D anthro stuff? or atleast adjacent

File: 1788033690238727.mp4 (3.93 MB, 540x540)

3.93 MB MP4

>>8029339
so this is /ic/'s janny huh?

>>8029339
Are you retarded? He isn't a moderator, and these aren't even direct messages sent to you, it's just some random autist posting in the generals. Imagine lying like this.

>>8029347
and who do you think you can convince by accusing other of random shit?
its over, pack it up and delete your server, sociopath

File: 1679438424236554.png (379 KB, 622x641)

379 KB PNG

>>8017991
>>8018136
Holy shit boobies!!!!! :DDDDD
I LOVE THE WAY YOU DRAW TITTIES

File: 1498286489039.gif (143 KB, 246x238)

143 KB GIF

>>8029339
>The quality of ic servers
Incredible

>>8029348
You literally lied about some random faggot being the server owner and sending you direct messages after you joined.
When asked for screenshots you post random messages that weren't even directed to you.

That's a swing and a miss xister, fucking lmao.

File: 1787265748555549.jpg (39 KB, 915x763)

39 KB JPG

>BUT YOU LIIIEED AAAAH IM TELLING THE TRUTH WAAAAAAAH
LMAO this actual retard believes he can just damage control by calling anyone a liar
your behavior is suspicious af and everyone who sees it knows, you autistic tranny

cry about it

File: 15871132658469.png (77 KB, 227x257)

77 KB PNG

>>8029339
that discord is pretending to stay calm to filter out the mole and ready to remove anyone who speaks
absolute fucking nuked into the stratosphere holy shit anon, you absolute legend

>>8029352
why would i give you the DMs? you'd just use it to ask jenny johnny who i am and have me blocked. what does it feel like to have 35 iq? keep seething moron

File: 1785616387453069.jpg (229 KB, 660x635)

229 KB JPG

>no rebuttle
Love to see it. Still waiting on that direct message from the server owner of him talking about some random capeshit, like you claimed.

>>8029357
>makes claim
>doesn't prove it
>his source is some random fucking user posting in a general
KEK

holy cope

holy retard

File: 1716178253170889.png (105 KB, 237x319)

105 KB PNG

anon doesn't need to prove himself because i can confirm that and no one needs to prove shit to a random seething trooner
>inb4 more samefag accusations or more schizophrenic episodes
kill yourself

File: 1773729156765100.jpg (81 KB, 432x409)

81 KB JPG

>samefaggot melty
>still can't prove it
Kek, love to see it.
Hang yourself.

>still seething
come back in 15 years maybe i'll prove it to you

>Grown ass man still acting like a queer teen edgelord
2016 called bro.

>n-no u
Next time don't make false claims and a thread wide meltdown over an inability to prove them, faggot.

>>8027837
>>8029339
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>8029374
you are an embarrassment and the type of person people will quickly block out which is probably why you need to come here.

File: 1488849812924.jpg (127 KB, 473x690)

127 KB JPG

>>8029358
>his source is some random fucking user posting in a general
random user? this one user is 35% of your server's activity. more active than any other user in the entire server combined.

KEK

>>8029339
>>8027837
Discord trannies in shambles

>>8029382
Hit dogs holler faggot. But please, keep projecting

Someone needs to make a screenshot of this thread and the seething tranny calling anyone a liar

like that actually means something when he doesn't even provide any proof himself LMAO

I think he still thinks I'm that other anon lol

>>8029386
You are a liar. Posting some random autist isn't some server owner sending you direct DMs about capeshit, like you claimed.

and who the fuck is (you), nigga?

>>8029386
i believe you

>>8029386
Based on the obsessive reactions and inane accusations i am more inclined to believe >>8029339 since i also know how cancerous these """"art""""" servers are.

>>8029393
I have no horse in this race besides shitposting, but art discords are really just safe spaces for incels and degenerates who couldn't function in normal society; yes, I am including "le chuds" because no one irl likes you faggots either lol.

>"i actually dont care! fuck you incel chuds 4channers"
wow thats crazy

>>8029397
>art discords are really just safe spaces for incels and degenerates who couldn't function in normal society
So where do people who can function in normal society go?

>if you're on discord you're a degenerate, if you're don't want to join a discord you're a jealous prebeg who actually wants to join but can't fork out drawings to mentally ill degenerates
these are olympic levels of mental gymnastic

>tells others to not join discord
>starts boxing with ghosts when others agree with him
Is this guy fucking retarded?

File: FDdoHp3XMAgQUo_.jpg (128 KB, 850x851)

128 KB JPG

>>8029402
...Real life? friends? motherfucker the only opinions that should matter are the people YOU care about. No wonder you retards are so fucking mental, you need the attention of degenerates to feel validation lmao.

Imagine if you had spent this time drawing

you don't draw while posting to take breaks inbetween drawings as to draw the whole day?
maybe thats just a you problem

>>8024520
i'm kind of the complete opposite of this. except i still don't have any friends.

>>8019417
lots of skilled artists but needs more life

>>8022924
very weird people inside, got dm'd by someone and asked what my "allegiance" is

the boring truth is that it's mostly the same people in ic adjacent servers
seen one, seen them all

>>8019417
>>8029339
The dichotomy of man. All ic servers are represented in this alone. A slow server of great artists or an active one of schizos and retards.

You, the reader, what will you choose anon? You always have the choice to turn around. The door to the real world is right behind you.

File: 1782.png (425 KB, 465x464)

425 KB PNG

wheres the link for art barbarians

i really wanna make a server for people that haven't fit in on the other servers shared here and implement some stricter rules to avoid nodraw spergs

but i guess the servers with no morons are less fun lol

File: cha.png (1.72 MB, 1587x935)

1.72 MB PNG

Old invite link has expired so I'll leave this one with you.

https://discord.gg/g8FQT7bGj

There's an ongoing art collaboration where you can paint a character (current theme is post apo) and it will be added into a big canvas. Aside from that, we have drawpiles, figure drawing sessions and the server is generally about keeping a high standard - It's tailored towards intermediate level artists.

If you're looking for a chill art group and you don't suffer from severe mental retardation, chances are you'll feel at home on Violet Clovers™

>>8029339
i dunno the details but half of this seems ironic (performative, to be more specific). are you unfamiliar with the discourse and behavior in waifufag spaces?

>>8029581
If you want to see this several hundred times per week, ironically or not, you deserve to be in that server

>>8029652
I never said I endorsed it or wanted to see more of it.

Also why'd it get deleted

its a trap
if you join now you will be seen as the anons who have been talking badly about the discords

Remember; if you are in other servers or even paid for things on your profile, you're risking your account when some legitimately mentally ill individual might want to fuck with you for extremely dumb or malicious reasons or feel justified in fucking with you because you said something you didn't like.