To gatekeep the hobby. Obviously this failled because of the invention of AI gen images but the boxes meme has been a thing all pro artists use to keep normies out. The one thing normies lack though is imagination.

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>>8072354
It's called grifting. What makes more money? Someone who gets good at drawing by learning the proper methods and moving on?
Or someone preforming a ritualistic form of hazing they think will make them good, but it doesn't so they're stuck in a perpetual feedback loop of infinite course memberships grind, where whatever little money they have left is constantly siphoned out because they'll never make it, they're not supposed to make it, they're supposed to be a paypiggy for course niggers and mentorships taught by subhuman retards and shilled to death by brainless fucking morons that lap up the next big thing their grifter shoves down their fat fucking gullet.

>>8072354
Because (most) artist aren't drawing stick men, or drawing circles to make the head, or drawings mannequins for every figure, or any other of those things taught in the books or videos.
They've gotten good enough where they intuit those things, and no longer need to draw every step in order to benefit from the techniques.

There's also something to be said about how some methods may work for some, but not for others. This dude may hate boxes, and fair enough, but they worked for Bridgman and were how he primarily taught his student to think of the figure and its parts.
One man's yuck, is another man's yum.

However, I will completely agree with that guy that drawing hundreds of random floating boxes, or books full of circles, or whatever other stupid shit 'drawing exercises' are being preached, are going to completely destroy someone's will to continue drawing, and likely stunt their drawing abilities.
Better to draw a crappy figure made of boxes, then to draw a bunch of floating 'in perspective' boxes.

>>8072354
Because construction is the only way for normal people to draw from imagination.

People who can draw without it are an anomaly. They are either so talented or so experienced that they don't need it anymore.

>>8072372
this is the only place on the internet ive heard people push this idea that artists have gatekept art. where did this made up bullshit come from?

>>8072517
the first time i saw that excuse was when ai was blowing up, it was every other reply on twitter
retards will always make up an excuse for why they can't do something than own up to it, probably ego related

>>8072517
I've heard it elsewhere. There are people who actively try to give bad advice and lead budding artists down bad directions, to take out the future 'competition'. Granted, I've heard people gloat about doing this sort of stuff on here more than anywhere else, but that doesn't change the fact that I have seen it elsewhere.

>>8072517
I don't know who said it, but that is the conclusion you reach when you try to correlate many patterns:
>people who shouldn't teach sell courses
>all the courses are said to be for beginners
>the courses are not good, and sometimes for intermediate (not beginner as advertised)

If you try to force a connection, all this is to keep you down, buying beginner courses forever, generating a source of passive income while preventing the competition of new emerging artists.

>>8072517
It's not gatekeeping but more like trying to see a product to retards.
You can't learn to have talent. Either you have it or you don't. So any advice is redundant since a person with actual talent will always be better than you anyway.

>>8072526
Drawing has nothing to do with "talent" but strong spatial awareness and visual memory. Some people were born with a knack for it, but it's something anyone can develop and refine provided they dedicate themselves to it, usually by working with clay and/or obsessively drawing with intent.

>>8072354
I honestly blame the push for boxes on everyone in the community developing the misconception that drawing from imagination is like a level you can reach in a video game by blindly grinding.

That's retarded because "drawing from imagination" is really just memory/cognitive/imaginative (etc) drawing. If you draw a dog with references a thousand times, you can draw the dog from pure memory alone. The more you observe and study, the more it becomes second nature when you recall it. Hence why you need to draw EVERYTHING

>>8072354
There are plenty of good answers in this thread but this one is missing:
Because whenever someone tells you to "just draw" you throw a temper tantrum. So you are fucked either way. Get another hobby.

>>8072531
>That's retarded because "drawing from imagination" is really just memory/cognitive/imaginative (etc) drawing. If you draw a dog with references a thousand times, you can draw the dog from pure memory alone. The more you observe and study, the more it becomes second nature when you recall it. Hence why you need to draw EVERYTHING
That is literally grinding, you twat.

>>8072523
>and sometimes for intermediate (not beginner as advertised)
The fact that you say this tells me that nothing is ever good for you. Time to get another hobby anon.

>I don't know who said it, but that is the conclusion you reach when you try to correlate many patterns
that excuse falls apart when you see other new artists improving but when approached with that reality, another convenient excuse pops up
>they're talented
genuinely, this kind of person that endlessly searches for excuses needs to go away and take up something brainless like mowing a lawn or sweeping up garbage

>>8072591
Literally everyone jokes about the intermediate courses not existing, retard

>>8072608
Here's another joke for you: art has a clear-cut-at-the-joints beginner, intermediate, and master levels in education.
It's a joke because it's bullshit. You don't learn "figure drawing for beginners." You learn "figure drawing." It's all the same components which you then combine together through practice.

art is such a strange hobby/skill cause certain people assign so much weight to it as an identity. its kinda like the boomer who tells you they could bench press 300lbs or were the captain of their football team in highschool. i think these people are just torturing themselves trying to learn so they can recreate the time in school when a girl said "wow you're really good at that!" as they were drawing some bullshit on their homework. art is all mostly bullshit and its best not to take it *that* seriously

Art is my only short at escaping the lowest rings of the rat race. I approach art the same way a wretch approaches the lottery, because they are one and the same.

>>8072354
learning to draw is different from drawing finished pieces. one develops your skills, the other is about making art.
in general teaching art is very hard so most teachers suck at it. it's hard to give general advice that works for lots of people. the best instruction is in person, 1 on 1 and personalized to the student.

>>8072354
boxes actually work to get you started on understanding form. But most people who try to draw can't even get past drawing cubes. They spend years drawing them and they don't look any better and they don't look 3d, its like working out but refusing to eat well and monitor your growth. Its just a waste of time.

Boxes don't automatiaclly make you good, when people I know start asking me how to get better and say they tried the boxes, it turns out they draw like 3 cubes and call it a day.

>>8072354
Everyone talk about the box method but no one talk about the triangle method

>>8072523
Most courses are for beginners because after that you should be able to improve through experimentation. If you can't you were just never gonna make it in the first place.

>>8072624
Art is borderline self-harm for a lot of people. People telling /permabeg/s that their drawings are good feels like giving the fat kid cake to cheer them up.

>>8072639
haha same, it's like forging a (slightly) more likely to win lottery ticket. it's fun like gambling too, and way easier than trying to make friends

>>8072354
I blame that Jeetbox or more like Cheat-a-box. In order to draw a fucking proper box you need PERSPECTIVE to properly put it into 3d space and PROPORTION to make it look like a fucking box. But without this understanding you end up with the stupid notion of drawing boxes randomly in a void like you're with trying to brute force drawing it doesnt work. These fucking dumbass Pajeets that shat up STEM came to art circles and grifted naive youngins into cheating these 2 fundies by drawing boxes improperly spaced and measured. How the FUCK will an artist understand how to properly draw a box by just grinding boxes randomly to fucking burnout? And then these same shiteating grifters have the fucking audacity to use terms like "Stack" and "queue" it's like motherfucker you aren't making data structures for software you are drawing something into space. You're doing art it's supposed to be fun and loose. Based Dermot set these fucking Indians straight.

>>8072519
Yeah probably, but I think i've heard it before the ai boom too.
>>8072520
Elsewhere where? Discord servers made by /ic/ users? Some dipshit on twitter who doesn't draw? Someone who doesn't even have an inkling on how to draw? I've been on this board for more than 7 years. and the art community for much longer, this is the only place where i've seen this pathology.

>>8072523
Ok lol, Why shouldn't they teach? Who should not be teaching? Drawabox? as much as that sucks, it's free. Youtuber courses? I've heard great things about Brunet, Bucci, Proko, Sinix and ctrl paint, and these are some of the biggest names on the scene.
>All courses are said to be for beginners.
Plain untrue, look at coloso or new masters academy, beginner courses are more popular, that much is true, but only to get people in the hobby, there is a market there.

>>8072523
>If you try to force a connection, all this is to keep you down, buying beginner courses forever, generating a source of passive income while preventing the competition of new emerging artists.
Oh my GOSH lol, shut the fuck up. Just shut up. You are so fucking NGMI It is genuinely unfathomable. Do you honestly think artists are scared of new artists popping up knowing how many hours of dedicated drawing and how many fucking years it takes to get good? Drawing and getting good at drawing gatekeeps itself by virtue of existing, dipshit. Do you really think they're frightened by that? Give me a break. You have no idea what it's actually like being an artist, do you? 95% of this board parrots this kind of thinking, don't they?

I'd like to at least end it on a happy note. You should probably quite using this board entirely and go draw. Or at least every time you go on this board, draw for a minute or two afterwards. Start slowly, get these pathological thoughts out of your head and focus on the passion, I can't imagine this kind of delusional cynicism can be good for anyone.

>>8072526
pyw if you're going to talk about talent, crab.

>>8073034
Would like to add onto the fact that Irshad does earn money from DaB, it is still free, he has no reason to "grift" off of artist, he genuinely think he is helping beginners (he is not)

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>>8072354
boxes are simple to learn, and is an easy way for begs to introduce volume into their drawings by imagining those volumes.
even bridgman did the same shit when teaching how to draw. here are the proportions of the 3 main boxes of the body.
his appoach to the head felt very scultor-esque. here's your block of marbel, now chisel out a head from it.

>>8072504
>However, I will completely agree with that guy that drawing hundreds of random floating boxes, or books full of circles, or whatever other stupid shit 'drawing exercises' are being preached, are going to completely destroy someone's will to continue drawing, and likely stunt their drawing abilities.
this is the real problem. draw-a-box really fucked up two generations of artists into thinking they need to grind out page after page of lines and boxes in a void.
any normal teacher would demand that you immediately use that box as a jumping off point to draw a human figure or whatever other subject your drawing, it's simply the first step to something else, and now you have artists who are drawing boxes in a void for the sake of drawing boxes in a void so they can draw their next box in a void to achieve their end goal of getting good by drawing X amount of boxes in a void.

>>8073117
Except it didn't. It fucked people who can't read. It says, explicitly, you shouldn't just be grinding boxes.

>>8073156
I'm not the guy you're replying too but I addressed that here: javascript:quote('8071444');
Simply put I am tired of not holding Irshad accountable for the community he cultivated even if he says "don't grind" Not to mention the 50% rule is total fucking bogus hogwash bullshit crap, no matter how well intended it sounds.

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>>8073184
How do you link threads in other posts in this God-forsaken website!? Fuck.
>>8073156
Anyway here, pardon the mistake. Attached image.

>>8073187
I think the problem is more that he structured it more like how an actual class is structured, and not like an internet tutorial for ADHD kids. Most physical drawing classes teaching the same thing are also going to have you sit and draw 3 pages of ellipses. That's easily achievable in an hour of classtime, one day overnight homework at most. But people with no patience and no pressure from being graded are going to get 10 minutes in, realize homework is boring, and just pretend they already understand the lesson instead of actually doing it. DaB is like a week long intro course at best.

Which isn't to say DaB is good, but it's not bad because it's boring, it's bad because it's structured to be latched onto by pseuds in the same way that I bet most of the people who recommend Bridgman or Loomis gave up after a few pages and pretend like they studied it.

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>>8073184
originally he didn't even have a 50% rule, that was added years later because of how everyone would just draw boxes in a void 100% of the time and then complain about getting burned out on it.
even now people don't do the 50% rule shit because they just want to get draw-a-box out of the way ASAP because every place they go to puts it as a prerequisite to doing anything.
>how do i learn perspective?
draw-a-box (not a perspective course btw)
>how do i learn to draw accurately?
draw-a-box
>how to i learn form?
draw-a-box
>how do i--
draw-a-box

it's fucking ridiculous honestly
>i noticed that doing digital art takes longer than traditional, is my workflow wrong?
motherfucking draw-a-box
the thing that specifically tells you not to use a drawing tablet and instead use traditional pen and paper.

>>8072354
people with innate and natural drawing abilities have to sell you the dream so they come up nonsensical ways that's plausible enough for you to invest and buy their courses for the "secret" so you too can become a drawing god

>>8073109
None of those boxes are correct lol

Does there exist a single example of an exceptional artist that started with drawabox and actually recommends it? It's been long enough that this is possible.

>>8072354
Because it's like teaching people how to breathe. Do you think you could make a 10 step course on how to breathe? "Ok step 1 practice inhaling for a week, imagine pushing air into your nose, use your hands to shove oxygen in there" you'd sound retarded and not really help someone learn to breathe.

That's what happens with almost all these retards who try to make courses. They are explaining the unexplainable, they are trying to create concise, exact steps for something that isn't ikea furniture. Drawing is an instinct you develop by drawing, observing, and drawing some more. Doing shit like studies of real life and professional art, and slowly seeing progress.

Of course, actually telling people that does not let you grift videos for 5 years or sell a course with 50 videos and training exercises for big patreon bux, so that's why they all force in retarded as fuck esoteric exercises that go nowhere.

>>8073270
Not sure if exceptional, but Alex Huneycutt is an employed pro artist, and his roadmap mentioned drawabox.

>>8073374
As in the actual path he followed or just a roadmap he recommends to beginners?

>>8073387
Both. He mainly did DAB, proko's stuff, and took some mentorships from moderndayjames. His roadmap is mostly those 3 things.

>>8073387
his 3 hour progress video shows everything he did. he says the drawabox lessons are fine but the challenges were too grindy. the revised roadmap tells you not to do so many if I remember right.

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>>8072354
Seriously why does every art teacher recommend boxes. It's not even just youtubeniggers. Michael Hampton teaches boxes. Glenn Vilppu teaches boxes. This is Marco Bucci's Figure Drawing course, he teaches boxes too. How the fuck do I get out of being a perma/beg/ if every teacher is a crab who keeps shilling boxes to me.

>>8073777
what's the point of boxes if you're going to warp them like this? proko's a fucking idiot

>>8073777
>the inpainting to make her arm more boxlike
the boxtards have gone insane. they are warping the reference to look like their "art"

>>8072354
Because it's impossible to become a great artist without developing a sense of spacial awareness, and cubes are the easiest way to begin to visualize it. I'm serious, you can grind every other fundamental and if the cubes never click there will always be a line separating you from the greats.

>>8073777
Marco Bucci is a good example of an artist who never developed good spacial awareness and you should not be using him as a mentor on this. He's by all means a good artist, but spacially his work is flat.

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>>8073777
>>8073780
>>8073785
I'm just skipping through before I start the course properly. He gave up on boxes too LMFAO. Direct quote: "The top of the leg for example is pretty clearly more round than it is boxy so you might as well use an ellipse/cyllinder for that" OKAY SO WHY TEACH ME BOXES IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE ARM TOO, HE JUST USES CYLINDERS NOW. WHY IS THE FIRST EXAMPLE HE SHOWS LE BOX MAN AND NOW IT'S ALL ROUND AND ORGANIC FORMS??????

>>8073796
I really like his teaching style, I took his advanced beginner course and learned a lot. He's just chill and explains things well. Who would you recommend for figure drawing instead?

>>8073034
>Elsewhere where? Discord servers made by /ic/ users? Some dipshit on twitter who doesn't draw?
Nah, it's been ages, but I vaguely recall it being deviantart, twitter, and reddit... and/or maybe tumblr? Regardless, I've seen it expressed more fervently and frequently here, but I saw it first elsewhere. There really are people that toxic who exist out in the wild, and they're not just a sarcastic larp by 4channers.

>>8073834
I've never seen people outside of here do it deliberately.

But there's definitely a lot of pseud retards that plague any art critique group that isn't closely moderated. But I don't think they're giving bad advice on purpose.

>>8073799
Yeah you wanna start using a cylinder for the legs and arms eventually once you've learned what the boxes have to offer. They're to understand the body as a 3D object, how it moves back in space, where the plane changes are. When you use a simple shape like a box instead of a cylinder you're forced into making definitive decisions and it's easier to see mistakes. Marco Bucci I'm sure is fine to learn other concepts from, maybe figure drawing too, but looking at his work he doesn't understand the box form.

I was taught in person so I'm not sure who's best to learn this from, that being said it's not exactly complicated just abstract. The best way to learn it is to draw from life. Start with an irl cardboard box and just draw it a ton from different angles. Stare at the box and draw without looking at your page as if you're imagining dragging your pencil across the contours of the box. You wanna reach a point where you start to feel like you're pushing your lines back into space instead of drawing on a 2D plane. Once you have that down then draw box forms of people on the subway/in a cafe or yourself in a mirror if you don't have access to a place where you can draw people. Post your results in /fig/ and ask for feedback I think it's probably less likely to be a crab bucket in there than /beg/ /int/.

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>>8073799
Proko is demonstrating why it's important to draw that box correctly, even if it's inadvertent.
>WHY IS THE FIRST EXAMPLE HE SHOWS LE BOX MAN
I feel a lot of his tutorials are not things in his own process, but he made the video as content and because it's what people want.
There are important things you can pick up from him, but it's always best to learn from those who teach their actual methods. If you want to learn construction and gesture, find someone who uses them all the time.

People seem to make fun of using boxes but if you are not some kind of genius like kim jung gi then using some form construction can be very helpful.

>>8073799
I forgot to add:
>AND NOW IT'S ALL ROUND AND ORGANIC FORMS??????
The box is not meant to replicate the form of your subject. Rather, it's to control the orientation and the size/proportions of that subject, and details within it.
Look at the Bridgman example here >>8073109
The head is not a box. But, because he relates the head to a box, he is able to use that as a measuring guide to place features correctly in novel orientations, and even account for changes due to perspective.
The utility of boxing becomes more apparent when you are actually drawing from imagination, not studies and copies.

There are many pro artists who still use construction in some form.
Just do whatever works for you. It's so retarded how people seem to look down on using boxes.
Retards will always find something they can attack you with to feel better about their shitty selves.

Spheres > boxes

>>8073799
at first you use basic forms like boxes because they are easier to understand.
once you can understand how the 3d form sits in space, you can use more complex organic forms. it's really not that complicated.

rhombic triacontahedron>platonic solids

>>8072354
is there anybody out there whose used draw-a-box and successfully made it as an artist?
all I hear is horror stories

>>8073109
boxes help tremendously when figuring out how something fits in a 3d space, many artists do it when doing perspective/group shots but what's way more important is actually fitting something into that box, drawing a box is so simple there's no point in refining it because what you're really trying to learn is perspective

>>8073197
Yeah in a sense Drawabox doesn't know what it is. It's in a perpetual identity crisis. That's why it has valuable information while simultaneously being detrimental for beginners. it is simply not a good introduction to drawing at all.

>>8074584
Worth knowing that while your boxes can suck, you can still have understanding of 3d space. You just have motor issues that need to be ironed out with mileage and good approaches.

new movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bd5ZvSN8VA

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These anons really need to hear this

>>8070270
>>8073703
>>8072646
>>8073109
>>8073846

We are entering the next phase of radicalization. Identify and report any boxbrains and box-sympathizers.

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>>8074630
Boxes are just one step of the process man. There's nothing wrong with that horse. You just apply anatomy knowledge next for your sketch. You can see the perspective, you can see where to shade. It's good construction.

Dermot had his points, mainly that drawing boxes in a void is useless, that line exercises are pointless, and that improving at drawing should be fun. But he's wrong. Most figure drawing teachers teach box construction as part of their method. Tenten teaches boxes. There's nothing wrong with them as an intermediate step before you jump into anatomy.

>>8074636
>pic related
performative boxes
by the time you get accurate enough to draw those you can just use organic forms that match the anatomy directly

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>>8074636
>>8074653
Yeah I'm ngl I'm just ragebaiting. He uses cylinders more than anything

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It's good for learning.

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Is it just me, or is all this KJG/Peter Han like art really difficult to read? Even with simple scenes such as this, i'm trying to look at it but can't keep my focus. It feels like i'm cross eyed, actually gives me a bit of nausia.

Is this intentional?

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Here a KJG piece where he actually used tone and shadow for one, it has the same effect to me (less nausea, but still real trouble looking at it).

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I can believe that the messyness is intentional, but the only thing i can reliably make out is the fat mans head and his bullseye ear. Cannot tell which of these characters are interacting, it kind of looks like me like none of them are interacting with anyone (minus the ones actually touching).

Is this the way it's supposed to be perceived or am i missing some required south korean gene?

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>>8074773
>>8074776
>>8074784
It's mostly just cause every character is equally detailed, so it's hard for your eyes to rest on any one part of the composition. The value difference in the first one makes it a little more readable to me but everything is so detailed and textured it's easy to lose track of what you're looking at. I never followed KJG that closely but for him there's a decent chance it's cause he just improv'd the entire scene off the top of his head and so there wasn't a lot of planning. Glancing through one of the comics he's done his compositions are a lot more readable when he's not just flexing his skills in front of an audience.

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Oh nonono NO

more box exercises

they told me to learn from vilppu and now this

i'm getting DaB flashbacks

HURRRGH HUUUUURRRR

do a lot of these he says

GuuuURRRGH

>>8074798
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHGGHHHHHHH

>>8074776
Unironically looks like AI nonsense art

Boxes should be used for shading practice and perspective practice.

Other than that, they're useless. Could you make animals, bodies, and objects out of boxes? Sure. But not everyone wants to be an architect. Just draw instead of simplifying everything

>>8074819
>shading practice
Shading a box won't teach you shading, its a bunch of flat forms. Shade organic forms.
>perspective practice
Use it for perspective when you are first learning, but start practicing perspective with organic forms.

>>8074630
you're the one rejecting bridgman and vlippu.
anti-boxers are the true radical artists