I don't understand how ugly ass places even existdo people never look around, say DAMN I live in a shithole, and try to advocate for like organizing or something to make it better?Why or why not like these fuckers in Peru. Do they have some level of consciousness? Do any of them think "hey we should learn a little bit about construction so we don't live in fucking tin shacks"? How can you be smart enough to build a bunch of tin shacks but too fucking stupid to improve them like 5% into brick houses??? HOW?
>>224307361Browns have a crab in the bucket mentality, god forbid anyone try to make anything better ever that means you think you’re better than us
>>224307361>Slackjawed bucktoothed incel from a flyover town in the sticks is worried about a bustling mining town on another continent
>>224307381chikaner-sama?
>>224307361Lets say you're transported there.Tell me nigga what are you supposed to do? What would YOU do?
>>224307361That place has earthquakes and brick houses get destroyed.
>>224307406ok and these shitheaps don't get destroyed? are they basically tents?
>>224307403bruh if I was ever transported there I'd have these "people" worshipping me as their god king within 6 months my IQ alone is probably higher than the combined IQ of every single person in that image
>>224307361How do you not know how poverty works? Also I'm pretty sure it's impossible to make lima look good, that shit looks like mars but permafoggy
>>224307421Tell me concretely what'll you do?
>>224307414That's the same argument you faggots use in favor of your cardboard houses. Just replace earthquakes with tornados.
>>224307361cool story bro
>>224307435>How do you not know how poverty works?explain what you meanlike what prevents poor people from simply painting their simple houses and making them look nicer?
>>224307361These people are much, much poorer than most first worlders can even imagine being, like the average Peruvian already spends ~35% of income on just sustaining themselves (in the west it's 10-15% typically), now add relatively high inequality, and it's not impossible that the people living here are spending up to 70-80% of their income just feeding themselves.
>>224307688How do you pay for the paint?
>>224307763>>224307783I just do not believe that it's so fucking difficult to build a clean and attractive home, sorry at its core, it doesn't actually involve money at all. even 4000 years ago there are examples of simple villages with some type of design harmony that would be enjoyable and quaint places to live. my belief is that ugly environments (and poverty) are more the result of societal instability from earlier wars or some type of civilizational collapse that place in peru is probably filled with broken (and honestly quite stupid) people that never really had a "community" in the first place. almost none of them would be serious people, almost none of them took part in building up those shanty houses in the first place. someone else did. and that person was also retarded
>>224307900What about materials, motherfucker? Where do they get the materials? Are you 12?
>>224307688>expensive roof tiles>house made of bricks>actual pavementmeanwhile OP's picrel show houses made of literal trash. the houses in your pic are also from a shithole, but there are levels of poverty
>>224307783like, i get your point yes. building a town or a city is a massively difficult endeavor that takes basically getting everything right.you need a functional economy that enables specialization, you need some level of cohesion in the community to build trust so people actually have an incentive to work together and build homes for others, you need a healthy population pyramid with plenty of young people to build and some number of older people to supervise and guide the young on design, urban planning and aestheticsI just don't think paying for materials is actually the core bottleneck for reasons I explained above. people have been building homes for thousands of years before money was invented. the problem is probably runaway demographics where more people were produced before when things were better, and they weren't educated enough or skilled enough to build housing, so ended up living like shit. Like, can the peruvians not cut stone? they cannot build stone housing? there is an ABUNDANCE of stone there. the problem is not a lack of materials. >>224307919materials are not really the main bottleneck in 90% of places anon. There are places where this is not true, like Mauritania. Peru is not really one of those places I often think about these simple island homes, in the middle of the fucking ocean, that are still beautiful and functional
>>224307919>>224307946You guys are talking about economics but honestly I don’t think that really matters at all. I think the Peruvians are just fundamentally demoralized. I think what they need is hope that they can improve their conditions and really change.
>>224308052>materials are not really the main bottleneck in 90% of places anon.Yes it is. It is access to materials not availability though. You're also literally comparing to colonial architecture which would generally involve shipping materials and be intended for a relatively wealthy segment of the population, while for example campesinos would either be living in workhouse dormitories, or in the 19th/early 20th century equivalent of those Peruvian shacks.
>>224308148Both you and that Japanese guy are fucking morons, literal magical thinking.
>>224308052To be honest barely anyone nowadays can make a house like that, that's even more true in first world countries. I hate people who claim everything is easy yet have zero technical knowledge when it comes to construction, plumbing, agriculture, etc... let alone an undestanding of the logistics and maintenance required to both build and sustain all of that.Try taking a look at the new builds around you.
>>224308148No offense but you watch too many youtube videos and seem to genuinely believe that building houses is easy. Here we can build upon what was already created and that helps A LOT. These people have to make everything from scratch, not just mere houses. Everything is interconnected. They have no roads, no sewer system, no industry that can provide the raw materials to build things, no civil engineer, no nothing really. On top of that they have to survive and provide for themselves everyday in a way that is not profitable but keeps them alive. How do you pair both survival and development when survival most likely takes you the most of your day? It seems like something easy because it has been conquered here but do you realize that a few centuries ago it took you most of your day. Drawing water from a well, working at the mine, commutting, getting food and cooking it, taking care of the vulnerable members of your community, etc...
>>224308290>>224308207so what do you guys suggest? just giving up? or should they just move to already developed cities because peru is a lost cause? what is your rational solution to this
>>224308410You could possibly manage some improvement using some kind of cooperative housing scheme. But likely, not much change would be possible without significant public investment in basic infrastructure.
>>224307900>>224307361Those people there are descendants of displaced andean population (serranos) who moved in haste after the massive violence surge from the Sendero Luminoso armed group, a commie isis type militant group of the 70-90's.Everything you see there is an improvisation mounted on top of another improvisation.
>>224307361No, because they are browns and don't notice how shitty everything is, or try to improve itThis is the solution to the Fermi Paradox btw. Most aliens are spiritually brown, which is why they don't colonize the galaxy.
>>224308410Solution to what wtf are you talking about? Who are you some kind of expert on the subject? I'm just a retard yet have experience building houses. I still wouldn't pretend to be qualified to tell anyone what to do or what not to do. Do you realize that the real issue here is people having strong opinions on topics they have no expertise on? We tell you it's more complex than it seems and your answer is "ok solve it now". Beyond mere logistics, ressources and technical knowledge there are a lot of things to consider such as local politics, weather/environment, demographics or even the terrain/soil and whether or not specificities have to be taken into account first. Do you think we build the same on all soil, for example?That's not to say don't do anything. Do what you can. Don't pretend you can do everything. No offense to you but you probably couldn't even build a shed or manage a gas station.
>>224307783You buy whitewash instead, or make it yourself from limestone.
>>224307361this looks kinda cool though
>>224307361Would be insanely kino with solar lights.
>>224307361An American shouldn't be talking about this. Since the end of WWII, the auto industry has been turning decent cities into boring concrete nightmares. So far, you haven't done anything to fix it, and you probably never will
>>224309144That's completely different than a tent-city slum.
>>224307406Some of the inca walls in peru have survived many earthquakes whilst colonial era buildings collapsed. I found that interesting anyway.
Thanks Ameribro. I too like to shit on the Peruvians. Every time they post something, it’s the most retarded thing ever. I think it’s for the best that the Venezuelans destroys Lima
>>224309304OP asked the question: why haven't these people done anything to improve their surroundings? Miles and miles of parking lots are better than a slum in Peru, but they're still fucking eyesores. My point is that the government has enshittificated many US cities for quite some time, and nobody has said or done anything to improve it
>>224307361>>224307688You should pay more attention because you're being fooled by the dusty desert environ and grey weather. A lot of them do paint their house and make it look relatively nice and you can see the difference when the weather gets clearer. In fact, I dont see much garbage or waste there. It's much better than a total shithole like India. I zoom this corner just to show that it isnt as bad as it looks.And from what I've seen on Youtube, the interior of these favela buildings look nicer than you think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNXA8CRnZXY
I live in one such place.I see new people coming and going every month around me. I used to see regular faces maybe 5 to 8 years ago but since COVID or something, not sure, a lot of these people or maybe their children have left the place and now the place is just full of old people and mostly kids trashing the place down. These are not the kind of people who you can expect to make a change.The new ones think of it as a temporary thing probably. They just want a cheap place to stay at and then move when necessary. They are also very violent at times and argue if they park their vehicles at the entrance of other people.There is a barely existing sense of community. If people start a fight most would just stay inside, and they don't bother reporting the issue either because of the "not my problem" attitude. Every Saturday, a group of the children who did not leave (and some who did leave to better places) and still live with their parents come together and do drugs and drink all night.It's depressing. The government also doesn't really care that much and during the elections they just show up and give free lunch boxes or 10 dollars worth of money and we will vote for the party that gives more freebies.
>>224307402Who the fuck is chikaner and why are brazilians always name dropping him
>>224309682I have some questions: 1) what city do you live in? is it true that in some parts of india (bangalore, gurugram, hi tec city in hyderabad, etc) the average "upper middle class" person lives in a fairly new high rise like these? like say a person making over 25 lakhs a year?2) why the hell are you not leaving if everyone else did? Do you feel some connection to that neighborhood or something?3) why are you not trying like hell to build a community with your "tribe", the people in india that you connect with intellectually, spiritually, financially, in terms of career, etc the most? you should be in a productive community surrounded by like minded people. is it difficult for you to get there, or are you a NEET that deserves to be in the shithole you are in now?
>>224307361dystopian
>>224307361>do people never look around, say DAMN I live in a shithole, and try to advocate for like organizing or something to make it better?>tf>tp
>>224307414wooden houses are more resistant to earthquakes than non reinforced concretebut that is besides the point, they are simply too poor to get better housing
>>224309944I think it's among the top 5 worst places to live on earth
>>224309934Yes, NEET.1. Yes, they do live in high rises. International companies set up their places at dedicated economic zones where they get to pay cheaper electricity, less property tax, etc. that is subsidized by the government to get them to stay here and do business. Property builders take this as an opportunity to build high rise 40 floor apartments at places nearby for these people that work in those places, who are usually moving from bumfuck villages that have no proper development so they would be happy to buy these houses taking a huge property loan (encouraged by these companies in the first place) and move there with their family.All this is enabled by cheap (relative) outsourcing from first world nations happen. If they stop doing this, then the real estate business will suffer as well.2. I am a NEET. I ruined my chances by taking wrong decisions.3. I don't connect with any of the people in my streets. They do drugs, they drink, they even hire prostitutes at times. I ruined the education opportunities that my parents set up for me and a chance to get out for reasons.
>>224309144>top>rains flood the entire sector>bottom>canals work to divert the water from the city so it no longer floods
>>224310261lol
>>224310147what is your favorite city in india?
Even if we were to eliminate the cultural tendency among residents of these areas to actively degrade their own living environments, we would still have to consider that the population is generally preoccupied with very low paying jobs in sectors like manufacturing and commerce, often in the informal economy, which frequently require shifts of up to 10 or 12 consecutive hours. When combined with commutes that often exceed an hour, these people are left with virtually no time, money, or energy to improve the places where they live.
>>224308522>not much change would be possible without significant public investment in basic infrastructureI knew you were a socialist cuck.
>>224310147You're very calm despite having a shitty life nobody wants. How do you keep on living? What are your plans for the future?
>>224310321the unfortunate truth is that 99% of the "work" these people do is not really necessary it's like the homeless people selling candy. no normal person is buying candy from a homeless guy. it's a totally bullshit job, and the real irony is that same homeless guy could just get a job in a store and make more money doing basically the same thing (being a cashier) what I am suggesting is of course a massive societal shift away from the informal economy, and that's not easy. My point is that these "10-12 hour workdays" are largely a form of self inflicted torture for these people, and if they just stopped doing that shit entirely they could focus on improving their surroundings
>>224307361>do people never look around, say DAMN I live in a shithole, and try to advocate for like organizing or something to make it better?Dude, these people have to commute for like 4 hours a day to get to a shitty job for a shitty pay that only serves them the wherewithal to keep living for another day without starving. They have no prospect of their situation improving in any meaningful way, it is so bad it strikes me with terror to even try to fathom their feelings, I´d go as far as to say that at some point it is the physical aversion to dying the only think that keeps them going. It seems to me quite arrogant to think you would do so much better than them just because they don't try hard enough; you could be fucking Einstein but that wouldn't be of much help if you were malnourished and toiling away all day from the moment you are able to walk.
>>224307361The guys in that pic are migrants who came with basically nothing from deep inland. Their mentality is basically make money and educate the children so that the family has better things with each generation or so. Most of the rest of Lima began as what you see in the image.And it's not like beautiful landscapes are an alien concept to them, many come from truly stunning places. But Lima doesn't get much water and there's not much vegetation, so there's only so much they can do. Li,e the first generations (around 70 years ago) often came with all their animals and such, only for most of them to die because there was nothing to feed them.
>>224310663are you from lima anon?
>>224307620That street alone has about the GDP of several 3rs world countries.
>>224307620that's houston and it's actually a gem of a city
>>224310663is that mostly smog? does it hurt people's lungs to breathe it in?
>>224307361Kek, apparently you don't understand shit about how land invasions and land trafficking work here in lima. idk why you'd bring up demoralization when this is way more of a socioeconomic issue. i actually live near that kind of favela, although obviously they're not exactly like the ones in picrel, but they're still dangerous areas i wouldn't even think of walking through.
>>224310356Mass apply for every entry level graduate job possible and beg everyone for referrals.
>>224307361Your life will improve when you understand that NPC is a real category of humans. They have no internal thought at all.
>>224310663>And it's not like beautiful landscapes are an alien concept to them, many come from truly stunning places.would you mind posting some pics of the places they come from?are the people there native americans?
>>224310902None of that means they shouldn’t care about aesthetics thoughOP is totally right, even if you’re poor and you live in a favela shithole you can make your shack look cute
>>224310698Nah, but my grandfather migrated to Lima and then came back. He settled in San Juan de Lurigancho with other family members in tents like this at the very beginning. This pic was actually taken in the same area, the biggest district in Lima btw. Some family members stayed there, and their houses are now multi-level, like 5 stories or so, but they started out like this.
>>224311287Here's a modern example of how they start out>>224310822It's the typical fog that condenses when it reaches the hills of Lima. It's also the same reason Lima has always had that gray sky that writers dubbed panza de burro (donkey's belly). Due to specific climatic phenomena, the city has an very humid sky but that's reluctant to produce rain. That's why the land is so desert-like.
>>224311322>the city has an very humid sky but that's reluctant to produce rainthis is so interesting I wonder why its like that can you tell us how the government treats these encampments? does the Lima government oppress these people or is it doing anything to help them? What is so amazing about the economy of Lima that it causes people to go from some beautiful jungle to live there in a tent? Did your grandfather work in mining? Considering your family that stayed there now have large houses it sounds like it kinda worked out?
The key is simply organization. There are dozens of examples of old towns in Arab/maghreb/central asian cities that look quite comfy despite having been rather poor and in a desert.The trick is to build close together and high, but you can't do that when your "village" is just a temporary migrant camp, with no one planning on settling there.
>>224311287The typical pattern of progression is that they then build rectangular houses out of reeds, then upgrade to adobe, and eventually move on to brick and cement.>>224311111We Peruvians usually don't have the same concept of Native Americans as you guys do, but yeah, in a broad sense, if you count the fact that more than 1 million people in Lima speak Quechua, generally the grandparents. But we don't really consider them “natives” anymore since they live and have a city life now.>>224311350As I said, much of Lima started out like that, without electricity, roads, running water, or anything, so the government eventually provides those services, partly because authorities want their votes. In the past, when there were so many of them and lots of land, they usually weren't as confrontational with the pueblos jovenes.But they also evict them, and it depends on the situation. In the past, the invasions often won simply because of the sheer number of people involved, and they were allowed to stay until they were eventually given property titles. Even today in Peru, if you occupy a piece of land and nobody does anything about it, after around 10 years or so you legally become its owner if you want to. Nowadays though, invasions are rarer and smaller in scale and the police are better trained and equipped, so invasions winning out happens much less often. The pueblos jovenes you often see nowadays are legal, though in several cases some smart guy decided to sell land that wasn't his, and the people eventually get kicked out.
>>224310402many of them are uneducated bro…
>>224311537Nowadays they can use plywood too.
>>224311661Is it true that el nino is gonna rape north Peru?
>>224307361Your posts date you as a teenager, maybe early 20’s at the oldest. Why do I make that claim? The questions you’re asking are answered almost immmediately by experiencing what humans are actually like.
>>224307361They enjoy living like that.No point in helping them. Let them live the way they want to.
>>224311684It usually does, down to around Lima, where it becomes less severe.In general, the areas that are most concerning for the government are always on the coast, especially in the northern areas, where in addition to the coast, the highlands also get very rainy. The Andes mountains are in general quite accustomed to seasonal rains, so it doesn't affect them as much, since all that water just flows down to the coast through the supercharged rivers, which on the coast often destroy infrastructure and cause flooding because the land is much flatter over there.
>>224311819>which on the coast often destroy infrastructure and cause flooding because the land is much flatter over there.And the coastal land is a rainless desert, so the soil doesn't absorb water as well as it would if it were covered in grass.
>>224307620imagine having all the money in the world and 99% of your country turns into that.
>>224311819you sound pretty intelligent. Why do you live in Peru?
>>224311918Because he's Peruvian. Total genocide of the United Statian mind virus.
>>224311918lol some anons like you think intelligence is some kind of super power that can offset every single circumstance you're born under and that the tier list among people is basically just a ranking of intelligence. plenty of third world countries have people smarter than you'll ever be and you somehow think that magically translates into building modern cities. you're dangerously stupid. if i lived in the same city as you knowing you could influence local politics i'd flee.
>>224307361calling him ugly and grimace 26
OP has to be a child, not even regular Americans can be this sheltered from the reality of the world
>>224311918What’s up with you putting intelligence on this much of a pedestal?
>>224312028>>224311963you guys don't think intelligence is an important factor in building a functioning, beautiful society?
>>224312028He's a sissy egghead, let's beat him up
>>224311918In some places, life is quite chill and comfortable. Medium-sized towns with strong economic activity are the sweet spot I think. Lima is a nightmare in comparison. People commute for like two hours or more, and having some of the worst traffic in the world doesn't help at all. But it's okay for tourism. I have a stable job, so I don't need to go to Lima or emigrate.
>>224312032
>>224312028>>224311963>the tier list among people is basically just a ranking of intelligencealmost entirely yes. the correlation between any relevant factor of quality of life - GDP per capita, HDI, whatever - and average IQ is probably like 0.85 or higher Why are you guys pretending like this isn't true?
>>224312032Which one is better at building a society? To further the analogy, would either function without gasoline? Intelligence is a tool just like a vehicle is a tool. The greatest tool in the world is worthless if the person wielding it doesn’t know when, why or how to use it. There’s no shortage of high iq individuals stuck in remedial jobs for 50 years. I’ve met countless individuals smarter than me and with much higher raw IQ but they lack the will and wisdom to generate any opportunity with it.
