Could the Maginot Line have worked if it covered the Belgian border?
>>65176670"worked"?No.It would have slowed the Germans down quite a bit more though.
No. It maybe wouldn't have even helped that much. The maginot line had problems with command lines and structure which meant a reasonably determined attack was getting through one way or another
I'll go ahead and give a contrary answer and say maybe. It wasnt intended to be some uber defense that could withstand any assault, but a swath of fortifications spread out over 10+ miles deep that would have been a massive pain in the ass to deal with and would give France weeks of time to mobilize
>>65176718>and would give France weeks of time to mobilizeFrance mobilized September 1939, German offensive was May 1940.
>>65176670The Maginot line did exactly what it was supposed to - force the Germans into the lowlands. The Belgians rolled over and just let them through.
>>65176732Sorry, my bad. Meant that they'd be able to respond, reposition units as required and so forth
All the idiots saying 'no' are just that, idiots. Germans had enough troubles with some minor fortificiations (petit ouvrages). A well equipped french division at the right place and time would've stopped the Germans and give the French army the time to reorganize and redeploy from Belgium.That being said the area near the Belgian border was not suited to the type of fortifications you see in Alsace-Lorraine. The area is flat with a shallow water table, you're not building massive underground bunkers there so the question is practically irrelevant. The maginot line was built around the terrain, not just arbitrarily ploped down on the border.
>>65176801>The Maginot line did exactly what it was supposed to - force the Germans into the lowlands.So cover the Belgian border then you don't have to rely on the Belgians.
>>65176818>>65176840>>That being said the area near the Belgian border was not suited to the type of fortifications you see in Alsace-Lorraine. The area is flat with a shallow water table, you're not building massive underground bunkers there so the question is practically irrelevant.Additionally, France did not want to repeat ww1 where fighting took place on French soil. Likewise Belgium was allied to France before turning back to neutrality in 1936. France did build fortifications on the Belgian border, they were just not as expensive.
>>65176860>expensiveexpansive*
>>65176687The goal was never to stop an attack, that is physically impossible. The goal was to be a deterrent in case of invasion and to let France move their armies if they attacked through it.
>>65176670It did work, though? It literally fulfilled the role it was meant for. It's the rest of the French (and British) armed forces that failed to achieve their part of the overall strategy.
>>65177537The Brits also half heartedly commited their BEF to the defence of France because their government had dismantled the Army after WWI.
>>65176670It would have kept the english army on the continent as they wouldnt have fled and thus the germans would have been stuckReminder that the soviets managed to eventually pin the germans in steppe terrain and the borders of Belgium are all hilly and forested, the germans were clearly stoppable>>65176687>a reasonably determined attack was getting through one way or anotherYes surely doing Verdun times 30 will be just fine, Germany won WW1 in 1916 after all
>>65177537>It's the rest of the French (and British) armed forces that failed to achieve their part of the overall strategy.Belgians were the ones who fucked it up. >>65177756BEF was 394,000 strong.
>>65176670Yes. Absolutely.
>>65176670the germans were close to losing even after bypassing it. the only reason they won was the same reason they beat russia in 1917. communists infested france. if belgium was covered, they would have lost. the only way they'd win is if they executed all communists and fixed their retarded economy.
>>65176670Germany wouldnt have attacked through Belgium if the Maginot line went all the way. Only retard countries try to attack fortified positions straight on (Soviet Union vs Mannerheim Line).
>>65178533The rudimentary Mannerheim line was arguably less of an obstacle than the endless frozen snowy woodlands that's composing most of the border. Not saying they're not retarded.
>>65178191>Belgians were the ones who fucked it up.Not mutch they could have done with crazed german high on meth doing the first paratrooper attack in history and using state-of-the art shaped charges. Fort Fort d'Ében-Émael was one of the best fortresses in the world. And lets not forget that the brits ran, forcing french and belgian units to cover for them so that they could run across the channel like cowards. French and brits lost because they wasted months where they could have just steamrolled germany, as the bulk of the german military was in Poland.
>>65176670It did cover the Belgian border.
>>65178589>rudimentary Mannerheim line That's the impression I've been getting reading more about it. Depending on who you ask or read, it was either>some sparse bunkers and dugouts in the woods (though whatever preparations they made for logistics and artillery shouldn't be disregarded, either)>or a nearly impenetrable murder-fortress that could only be taken through tremendous loss of lifeI suspect the latter view is somewhat influenced by Soviet historiography.
>>65176670How do you mean 'worked'? It wouldn't have been an impenetrable wall that kept the Germans out forever. A lot of German doctrine and development in the run up to the war was focused around figuring out how to defeat built up static defenses exactly like the Maginot line. Germany needed to take France out of the fight to avoid being surrounded (which was Germanies geopolitical nightmare as the French and Russians had worked together to produce exactly that scenario since about day 1 of German unification). What the Maginot would have done, if it was extended to the Channel, would have been to slow down the advance and make the Battle of France far more costly for both sides. It would probably still trend Germanies way, this early in the war the catastrophic problems with the German economy, logistical systems, leadership etc hadn't become too obvious yet. It might change the way France was viewed postwar, from 'cheese eating surrender monkeys' to 'psychotic human lemmings' or something. Interestingly enough the Maginot line in OTL actually worked exactly as France intended it to - by forcing Germany to invade Belgium to get to France, thus activating Britains treaties with Belgium, and bringing the British Empire into the war on France's side - France was worried that Britain would just hang them out to dry and let Germany conquer them without getting involved in the run up to the war.
>>65176670Probably not. People tend to forget this now but in 1940, the individual largest fortress on the planet wasn't in France, but Fort Ében-Émael in Belgium. And it was just one of a line of defenses running along the German-Belgian frontier, nearly all of these were overrun by the Panzers (with some help from the Fallschirmjägers) in mere hours.>>65176818>Germans had enough troubles with some minor fortificiations (petit ouvrages).While that is true, the Germans also only committed relatively limited numbers of troops to Maubeuge, and the French were only able to hold them up by about 72 hours before being forced to capitulate after ventilation and even the gun batteries started suffering mechanical malfunctions.
During the Phoney War, the French soldiers stationed there suffered considerable physical and mental damage, indicating that life underground was not easy.
>>65178594>Not mutch they could have done with crazed german high on meth doing the first paratrooper attack in historyTheir commanders sat on their asses and waited for an attack days after the actual attack happened
>>65176670Hitler personally planned the attack in the Belgian super-fort that was supposed to be able to hold out for months on its own, against anything.It was over in just over an hour, with 100 Belgian and 20 German KIA.GOAT tactical victory.Unlike Pearl Harbor or Trojan Horse, there was no legit "surprise" involved. It was after the long "Phony War" and Belgians and Germans all knew WTF they other guys had, including paratroopers etc.
>>65178609>thus activating Britains treaties with Belgium, and bringing the British Empire into the war on France's sideBritain declared war against Germany a year before the invasion into Belgium.
>>65176670>Maginot LineI never even heard of the thing it must have been a fucking nothing maybe a stalling event as the best it ever even did. Shows you the superiority of mobility in defense and in offense
>>65178713Fun factThey got eben emanuel plans from german contractors who helped build the thing.
>>65178747Are you suggesting that the French governments strategic policy and defense spending was based on foresight?
>>65176818>All the idiots saying 'no' are just that, idiots. Germans had enough troubles with some minor fortificiations (petit ouvrages). A well equipped french division at the right place and time would've stopped the Germans and give the French army the time to reorganize and redeploy from Belgium.French General Huntziger fucked up so bad in the battle of France. The Maginot line in his area was holding up the German advance, so what does he do? Order the line to be abandoned. Germans making a crossing and Sedan? Orders a counterattack and then calls it off, then orders it again and calls it off, and then orders it again for it to fall apart.>>65178594>Not mutch they could have doneNah Belgium royally fucked up. They blew off their treaty with France and decided to appease Germany. This also caused them to stall when it was obvious what the Germans were doing and instead of letting the French and British troops into Belgium and defend along the Meuse as planned. Instead waited for the Germans to attack and then let the British and French in which caused them to have to try to race to the Meuse, which didn't work.I do find these threads funny in a way though. Everyone is always what could have France done differently, when the actual question is why the German planned worked so well? The German plan is insane! Let's have a feint attack on Belgium to draw in the best French and British divisions, then we'll have an armored thrust through bunch of logging tracks through the ass end of Belgium then charge across France and try to reach the coast as fast as possible. Does that sound sane? They threw their entire army at this with little chances of success. The fact that it worked was a miracle as they had no right to win. All it took was one bomber force to bomb the traffic jam of tanks in Belgium to not just fuck up their plan, but would leave Germany defenseless for an invasion.
>>65176670Yeah, it was why the Germans didn't care to waste time going through it. Next question.
>>65178757fun fact the offense can make structures too
>>65178910Idiot take. The Maginot line went from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic. The Germans did go through it. It was also supposed to link up with Belgian fortifications, but Belgium decided to renege on that and appease the Germans, which caused France to do a rush building along their border.
>>65178935So you're saying that it wasn't finished and the Germans deliberately went to the part where there was practically no serious entrenched defense.>It went from sea to sea, but not really, but you're a b-baka anyway so it doesn't matter.
>>65178757non-Holohoax based citation needed, but I doubt the construction was even attempted to be much secret. Too many guys with loose lips involved for too long, and I never heard of any big No Fly Zone over it for miles around.
>>65178191The Belgians weren't expected to hold on their own, retard.Frenchies and Brits fucked it up by not reacting to the Ardennes thrust and crossing of the Meuse fast enough.
>>65178594>French and brits lost because they wasted months where they could have just steamrolled germany, as the bulk of the german military was in Poland.Retard take. German strength in the west began rapidly climbing just two weeks into the war and the Luftwaffe was already sending most of its fighter strength west by the end of the first week becuase the polish airforce had effectively ceased to exist by that point.
>>65176840belgium was supposed to continue the line on its side but didn't. Then the french wanted to build a line on their side in case the germans plowed through belgium but then belgium complained that it meant that france would abandon them
>>65179168>Nooooo you didn't protect us fast enough.Belgium should've defended it themselves. Belgium back then wasn't some weak shithole. They had a legitimate military that fumbled harder than anyone possibly could of imagined. Even the Germans couldn't believe their success.People trash France when in reality they did better than Belgium did. Only Norway folded harder than the Belgians.
>>65176670I have come to the conclusion over time that the mistake the French made was to try and defend Belgium. If they had sat on their border and said "not you problem" down their noses, the German army would find itself facing their entire forces sitting in prepared positions on the French / Belgian border.
>>65178995There were serious defenses where they attacked. They just weren't as heavily defended as on the Franco-German border, which makes sense because that area the water table is high in that area.Also, they were holding up the advance until pic related decided to abandon his fortifications.>>65179168>Frenchies and Brits fucked it up by not reacting to the Ardennes thrust and crossing of the Meuse fast enough.Both of those things were the fault of the Belgium government. They didn't let the French and British cross into Belgium until the Germans were already attacking.
>>65178594Arguably they wasted years before that, they failed to enforce the treaty of Versailles and let Germany rearm and prepare for round two.
>>65179398This was more of a British problem than French. France was more than willing to march on Berlin and force the treaty, but the British were not and the French didn't want to do it alone. The Brits were too much in on appeasement even back in 1919. Fucking John Maynard Keynes was writing about how the treaty of Versailles was bankrupting Germany. And as an economist he should have known better.
>>65179431Almost all issues last century comes down to the brits being idiots.
>>65176682It would have just prolonged the suffering. The French command was amazingly incompetent. More fortresses would have made little difference.
>>65178995It was finished. The Belgians had their own forts as well.
>>65179431>>65179398>Muh Versailles If the French and British had listened to Wilson there wouldn't have been a WW2
>>65179445If Germany paid their debts there wouldn't have been WWII either. Instead they decided to chimp out.
>>65176670It was a french idea, that's how you know it was stupid.
>>65179445if the US hadn't pulled out of the international order it helped create there wouldn't have been a WWIIheck even if they did, provided they didn't first over inflate their stockmarket and then fumble the response once it burst there would never have been a WWII
>>65178896You left out the part where the German plans were lost, found by the Allies, and then the former English king leaked that information to the Germans.
>>65179205You must mean Denmark, the Norwegians fought courageously and those able remained combatants despite the nominal occupation. To name a few: outnumbered 10:1 the biplane squadron at Fornebu downed 5 invaders and expended their entire stock of ammunition before paratroopers overran the airport, a 200 ton corvette confronted Kampfgruppe 5 then rammed one of Blücher's destroyer escorts when the flotilla demanded their surrender, and the Royal Guards became perhaps the last European unit to enter battle wearing full-dress uniforms. The most that could be said is that their nation loved peace too much to adequately prepare for war.
>>65180507They did some token bullshit for what their nation could've mustered. I meant what I said Denmark folded but for their size no one expected anything really. Belgium in comparison mobilized 600k troops and did fuck all. Norway did even worse with more time and resources.
>>65179431>appeasementI've grown to hate that word. It gives idiots with the power of hindsight the ability to feel smug about anything.Invasion of Iraq? Bad. Don't start warsAfghanistan? BadKorea and Vietnam? SameGermany gearing up for WWII when the world was still recovering from the first war? Lol. Lmao. How could you be so stupid for NOT wanting to fight a war?Damned if you do, damned if you don't
>>65180527Because they earnestly pursued a policy of military disarmament, economic development, neutrality and world peace after observing WW1 in horror. You also severely underrate the contribution of their merchant-mariners to the allied war effort - 1049 vessels evaded the Nazi occupation of which over 60% were large, modern diesel-engine types. The Battle of Britain would certainly have been lost without their tanker fleet, in particular.
>>65180158>Europe will immediately devolve into total war shit flinging the second America isn't there to baby sit themAll the more reason to abandon NATO
>>65180158If the US hadn't pulled out of the UK there wouldn't have been a WW1 or WW2 though.
>>65180552Not wanting to fight a war doesn't mean you should just roll over and let them have their way with you. The Belgians watched their bigger neighbor rearm and start sabre rattling and instead of preparing their military to defend it and commit with their allies, they do opposite.
>>65178613>While that is true, the Germans also only committed relatively limited numbers of troops to Maubeuge, and the French were only able to hold them up by about 72 hours before being forced to capitulate after ventilation and even the gun batteries started suffering mechanical malfunctions.They had to dedicate heavy artillery in a direct fire role, engineers and aircraft to deal with what were essentially light fortifications manned by 100-200 men and it still took them days to do it.
>>65178606essentially there were a couple mega-death-bunkers and in most places it was little more than huge boulders in a line and some barbed wire. so two soviets attacking it could have two completely different experiences
>>65178594it was the Belgians fault as if they had let the Brits in there was a perfectly defensible position along a certain canal that runs through Belgium and that forms a perfect tank-trench. >>65179431>This was more of a British problem than French. France was more than willing to march on Berlin and force the treaty, but the British were notFrance was deeply divided and had fallen prey to the left and all their vices.
