The US military has become increasingly wary of body armor and while some AP loadings in intermediate calibers can work against armor, those calibers are struggling and clearly about to fall behind the advances in armor. Hence the Army going for the M7. That rifle though creates the issue of a heavy, bulky, higher recoiling rifle that will have trouble in fast paced close quarters. Outdoors, at greater ranges where the M7's round may be better suited, the rise of drones makes the idea of extended range, protected infantry shootouts seem like more and more of a bad idea. And that's in terrain where long range fighting is even plausible to begin with.Here's my thought experiment: Ditch intermediate caliber service rifles, but instead of going to a pissin' hot cartridge, make a PDW the service arm. I don't care what, but something capable of killing body armor at close range. Controllable, light, small. Then all the carry capacity freed up with smaller service guns and ammo can be used to load infantry with - drones, dedicated anti-drone weapons, cover defeating smart grenade launchers, and other heavier and specialized weapons per theater.Weapons squads in platoons keep their full power MGs, and platoon keep a pair of DMRs to deal with conventional long range needs.How 'tarded is this?
We should just nuke China now before they can get any better/less bad. We do that, we won't need faggot ass ice-picking rounds ever again
>>65180316The problem that needs to be solved before this becomes a viable concept is that PDW rounds, especially AP ones, are so terrible at actually killing people compared to rifle rounds that the MP7/P90 were dropped by cops and spec forces because it took too many shots to stop targets in CQB that the risk of eating return fire while you sprinkled them with a nice collection of little holes was unacceptable.
>>65180316>How 'tarded is this?extremely. everything you said is shit, but that's to be expected from phone posters.
>>65180316How retarded do you have to be to think an MP7 is better at penetrating body armor than an M4?
>>65180345>At close range.M4s can do it and do it for longer ranges, but the concept of long range firefights where the service arm actually makes a difference seems to be a changing reality.Instead of worrying if the service arm can defeat armor at 500 meters, worry more about defeating it at 100 meters and in. Anything beyond that distance becomes the purview of drones, semi auto grenade launchers, and other specialized weapons along with existing MGS and DMRs.
>>65180337They’re even worse than common pistol caliber rounds at actually inflicting damage on living tissue, right? Bring back 9mm SMG /k/ino and use CBJ style specialized barrels+ammo for armor piercing needs. Better yet, just give everyone regular 9mm G9 style monolithic copper penetrator rounds at +p+++ pressure
>>65180358Sure whatever your pseudo-SMG PDW type thing of choice is. Point being the service arm becomes a purely close range weapon, which incidentally reflects the long standing findings that firefights tend to occur at closer ranges anyway. Instead of chasing the long distance kill power with service arms, shift that responsibility to weapons better suited to it.
>>65180337>>65180345Why dont they just use the same bullet design they did in 4.6 and 5.7 that lets it be armor penetrating, since regular bullets from those calibers arent armor penetrating anyway?
>>65180327Soviets wanted to and Reagan decided to build them into a superpower instead. Worst Republican president ever imo and that's not even talking about the amnesty issuem
>>65180316I think the concept has some merit. Sprinkle some lightweight GPMGs and DMRs into each squad, load up each submachine-gunner with a thousand round combat load and you’ve got a potent amount of lead going downrange. Hell, you also could give each infantryman an anti-drone device with the weight saved in ammo.
>>65180362They do. M855 is basically a longer, more potent 5.7 SS190.>>65180382They're going to have to piss bullets. Everyone from DocGKR onward has noted the PDW cartridges need to be sprayed for reliable terminal effects. That's risky collateral and just wastes ammo when 5.56 has a lot more authority. Furthermore, it is becoming very easy to armor against all but the most potent 5.7 and 4.6, namely the tungsten APs nobody is really using. There are all-PE lightweight plates able to stop M855 cold now. SS190 won't be a problem. Make them wider. Make them cover more. Add shields for CQB. 5.7s gonna be on the ropes.What people should be looking at is SOCOM's hypervelocity 5.56 HICAR at 84k PSI. 3,400ft/s out of an 11.5" suppressed is no slouch and M855A1 at that velocity will handle most plates below Level IV.And for Level IV, depending on the quality of the plate, just hit it multiple times. Double taps to the same close area will often result in a passthrough.
>>65180368That’s Nixon and Clinton.
>>65180406No IRCA was championed by Reagan. Plus he opened the door for more by granting special status to any migrant worker here for over 90 days. It was a joke. Really Nancy since he was more brain dead than Biden most of the time. Nixon did get the "hey mind if we nuke em?" call but Reagan spent nearly a week there to negotiate what would become the begining of America for firing it's manufacturing base. It's on him imo. He also literally advocated them as a Soviet adversary as well. In Nixon's time they were a backwater shithole. Reagan signed up to give them an industrial base.Reagan isn't a conservative demigod that people like to pretend he was. In many ways liberals, like the hated Carter, did less damage to this country intentionally or otherwise.
>>65180441>ReaganSometimes I wonder if his Alzheimer's didn't kick in way earlier than we think, because he seemed completely incapable of thinking more than a year ahead
>muh body armor Doesn’t do shit against overpressure. Use explosives and incendiaries.
>>65180446Gotta be honest he sucked.
>>65180327>let's just go straight for the murder-suicide nowQuitter talk.
>>65180458I'm split between two possibilities that make roughly equal sense to me. Either he was unironically completely evil, or a fucking smooth talking intellectual vegetable like actually clinically demented
>>65180462I like cutting the bullshit, let's stop dancing around what's really fucking obvious and eventual
>>65180356I thought the army going .277 Fury with the NGSW was going back to full battle rifle now.
>>65180479Yes, and every end user who can is telling them to fuck off and sticking with their M4s to the point SOCOM is tendering bids for M4 uppers for really fucking spicy 5.56
>>65180492WHICH IS BASED BECAUSE M855A1 AT 3,400 STILL HANDS MOST PLATES THEIR ASS.
>>65180446It did that's why they spun the humble rancher persona and kept him at his ranch most of the time.Republicans don't have any man of the people type guys that are heavy hitters unfortunately.
>>65180492>AHHHHHHHHHHHHH IT DIDN’T WIN IT DIDN’T WIN!This is just getting sad.
>>65180499Those type are usually in state government and get fucked up trying to go bigly. Everyone up that high is some form of slimy, even for a politician.
>>65180508Funny I actually had that in my post and removed it. I agree. Once they go state they see how shitty it is and bail or go full demon mode.
just bring back the m1 garand in 30-06, also bring back the m1919, and the m1911
>>65180508Not him, but you have to be seriously fucked up and sick in the head to want to go into politics in the first place. Anyone who seeks authority over another is a fucking psycho
>>65180513I think you owe a certain WW2 firearm an apology.
>>65180513>just bring back the m1 garand in 30-06, also bring back the m1919, and the m1911
>>65180316For the millionth fucking time, the M7 was not designed to defeat NIJ level IV equivalent body armor, it was designed and requested as a replacement rifle that offered better performance at distances exceeding the effective range of the M4 with more lethal terminal ballistics and better accuracy.>but a youtuber said it's 4MOAThe sub-MOA standard exists for precision rifles, not combat rifles.Some of the most expensive semi-automatic rifles available in barrel lengths exceeding 20" become 2 MOA rifles after a magazine is run through them because that is how heat works.>My 16" Aero AR is 1MOA all dayAnd the 5.56 it's lobbing become tennis balls at 500 meters.The standard issue 6.8x51mm cartridge is not an armor piercing round, it is not intended to be an armor piercing round.There are no standard issue or "ball" cartridges currently in service in the world that can, or are intended to, pierce NIJ level IV or equivalent body armor.
>>65180456That's the idea of this thought experiment TO&E. Less weight with service arms means more capacity to carry grenade launchers and other get-fucked big stuff. >>65180479Read nibba, read. This is a thought experiment about going the opposite direction from "let's just do battle rifles again"
>>65180548No one is complaining about the 250. Objectively it's better than a 249/240. The issue is battle rifles aren't viable in the current meta.>It's not apAgreed but that's what people keep asking for. Socoms new round is asking for an ap 5.56.
>>65180548You're wrong about the intent not including body armor defeat, but let's ignore that. (I know you won't by seriously let's try huh)So according to your own post, in a world with IV body armor the heavy as fuck NSGW sucks because it can't defeat body armor. Add that ultra extended range firefights were already a niche and now with drones saturating battlefields, the idea of slugging it out with small arms at long range is an even worse idea. Given this context, what should the purpose of a service arm be beyond close range use? Why not add more direct fire grenade and other munition weapons to a platoon to actually make killing body armored enemies at range viable.
>>65180513just bring back the m1 flamethrower
>>65180316bullets fuck your ass without Vaseline wearing armor
>>65180562>>65180548People seem to keep forgetting the M7 has two types of ammo. XM1186, which is a steel-core EPR and incidentally does defeat lower level armor (it's equivalent to M80A1), and then XM1184 tungsten core which is comparable to M1158 ADVAP, itself superior to M993, and therefore defeats most current Level IV plates at close standoff.
>>65180602>Vaseline wearing armorInteressant
>>65180562>You're wrong about the intent not including body armor defeat, but let's ignore that. (I know you won't by seriously let's try huh)Go ahead and post for me where in the DoD NGSW program it mentioned even in passing that the submitted ball cartridge or weapons should be capable of defeating NIJ level IV (or equivalent) body armor.>Add that ultra extended range firefights were already a niche and now with drones saturating battlefields, the idea of slugging it out with small arms at long range is an even worse idea. Sporadic firefights at extended range became the norm the moment we started issuing the following-Magnified optics on every weapon-Squad level thermal optics-Platoon level reconnaissance dronesCompound this with platoon-level access to things like ATAK, satellite reconnaissance, high-level drone reconnaissance, and 24/7 air asset availability, and suddenly firefights routinely occur at distances exceeding 600m>>65180603Correct, but keep in mind the two rounds you're describing are still in development. It is speculation to even suggest they are steel core or tungsten core. The army has not released any official information, performance data, or otherwise a peep on what these rounds are, what they're intended for, etc.Lake City hasn't produced one of either of these. SIG is still testing them with the Army and making changes to both the ammunition and the rifle (read: XM8 going "full-fleet").
>>65180613>still in developmentI'm afraid the development is very much done. The "X" is off the designations and M1186 samples have even reached guys like Buffman, where he's tested it against numerous armor plates and it behaves as a steel core EPR would. Can't reliably punch Level IV, but does give III to "III+" plates hell.>It is speculation to even suggest they are steel core or tungsten coreM1186 is steel core. That is beyond dispute. M1184 has to be tungsten, otherwise it cannot meet its requirements. >The army has not released any official information, performance data, or otherwise a peep on what these rounds are, what they're intended for, etcSee above plus the terminology general purpose and special purpose.
>>65180602Doesnt matter didnt die.
>>65180402You are such a retarded never left the house teenager that I am embarassed to mnow you exist.
>>65180602When will this fuddlore end.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNOCOAXefDs
>>65180655>can't beat the argument so just say shitthe post
>>65180659There's a certain point where something is no longer a discussion or talk ar even argumentIt happened dozens of posts back.You're a stupid nigger, further typing is unnecessary.
>>65180680>no longer a discussion or talk ar even argument>ar even argumentsaaaar
>>65180687Keep it up and I'll post a picture of my softy and balls again.
>>65180691No one wants to see your innie and grapes
>>65180687>spelling mistakesI know one of you isn't an AI and I also know I can't prove you aren't.Feeling smart yet?
>>65180712>>65180691get back to /gq/ gentlemen we have a Finnish elf to gangbang with a flashbang. I call first dibs on the puh and the aaaah
>>65180736Fuck is gq does 4chan have another gay faggot board
>>65180736Is that where you cane from the gayqueer faggot board. Answer me and I'll show you my dick.
>>65180406Kissinger and Clinton really.22" barrel on your standard AR 5.56 platform with M855 is enough for basically anything including the chink "level IV" you see floating around. AP4 isn't even mystical shit anymore they make tungsten AP rounds for .243rem and I've seen them cut through both steel and ceramic. If it really needed to up the anty you could just switch from .223 derived cartridges to .243 for an extra 300fps and a bit more weight to the projectile. If you wanted to go further a 26" barrel with different propellent could push you even further to almost 4,000fps but you'd have to make the chamber and gas system more robust.
>>65180742>doesn't know what /gq/ is, a general that's been here for twelve fucking yearsabsolutely new.>>65180746Show me this pencil. Can it defeat Level IV?
>>65180751Fuck you
>>65180750>22" barrel on your standard AR 5.56 platform with M855 is enough for basically anything including the chink "level IV" you see floating around.Let's try that again. See pic related and below link for a Chinese III+ stopping twenty one hits of M855A1 before failure. If it can handle M855A1 that well, M855 isn't going to be a problem out of a 22" barrel. Note that this is a very budget model and can be easily mass-produced in wartime.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvu1NI6sSAk>AP4 isn't even mystical shit anymoreIt's defeated even by very poor Level IV plates like the $86/plate fiberglass backed Highcom 4SAS4. Chinese plates easily outperform that. AP4, like other tungsten core 5.56, only defeats Level IV plates which use a Boron Carbide strike face due to specific "amorphization" failure. China rarely uses B4C.
Thread got quiet quick when FACTS and LOGIC came out.
>>65180548>the pajeet forehead dotfitting for such a izzat-saving copepost
>>65180878I don't understand the ass-covering revisionism of people saying the XM7 wasn't intended to defeat body armor. Homes, the basic round is an EPR. Special purpose round is ADVAP. It's built for busting plates - not as well as people wanted though, probably explaining the walkback.
>>65180896>the basic round is an EPRI love how the military once made Enhanced Performance Rounds, but people keep mistakenly believing the P stands for Penetration; it does not. You have been lied to by Obama; green tips are not some special penetrating ammo. They are just rounds made with copper rather than lead to reduce health concerns when training troops.
>>65181065>green tips>EPRThese are entirely different things. EPRs also greatly out-penetrate their basic counterparts even though that wasn't their entire purpose.
>>65180551You still want to be able to reliably suppress targets and put them down in close fights. I’m not sure the MP7 is the best choice, but your general idea has merit.
>>65180466he was a hollywood actor, not someone like nixon who was actually intelligent
the way the economy is going with so many laid off and outta work and unemployed lots of cannon fodder to be ritualistically slaughtered and sacrificed to Moloch to make more of that black magic black oils tragically magically appear
>>65181065I forgot about the green tip controversy, fuck that was retarded. We've had 1 nigger president, and he happened to be a lying retard, go figure.
>>65180316Give everyone the Kellgren MKR
>>65180513
>>65180356Do you think the military is talking about armor penetration because they're worried about kevlar soft armor?
Retvrn.
It is time to get the M14s out of storage once more
>>65180316Trying to build giga pressure exotic matter penetrator tip ammo to get through armour is retarded. Explosives don't care about armour if you're close enough for the blastwave to matter, and there has never been such a variety of ways to chuck explosives accurately at an enemy than right now. I actually think issuing PDWs is a good thing, not because they're going to punch through armour but because they're light and have low recoil. >PDWs standard issue>everyone carries a grenade launcher, FPV drones, or belts of AP ammo for a .338 MG. >PDWs are "oh shit" weapons for hosing down enemies at short range, hope and pray you hit the legs, arms, face or whatever. >real killing is done with grenade lanchers, FPV drones or beltfed.
>>65180316Machined some 7.62 slugs containing shaped charges. Reckon they would pierce about anything a man can carry? What would armor do in turn - go reactive?
>>65180456I hear Bearcat does a thorough job of squashing them under their own plates. I heard the guy they ran over last week might have just been maimed sans armor but the truck tire climbing a corner of the plate made his innards all eject same time. Orally.
>>65180528My Dad carried one of those from Le Havre, France to Torgau Germany - then broughtit jome to missouri to show my granny like the Spartans of old. Pops was a 5'4" motherufcker.Back thenArmy liked to give The Runt of the Litter the heaviest fucking gun.
>>65180316>Ditch intermediate caliber service rifles, but instead of going to a pissin' hot cartridge, make a PDW the service arm.Might as well keep the M4 and HK416. It is a pitty that bullpups never seem to win out in the carbine category. AUG had some oddities that in hindsight weren't so great, but the Tavor should have had staying power, but got replaced by the M4 the moment parts started needing replacement. Tavor was good enough to use, but not good enough to repair.
>>65180358>They’re even worse than common pistol caliber rounds at actually inflicting damage on living tissue, right?No. The 9in barrels of PDW/SMG allow for improved wounding over pistols due to higher velocity.>4.6mm is worse than 9mmNo.
>>65180456>Doesn’t do shit against overpressure. Overpressure is a meme. Thermobarics are only slightly better than straight HE in enclosed spaces.>Use explosives and incendiaries.There is a thing called ammo economy. Obviously to win you want to fire as much ammo as needed to fix and destroy the enemy and prevent friendly casualties. However the days of GWOT 500lb GBU airstrikes on a single sniper are not practical in a WW3 battlefield where you're instead using mortars and small drones on what can't be killed by direct fire. So yes, do kill with drones, but you're still carrying a rifle and machinegun and rocket launcher.
>>65180316Rotating barrel rifle, like an oversized Px4 that shoots 6.8 retired general kickback rounds at 102psi or whatever.You've tried everything else, now it's time to try that.
>>65180345>How retarded do you have to be to think an MP7 is better at penetrating body armor than an M4?You have to be OP levels of retarded.
>>65182697It's just a lack of research and falling for vidya memes. There is soft armor that can stop basic non-AP 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 threats. There is no known soft armor that can handle basic 5.56 like M193. Velocity is just too damn high. It's been said M193 will pierce over 200 layers of kevlar. A traditional IIIA panel is about 35.
>>65180316Outside of CQB, the correct answer is to use HE-frag, because it's not practical to cover the entire body in bulletproof armor. At longer ranges, said HE-frag should be guided.So, grenade launchers (which blur the line into man-portable low-velocity autocannons) with timed or prox-fuzed airburst capabilities, Class I attack drones, advanced comms for calling in rapid PGMM/PGK, etc. Stop trying to punch through the enemy's armor and simply go around it.
>>65180316PDWs are garbage, but to defeat armour Just aim for the parts not covered by armor, it's so fucking simple, aim for the pelvis, gut or head. Getting shot multiple times in the pelvis is going to fuck you up just as fast as the chest. Pelic fractures are awful
absolutely insane they went with a cartridge with 80k psi to get the velocity they wanted, instead of just making a bullpup with a 24in barrel. they're gonna be replacing those guns every other box of ammo
>>65181738the germans really did hit peak CQB with that
>>65180475its not 'cutting around the bullshit' its called having a small brain.
