Should drones be organic to the platoon level or squad level? Or is it a company or battalion level thing?
Different drones attached at different levels
The loitering munition .... is the 21st Century equivalent of the mortar.Soon, it will be as natural for us to see the loitering munition platoon as an integral part of an infantry company in the same way that the organic mortar or ATGM platoon is. In fact, the loitering munition will eventually be able to replace both.In time, instead of a grenade launcher, every rifleman may even handcarry a packed FPV drone which can be used to drop explosives on the heads of the enemy. Signallers will not need to carry a signal set or anntenae, a loitering UAV overhead will be able to function as a aerial rebro station. Forward air controllers will be obsolete as the UAV takes over. Commanders will not need a GPS, compass or binoculars, the UAV offers unlimited and unhindered line of sight as a navigation aid. UAVs will be able to carry out resupply missions by delivering ammunition, rations, and medical supplies to isolated units.Eventually ..... we may not even need to carry toilet paper into the field. The UAV will wipe our asses and act as a flying bidet
>>65186884Quadrorots and FPVs at the fireteam and squad level, RQ11s and Switchblade 600s at platoon level.
>>65186892Sounds like a logistical nightmare
Why did they replace the ultimax
>>65186885fpbp/thread>>65186899I dunno, but I'd guess they saw that it was too expensive to maintain that bougie bespoke production line
>>65186905why not replace the service rifle too then? i shot that shit before, it fucking sucks. the scope isn't thermal and in the dark, is piss. swap it for a rail and buy some thermal sights
>>65187028>why not replace the service rifle toobecause it has at least 5x (probably more) user base, such as it isevery storeman and lorry driver in a logistics or engineering battalion will be packing a rifle, but these units don't need squad machine guns, yeah?
>>65187031you can replace them slowly, one rifle at a time
>>65187032not the point; the point is that the greater user base of the rifle means that it has greater production economies of scale, bringing down the per-unit cost of the rifle to a level Singapore feels comfortable within contrast, it MIGHT be that it is less economical to build the Ultimaxall this is speculation of course
>>65187055they are rich enough to set up a new production line. they spend obscene amounts in their military
>>65186894Sounds like something that even slavs figured out how to do.Army without FPV on squad level is not a real army
>>65187117>US and Israel at war>Saudi Arabiaon and off war with yemen, arms race with iran>ukraineat total warWhy are the nordic states except sweden spending so much? Why is singapore blowing so much cash wtf is going on?
>>65186889>The UAV will wipe our asses and act as a flying bidet>graduate high school>economy is totally fucked>fry cook at McDongals positions all taken by jeet visa workers>enlist in the Big Beautiful Army (renamed in 2029)>hopefully will get a decent MOS, but even Ablative Counter-UAS Specialist (11B) will do>get assigned to Battlefield Hygiene UAS Operator>initially assigned to unit dropping TP to infantry platoons in remote outposts>get promoted to combat hygienist >every day fly my swarm of FPeeV drones as ass level>eventually get so good at hitting the starfish i can do a whole squad in one water tank>retire with full military honors and a PooTSD diagnosis >spend rest of my days arguing on twitter, /k/ and various subreddits while flexing that my opponent never served like I did
>>65187150Grim future
Drones should be squad level recon assets and platoon level loitering munitions. Recon drones at the squad level to guide the fire teams and then the platoon lead can use the info from recon to make decisions for mortars or munition drones.
>>65187171>Recon drones at the squad level to guide the fire teamsI don't think that makes much sense, any system that requires a dedicated operator should probably be platoon level at the lowest, even if only to avoid stripping manpower from the squad level. A recon section attached to a platoon leader makes more sense, because it lets the Lt coordinate the entire unit as opposed to trying to have a squad leader micromanage 3-6 man teams. I'd probably move most drone strike assets to company level.That being said, if we presume that drones are going to continue to get smaller, autonomous and easy to use then I could see this changing. A pocket sized disposable dronelet you could give a verbal command and have it buzz off to check to see if the next house over is occupied could easily be integrated
>>65186885FPBPSection level needs some basic recon and maybe replace AT with AT drones depending on the war you are fighting.Platoon level needs armed UGVs, a dedicated drone team and more capable recon.Company needs a couple of drone teams they can move around.
FPV drones are too difficult to operate and expensive to risk in every infantry squad on top of the existing duties.
>>65186884Do these bullpups take stanag mags?
>>65187199Literal brown backwards extremists can figure them out.
>>65186884It should be the wargear upgrades of your Tau Commander.
>>65187205I think those are proprietary mags
>>65187208As with IEDs, operated by specially trained units within the brown extremist organizations, same as in conventional militaries. Your average 70 IQ jihadi can't even use the sights on his AK properly, he's not going to be figuring out FPVs
>>65187208While it appears he meant it literally, I'd argue that FPVs are too dedicated of a resource to integrate into the squad level from an organizational perspective. I assume that an FPV team is going to be at least two men strong, the operator plus the ammo/drone bearer who also provides security. How do we integrate that into the squad?>6 man squadsEither we go with a 4-man maneuver element and abandon the base of fire team entirely in favor of a drone team, or we go with a 3-man maneuver team and reduce the fire element with a lone automatic rifleman, which is unrealistic>8 man squad4 man maneuver, 2 man fire, 2 man droneBetter, but still reduces the base of fire team to the absolute minimum required to support sustained fire>10 man squadAt this point we've more or less returned to a relatively standard squad with an FPV element, at which point the question should be asked why even have the drone team be part of the squad? If we move a strike drone team to the platoon level and make it a larger team we can let the squad perform their duties without being bogged down with a drone team, as well as coordinate support with other squads. No platoon will be operating beyond a minute or two flight for an FPV, so its not like you're diluting overall firepower either
isnt a mortar cheaper in the longrun?
>>65187333No because you have to carry a shitload of weight in tube and ammo to maybe get a hit vs getting a hit with each "round".As others have said it's hard to intergrate FPVs at the section level without losing firefight effectiveness but at the platoon and higher levels everyone should be looking at running fiber FPVs / autonomous drones because of the high PoK.
We are getting to the point where it's hard to justify investing in anything that isn't either more drones or increased drone capabilities, drones to carry smaller drones, signal repeters, mesh networks etc.I was skeptical at first, but it just doesn't make sense to have anything but drone teams and high end assets to protect them and target the enemy's like aviation and long range cruise/ballistic missiles, why have fighting positions with riflemen and MGs that can be easily spotted from the air and taken out instead of drone ambushes?Every single role can be taken over by specialized drones.
>>65187117>they are rich enough to set up a new production linethey probably thought they could sell themthen realised that infantry weapons are too niche and too much of a racket for them to break into that marketand are now ditching the idea
>>65186884Multiple levels. Every trad infantry platoon needs drones at platoon level and company level. Battalion level needs its own deep recon and artillery scouting drones. There also need to be roving drone teams of 2-4men with FPVs like the snipers of yore.>>65187360This is the overinvestment in good margins fallacy. Yes it's logical to dump most of your resources in the cheap + high returns resources, but you still need all the ingredients for the whole system.
>>65187360>tanks are the new meta, let's have scout tanks, cruiser tanks, infantry tanks, heavy tanks, we won't need no steenking infantry
>>65187402This is why I said you need the high end systems to get a decisive advantage, but at the lower tactical and operational levels, war has changed, this is 1917 and tanks appeared on the battlefield and war will never be the same again, doctrine will have to change at a fundamental level.
>>65187414and the mobile protect firepower provided by tanks changed everything, the way forces attacked, defended and counterattacked changed entirely, now you have armored mobile reserves delivering decisive strikes both on the defense and offense, reaching deep inot the enemy rear area and ending battles and defining campaigns.Drones have already moved past being a tactical novelty and are delivering decisive operational results, this can't be ignored, you are being France at the start of ww2.
>>65187415The lines in Ukraine 2026 are still held by infantry, dumb artillery still does the majority of killing, guided missiles still do the time-sensitive deep strikes, and clearing urban areas still takes large numbers of humans, who invariably ask for tanks to support. War has changed less than you think. Frankly, jerking off to logistical interdiction or FPVs blasting conscripts is a way of avoiding investigating the doctrinal revolution. The question for our time isn't 'how many FPVs we need' (lots), it's how to take out the enemy's 20-40km depth drone operators. Tanks and dumb artillery can't do that. FPVs are shit at it. We need fixed wing scout drones with ESM to establish surveillance superiority.
>>65187441except what killed France in 1940 was AIRPOWER, not tanksand nobody is talking about eliminating drones entirely, what you are being obtuse about is your statement that>>65187360>it's hard to justify investing in anything that isn't either more drones or increased drone capabilities>Every single role can be taken over by specialized dronesso tell me, did specialised tanks take over every role in WW2? or today? NOin your rush to avoid making all the mistakes France did in 1940, you're making all the mistakes the Allies did in 1943
>>65187360>>65187441Ukraine is a very unique conflict. It is shaped in part by Russian incompetence stretching things out into the fifth year, and its idiosyncratic battlespace. Not to suggest there aren't many lessons regarding the utility of drones and other innovations spawned from the conflict, but neither should one become myopic and loose grasp of the full spectrum of warfare.What if, say, a hypothetical future conflict doesn't happen to end up frozen in open terrain? What if one side develops sufficient countermeasures, like, arming their tanks with supplemental laser weaponry to zap drones like bugs? Or simply develops vehicles sufficiently impervious to such attack by other means?Drones have successfully aided in functionally freezing the conflict in Ukraine even further, forcing both sides to focus on long-range strategic attacks in hopes of dislodging the situation. Hence, frontline drone-weaponry is functionally a defensive asset, since neither party has an advantage in terms of such weaponry, nor makes much progress because of them. But how does one win a war through defense, as ultimately victory lies in the offense? And as with the Western Front, where the machine gun and barbed wire were nails pinning down the front, the means to break through will eventually be devised. And I have a hunch it won't be just another drone.
>>65187234Yeah but can it take stanags? Seems dumb to field 2 different rifles in the same caliber but with incompatible mags in your squad.
>>65187497>Ukraine is a very unique conflictNice, the hubris that is killing IDF soldiers, killed US service members and will kill even more in the future, I guess we will have to watch a couple hundred US soldiers getting their heads blown up on camera before you wake up.
>>65188060>ignore entire point of post>start jerking off to idea of US casualtiesimplessive
>>65187298>10 man squad Fuck it, ditch the fire & maneuver concept, go for a heavy squad. Killing people by pew pew-ing them with assault rifles is inefficient anyway. - 1 guy with a reloadable launcher (PSRL-1, CG etc.) - 1 ammo bitch for the launcher- 1 guy with a light commando mortar (LGI/FLY-K) - 1 ammo bitch for the mortar - 1 guy with a lightweight GMPG (6.5, 6.8, 7.62, whatever) - 1 ammo bitch for the MG - 1 guy with a select-fire DMR - 1 guy with a (mag-fed) autoshotgun (anti-drone) - 1 guy with a recon drone - 1 poor bastard to coordinate this clusterfuck Idea being to demolish everything with explosives, and hose down with MG fire anybody who tries to escape (also plink them off with the DMR).
>>65187741This is the "country" that puts you in prison for chewing gum or whatever they do. SAR-21 was badass in BF4, though.
>>65188060Anon, fiber optics are already obsolete in Ukraine. They've moved on to mid range fixedwings. The concept you're probably imagining, a squad of grunts with FPVs, is over. This is an operational level change. FPVs are a tactical weapon.
>>65188280>fiber optics are already obsolete in Ukrainealways had been. it was a revisit of TOW-1 / HOT / Konkurs and died for the same reason: wires snag
>>65188255you don't get to be one of the world's cleanest cities without breaking eggsand nobody gets imprisoned for chewing gum, its sale is simply not allowed, and you get fined if you stick it all overyou can bring it in anytime, nobody cares
>>65188280>fiber optics are already obsoleteThey are extending the range FPV drones can reach by carrying them on a platform like a UGV, USV or larger UAV, from that launching platform a fiber optic drone can reach way beyond its normal range with all its natural advantages like going through jamming and being undectable by EW means, recently they hit a substation that had a protective cage against larger drones with small fiber optic drone that slipped through it.Once you start with the concept of drones enabling drones, the limits are yet to be found and if you aren't expending your time and resources innovating in this area, you are behind.
>>65186884I'm still trying to make sense of why they dropped the Ultimax and nothing comes up.
If there are any Singaporeans in this thread, I'd like to know to role of the Hunter AFV when the Singaporean Army has about 800 Bionix II in service.
>>65188762Ultimax is an old platform + lAR logistics commonality with the SAR21 At least that's what we were told in reservist
>>65188410Are you aware of the fact that the spool is on the drone and snagging isn't really a big problem?
>>65188880Shhh, don't tell him.
>>65188880Not that anon, but it fiber optics being obsolete has nothing to do with spool locations; it's because FPVs have limited loiter and range relative to physically superior fixed wings. >>65188255>This is the "country" that puts you in prison for chewing gum or whatever they doNasty thugs need to be oppressed early. Singapore is clean, orderly, and the least corrupt nation in the world.
>>65188778Bigger platform do more thing, most importantly got space for air conditioning
>>65187192>maybe replace AT with AT dronesQuadcopters are a bitch to assemble under fire, and you don't want a rigid frame with fragile rotors floating around in your rucksack. Maybe someone will come up with a good design for travel, but for now there's still no competition with disposables for going from "CONTACT, TANK!" to getting a shot downrange.
>>65186884The real but lame answer is that nobody knows. Proper C-UAS weapons and doctrine have yet to be utilized and you have to also factor in the tactics and doctrine being seen in Ukraine and how drone warfare could change if different doctrine was utilized (e.g. actually having a security zone). Drones could still be deadly and numerous in 10-15 years. Or they could be hard countered by effective C-UAS and proper adjustments to doctrine. tl;dr we're pretty much in the same place that futurists were in post WWI who though landships would become a thing since the emergence of the tank.
Small tactical drones must be deployed at the lowest level that is affordable to do so, squad preferably or at least platoon level, to force your men to patrol, defend or clear a position without organic tactical UAS support is giving up on a powerful force multiplier for no good reason.
>>65189348The technologies that allowed the deployment of mobile protected firepower didn't go away after ww1 and it revolutionized warfare despite all kind of counters that were subsequently developed, you are too focused on specific form factor, like if it's going to be FPV drones directly controlled by a person, if it uses fiber or not.The technologies that allow the employment of UAS are not going anywhere and the impact of the capabilities they bring, namely observation and stand off precise strikes along the whole battlespace are here to stay.
>>65188413>>65189263The vast majority of Americans and Australians on /k/, hate and despise Singapore
>>65189390You're a Malaysian spammet with an inferiority complex. Many such cases. Sad!
>>65188255>SAR-21 was badass in BF4It was pretty mediocre actually. Most of the other assault rifles mogged it.
when are infantry going to get augmented reality displays with a drone fed mini map like in muh video games?
>>65189398>MalaysianIndog
>>65187192Replace AT with AT drones? Are you retarded? AT is already very cheapNot the same situational purposes at all.
>>65189398I’m Australian and I hate them, mainly cause they are majority chinese and see them as suspect The entire nation state is literally owned and run by one family. They are exactly as you would expect: sub human filthy greedy trash draining the blood out of everything and imposing nepotism on a massive scale. Literally sub-asiatic brown kikes. According to the Panama papers they've also stolen almost 1.5 trillion out of Australia through hosting a safe port for white collar criminals.One of these days Australia will need to invade them and liquidate all their assets to get it back. Sounds weird now, but by 2040 people will be thinking it. Watch.
>>65189398Singapoor is an american dog barking for its masters. Who would want to get along with an american "ally".
>>65191940>>65191930giday mate I too am Bruce Digger from Canberra Daerah and I hate porky chinks crikey we should be friends with peaceful Muslims who are not terrorists and anyway there is more of us and majority rules
>>65191950Indonesia is not a beggar nation unlike certain others
>>65191971>280 million population nation seething about the richer 35 million population neighbour they failed to invade the last timelmaoeveri tiem
>>65191984>richertry begging somemore lmao. maybe if you beg America hard enough they will allow Norway sell NSM lmao
>>65191990why are you reposting your own posts?by the way, where are you, Medan? Jakarta? how's things over there? your sis up for sale?
>>65191984>supposedly "richer" neighbor>all alutsista procurement frozen since 2023>NSM banned>AMRAAM blocked>Kuwaiti F-18 cancel>LCS delay 10 years (now indefinite)>defense budget kosong
>>65191930>55469536>56257917>57286727>57678469>57796269>57902440>58181851>58251013>58463112>58887679>59140511>60443919>61020415>61044207>61049827>61090085>61565107>61686084>61888398>62578948>63527517>63654257>63824287>64249164>64386744>64400072>64428835>65191930tranny jannys, earn your fucking tendies and rid the board of /int/ spammersfucking losers
>>65188778Bionix is where the older reservists get used as ATGM and drone fodder. Hunter is where younger reservists get used as ATGM and drone fodder.
