https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/failures-indian-tejas-crippling-fleet
>>65208440>What went so wrong?It was built by India
> how can the defense ministry respondStop trying to build jets in india without spending the 40+ years of R&D leg work required.Buy foreign jets and stop pissing money down a drain.
>>65208444TRVTH
>>65208448french here, please no... they are literally crashing our reputation with no survivor
>>65208440IT WAS DAT OLD BITCH, SHE REDEEM THE CARDS SO MILITARY NOT ABLE TO AFFORD SHIPPING FROM FRANCE
>>65208545That's because french jets are garbage, they're killing our brave pilots, Indian pilots are some of the best in the world
>>65208440they didn't outsource the construction and design to literally anyone else
>>65208444Built? Built?! The retards can't even finish the original order of 40 despite the order having been placed all the way back in 2006!
>>65208444kek, bodied those jeets
>>65208545It's okay, france is doing a great job of ruining their own jets.Rafale F5 is the new FCAS, even dassault has started calling the F5 a "bridge to 6th gen" which is just pure cope. There is no real plan for a domestic FCAS replacement program, nor is there any money to pay for it even if a program did exist.India's 114 Rafale order is supposed to help fund the M88 TREX upgrade, as well as the nEUROn derived UCAV wingman development.The 114 rafale order is ALSO tied to the indian/french AMCA engine development deal which would see Safran develop a clean sheet 5th gen engine for india's AMCA program. But that clean sheet engine requires the M88 TREX upgrade to be successful, as that TREX upgrade is supposed to be a technology proof that can then be scaled up for india's AMCA engine.The problem is the M88 TREX upgrade is already incredibly difficult because of the size/age of the engine core, it could take years of testing before france has a working engine, and since this engine upgrade gatekeeps the AMCA engine, which itself gatekeeps france's 6th gen VCE engine design, there is basically zero real reason to believe france is even capable of producing a 6th gen airframe by themselves at this point.
>>65208602Built, yes.Built for Big Pakistani Amraam
>>65208448Indians are the most delusional race on earth. I had the misfortune of working with several of them. They will promise things out the ass. When you try to point out all the technical challenges, they'll double down in some izzat preserving instinct and say they're so good they can handle it no problem <insert head bobble>
>>65208684>nEUROnVaporware, and its pajeet equivalent GhatACK is in desperate need of a, and I quote, "cum production partner"
>>65208701I'm aware, I didn't say anything good about it.In fact the timeline they have for it is hilariously optimistic to the point of absurdity.
>>65208705I know you didn't bro. Tis for the keks.Reading about the unmanned jeetcraft gave me a hearty laugh, they've really not thought it out too well.That being said anything they fly can be categorized as unmanned because, well, anybody who has seen an indian can see why there is a categorical mismatch with what the term "manned" implies.
>>65208444CHECKED
>>65208440Indians' overpopulation, population density, izzat culture, low IQs, and massive total population make for some very weird dystopian dynamics different than what you'd see in Africa. They have very few smart people per capita BUT they have so many people total they do have enough intelligent people to create real things. The western ratio is typically 1 genius and 3-4 intelligent people per 40-50 normies. In India that's more like 1 intelligent man per 300 retards. It's a very flat org chart. There are a few legitimately human Indians, but they face a different challenge from Western geniuses. The Western genius's personal challenge is admitting the normies are useful and avoiding becoming an overconfident sociopath. For Indians its the opposite: they have to train themselves to sociopathically ignore the masses and accept the normal people of their race are retards who cannot be fixed.
>>65208440>Indian government wants the Tejas to have an entirely domestically designed and built engine >High performance jet engines are stupidly complex specialty industry >Despite having no expertise in this field, Indian government gives the engine program a shoe string budget and rushed development time >que decades of cost overruns and nothing getting done until they switch to a foreign jet engine Unrealistically ambitious and underfunded seems to be one of the main tells of Indian military procurement.
>>65208939WIth the amount of time and money they've spent on it to date, if they had actually given that much money/time back in the late '90s or early 2000s they MIGHT'VE had a shot.But with this piecemeal bullshit and demanding success in just a couple of years, it's no surprise they come back needing more money and lacking any real progress every single time.
>>65208939India is a country that with Yoga like balance, manages to constantly position itself on the peak of the Dunning Krueger curve
>>65208939I'd add that India is too ambitious with procurement. It was originally just a replacement for the MIG-21 but then it morphed into an everything fighter that was supposed to be bootstrapping local industry to compete with modern airframes.They could have just gone slow and steady. Nobody would laugh if they were honest and made incremental steps with aircraft that were worse than the international competition BUT that built up their own industrial expertise and supply chains. Make it a multi-generational programme with steady support and you could get there.>>65208448>Buy foreign jets and stop pissing money down a drain.Incompatible with Indian foreign and industrial policy.
>>65209138>>Incompatible with Indian foreign and industrial policy.Sure, but their foreign policy forbids them from joining either eastern or western hegemonies, and thus they can never be a close enough ally to either side to get the tech transfer they're looking for, so instead they get treated like a bank by france/russia/US instead of as a peer or true development partner.Just like the current AMCA engine deal with Safran, they're promising full tech transfer but everyone knows that'll never actually happen no matter what the contract says. They'll be reliant on france for decades to actually produce the hot section at scale, india might be able to hand build a handful of engines in a lab, but france will be the only one capable of producing the engine at the scale needed for a fighter program.And at the end of the day Safran is treating the AMCA engine as the bridge between the M88 and their VCE engine for 6th gen, so once again, france is basically treating india like a bank for their own R&D.
>>65209164Other parties are extremely willing to do deals and tech transfer. The government however requests for insane things>100% tech transfer>85% local production>Foreign company is culpable for failures despite NOT ACTUALLY MANAGING PRODUCTION
>>65209170>Other parties are extremely willing to do deals and tech transferNot for shit india actually needs, which is why they push for 100% tech transfer and local production.They've played the tech transfer game for 40+ years now and they've never gotten a real fighter out of it, they're making these demands because they're tired of getting jerked around.but since they really have no way to stop it, it'll just keep happening. It's not like india can go buy chinese jets.
>>65209138> Nobody would laugh if they were honest and made incremental steps with aircraft that were worse than the international competition BUT that built up their own industrial expertise and supply chains. The problem seems to be that the India stronk crowd takes great offense at the implication that anything Indian made isn't #1. So even if the program is meant to cultivate industrial expertise that doesn't exist yet, blinged up requirements are written up as if they do.
>>65208440India has the same timeframe problem the UK had in the late 20th century. When a program's budget is cut but to make up for it the completion date is set back there is a critical limit which is the remaining career length of the senior/expert people involved. If those people are 45 and there is 20 more years for the project to go its probably going to die because the new people coming in won't be up to speed and no-one will be there to supply critical details things will go off course. Tejas was serious development in 1986. 40 years. Very unlikely the original senior designers are still there, maybe some juniors. This sort of problem is a "not my problem" to politicians.
>>65208440because they didn't design a f102
>>65208444>>65208939https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_MarutThe funny part is this isn't remotely India, or even HAL's first rodeo when it comes to indigenous, albeit the first time around they had Kurt Tank carrying them until he got fed up with jeet BS and left.Wouldn't you know it, it was grossly underpowered then too.
>>65209482*Indigenous jet fighters
>>65208440Without being too political I'll just say that indians are even more corrupt than the Chinese.
>>65208939>Turkey is currently on schedule to produce their domestic engines by mid 2030>South Korea is likely to do the same >China's domestic engine program is quickly catching up to the West>Ukraine's previous plans to produce a domestic engine has been put on pause due to the war>Somehow India still can't figure it the fuck outWhat's their fucking problem
>>65208440India
>>65209549Bureaucracy and multiple players.Right now India is going to produce the Ge-414 from the AmerimuttsSafran is offering the m-88 based upgraded engine for AMCA on top of that M-88 will be produced for the RafaleThen rolls Royce offering engine codevelopment for AMCAThen Al-31 is already being produced as well as the al-41/51 for the fgfa su-57 orderThen the Kaveri for the Tejas mk1 and Ghatak UCAV
>>65208440Should have added some canards
>>65208440>What went so wrong?they can't even build their own rifle, what makes you think they could tackle a fighter jet?
>>65208690israel air force is sole reason US airplanes have good K/D
>>65209379> there is a critical limit which is the remaining career length of the senior/expert people involved. If those people are 45 and there is 20 more years for the project to go its probably going to die because the new people coming in won't be up to speed and no-one will be there to supply critical details things will go off course. Tejas was serious development in 1986. 40 years. Very unlikely the original senior designers are still there, maybe some juniors. This seems to also apply to the Arjuan tank program to a lesser extent. Technically authorization began in 70s, design didn't start until the 80's, it underwent trials/revisions in the 90s, and only started serial production in the 2000s with the army randomly throwing new requirements at this point*. That's a sufficiently drawn out timeframe that I don't think most of the initial senior engineers/designers would have been around by the end. And given the limited production run (they only made about 120 of the things, compared to the thousands of Soviet/Russian tanks the Indians operate) I can't imagine much expertise at building an indiginious design at scale was either generated or retained.*Requirements that didn't apply to the licensed built T-90s coming into Indian Army service at the time because Indian bureaucracy is fucking random.
>>65209164>their foreign policy forbids them from joining either eastern or western hegemonies, and thus they can never be a close enough ally to either sideThis always struck me as kinda retarded.
>>65210663It struck you that way, because it is.They hyped themselves up enough that they honestly thought they could be the next china once russia started failing in the early '90s.Sadly China was the next china and india has been unable to cope with that fact ever since.They're diametrically opposed to china, but they also can't "lower" themselves to becoming true allies with the west as it would be an admission that India isn't a real global power. For the last 30-40 years this worked fine since China (and Pakistan by proxy) were stuck on 3rd and 4th generation fighter jets and shitty russian tanks.But with china making real strides in aviation over the last 20 years and actually being able to produce at scale 5th gen fighters, AND now offering those fighters to pakistan, India has gotten to the end of the road.Sadly they've gotten to the end of the road AFTER 40 years of propaganda and brainwashing to convince the domestic public that india is strong and india can make everything themselves. So it's not like Modi can suddenly pivot to holding hands with the west and buying western jets/tanks. Yet at the same time, India is hopelessly outclassed by the new generation of chinese fighters and they really have no answer.Even if safran does agree on the AMCA engine development deal, that would still mean we're looking at a minimum of 8-12 years before AMCA would be flying, and a more realistic timeline would be 15-20 years.Rafale F5 while better than their current jets, can't compete with the J-20 or J-35And India can't buy F-35sSo yeah, they're fucked, and it's really their own fault.
>>65210675just build hundreds of prop fighters. the chinese jets will eventually run out of missiles
>>65210675>They're diametrically opposed to china, but they also can't "lower" themselves to becoming true allies with the west as it would be an admission that India isn't a real global power.Another dumb thing is the stupid fuck-fuck games they keep playing with their own currency and capital markets. Also, their agricultural subsidies makes the US look like they hate farmers.
>>65208444
>>65210675>They hyped themselves up enough that they honestly thought they could be the next china once russia started failing in the early '90s.What's extra goofy about that is India wasn't exactly doing fantastic in the early 90's either. The License Raj and shitty central planning had stagnated/fucked the Indian economy for decades. I think the main thing that saved them from critical existance failure was that they DID allow some (massively regulated and corruption prone) free enterprise and hadn't been running decades of near war time levels of military spending like the Soviets had been. That's less being poised to become one of the next great powers, and more being in desperate need to unfuck decades of poor decisions.My impression is that what's fucked them in relation to China is that their economic reform/liberalization programs came about a decade latter and in a lot of areas were just more half-assed. Which has finally manifested in such disparities as China mass producing their own domestic Stealth Fighters, while India is just barely getting a light 4th gen jet into service after 40 years.
>>65210971Most people focus on the cultural stuff, but the real kicker is that politically India is closer to a confederation of autonomous states bound by a heavily centralized and regulated quasi-command economy. Even if they fixed all the cultural and social issues they'd still be fucked by the sheer inefficiency of their national economy.
>>65211454You can flip whatever you said and it remains true.
>>65208444FPBP
>>65208444Fippy bippy pack it up.
>>65210116>completely ignores US air to air in every other war/pol/ has rotted your zoomer brain into mush.
