Is the reason stated in the headline just an excuse for the US wanting to recover its weapon stockpiles?
>>65213340i still can't believe there are people that continue to deny that the cheeto is compromised by russia
>>65213343desu I don't think it's him, but rather numerous people around him, and he's getting a bit senile. Wouldn't have fired Gabbard if he was compromised, I figure
Oh well, gotta develop our own then. I hear Rheinmetall and MBDA know some people in Ukraine.
>>65213340>>65213343It's 5D chess to get Europe to rearm. Trust the plan.
>>65213445>Europe rearms>realises it doesn't need the US anymore>cuts US-favouring deals down to sizeThe wild part is that it's effectively a repeat of what happened to US influence over Ukraine. Pic relevant.
>>65213340US has almost a monopoly on shit like this, but in last years, thanks to the clusterfuck that's the US weapon sales (Ukraine shitstorm, redirecting current production to Israel and US units in that region), everyone are trying to make own stuff.F-35 is going strong and there's no alternative, but MIC is losing on other things, weird that they don't mind too much, yeah, they will bitch and moan now and then, but that's all
>>65213464>weird that they don't mind too muchI thought those guys had powerful lobbies. Its a bit weird they just sit on their hands while their market is being destroyed.
>>65213481...that's the whole damn point, retard. Be careful what you wish for.
>>65213481Make your own lithography machines
>>65213464Tomahawks do have several Temu equivalents (China/Norks have cruise missiles that at least on paper match the previous gen) and are pretty much a solved technology. Europe SHOULD be able to match them without trouble but given their procurement 'process' it will inevitably fail due to Franco-German bullshit.
>>65213481Those thing are our export golden goose, we DON'T wanna them, or anyone else, to make their own
>>65213498But those aren't widely exported, US were selling Tomahawks, mostly on time, so US allies didn't have strong motivation to pay for development of homegrown equivalents
>>65213481Krauts and Norwegians already have a replacement under development, called the Tyrfing.
>>65213340>recover its weapon stockpiles?No.RTX is already planning to at least double if not triple Tomahawk procurement.More likely an incentive for Ukraine ceasefire negotiations.>>65213454>US influence over UkraineZelensky just said this week that only the Patriot missile can reliably intercept Russian ballistic missiles>>65213464>weird that they don't mind too much>>65213470>I thought those guys had powerful lobbiesalmost as if the MIC and its lobby is in reality barely a rounding error in the US economy, and the whole "MIC influence" theory was always Soviet disinformatsiya>>65213526>Tyrfinghas barely 60% of the range of Tomahawk, although it is said to be supersonic, which is good.
>>65213470have you seen how much ammo that Trumps been ripping off? or the budget that goes with it?they don't care, they are getting cost plus +
>>65213445i mean, it's working.. and it's not a secret. it's not just the US that wants europe to put more money in the military. european hawks have been saying it for years but they were sidelined.
>>65213516Agreed. Everyone is wary of dependence on China and the Norks cruise/ASM sales are confined to SEA nations that still get along with them and a few places in Africa. Those are places that the US mostly (mostly, i could see us selling tomahawks to Vietnam) will not sell to anyway. Who the fuck sells long range nuclear capable missiles to Myanmar unless everyone hates you already?
>>65213530>almost as if the MIC and its lobby is in reality barely a rounding error in the US economyAmerica spent $2 trillion on the Iraq war, that's more than a rounding error.
>>65213561now look what that money went to, it wasn't all arms
>>65213343Russia is such a non issue they can't even handle Ukraine
>>65213409Gabbard wasn't fired over cocksucking ziggers, she got fired over cocksucking Iran (and not cocksucking Israel). Gabbard is a dedicated 5th columnist trying to destroy the West and help the shitskins, chinks, zegroes and various other assortments of 3rd worlders take over. That means that aside from being pro-Russia, pro-GASsad, she's also pro-Iran. Unfortunately for her Trump was convinced by Israel that he has a bone to pick with Iran, so bye bye Tulsi.
>>65213445This. EUROPES: STAND ON YOUR OWN HIND LEGS!
>>65213492Boohoo, one corner case we can duplicate in a month. Show the class your Area 51 and captured alien tech?
>>65213583Weird cause she is a jeeta and cocksucks modi and india. I thought the poos loved isreal?
>>65213583Israel isn't "the West", by the way
>>65213530>although it is said to be supersonic, which is good.Modern tomahawks are stealth and supersonic is not stealth.
>>65213481Isn't that literally what they're doing across their entire defense industry?
>>65213530>Zelensky just said this week that only the Patriot missile can reliably intercept Russian ballistic missilesOkay, and? How does that change that US influence over Ukraine has decreased massively compared to 2022? Oh yeah, it doesn't. Retard.
>>65213343I can see the logic in it. Putin is running out of time and options, eventually he will get desperate, Europe is hyper critical of us, Detaching from NATO was meant to make them retart their own domestic MIC(?), our stockpiles are currently low and we are already engaged with Houthis & Iran and China is always lurking.
>>65213454It is their backyard. Why should we mow it for free?
>>65213628>muh spendingMassie got almost as much outside money as his opponent did.
>>65213951>why should we keep buying significant influence with them for pennies on the dollar?The actual irony is that the very post you answered to already told you why, and you're jsut too fucking illiterate to figure it out.
>>65213951Excellent opinion. I, John American from Texas oblast agree.
>>65213957'tds' is a made up term that is used by MAGAtards when tehy have nn oargumentns
>Does the Trump regime operate on bad faith?Do you even need to ask?
>>65213628>Israel isn't "the West"That's true, Israel is the main US ally in the Middle EAST, andy our spending to ensure its security it's pennes in comparison of having strong influence on Middle Eastern politics
>>65213561now annualise that>>65213904>Modern tomahawks are stealthNo, Tomahawks aren'tModern American cruise missiles, yes>>65213938It'll go back up the instant the weapons pipeline is turned on again, because the yuros still haven't learned their lesson>Aster B1NT production: dogshit>number of new combat brigades formed since 2022: zero
>>65213978Where is your rebuttal?
>>65213481>I wish that the political entity worth one sixth of the planet's economic output would stop being influencably dependent on the USA!
>>65213951>for freelol, (You) ain't paying for shit anymore ever since old Joe left. Ukraine is paying for it with both Euro and their own money. The only reason we haven't seen more exports to them is because the presidential jerk circles keep cockblocking actual sales, plus the iranian fuck up exhausted a lot of stockpiles, specially of interceptor missiles.
>>65213591>we can duplicate in a monthlol. lmao.
>>65213983Like anon said, take your /pol/ shit somewhere else faggot.
>>65214042>(You) ain't paying for shit anymore ever since old Joe left.That was the point, imbecile. If they want or need it that badly then they can pay more.
>>65213989>having strong influence on Middle Eastern politicsDunno. I would say that when it comes to the Middle East, Israel is the one who decides the policy while America follows it.
>>65214023>>65213904modern tomahawks do have a reduced rcs nosecone and have always had a recessed engine with a bottom air intake unlike say ALCM with its engine hanging on the bottom exposed but it's not nearly as stealthy as modern missiles like JASSM with their entire body, wing shape, angle and construction designed to be low observable.
>>65214042>(You) ain't paying for shitNeither is Europe. They're lending their aid to Ukraine, not giving it.But they demanded free gibs from the US.
>>65214032Refusing to sell weapons to allies and members of NATO hurts US businesses, and will lead to lack of sales in the future.It is a self-defeating move in every way, and directlly hurts US interests.
>>65213340>burgers mic is barely above euro when it comes to production>is currently destroying and rebuilding entire mech force>is currently dumping all its broomsticks into seaYou be the judge
>>65214064yeah, it's not like there was ever a time in living memory when both European and American arms industries were large, robust, and competitivethe European defence industry has always been next to nonexistent and totally dependent on American R&D and should always remain that way
>>65214074>burgers mic is barely above euro when it comes to production"2x to 3x as many cruise missiles produced a year" and "10x as many long-range anti-air missiles produced a year" isn't "barely above", nigger
>>65213481Ja, and we should also reverse the Atomausstieg.
>>65213340>Trusting the US to defend you.Learn from your past mistakes.
>>65214058Many US weapons were delivered from stoockpilles already in position, apaprt from a few tanks the US insisted on downgrading first.These weapons and vehicles were listed at the price tehy were bought at, often decades ago.The actuall moonetary cost to the US defense budget was close to zero, unless you count more modern replacements that would have been acquired anyway.These deals now go to EU and SK MIC, though.>>65214086Youe latest decisions ensure that this status quo will now change. As stated, it is a self-defeating move from a US MIC PoV.
>>65214105>The actuall moonetary cost to the US defense budget was close to zero, unless you count more modern replacements that would have been acquired anywaythat's not how budgeting works, kiddoevery single Storm Shadow Ukraine launched was also purchased and stockpiled decades ago. same goes for all the other European munitions Ukraine was given. does this mean that there's no impact from using them up? that their replacements "would have been acquired anyway"?>These deals now go to EU and SK MIC, thoughas it should always have been>a self-defeating move from a US MIC PoVgreat, because what's best for US MIC is not in fact what's best for the allianceonly a Russian or Chinese would try wielding the spectre of reduced US MIC market share in order to further neuter European defence capability
>>65213957>Seething that obama derangement syndrome became an official psychological diagnosislol
>>65214127>that's not how budgeting worksit is exactly how the US counted vehicles given to Ukraine though.>every single Storm Shadow Ukraine launched was also purchased and stockpiled decades ago. same goes for all the other European munitionObviously. It's almost like this is the normal way to calculate a nominal currency value of these things.Just about the only time when actual money flowed directly fromo a national budget was when the Germans bought vehicles to backfill those given to Ukraine by other countries (that circle scheme they did). Maybe the Dutch or the Danes also bought back some Leo1s from arms dealers, I do not remember.>as it should always have beenUS MIC, US foreign and trade and defence policy for the past 7 decades has sabotaged European defence regularly and repeatedly. Clamoring for 'more' from people you have spent decades keeping down is at best hypocritical.>great, because a weaker US MIC is totally what we need to defeat ChinaAre you pretending to be retarded? Every single step in this whole affair weakens the US, and is therefore beneficial to China
>>65213343>that the cheeto is compromised by russiaWrong country, dumbass
>>65214199>it is exactly how the US counted vehicles given to Ukraine thoughnot reallythe decision to use book value or replacement cost was blatantly politically-motivatedthe actual cost to the taxpayer is replacement cost, and if you don't understand this, you're not qualified to have an opinion on this>this is the normal wayit's notalso,>nominal currencyand>valueare two different things>sabotagedit's amazing how powerful the US is, they could totally stop European lawmakers from allocating more funds to defence capabilities just like that>weaker US MICyou're thinking like a yuropoor, where it's literally impossible for countries to develop and build fighter jets unless they can get partners and customersthe US MIC doesn't need customers to get shit done
>>65214097>defaults on its deals>back bites is security guaranteer at every turn for Reddit gold>”Americans can’t be trusted”The effete euro never changes
>>65213481Sure, sure.
>>65214212>it's amazing how powerful the US is, they could totally stop European lawmakers from allocating more funds to defence capabilities just like thatSure thing.When do you open the Hormuz Strait?As they say, no amount of inheritance from great men is going to save US if their morons keep electing exclusively from the same pool of morons.
>>65214212>the actual cost to the taxpayer is replacement costFor some few, select items, yes. For vehicles and mst weaonns systems, not so much.If you want to look at how much things cost, might I suggest you look at the Hormuz Hijinx, which cosot teh US taxpayers more in missiles than the entire Ukraine war.The latter eliminated Russia as a global player, the former closed the strait of Hormuz. I know which one was money well spent, and which one was not.>nominal currency>valueThe value is debateable oof course, but we can just use TIV to compare them. II'm sure the journos in the pics above did no such thing and just copypasted from press releasesSome equivalent in Dollar, Euro or whatever currency you want is also helpful. Euro makes sense here because the majority of aid for Ukraine is handled in Euro.>sabotageThat is literallly what the US did to the British, Canadian and German aeronautical industries.>no export sales will make the US strongerOK, you're actually stupid.
>>65214228Pretty sure that section is sarcasm.
>>65214088>>65214074Friendly reminder reminder that after 4 years the USA is still in third place globally when it comes to munitions production after Rheinmetall and DPRK Incorporated.
>>65214284>RM>DPRKProducing small scale artillery shells for endless spam in Ukraine and we all have seen the pics of DPRK ammo
>>65214272I didn't know the US sent Margaret Thatcher to torpedo British industry and Naval yards.
>>65214287>endless spam in Ukraine Yeah that is kinda the point. The longer the better. For all practical purposes we can confidently say that the DPRK has won this war, better than they could have imagined. The only complaint i can imagine Pyongyang making about the Ukraine war is that it will eventually end, if i was Kim i'd want it to last forever. >we all have seen the pics of DPRK ammoYou are correct that some of the initial surge supply was from older stocks, Putin needed it now and Kim sold them old crap. However that was two years ago and they are supplying new ammo now although there is still some newer reserve stocks being thrown in there especially 152mm. They are at least 60% of Russian's munitions. For the next few years there will be a modest surge in the availability of decent quality DPRK 152mm shells (but not barrels) from recently produced stocks, this depends on how fast the Norks modernize their artillery since they are switching to 155mm. Recent history has shown they like to do it in big batches like 250 new 300mm MLRS all at once so it might come in large batches. A real indicator of Russian desperation is any significant use of 130mm, more so than 107mm MLRS significant 130mm artillery use is a clear indication of a unpleasant Asian man owning your balls.
>>65214284Also; Where the hell do you think Russia is getting all that 14.5mm and 23mm that they endlessly hose down their cities with in an ineffectual attempt to stop drones with poorly trained drunk retards as crews?When was the last time Russia could make a new KPV or ZSU? 40, 50 years ago?
>>65214345>ZSUMeant ZPU, aka ZPU-4s and their ilk.
>>65214055current events demonstrate otherwise
>>65214355This one incident in pic related, where Trump got Netenyahu to stop bombing Bierut, made Israelis start calling Netanyahu an American puppet, and this after America started an entire war solely on Israel's behalf.
>>65213498>Tomahawks do have several Temu equivalentsAre up-to-date Tomahawks ahead of Taurus/SCALP?
>>65214363Let's not forget that it's Trump, not Israel, that got the Lebanese government to speak out against Hezbollah.
>>65214038What are you going to do attack the U.S.? I really don't see the issue of Europe becoming more self-reliant.In what scenario does the U.S. suffer from having an ally that isn't strictly worse at everything than the U.S.?Back in the day, France, Britain, Germany, hell even fucking Canada had thriving to decent arms industries. It made the alliance better not worse.
>>65214363>you are fucking crazy fuck>btw, here a billion $
>>65214398It's about selling stuff and getting $$$ you fucking retard
>>65214406U.S. is also rearming. Lost exports can and should be absorbed directly. Not to mention the U.S. is cultivating other export markets in the Middle East, eastern Europe, and South America. And if you're just generally worried about the economy, the U.S. is becoming one of Europe's main energy supplier, dwarfing the $$$ lost in arms exports.Lockheed will be fine, it's probably good for everyone if there's more supply, variety, and competition in the western arms market.
>>65214398The what would be the reason to be allied to you, retard?
>>65214420To enhance defense and deterrence
>>65214417>can and should be absorbed directlySo even more debt to prop up a failing industry?
>>65214398>I really don't see the issue of Europe becoming more self-reliant.The issue is that US is not going to call the shots anymore. All of Europe hated the middle eastern wars, but rolled with it because US wanted it. Eus foreign policy always used to follow US' lead. That is over now.
>>65214461Europe didn't help in Iran so I don't really see what's changing
>>65214461>All of Europe hated the middle eastern warsHow old are you?
>>65214470US straight told rest of the NATO to fuck off in the Iran caseUS changed their mind like 3 times after that, first bashing NATO, then demanding minesweepers, then ranting why they didn't come in full force.If you want to use all the NATO assets, you plan this shit months before and give a good reason (or lobbying) for why they should help
>>65214477nta, but old enough to watch this shit on TVm everyone knew that it was just to get good boy points with US
>>65214485and "combat experience" + civil contracts for rebuilding Iraq (that was a bullshit and never come to fruition)
>>65214483Okay, what does that have to do with the U.S. not calling the shots. Europe is probably 5+ years out from getting where it wants to be just to deter Russia. It's multiple decades before it can even think about challenging U.S. force projection. Not to mention Europe will always have a collective action problem, considering it's 27 countries.
>>65214417>>65214398>>65214470>>65214485>>65214502Maybe you guys should keep those past relationships which took decades to build. You set them up in a way where the US was the main benefactor from every war and situation and it made you the most richest country in human history.But maybe Trump is right, you guys are getting screwed and you don't actually need allies anymore and they should take their investments to other countries because... ?
>>65214485Do you know who Tony Blair is?
>>65214504And maybe Europe shouldn't have slashed its military funding to the one in the 2000s and gotten addicted to Russian oil and gas, but here we are.
>>65214516What does that have to do with America's burning a century long relationship with Europe?Euros getting cucked by Russian gas was ultimately a EU/US strategic error. They partly believed if they could tie Russia to the EU then Putin wouldn't chimp out to damage that economic prosperity. Greed also played a part.
>>65214516>Europe shouldn't have slashed its military funding to the one in the 2000sThat's a main reason why US got shitload of cash for sealing weapons to EU, but now they refuse so instead just giving $ to US, they trying to make their own stuff.Yeah, europe got their military shit together, but that means they wont be shoping in US any longer
>>65214524I'm so sick of the "who me" bullshit in the souring of transatlantic relations. Europe was told as far back as Bush and Obama that the U.S. needed to pivot to Asia and Europr needed to spend more. Yet Europe did nothing. A partnership is a two way street, you can't sit on your hands and expect the other guy to pick up all the slack then asked shocked the partnership sours.spurs.And all this is an academic question. From technology, to the economy, to enegry, to defense, Europe is only growing more dependent on America by the day.
>>65213340Note the source of the headline is seething Germans.
>>65214534>Europr needed to spend moreThe 2008 recession, which greedy American bankers caused, and which some European countries still haven't recovered from, made that very difficult. And the US is speedrunning the same recession again with the AI bubble, and European economies still haven't learned not to tie their economies to America's.
>>65214534Yeah sure but don't think that the Trump administration is doing what they're doing because they think this. They are just fleecing everyone for their own benefit. Trying to ascribe any type of logical thinking to the Trump admin is retarded. He cut tariffs on the Swedes from 39 to 14% after he received a gold clock from them.And no, they are not becoming more dependent on America lol. They had multiple decade long trade deals that they solved after the Trump crisis with India and Australia alone. This is a worldwide awakening that Trump has enacted for no real reason and its going to have long term consequences for America
>>65214534>From technology, to the economy, to enegry, to defense, Europe is only growing more dependent on America by the day.That was true UNTIL the orange clown decided to say the quiet part (that Europe was just a bunch of vasals) out loud. It's going to take many more years (since it took half a century or more to develop to that point in the first place) but Europe is going to divest itself from the US as fast as it can. There's no undoing this damage.
>>65214537I was gonna start taunting you for "wah wah wah it's all America's faultn but at least you recognize the real heart of Europe's malaise, the $8 trillion per anum gap between America and Europe's economies that's arisen from '08. Even at a modest 2% of gdp, that's 160 billion per year that could be used towards military procurement.
>>65214540It's lazy and uninteresting to say that Trump has no strategy, especially when it's written down. The U.S. wants to re-focus on the Western Hemisphere; Rubio is working day and night on that. Top of mind there's Maduro, kicking the Chinese out of Panana, El-Mencho, and of course Maduro. With Europe it wants more or less what it's getting: tariffed trade, more energy exports, and higher Euro defense spending.>India and Australia Wow they are collectively 1/5 the GDP of the U.S.; you simply can't replace America's economic might.
>>65213340The perfidious Anglo genes run deep it seems.
>>65214577>focus on the Western HemisphereLol. Is Iran in Madrid???
>>65214586>Is Iran in MadridClose enough, bom away, what can Spain do?
>>65214577>you simply can't replace America's economic might.Oh, don't worry. We will keep seling you our shit, and you will pay your Trump Tip to help AIPAC finance Greater Israel.
>>65214764And buying our energy.
>>65213343You've been crying about it for 10 fucking years, and got nothing to stick. At most, he's a fuckheaded businessman, that should stop being such, trying to make a deal with a people that has proven, once and for all, to be savages not worth being considered European. I'm more than confident whatever nuclear ability they have is a mere joke. I didn't want us to get involved in this, not because I'm stupid enough to believe Russia's bullshit, but because I'm afraid of it turning into another fucking quagmire like Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam. We'll kick some ass, purposely have our hands tied for a few years, and when we get bored, we'll leave it and make a mess of it, not really improving much of it. And we were fresh out of Afghanistan, with a pandemic, economic crisis, and riots when they sent boots. This is a problem the European nations not only should be handling by themselves, but can actually handle, but they're too scared of any disruptions into their goals of unified socialist homogeneity with suicidal empathy.
>>65214554A lot of people still fail to realise how much we're living in the world that 2008 made.
>>65214586While anon stated a focus on Western Hemisphere, the current administration is really anti-Chinese. Going after Venezuela and Iran attacks China's oil suppliers. It also ironically, harms Russia, no matter what plebbitors say that somehow he's in bed with Putin. All these pariah states work together. Plebbitors always look at what he says, while ignoring anything he says to the contrary (which is a lot), while ignoring his actions.
>>65213343Snopes debunked this years ago.
>>65213983>>65214136SAMEFAG A M E FA GYou /pol/tards really need to fuck off.
>>65214534>Europe was told as far back asClinton, actually>>65214228>>65214272>pivotI accept your concession
>>65214516>Europe shouldn't have slashed its military fundingMy country had to destroy all it's balistic missile stockpile, reduce the tank fleet from 1500 to 180, destroy the Srela production line , and reduce the size army from 200k to 65k to be allowed into NATO. The US is the one that wanted us dissarmed
The desperate Trump loyalist damage control is truly painful to see here. I just hope you guys are legitimately disingenuous.
>>65215108ex-Soviet shitholes stay out of this discussion, YOU were the fucking enemy
>>65213481Just make your own army bases, mutt
>>65214287Artillery isn't the only thing which Norks provide russia. They provide their bootleg MLRS and bootleg Iskanders, which is an issue for ukies.
>>65215111If you have an argument make it, otherwise reddit's that way.
posting some likely alternatives for Germany#1 MdCN from MBDA Francethis is the alternative that most closely resembles the Tomahawk. They are working on a land-based variant (MdCT)
#2 Tayfun Block 4 from Roketsan (Turkey)not a cruise missile, but a hypersonic ballistic missile also useful for deep precision strike
#3 Fire Point FP-2 from Ukraineneither a cruise missile nor a ballistic missile, but clearly useful for deep precision strike against Russia as recent events have showed
>>65213340DDR infested idiots with on the record only 3 weeks of fight in them before logistical capitulation doing their passive damnedess to hamstring US geostrategy.
>>65215040NTA but so tired of the MAGAs defending geopolitics at this point. It’s embarrassing and our weapons programs are losing incredible amounts of confidence and adoption due to “5D chess” that has done nothing of value. If literally nothing had been done at a presidential level we’d be in an unquestionably better situation. Pax Americana was one of the best things about the US in the last decades and it was pissed away for… something?
>>65214058I hope they get short-changed like we did after WWII.
>>65213454What a shit graph.>Aid allocations per month. 3.5 total and 3.75.I assume this is in millions of USD, but the retard who made it, or linked it; failed to include that fairly important bit of information.>>65214105>These weapons and vehicles were listed at the price they were bought at, often decades ago.And? Even accounting for depreciation you got tens of millions for nothing. And training and humaitarian aid and the opportunity to look at stuff that wasn't constrained by Soviet shit and poverty and then innovate.Ukraine was always the technological brain of the USSR. No one could dispute that.
>>65215201Sorry. Billions. Of American dollars worth.Vodka and autocorrect; not a good combination.
>>65215193You don't understand. They need to own the libz. Social Media and The Joker movie have done tremendous damage to society.
>>65215183scale model of the land based version
>>65214506>Do you know who Tony Blair is?tbf he's pretty much the definition of perfidious anglo and was in bed with Bush in a way that really justified the Russian perspective that anglos are just the same old empire with a different centre
>>65213504THANK YOUIt’s funny how few people here seem to work in the DIB
>>65215205>scale model of the land based versionThat truck will need to be at least three times larger for that missile to fit.
>>65214534>"you need to ream, europoors!">cancel weapons deliveries to european customers>"fuck off, we need to contain china!">suck the dick of Xi's major ally and energy supplier in the regionI see
>>65215243>"fuck off, we don't need to rearm, stupid warmongering burgers">get invaded>"help help we need weapons why didn't you let us rearm it's all your fault I hate you REEEEEE"I see
>>65215248But they're rearming so what's the problem? You're holding a grudge and think kissing Putin's ass will let you get back at them?
>>65215253>they're rearmingit's been four years nowpost increased recruit headcountpost number of new operational combat brigadespost annual European anti-ballistic missile production
>>65215201The plan to ramp up the defense industrial base has been in the works since Covid showcased our supply chain weaknesses. Ukraine was just a great excuse to offload a bunch of shit, to justify building and developing new shit. US gets to say we sent aid, MIC gets the budget lines for new shit, everybody wins except the confused dummies being informed by inflammatory headlines.
>>65215257there a lot left to dobut European men under arms already outnumbers the russians so bringing their existing formations up to scratch takes priority bitching about anti-ballistic production numbers is just malicious retardation.Europe was buying US because the US wanted the Europeans to buy theirs and developed their own.the US dragged it's feet in allowing production to be set up in Europe you also leave out where the Europeans have pulled ahead of the USsuch as shell production, artillery production, drone production, fighting vehicle production ect.
>we want Europe to increase its defence budgetYes yesss, OK Lockheed get those->...resulting in a more independent European defense industry NO NO NO YOU IDIOTS WE MAKE MONEY THERE
>>65215276>Europe was buying US because the US wanted the Europeans to buy theirsWhat is this retardation?
>>65215276>there a lot left to dothat couldn't be done in 4 years?>just malicious retardationwhy? because you don't need that capability? really?>Europe was buying US because the US wanted the Europeans to buy theirs"[everything we did wrong] was done due to American mind control, [everything we did right] was done in spite of the American mind control"what broke the American mind control, may I ask? did the Europeans manage to assassinate Yuri in the White House? blow up the Psychic Dominator in Brussels?>such as shell production, artillery production, drone productionbecause they're mostly irrelevant155mm HE for example is only relevant because Ukraine's artillery corps is obsolete and needs obsolete ammoguided munitions do a far better job and Europe is producing very little of those>fighting vehicle productionor trying to catch up to where the US already is>>65215289>firehose of falsehood
>>65215300>>firehose of falsehoodThe US makes about ~$100 billion a year from arms sales to Europe, where's the falsehood?
>>65215305Deleting your post in embarrassment only highlights your mistakes
>>65215307>where's the falsehood?the stupid notion that the Americans somehow mind-controlled the Europeans not to spend on defence and to kill off their own defence industriesif you disagree, go ahead and post all the articles from Europeans concerned that the Americans were ordering their governments to disarmthere must be tens of thousands of them, if Europeans were really so concerned about defence that they spend the whole last 3 decades complaining about American-forced disarmament>>65215309there was one (1) typo so I deleted it because unlike you, I've been here since it was a courtesy to do that so the thread doesn't sage prematurely due to typos
>>65215305>guided munitions do a far better job and Europe is producing very little of thoseExcept for the fact that Rheinmetall is one of the largest producers of guided artillery rounds. Also you're completely wrong that a mass of dumb but accurate tubes firing dumb but accurate rounds en masse is obsolete. You smell like a coping retard.
>>65214217>bringing up reddit at randomYou are an utterly mindbroken election tourist that still hasn't learned to fit in.
>>65215314>the stupid notion that the Americans somehow mind-controlled the Europeans not to spend on defence and to kill off their own defence industriesliterally nothing to do with anything about a future stronger European defence industry being disadvantageous for the US economy, let's avoid the non-sequiturs
>155mm HE is obsoletemost factually incorrect statement on /k/ today
>>65215315>Rheinmetall is one of the largest producers of guided artillery roundsso post GUIDED artillery production, not common shellgo on>You smell like a coping retard>t. HIMARS had to save their ass and they still don't have a European artillery missile and their best guided artillery reaches out to only 35km at best>>65215319>literally nothing to do with>>65215276>Europe was buying US because the US wanted the Europeans to buy theirsI accept your concession
>>65215330I posted >>65215289 not>>65215276Two different posts, two different conversations, I understand it might be difficult for you to deal with multiple flows
>>65215334you claimed that>a future stronger European defence industry being disadvantageous for the US economymust automatically mean that they said>NO NO NO YOU IDIOTS WE MAKE MONEY THEREby the same logic, Europeans must be trying real hard to destroy American industry
>>65215291NATO plans out what country will be providing what capacityanti-ballistic missiles where considered this niche item because air superiority was assumed to mean you could just hunt down the launchers like the US did during Dessert stormthe US already has a anti-ballistic platform and was already contributing them to NATO as part of it's commitment when NATO sat down again and it was decided they'd need more anti-ballistic capability and part of that would be European the US lobbied for it's platform to be the one used.it made sense after all, it's a proven platform and using the same platform makes things easierso the European start buying (more) patriot batteriesbut production stays state side and can't keep upso in 2022 the Europeans start asking for production licenses so they can make their own interceptors there is ofc also the French/Spanish platform but that's having teething issues, one of the reasons why you'd go patriotthe US used it's role in NATO to make it the monopoly holder on western anti-ballistic missilesand now it's bitching that it's allies aren't making enough of them>>65215305>that couldn't be done in 4 years?the US can't even build a wall in 4 years but Europe should just double it's military in 4 years? >mind controlsee above >mostly irrelevantI remember distinctly the US bitching and moaning for years about Europeans not producing enough shells and artillerythe Europeans are now outproducing the US with a considerable margin and they became "irrelevant" nigger those shells still do a lot of the heavy lifting in Ukrainethe war has also shown that the US doctrine of "just high end shit all the way" doesn't workyou need mass behind it and the US can't produce that mass anymore >or trying to catch up to where the US already isthe US hasn't made any new Abrams or Bradley hulls in more than a decade all the US does is recycle it's old stockpile into modernized variants but sure you make some MRAPS
>>65215330>so post GUIDED artillery production, not common shellBONUS from Bofors and Nexter, SMArt 155 from Rheinmetall, KATANA round from KDNS France, Assegai family of 155mm extended range rounds from Rheinmetall, LU 320 round from Nexter with mid-flight trajectory correction and extended range, SPACIDO course-correcting fuze to name a few.
>>65215342>by the same logic, Europeans must be trying real hard to destroy American industrythat's what the current administration seems to be thinking, only for them to hurt US industry by turning industrial policy into a headline policy with a side serving of insider trading
>>65215350bodied that freak
>>65215342Let me lay out the logic clearly for youThe US benefits from the current export arrangement and has been a reliable guarantor of European defenceIf the US makes a point of low European spending endangering that guarantee, this rationally points towards encouraging domestic industrial development The US govt is essentially arguing "be less dependent on us" while its arms industry and NATO procurement norms simultaneously argue "but buy our stuff."
>>65213983"TDS" is literally picrel.
>>65215344>the US can't even build a wallwhataboutism won't save you>Europe should just double it's military in 4 years?I would settle for at least standing up a few new infantry brigades, but you can't even manage that>US lobbying = total mind controlbig if true>I remember distinctly the US bitching and moaning for years about Europeans not producing enougheverything in generaland the bitching and moaning has gone on for so long that said artillery is becoming obsoleteyou're trying to catch up to match previous-generation requirements, mein freund>nigger those shells still do a lot of the heavy lifting in Ukrainein the same way that FPV drones do; because there is a lack of guided munitions>the war has also shown that the US doctrine of "just high end shit all the way" doesn't workthe war showed that a handful of HIMARS batteries had a totally disproportionate impact compared to the hundreds of 155mm artillery given to Ukrainefailure to exploit the HIMARS advantage was due to lack of other high end shit>but sure you make some MRAPSforgot AMPVs and Strykers, didn't you?>>65215350yeah the existence of such programmes have been discussed here beforebut what are the production numbers?>>65215353>that's what the current administration seems to be thinkingaccording to you that's what Europeans must be thinking too, so you're just as bad>>65215359>this rationally points towards encouraging domestic industrial developmentwhich you claimed they didn't>while its arms industry and NATO procurement norms simultaneously argue "but buy our stuff."okay, and?you think European defence corporations aren't screaming even louder "buy our stuff, we generate local jobs"?and you think European MIC don't offer their weapons to the Americans as well?and are you really saying that Europeans are so spineless that they are helpless to resist the blandishments of American MIC sales offers? (yet are able to resist the same calls from their own countrymen)
>>65213492just sell them to anyone without us permission.ps, the underlying technology is american and was given to asml by the doe.
>>65215385>was given to asml by the doeyou're joking, right?
>>65215370>whataboutism won't save youno but it's important to point out that certain things can't happen all at once>at least standing up a few new infantry brigadeswhy would they need those? they already outnumber the russians by a good 20ish% making sure that all the men they already have are properly trained and equipped unlike the russians will do a lot more than raising a few new units >big if trueNATO planning is very true and the US being the biggest member having a lot of sway in them is also true >ou're trying to catch up to match previous-generation requirementsso tvth nvke, tanks are dead, artillery is dead, IFV's are dead, helicopters are dead, everything but your chosen metric is dead that's why the European need to stand up new infantry units because they certainly aren't dead and don't need artillery, tanks, IFV's, ect.>there is a lack of guided munitionsyes, the US lacks the guided munitions it needs to force the Iranian regime to submitbut I'm sure that lobbing tomahawks at basements is just what the doctor ordered when fighting the russians > handful of HIMARS batteries had a totally disproportionate impact compared to the hundreds of 155mm artillery given to Ukraine>I do not understand how flashy shit doesn't mean the most important shitcompare the casualties caused by HIMARS and 155>AMPVs and Strykersneither of those are tank hulls nor do they match the production number of new shit coming out of Europealso >155 is dead and last war>but Strykers are the future >according to youaccording to some other annonthe MiC is a relatively small part of US manufacturing, but it will lose export markets due to how the US is behaving.domestic consumption will probably make up for it tough, got to replenish all those munitions pivoted towards the ME because the US needs to pivot to Asia
>>65215257>post annual European anti-ballistic missile productionIt's expensive to design, US was selling it, where is the problem? Why is this now a problem?>>65215276>Europe was buying US because the US wanted the Europeans to buy theirs and developed their own.We could, it's just expensive, and European projects are usually a hedge mess thanks tto French and Germans who cannot agree on the specifications and who should produce the most parts.>>65215305>because they're mostly irrelevant>155mm HE for example is only relevant because Ukraine's artillery corps is obsolete and needs obsolete ammoThey are relevant. You can spend all day blasting a building with these drones, or you can send in a few artillery shells or a FAB. That's what allows the Russians to keep pushing forward. Both Ukrainian and Russian sides are fighting as they are because they cannot take control of the air, and drones have made everything near the front immediately visible to the enemy.
This is just another trolling thread.
>>65214524>Euros getting cucked by Russian gas was ultimately a EU/US strategic error. They partly believed if they could tie Russia to the EU then Putin wouldn't chimp out to damage that economic prosperity.That was solely and purely Merkel's retarded idea. Her braindead brand of realpolitik is wholly and uniquely at fault for it.
>>65215439>They partly believed if they could tie Russia to the EU then Putin wouldn't chimp out to damage that economic prosperityIt's not a wildly foolish idea, if the counter-party were rational then it would work.Treating Russia like a real country and Putin like a real leader was a mistake but if you want to blame people who did that...
>>65213340>The US fails so hard against Iran it pushes allies awayUtter state of the zog empire.
>>65214470You miss the point, with an independent EU, America would not have been able do it's stupid Iran war. A strong EU would force American influence out and limit their ability of action.
>>65215122And now the so-called shitholes are breaking pozzias final empire shit house. You know the same pozzia that has wanted to exterminate (you) since the October revolution. While (you) are either cowering in the corner, rambling something about "escalation management."Or outright elect a temu putin who can't stop simping for monke trying to save him. Because he has a huge man crush for his boyfriend
>>65215193Elections have consequences
>>65215451No she was a DDR whore which means that she was raised to be pro russian and it affected all of her politics.
>>65215439No it wasn't only Merkel. Merkel was a prominent proponent of it, but the doctrine was also heavily pushed by Americans (both GOP and Dem) in the early 90s through the early 2010s. In fact it's just an amalgamation of the American doctrine that muh free market muh globalization could magically fix corrupt shitholes and turn them into free nations, instead of the markets just adapting to the conditions present in the corrupt shitholes and becoming entangled with the regimes.
>>65213340No it's more bitchy office politics in NATO. NATO is a clutch of old women griping over tea.
>>65213470"We'll regroup next quarter. These things happen."
>>65215483>free nationsThose don't exist, the nations you're thinking of are different flavours of authhoritarianism.
>>65215498Thanks for your baby's first politically cynical take but I'll pick a hypocritical democracy over some authoritarian shithole even if that democracy offers only corrupt, illusory choice. You know why? Because even if democracies aren't free, they still offer vastly better rights and freedoms than some autocratic shithole.
>>65215504>cynicalIt's not cynicism, it's reality.>I'll pick a hypocritical democracy over some authoritarian shithole even if that democracy offers only corrupt, illusory choiceOk, but you still shouldn't listen to political propaganda peddled by the same politicians that will imprison you over saying the "wrong" things. That's what all this glorification of "free" nations and "democracy" is, it's a myth to hide the fact that you're not truly free. It's the same as politicians lauding how "rich" their citizens are in the midst of decades of declining wealth.
>>65215514Anon didn't even say anyone was a free nation, they just referred to it as the theoretical outcome of a certain approach to shitholes. You introduced something to the conversation not already present just so you could be mad about it.
>>65213343eh Russia isn't as bad as Israel imohttps://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/pentagon-raised-threat-israeli-spying-us-highest-level-sources-say-rcna348565
>>65215549That intelligence was promised to them 3000 years ago.
>>65214577Bringing up Maduro tends to send the redditors into a frothing rage.
>>65215203Are you retards still seething about the joker movie? That was 7 years ago.
Hahahahahahaha so american people ARE afraid of the Russians. I knew they were but they didn't want to admit it until now.
>>65213492>Expose the entirety of your IP under CRADA to US companies because you can't make any real progress
>>65215430It's another >something got blown up in Iran/Russia and the redditors are seething about itthread
>>65215453Cardboard ayatollah status?Navy status?Airforce status?Missile status?Steel plant status?Nuclear program status?Leadership status?You faggots promised us a sunken carrier group. What happened?
>>652156113 day SMO in the Hormussy status?
>>65215618Not going well for Iran
>>65214470Okay, so you're jsut being wilfully blind and retarded. Good job clearing that up.
>>65215621How so? Have they lost control of the strait? Are tankers once again passing through at a pre-war rate?
>>65215193>>65215203Why do people feel the need to reply to their own posts?
>>65215618Where's the sunken carrier group?>>65215627Might as well humor them. It's all they have.
>>65215390He is consciously misreading the fact that some parts of the latest lithgrapphy machinery are made in the US.Just like some parts are made in Germany, the Netherlands, Japan, SK, etc.And they are set up in Taiwan.They, essentially, represent our technlgical and industrial civillization.
>>65215611I never claimed any of that you inbred paki.
>>65214814holy meltdown
>>65215464That's complete cope. Again what is rhe EU gonna do? Attack America, it's main energy supplier?
>>65215498I will take property rights backed by rule of law ever day over dysfunctional shitpiles like pozzia and chinkistan. Where anything you have can be stolen the next day if the god-tzar-emperor decrees itYou fucking edgy idiot
>>65215625I don't see Iran's economy rebounding from supposedly making banks off fees or whatever. The US is basically strangling Iran at this point.
>>65215625How is Iran attacking other countries' ships harming the U.S., by increasing our market share over LNG and petroleum exports?
>>65215752Truth hurts dosen't it bitch?
>>65215625>lost control They can't even launch a fucking rowboat without getting blown away, what the fuck are you talking about?
>>65215679it's not far removed from the whole>Dutch lithography machine is the pinnacle of modern technology on which all mankind rests therefore Dutch are the bestest and smartest of humanitybullshit other anon was referencingwhich glory in any case belongs to the inventor of the spreadsheet programme
>>65215841It isn't, the US would not go to war with any nation near China today. How would they even get there? No planes over Europe, no passing through the Mediterranean. The US, without the EU, would be heavily restricted in its global actions. Believing otherwise is cope.
>>65215468>And now the so-called shitholes are breaking pozziahow lovely for youthat means we can withdraw NATO EFP from the Baltics then, yeah? you're big boys now and all, as you tell me
>>65215611Very impressive list and bravo, I personally won't shed a single tear for a theocratic totalitarian regime, yet, somehow US current administration still hasn't been capable to topple the iranian government which was the objective:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn48dwm818noTrump, and by extension US armed forces and its allies failed.MAGA has tried to memoryhole this and change the goalpost to ending the Hormuz Strait blockade which, to day, they have failed to achieve too.Furthermore, all you have cited has so far not been enough to stop the iranians with a new wave or drone and missile attacks hitting the gulf states who TRUSTED you.So what happened? You have thrown decades of blood, trillions of dollars and trust bought with american lives down the toilet because your elites have shown to be in terminal decline, so, what's even the point of you, as an american, having your collection of capped toy guns if you can't even ensure your ruling class behaves in a competent way? Does pic related sound like the sort of man you want to lead your military?You are supporting the fact your administration is so coward they no longer want to sell weapons, at what point of US history this became the right "american way" move?
>>65213343I wish it was true but in a way the friendly westerner/unfriendly westerner angle keeps the Russians confused as fuck. Their propaganda never hits properly anymore. In a twisted way this keeps the Russians from doing anything strategic that would change anything. It tricks the Vatniks. >America thinks we are strong axaxaxa-ACK! Fucking Hohols with HATO wunderwaffe! We are fighting all of HATO! But American President fear mighty Russian Bear we can win!If Trump is compromised its by globalists/Israeli operations and everything he does geopolitically ties in with that in a way. Trump has allowed Europe to grow stronger, which reinforces neoliberal ideals of power not residing in a single country. Unless Trump starts bombing Ukraine he is in a way doing the bidding of the shadow government.
>>65215426>US was selling itirrelevant; the yuropoors weren't buying as much as they pretend they are>where is the problem?the whole thread long yuropoors have been pretending that they were "forced" to buy American, when reality is that they weren't buying more than a token sum of ANYTHING, be it American or European, as proven by prewar defence budgets and what that budget was spent on>Why is this now a problem?it's the critical gap that still lets Russia have a say in the current conflict, because there aren't enough interceptors to shield Kyiv and Europe from Russian ballistic missiles>You can spend all day blasting a building with these drones, or you can send in a few artillery shellsbut to do that you'd have to come to 35km of the target155mm artillery is too short-ranged now as guided munitions proliferate, including drones
>>65215193I'll never understand this mentality of endlessly babysitting the retarded Euros while they fade into irrelevance. I'm going to break it down for you. "friendship" with the Europeans run by retards like Macron, Starmer, and Merz (all of whom are vastly less popular with their electorate than Trump is with his) is worthless. They've been told to shape up for decades and have done nothing. Worse, they bring nothing to the table of the NATO parnership anymore>large number of ABCTs, America not Europe >sizeable blue water fleet capable of sustained global ops, America, not Europe>Large SSN fleet that can go beyond its home waters, America not Europe >Making and fielding strategic bombers, America not Europe>self-sufficient in sealift, airlift and tanker capacity, America not Europe>massive network of ISR satellites, America not Europe>global footprint if ports and bases to sustain power projection, America not Europe>advanced standoff PGMs deployed in large numbers, America not Europe>an economy that actually grows, America not Europe>numerous tech giants that for better are worse run the digital economy, America not Europe>world leading space launch capacity, America not Europe>incredible energy resources, America not Europe>wide and deep capital markets, America not Europe>largest consumer market by far that can absorb global excess output, America not Europe
>>65215874>>65215874Are you being retarded or sarcastic? The U.S. wouldn't need to go anywhere near Europe to fight China, it has the West Coast and Arctic.
>>65214461>t. Syrian "refugee" in Paristan
>>65215909if the US loses european bases its capability to project power in Africa, Middle east and Asia diminishes a lot
>>65215878It's been three months. The IRGC have been global niggers for 5 decades. And because they're merely hiding under mountains communicating by hand delivered letter with a "leader" who hasn't been seen or heard from, you're declaring a premature defeat? What because the absolute best case scenario didn't emerge immediately. It's such a childish view of affairs and is most likely a bias because Trump offends whatever sensibilities you cling to.All the IRGC has is a willingness to murder civilians, its own, on merchant ships, or on its neighbors. Now for some reasons the Euros and Asians are happy to sit in the cuck chair and let this happen, meanwhile the U.S. got its ships out (and is on the down low patrolling a route via Oman to get ships thru the Strait). And Iran's strategy is completely retarded. It's alienated all its neighbors who are now working with Bessent to flush all the Iranian dark money out of their banks, while the USN strangles Iran with a blockade, and Israel bombs Iran's few remaining proxies with impunity. And all Iran has in response is terror bombing and driving up the price of and demand for America's main exports.
>>65215935Europe is 27+ countries depending on how you wanna count it. They all squabble with each other and are endlessly pulling the bloc in separate directions. Even if Trump is unpopular in specific countries and even if they kick him out, America can almost certainly maintain needed bases on a bilateral bases. Already you've seen a shift to eastern Euorpe like Bulgaria, Romania and Poland. If you're a small Euro country and have any doubts about France, the U.K., and Germany coming to your defense, then America comes and asks for a base, you take that deal.
>>65215948yeah but the guy I replied to was implying the US should completely withdraw out of europe
>>65215878>Trump, and by extension US armed forces and its allies failed.>allies NTA, but who are those?
>>65215850who gives a fuck anon, it's a third world theocratic dictatorship, they can take being strangled for a few years. They still have the power to fuck up trade in the strait because that's ungodly easy to do.
>>65215953That's also me, and nowhere did I say that. If the only thing "Europe" has to offer is basing, that's really nothing, since the U.S. can just deal on a one-to-one basis with countries it wants bases in.
>>65215964>we can just go bilateral that's the fun part, with the EU that isn't the option it used to be
>>65215959Their control is actually loosening, both from pressure from China to let their ships through and the USA patrolling an alternate route exiting the Omani coast. Trade is still diminished due to the threat of Iranian terrorism but importantly not halted.Besides the Strait is a non issue, either Iran puts on too much pressure and the rest of the world dogpiles on it because the economic costs of doing nothing are to great, or it can't/won't go for a complete blockade, in which case more supply reaches global commodities markets and the only means of influencing U.S. behavior (higher prices in an election year) slips. The problem for Iran is that it's not the 1980s, the main actor whose behavior they want to influence (America) simply isn't all that impacted by the Strait. So whatever pain they inflict on America, they're inflicting vastly more pain on their neighbors, "friends" and neutral countries.
>>65215975Yes it is. The EU has no defense power, it's a monetary and customs union, and some of the continents biggest countries, Norway and the U.K. aren't part of it.
>>65215986a) something not being an EU competency has never stopped themb) they can also engage in bilateral relations. but they have a fuck ton more leverage in Europe than the US has.c) bilateral deal between the US and European countries would still live or die by however the US is perceived in Europe.when Trump shits on Europe the Poles aren't hearing, "fuck Europe with the exception of Poland" they are hearing "fuck the group you Poles are a part of"
>>65215984>Israel and the US attack Iran>Iran responds by closing the stait>this means that the world will turn on Iran>because they will be able to do to Iran what the US wasn't able tothis the catch 22 of Iran for the maga faithfulthe world can't do what the US can do unless the US can't do it then the world can do it
>>65216022>because they will be able to do to Iran what the US wasn't able toWhat was the US unable to do?
>>65216007Okay, but you're assuming a) there's a political consensus to kick out American bases in Europe when there isn't, and b) the EU can punish countries that decide to host American bases when it can't. First in some places the EU simply has no jurisdiction, and second the very countries that host US bases hold veto power inside the EU. They're not going to punish themselves. And ultimately this is all academic. We're envisioning some future where Europe has the means and ability to stand up to America. In the here and now, the U.S. has technologic, economic, military, and energy dominance over the continent. And Europe has no choice but to take in the ass. America sells weapons to who it wants, puts troops where it wants, and goes to war when it wants. Maybe Europe will wake up and unfuck itself, but I don't see any real movement in that direction beyond token marginal gestures. The actual type of systemic reform needed just isn't being talked about, and I think you're a fool if you expect the current band of feckless bureaucrats holding power in Europe have any idea or ability on how to fix it. They themselves are the architects of the current predicament Europe finds itself.
>>65215986>what is the Common Foreign and Security Policy?All members defense policies are moderated by the foreign policy of the European Union.
>>65215940So you can't even deal with mountain bandits? Furthermore by your own admision you created a situation which is profitable to you at the expense of all the people qho put your trust in you, quick profit while letting others including those americans who come after you to deal with the fallout! Look at what you have been reduced to and wonder why the next time you try to impose your will everyone will throw the door on your face.
>>65216036In the alternative, Europe could just put on their big-boy pants and do big-boy stuff. If you start acting like a partner, and not a welfare recipient, you might actually start getting a say in what happens. Trump can do what he wants because Europe has lost the faith of a huge segment of the American population. And btw, its bi-partisan. Clinton, Bush and Obama all bitched at Europe for leaving its big boy pants in the closet.
>>65216033regime change for a startgetting rid of their nuclear programre-opening the strait of Hormuz
>>65216036You write a lot about how EU works for someone that clearly haven't got a clue.
>>65216045>So you can't even deal with mountain bandits?We dealt with them so severely that the leaders of a highly militarized society, who have been preparing for this moment for 40 years, have been reduced to living in caves in mountains.
>>65216048>regime change for a startLessor goal. >getting rid of their nuclear programDone. >re-opening the strait of HormuzNot a war goal.
>>65216036>you're assumingyes, it's a game of possible future assumptions making assumptions isn't that strange > the EU can punish countriesthey very much can>EU simply has no jurisdictionagain when has that stopped them?>very countries that host US bases hold veto power inside the EU>veto poweryou haven't kept up with how the EU work have you? >some future where Europe has the means and ability to stand up to Americathat future is already here, they have been standing up to Trump and Trump has been forced to give in by them
>>65216054Russians and Burgers are eerily similar.
>>65216022The Strait isn't closed though. Iran occasionally attacks civilian ships so they don't want to sail through because getting terrorized sucks. But Iran lets through some ships because China told them to and others the USN is protecting them. You may have noticed despite stalled negotiations, the price of oil is going down, and floating crude inventories in the Persian Gulf are declining because ships are transitting. The oil is getting out, but Iran remains blockaded.It's the second prong of my scenario. Iran can't control the Strait 100% kinetically thanks the the USN, and can't control it 100% politically because its biggest customers don't want their oil. Thus, their entire strategy or collapsing global commodities markets is failing. And it was a dumb strategy to begin with because America is the worlds number 1 oil and gas producer.
>>65216054the US is currently negotiating with the Iranian regime it failed to toppletalks where it has to negotiate about a nuclear program you claim it has already stopped and all because of something you claim never was a war goal in the first placeso the US fought a war with the intention of having to negotiate and not to back break Iran.that in and of it's self is an admission of American weaknessthe US didn't have to negotiate with Saddam or the Serbsthe first they removed and the second they dictated to
>>65216042Omg they're moderated! How scary. Show me where the EU says no U.S. bases for its members.
>>65216081They don't, yet. Because EU want a working relationship with the US, and are waiting to see if you will stop throwing fits constantly.
>>65216051Point out where I'm wrong. Happy to incorporate new information into my understanding. From my vantage point it's a lot of talk and very little action. Seems to me the biggest actual change in recent months is the U.S. becoming Europe's number 1 energy supplier.
>>65216095you claim that EU member countries have a blanket veto power, they don't
>>65216065By any empirical measures the U.S. is the dominant partner and will stay that way. Europe is talking a big game, but that's translated into barely increasing arms production. Major economies like Spain and Italy aren't increasing their spending. The U.K. is actively looking for places to cut military spending. Germany can't recruit soldiers or pass a budget (the main thing they're cheering is a bureaucratic change allowing debt to fund the military), France's budget is a disaster, they can barely keep their spend at pace with inflation. The only major country actually signing contracts and enacting tangible results is Poland.All your shit is just pointless "vibes" and press releases.
>>65216068>The Strait isn't closed though>But Iran lets through some shipsso Iran controls the straits and they have said they won't let any ship pass that doesn't pay themergo the strait is closed >the price of oil is going downbecause there was a glut of oil before the war started, we've been working trough that glut and the strategic reservesbut those aren't going to last for everalso if oil prices double and then go down a bit, they still doubled.>and floating crude inventories in the Persian Gulf are decliningthey are declining because no one is sailing their ships into the Gulf to take oil out againthat means that the Gulf that used to supply 1/5 of global oil isn't putting it's oil out there>Iran can't control the Strait 100% kineticallyit controls it enough that the USN wasn't feeling up to opening it up by forceor do you think that Trump is in those negotiations by choice? >And it was a dumb strategy to begin with because America is the worlds number 1 oil and gas producerit is also the worlds largest consumer of it, when prices go up they will go upor do you think that Trump is going to impose and export ban and prevent his billionaire buddies from making fat stacks of cash?
>>65216102I said veto power, not blanket veto power. If a country like Poland wants U.S. bases I don't see any realistic means for the E.U. to punish that member. It certainly hasn't happened yet.
>>65216106>By any empirical measures the U.S. is the dominant partner and will stay that wayand no one disputes thatbut the degree of it's dominance is shifting and not in it's advantage furthermore the US didn't need to force Europe to more or less tow the line now it's clear that even when it wants to it can't really force them to tow the line and will back of when the Europeans say they will bite back
>>65216118>EU simply has no jurisdiction>second the very countries that host US bases hold veto power inside the EUif the EU has no jurisdiction than there can't be a specific veto power in that matterhence you'd need a blanket veto power, that doesn't existthe EU can vote to remove voting rights and that includes any veto's, as it has with Orban's Hungary it also have the budgetary power to make it's displeasure very felt to any member statefor any non member state the block it their primary trading, security and much more partnerif the US where to upset the EU enough that they don't want US bases in Europe they can make that happen despite what the US might try bilaterally
>>65216110Wrong on all counts. Iran is letting oil bound to Asia out, this eases commodities prices. The USN has also opened a lane around Oman that has let about 500+ ships through, this eases commodities prices. Then there are just some Mavericks that just run it, this eases commodity prices. Then there are alternative pipelines in Saudi Arabia and the UAE that bypass the Strait, this eases commodities prices. You can cling to the IRGC byline that they have the Strait, they don't. The only country that can't use the Strait at all is Iran, courtesy of the USN.
>>65216052Oh really? Then why your president has been screaming about them to stop and return to normalcy?
>>65216134There's also the European Court of Justice that can levy stupendously large fines on states.
>>65216135You mean this?https://responsiblestatecraft.org/iran-war-oman/So now your president is threatening to murder people from yet another supposed ally because he is losing face to the world and his supporting elite?
>>65216122Explain with particularity how the balance is shifting. Is Europe becoming militarily stronger than America? No, they're talking about simply getting to a baseline they've neglected for decades. Is Europe becoming more energy independent of America? No, they're signing contracts with U.S. suppliers and the U.S. is now 60% of Europe's LNG. Are they becoming less economically dependent on the U.S.? No, European companies are heavily investing in the U.S. and European investors have never been more exposed to America. Are they using less American technology? No they're sending ever more money to U.S. tech giants for data services and A.I.Maybe some unpopular lame ducks are upset with Trump, but they can't fight gravity.
>>65216135>Iran is letting oil bound to Asia out,at less than a trickle you can go to marinetraffic and compare the current traffic to what it was before the war >The USN has also opened a lane around Omanthe USN didn't open it, it sailed in half way and then turned back because Iranian speedboats got to closethat shipping lane is also to shallow for mega tankers >let about 500+ ships throughthat's less than a week's worth of normal shipping, and again those are smaller, shallower draft ships>alternative pipelinesthat where already in operation before the war and can't conjure extra capacity out of thin air >You can cling to the IRGC byline that they have the Strait, they don'tif they haven't then why the fuck is Trump negotiating with them?
>>65216143well yes, but there would have to be a piece of Eu legislation that they'd be violating first
>>65216154No thishttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/06/05/us-secretly-guides-ships-strait-hormuz-iran-war-tankers/https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2026/06/04/iran-war-strait-hormuz-persian-gulf-oil-tanker-transit.htmlhttps://www.reuters.com/commentary/reuters-open-interest/more-oil-escapes-hormuz-keeping-traders-guessing-2026-06-04/https://fortune.com/2026/06/06/strait-of-hormuz-ship-traffic-iranian-drones-missiles-us-naval-overwatch/
>>65216134>>65216143>can>would>if>might>JUST Meanwhile on planet earth America does whatever the fuck it wants and Europe just rolls over.
>>65216155>Explain with particularity how the balance is shiftingthey have found that the moment you threaten to boycott US bond the US backs of in other words, it's becoming comfortable with using it's economic leverage against the US and it's member states are fine with it. in fact there's a good number of them that think the EU isn't going hard enough. >but we'd win in a wartrue, but having to even consider it shows just how badly the Trump admin has fucked upthat wasn't even a figment of a chinks fever dream a year and a bit ago
>>65216174are you posting this from the 51state Greenland, Canada or the Gaza riviera?
>>65216164The EU court doesn't work like common law. The court ensures that member states keep their obligations to the EU. That involves a whole lot of interpreting EU law. The court even has the power to annul active laws. The EU courts have the ability to define how EU laws are practically applied and carried out.
>>65216180What specifically are you talking about. What threatened boycott and what policy changed?
>>65216180>nooo you are threatening us if you're not taking a huge risk by buying our shitty bonds no thx
>>65216174>America does whatever the fuck Israel wantsfucking great, love it
>>65216036>The actual type of systemic reform needed just isn't being talked aboutwhat reform would it be?
>>65216192dude I've a master in law from a European university, I know how EU law and the ECJ works it can't invent things to quite the extend they can granted they have done some funky shit with their doctrine of the autonomous EU legal order but that's all here nor there without a case being brought to them for a violation of an EU law being a violated, like what happened with Hungary
Reminder, Germany is run by a socialist party right now. Same with spain. Both of them refused to allow US to use their US base for military operations as the NATO requires.
>>65216203Imho you need some type of actual sovereignty over the continent to properly martial its resources. That would require a real ceding of sovereignty to a centralized body beyond the largely monetary and regulatory power that's been surrendered.That means if it's decide to buy X-jet, or deploy troops to X-region, or invest in X-technology, even if France or Germany doesn't want to, that's what happens instead of a decade of stalling and politicking.
>>65216213>the NATO
>>65216213Germany's SDP and Greens and CDU are pro-Israel, they initially supported America and Israel's war against Iran until Iran shut Hormuz and they found out how unpopular such a war is among Germans and other Europeans,
>>65216080>>65216142>brown
>>65216229>if you recognize that the US is currently negotiating with Iran you are brownthe Iran negotiations that aren't going on because Iran doesn't hold any cards but are serious enough that Trump did ask bibi to not escalate in Lebanon shit next you're going to call me a nigger when I point out that the US has thrown in the towel on getting a Ukraine peace deal
>>65216227Communism never pays
>>65215878Regime change has always been a lessor objective. A neat bonus that would be nice to have but not essential.
>>65216237Your framing of the iran negotiations, and generally what's going on, is how I know you're brown.
>>65216244>reality is browngrim now how would you frame the talks? Trump the merciful graciously extending a life line to the IRGC?
>>65215344I asked what the retardation was (rhetorically). I did not ask for more of it.
>>65216237>negotiating with Iran means tbe U.S. is losingI'll never get this mentality. Wouldn't it equally be a sign of Iranian weakness because they're also talking. If the Strait was such a Trump card (ba dum tiss) why would they bother coming to the table?
>>65216239so what was the major objective(s) at the start of the war then?
>>65215921>Are you being retarded or sarcastic? The U.S. wouldn't need to go anywhere near Europe to fight China, it has the West Coast and Arctic.Who said anything about Europe stopping a war with China? The US would not go to war with a nation near to China today, and using that same logic it would not do so with Europe. For this reason the US would have not launched its war against Iran.
>>65216252I would frame them as a continuation of the pre-war talks. During those talks, the Iranian position was that they would agree to nothing that we couldn't take without military force. Hence, we used military force. Now talks continue to find a lasting solution.
>>65216258>so what was the major objective(s) at the start of the war then?If you don't know, why are you debating the subject?
>>65216260>I would frame them as a continuation of the pre-war talks.Fucking kek, you can't be serious.You must be a chink or an iranian trying to make Americans look pathetic and mind-broken.
>>65216258As stated by the admin>destroy their defenae industrial baseDone>sink their navyDone>degrade their proxy network Hamas is bottled up in Gaza, Hezbollah is getting as raped, and the Houthis are sitting on the sidelines because the checks ain't clearing no more.>end their nuclear programBy any experts, kinetic strikes have set them back at least 5-10 years, negotiations for a permanent end ongoing
>>65215483>the doctrine was also heavily pushed by Americans (both GOP and Dem) in the early 90s through the early 2010s.May I see it?Genuine ask.
>>65216268What country are you from?
>>65216276Ireland.
>>65216257because the US isn't in the habit of ending wars by negotiationsthe ones it ends that way like Vietnam and Afghanistan are commonly seen as having been "lost" I don't think that the US has "lost" or is "losing" but that they under estimated Iran and bit of more than they can chew leading to negotiations because the cost of bringing this war to it's logical conclusion (Iran bombed back to the stone age) would weaken the US to much and impose to great a cost on it's regional allies >Wouldn't it equally be a sign of Iranian weakness because they're also talkingno, because they where and are the weaker party in analogy, the russians having to hold peace talks with the Ukrainians isn't the Ukrainians being weak >why would they bother coming to the tablebecause the want things from the US such as sanctions relief that they think they can get by holding the strait and Gulf states hostage
>>65216268>You must be a chink or an iranian trying to make Americans look pathetic and mind-broken.We launched a war and raped a country into the ground because they dared us to. Thats a level of based previously thought unobtainable.
>>65216278Ah, the palest of the browns.
>>65216279>because the US isn't in the habit of ending wars by negotiationsHow are you this retarded?
>>65216279Considering the negotiations are over things like nukes and proxy funding, yes, its an indicator of a cowed Iran. >muh straight Literally no one cares. Oil is a $79 per barrel and trending towards the 60's. But for Iran, not being able to get forex is a huge problem.
>>65216298>>>/pol/
>>65216298>brown.
>>65216300>straightFound the jeet. Israel really sends their worst.
>>65216279The U.S. position was always negotiations on nuclear issues, Iran has always refused (pre-war Iran's position was we don't even talk about nuclear without full sanctions relief as pre-conditon). Now they're talking, after getting fucked in the ass. So now they're prepared to concede more (maybe) in additon to all the destruction caused by the bombing and blockade.
>>65216279This is the Trumpian US. Negotiation is the primary means of acheiving outcomes. The use of military force is an aspect of negotiation, but its not the final goal or the main means of achieving outcomes.
>>65216308>The U.S. position was always negotiations on nuclear issues, Iran has always refusedFalse and you are retarded.
>>65216263I have as good a guess at what they where as anyone. I'm asking you what you think they wherebecause if regime change isn't one of them it's kind of odd that they start it off by blowing up a room full of the regimes senior leaders and then hit the elective council being held to appoint their successors >>65216269>destroy their industry it would appear that their industry already produced enough for it's destruction to not be an immediate issue US damage assessments have also admitted that their underground facilities probably weren't all that impacted >sink the navy the US sank Irans major surface combatants but can't deal with the small boats that Iran is usingit's great that their drone carrier is gone, but they don't need it to fuck with the strait>degrade their proxy network that was already done before the war now not attacking those proxies has become a condition for the talksif anything the war has reduced Israel's ability to go after the proxies>end their nuclear programthose kinetic strikes during last year's 12 day war had supposedly done that already if there's a need to start a second war that would hint that kinetic strikes weren't nearly as effective as claimed back then and I'd see no reason why claims about this years strikes would be any more trustworthy
>>65216307$79 per barrel and dropping fast. Cope however you must, brownoid.
>>65216316Gooooood mornings saaaaaarrr
>>65216313>because if regime change isn't one of them it's kind of odd that they start it off by blowing up a room full of the regimes senior leaders and then hit the elective council being held to appoint their successorsIf the people you're negotiating with wont negotiate, kill them. Negotiate with the new guys. If the new guys wont negotiate either, rinse and repeat.
>>65216318>oil price got him spiraling
>>65216305>brownbut enough about muttmerica
>>65215863Do they even have any dingys left?
>>65216327Not even worth using this desu, they don't properly count and even if they did they class arabs and north africans as white.
>>65216300>>65216308>>65216311Iran has also put sanctions relief, war reparations, and the US closing bases in the Gulf on the table frankly we can't know how the negotiations are going as outsidersbut that they are happening at all instead of the US just resuming military actions hints that the first round of fighting didn't go as well as the US thought it would and that the US having changes it's assumptions doesn't thing that a second round of fighting would solve the issueand again this THE global power having talks with a country that shouldn't be in a position to refuse the US never mind make it's own demands
>>65215878We're the ones blockading it, dumbass. Iran doesn't have any ships for it anymore.
>>65216324Only thing spiraling is America after this prolonged humiliation.
>>65216313>can't deal with small boats Lol wut? They've hellfired multiple teeny boats
>>65216341>We are blockading a blockade Very good, America will win in two more week.
>>65216340US was negotiating before the war. Use of force was to overcome issues that came up in negotiations. Use of force is not itself a solution. >Iran is asking for...Who cares.
>>65216343Post hands.
>>65216321>If the people you're negotiating with wont negotiatethose are the people that negotiated the Obama deal, they didn't end that deal the US didergo on can assume they'd negotiate again>Negotiate with the new guys. If the new guys wont negotiate either, rinse and repeat.the problem with this is that you can't know if the new guys will be more willing to negotiate>so blow them up againand that before long you'll be so far down the totem pole that there's no one left that can negotiate for them
>>65213438I've been surprised by some of the missile development in Europe recently. Now we just need our own real ASAT and high altitude interceptors. Also proper AShM.
>>65216344>we hellfired a couple, there's dozens if not hundreds moregreat when are those boats going to stop fucking with shipping? >>65216349if the war was meant to shift Iran in the negotiations and those negotiations still aren't going anywhere, what did the war achieve?if anything the hit on the ayatollah and other leadership made it a matter of life or death for the regime>who cares the US negotiating team
>>65216360The U.S. has opened a lane in Oman. If you've been following there have been exchanges of fire as the Iranians attempt to hit ships using it. The U.S. is blowing them up.
>>65216377>The U.S. has opened a lane in Omanso the USN can't open up the shipping lanes used by the tankers because Iran still has small boatsthe Oman lane isn't deep enough for tankers and it's tankers that Iran wants to keep control over
>>65216391The Omani lane is open to tankers. Please shut up on things you don't know about.
>>65216398>The Omani lane is open to tankers. Oh? May we see it? And the 50+ tankers passing it daily that are required to even remotely qualify it as "open"?
>>65216341So merchant traffic from the GUlf states is free to pass the straits and close to a hudnred emrchant ships and tnakers are passing through the strait unhindered again every day now?May we see it?PS: Here's your actual non-copium answer: https://www.ishormuzopenyet.com/
>>65216412See here asshole:>>65216165Plus another for good measurehttps://www.markets.com/news/hormuz-strait-energy-market-shift-6134-en
>>65216349>US was negotiating before the war. Use of force was to overcome issues that came up in negotiations. Use of force is not itself a solution. Gigacope. Use of force was blatantly aimed at achieving full-blown regime change.>Who cares.Anyone who actually cares about a negotiated outcome. Which will necessarily mean significant concessions to Iran, given their superior strategic position and the US' demonstrated inability to shift it by military means.
>>65216430>https://www.markets.com/news/hormuz-strait-energy-market-shift-6134-en>has fallen from 184 million barrels on March 22nd to approximately 148 million barrels this weekso it took 3 weeks to move as much oil as normally moves trough the strait in just two days much wow great open
>>65216443>literal reddit responseHey, dipshit, the whole point of closing the Strait from Iran's perspective was to moonshot oil and get the U.S. to back off. That isn't working. Oil is at 90 dollars per barrel. About what it is when a Democrat is president. It's not doing anything but increasing U.S. market share and breaking the OPEC cartel: good things for America. Thus, from Iran's perspective that strategy is failing.
>>65216455>>65216455>Hey, dipshit, the whole point of closing the Strait from Iran's perspective was to moonshot oil and get the U.S. to back offThen why has America backed off?
>>65216490It hasn't. You may have noticed Iran was bombed into oblivion, its proxies are being hunted down, and is suffering a crippling blockade.
>>65216455first of can you at least admit that yes, the strait is in all effects still closedgetting less than 1/10 normal traffic isn't open secondly as has been pointed our repeatedlythere was a global oil glut before the war began, the US has lifted sanctions on floating russian and Iranian oil plus countries are selling of their strategic reserves those measure will delay when oil prices will really start to hike up but it can't do so for ever.>increasing US market sharethanks for admitting that you are wrongthe US market share is increasing because the market is shrinkingwhat does economic 101 teach us? when supply goes down, prices go up >Thus, from Iran's perspective that strategy is failingif you limit yourself to a short time framebut the US and Israel blew up the bulk of Iran's leadership. for the IRGC this isn't about adjusting the balance of power a bit anymore, it's existential and they will be more than happy to keep it up until the US gives in or the US forces them
>>65216500>It hasn't.Try to make your lies less obvious.
>>65215514>That's what all this glorification of "free" nations and "democracy" is, it's a myth to hide the fact that you're not truly free>you're not truly freeNTA but nobody is talking about being "truly free" which is such a vague term that you could always prove it isn't true by making up your own definition for what level of freedom counts as "true".I suppose a man alone in a desert is free but as soon as you introduce another person into the environment and resources that let them both survive, some compromise on freedom is necessary for shared survival.
>>65216054Funny ain't it. For how much they seethe about the airstrikes last year, they sure like pretending they were ineffective.
>>65215878It's all worth it if people stop talking about the Epstein files for just a little longer.
>>65216313>but can't deal with the small boats that Iran is usingDo they need to? All Iran has done with them is hid in little jetties along the coast. They don't deploy mines with them. They have deployed drones from them less than a handful of times. And everytime they go out to engage in all action they get mulched by Apaches and shit.Why should the US dedicate significant resources towards tracking down each and every last outboard motor when they aren't even being utilized? What strategic sense does that make? Besides, if they did go shove a hellfire up every one of them you'd just be complaining that big ol' bad America is being a meanie bully to the poor fishermen.
>>65216500>W-we beaten them, ignore I gave you links which show US has had to resort to use furtive convoys to scurry away some oil and we fucked up everyone including our own allies and our own population. You sound like a vatnik, you already started to call others names, you try to portray your own millionaires trying to capitalize on your idol military fuck up and you insist you won despite only achieving to screw over literally most of the population even your own. And here we are, your military used as mafia enforcers and still somehow failing because you don't understand for people like the iranians systems are nothing to entrenched beliefs and the will to push forward, all I see in you is Afghanistan 2.0 created by the same conceptual mistakes, only this time you can't even say you didn't know, nay in fact, your own people say you were foolishly dragged, well done, now your armed forces have been lead by morons to shoot yourselves in the leg.
>>65216808So again, why not even your own ship companies want to go around? Maybe those drone teams aren't as harmless? Let me guess, "they didn't need that ship lane anyway". Maybe there is more to drone warfare than all your overcosted mic can attest to? But come, let us see if you can fall at moscovite level of copium.
>>65216848I skimmed your post and see you asking questions instead of answering mine. Are your positions so fragile so can't even stand by them?
>>65216808>Do they need toif they want to re-open the strait with force they will have to>They don't deploy mines with themI've seen reports of them being used to mine the strait. but if you've got a source to the contrary I'm happy to be proven wrong>And everytime they go out to engage in all action they get mulched by Apaches and shit.that doesn't surprise anyone desuthey are meant to be used against civilian shipping allowing the IRGC to fuck with the strait >What strategic sense does that makeif you want to open the strait open by force and/or fuck with Iran's ability to fuck with the strait then the US would have to>you'd just be complaining that big ol' bad America is being a meanie bully to the poor fishermenyou mistake me for a brown or some fucking leftyI want Trump to fuck over the IRGC so bad, but to do so you have to pay your enemy the respect they deserve unless you want to plow yourself into a quagmire the annon I was responding to thinks that if he mocks his enemy enough that they will just go awayan underlying current in culture that's the same as the one that got the russians stuck in Ukraine
>>65216983You don't understand the situtation as well as you think you do. The issue is not small boats, for commerical shipping its mines (or at least the threat of them). And what is preventing the sweeping/clearing of these (theoretical) mines is shorebased fires.>if they want to re-open the strait with force they will have toLot of assumptions inherit in that. Not interested in arguing from your frame.>I've seen reports of them being used to mine the straitShow them>but if you've got a source to the contrary I'm happy to be proven wrongProving a negative is not something I am willing to attempt, nor is it a reasonable ask.>they are meant to be used against civilian shippingShow it>if you want to open the strait open by force and/or fuck with Iran's ability to fuck with the strait then the US would have toLot of assumptions inherit in that. Not interested in arguing from your frame.>you mistake me for a brown or some fucking lefty>I want Trump to fuck over the IRGC so bad,Keep your /pol/ shit on /pol/, I don't give a fuck about it and I'm not going to touch it.
>>65217052>The issue is not small boats, for commerical shipping its minesand those small boats can be used to deploy them>And what is preventing the sweeping/clearing of these (theoretical) mines is shorebased fires.and small boats requiring escorts for the mine sweepers, an Avenger class isn't much better armed than those speed boats and rotary mine sweeping exposes the helicopter shore based fires are ofc jet another problem you'd have to deal with if you'd want to force the strait open. but we where discussing the boats.>Show themhttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-mine-boats-strait-of-hormuz-how-they-work-b2983443.html>Show itoldy but goldy https://www.dw.com/en/tanker-attacks-in-the-gulf-evidence-or-warmongering/a-49295596>Keep your /pol/ shit on /pol/>you'd just be complaining that big ol' bad America is being a meanie bully to the poor fishermenyou started itI'm here to discus various military matters you are here to fling mud and talk about "frames" because an inconvenient truth is best framed as bigoted opinion
>>65216349>who cares Anyone who was hoping for oil futures to be below $100 before the midterms, and the global flow of ammonium nitrate for fertilizer. Next, you're gonna tell me that Cuba poses an existential threat to the American mainland.
>>65216831MIGAts are spiritually vatnik.
>>65215867The poorly added Saddam always gets me
>>65217083You are doubling down on your idiocy instead of taking the 30 seconds to actually consider what is being presented to you. I got three lines and saw at least 2 major issues that are due to massive misplaced assumptions. I have no more time for you, stay ignorant and irrelevant.
>>65217593so you've seen I've got sources that back up my claimsyou can't argue against themso instead of stating those two major issues you pretend like you are so much better than me and other annon and fuck off like a pretentious little cunt to try and hide with your tail between your legs how you haven't got an argument
>he madkwab
>Europeans didn't solve every MIC issues in a few years, despite a fuck ton of progress in pretty much all areas>hurr-durr you're slow and useless>meanwhile US MIC is eating rocks in pretty much all areas: >- where F-47>- where FA-XX>- where longer range AA missiles>- cruise missile production is low>- AD interceptor missile production is literally in the shitter>- who knows what the fuck is happening to ground vehicles, let's do JLTV, no let's cancel it and make yet another retatded shitbox without troop protection>- artillery projects? lol, lmao>- replacements for Apache and Cobra? nah>- drones? first grenade drop tested out in 2025 kek>- I won't even mention the fleet situation because it's too sad
>>65216036>to kick out American bases in EuropeMy brown friend, the US itself is already doing that through its retardation policies and behavior. US is removing soldiers from places where it protects European soil and just tries to use bases for logistic reasons to supports its retarded sandnigger wars of agression, which some of the existing European countries aren't a fan of, such as Spain and all that.
>>65216106>Major economies like Spainlol, lmao, get this burger some US bread, he's struggling due to a lack of sugar
>>65216174>America does whatever the fuck it wantsAh, so the US actually wanted to suck Israel dick and lose to Iran? Lol, lmao
>>65218346Don't forget the continued inability to build a boat with any particular urgency, to the point it's risking compromising the security of an ally that actually is trying to significantly expand capabilities to be more responsible for their own region.
>>65216279>the ones it ends that way like Vietnam and Afghanistan are commonly seen as having been "lost"Because they lost. If you go into an offensive war with maximalist goals and then have to run away after "successful negotiations", then you've lost. No long-term goals were reached, resources were wasted. This would be like russia stopping the war in Ukraine after "successful negotiations", trying to paint that as a win, despite going in years ago trying to annex the country.
>>65216308Why do you lie like a russian? There were never any nukes being made and US already had a deal with Iran under Obama-the-Negro. It was the US which showed its unreliability by throwing the deal away.
>>65216341>We're the ones blockading it>it is I who chose to not have sex with a girl, it's not like she denied meincel cope 101
>>65216437>GigacopeIt's worse than cope, it's russia-tier attempt at rewriting history by lying about something which was openly said not even so long ago. They want to drown out reality with their SEO spam tier shit as to re-frame the narrative.
>>65218356That's the fleet part which shouldn't even be mentioned. It's a multi-layered problem which nobody even wants to acknowledge. Decades of sucking dick and not investing into industrial shit, dry docks and human capital to even have people to work on those things. Pathological retardation in procurement and project management. With a Microsoft-tier inability to see a project actually through and changing direction at the first issue.
>>65218355How did they lose Ackmet?
>>65218371Not being able to achieve goals is losing, Martinez. You can lie all you want, like a russian faggot, but we've all see the regime change goals of day one.
>>65218346>despite a fuck ton of progressnotice the deafening silence in the above thread when asked for actual numbers>meanwhile USyou don't get to criticise the top seed when you're barely catching up to where they were decades ago
>>65218374What specific numbers are you interested in? Numbers Europe doing 7x growth in artillery shell production in just 3 years? Or like Rheinmetall, a single company, overtaking production of the US as a whole in terms of artillery shell production?Or maybe Diehl Defence (IRIS-T AA) doing a 10x increase in production since 2021? Or maybe missile production more than doubling and continuing to grow at a rapid pace? Shit, even the French increased artillery system production by 6x. While we're on the French, they've also increased production of fighter jets more than 2x. Eurofighter production is also in the process of increasing up to 3x.
>>65218388Please understand, MIGAts are too busy gorging themselves on Russo-Israeli semen and child sacrifices to be disturbed.
>>65218388>in terms of artillery shell productionbut not the critical weapons, guided missiles, which is one of the reasons why Kyiv is still being bombarded by ballistic missiles and Zelensky last week said Ukraine is totally dependent on the Patriot missile>IRIS-T AA) doing a 10x increase in production since 2021?IRIS won't intercept ballistic missiles>missile production more than doublingdouble of jack shit is still shitmeanwhile the US is tripling cruise missile and anti-air missile production, which was already at least double of all of Europe put together. can you do the math on that?>they've also increased production of fighter jetsmainly to replace legacy aircraft and meet export orders. the air forces themselves are not growing by that much.although they ARE growing. it's nice to see that some (not all) European air forces are adding 1 or 2 extra fighter squadrons. credit where it's due.but still, these are the typical flashy big-bucks items that make hundreds of jobs and look nice on parades. it's the ordnance that those jets will launch that matters. and procurement of those is still very low, despite a hundred cruise missiles costing less than a flight of Eurofighters. which is why European defence spending is still largely performative.
>>65218403>meanwhile the US is tripling aid to Israelfixed
>>65218406if it triples the number of mudslimes eliminated, so much the better
>>65215350>>so post GUIDED artillery production, not common shellThe "american" Excalibur shell is made in Sweden. Sweden also made the Strix 120 mm self guided anti tank mortar shell which was never exported. Excalibur is obsolescent as the PGK fuze gives almost the same capability for far less cost.
>>65218403>but not the critical weapons>artillery shells aren't critical during a full on land warno shells and drones don't matter at all in this warit's all about guided missiles, that's why russia that has more of them has been able to just bully the Ukrainians who can't do anything at all ever and again the US as part of the NATO framework promised that it would bring those munitions as a part of it's NATO commitment, just like say mid air refueling that Europe doesn't have enough domestic production is a direct result of the US promising that they would have their backs them not having enough is only a problem if the US does in fact not have their back despite promising they would it's also not a 4 year problem but a 1 year problemthe Europeans have had 1 year of them knowing that the US would in fact not have their back and so they can't bank on US production like the US promised them they couldhow the fuck are they supposed to fix that in 1 year? when you are going to a pick nick and your buddy promised he's bring deserts and while driving to the pick nick he calls and tells you that, despite several prior assurances that he'd bring deserts, he won't be bringing deserts and it's now all your fault that you only brought some shitty cake you bought at a gas station because that's all you could get on the way over
You amerimutts must understand that a lot of people in Europe hate your guts. You are fat, dumb, stupid, ugly, swarthy, obnoxious, ignorant and, and this is the worst, you are over here where you dont belong. One of the ways we euros can fuck with you is to dismantle the local military. That way they cant be sent abroad to fight in one of the american forever wars because they do not exist.Also, 155 mm artillery is indeed obsolescent. Lighter artillery, starting from 127 mm and down, is far better for just flinging dumb shells to 30 km range, and heavier artillery, as in 240-280 mm and up, is far better for firing long range pgk shells because they can fire saboted shells at high muzzle velocity with a far better aerodynamic shape than conventional shells so they can go to 100+ km. And before you go off on some bullshit about the magik gun in the zumwalt not working, you should know that the USN did a lot of research into this 60-70 years ago until everything got forgotten because the guidance tech of that era did not exist. Oh btw, if you are a first year mech engineering student with knowledge of artillery history you will easily understand how the zumwalt gun was a scam. I should start a quality thread where I roast the US DoD because this was not incompetence it was crime.
>>65215847>I will take property rights backed by rule of law ever day over dysfunctional shitpiles like pozzia and chinkistan. Where anything you have can be stolen the next day if the god-tzar-emperor decrees itAh about that, tells us about "asset forfeiture laws" mr Muttman. In America, you can get robbed by the government, and it is completely legal because War on Drugs and Terra. And whats worse, these laws have been exported to Europe. Everything bad here comes from America.
>>65216455>That isn't working. Oil is at 90 dollars per barrel.Once the global oil reservers run out oil will go to 200+ which is why Iran is not interested in negotiating. Trump has this idea that he can use the oil reserves to smooth things out while he tries to bluster Iran into submission. The real shitfest will not start in America but in Europe. Britain will be the first euro state to implode and then have an IMF bailout with brutal austerity conditions. If you are an American looking for a bongslave or two and perhaps also a bongwench for your bed I would suggest you to start advertise now so you can source ones with good teeth. I also recommend that you use a flat leather belt as a lash as their skin breaks easily.
>>65218456Who cares what Europe thinks? They're castrated & nearly helpless from relying on American funds & equipment, but you won't acknowledge any of the above posts going against your narrative.
>>65218466Saar...you do realize that Europe doesn't get it's oil from the strait?
>>65218365>redditard drops the maskpost guns
what blew up in Iran now?
>>65218716Another Trump's ceasefire
>>65218449>it's all about guided missilesYes>that's why russia that has more of them has been able to just bully the Ukrainians who can't do anything at allYesthe only way Ukraine has survived is because they received NATO missiles and Russia doesn't have enough missiles>the Europeans have had 1 yearthey had 7 years after Crimea, and decades of their own generals telling them they didn't have enoughanyone who's been on /k/ for a decade knows thisSeethe and cope
>>65218449p.s.>that Europe doesn't have enough domestic production is a direct result of the US promising that they would have their backsand this was pointed out also over and over and over again for decades: that Europeans cannot count on the US arsenal being free for their use so they don't have to buy missiles to stockpile for themselvesno doubt the sudden withdrawal of American support is not good and contributes to the problemhowever, it had ALWAYS been stressed that the American safety net is NOT ASSURED and the Europeans need to maintain their own weapons stockpilesEurope didn't listennot to the Americans, not to their own generalsfor decades they spent below the 2% guideline, hiding behind the fact that it was non-binding, hiding behind US, French and British spending, reasoning that mummy would come and bail them outthis is the resultwhat you are seeing now is every prediction of disastrous European defence policy of the last 2 decades (if not 3) coming true
>>65218741>it's all about guided missilesat the start of the war Ukraine didn't have any guided missiles provided to them by the USbut they where non the less able to beat back the russiansthe missiles you claim Ukraine needs to survive, the patriots, ATCAMS, have at times been so low in supply that Ukraine had to not intercept incoming missiles or pass up very juicy targets because they had to husband the few they still hadand guess what, they just like when they had none at all, they didn't foldthis disproves categorically your claim that it's all about the guided missiles guided munitions are a part of the mix of materiel needed to fight a war if you have none it will suck but you can still fight on if you have a ton of them but nothing else, you still can't win>hey had 7 years after Crimeaher you go jumping dates, it's 4 years, it's 7 years, it's decades and in a post or two you'll be all the way back to the birth of Christ>that Europeans cannot count on the US arsenal being free for their use>for decades they spent below the 2% guidelinehere you are intentionally conflating these two different things, spending targets and task distribution within NATOwhy? because you know that I'm right about capacity distribution within NATO so you've got to find an other angle of attackthe US volunteered to provide those capacities to NATO, why?because the capacities they pledged to provide can and have been used elsewhere without incurring significant costbecause they where going to invest in those capacities regardlessbecause the US had a comparative advantage in developing, procuring and fielding them because it meant that Europe lacked certain critical capabilities or at least in significant quantity and quality to start any undertaking without US support because it meant that the Europeans could spend more of their limited resources on those things they have a comparative advantage in like having a large enough land army to challenge the russians
>>65218808>but they where non the less able to beat back the russianslearn to read:>>65218741>and Russia doesn't have enough missileswe knew this going into the warwe knew this after the first AARsand we have long predicted that Europe would face the same problemfor example, this article:>https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2023/02/18/french-military-lacks-ammunition-for-high-intensity-conflict_6016329_5.htmlis only the latest postwar discussion; there had been many warnings raised before, too many to count, in the preceding decadesnot just for France but for NATO Europe in general>so low in supply that Ukraine had to not intercept incoming missiles or pass up very juicy targets because they had to husband the few they still hadyes, which is why the Russians haven't suffered even worse casualties than they already haveeven the small supply of HIMARS that Ukraine received was enough to force a complete paradigm shift in Russian strategy, did you know that?no, of course you don'tmost things you've ever said has always been rhetorical bullshit to explain away the mistakes of the pasttalk talk talk, that's all Europeans are good for>this disproves categorically your claim that it's all about the guided missilesthe only thing it disproves is any pretence of knowledge you have on the matter>her you go jumping datesSeethe and cope, it's the truth>the US volunteered to provide those capacities to NATOyou can keep repeating this self-exonerating fanfiction, you're only deluding yourselfthe fact is that Europeans have total control of their own national defence budgets and voluntarily chose to slash their budgets, over and above the repeated protestations of their own generals and destroying theri own defence industry to bootbecause they needed to spend on butter, not gunsbut heywir schaffen das, eh
cont. you bring up the spending goal because it's something you can point at and use it to shift the blameit's not the US's fault that for decades they have promised that when push came to shove they would provided those capacities and have now suddenly said they wouldn'tno it's those lazy Europeans under spendingbut once again within the NATO frame work it wasn't their job to spend on those capabilities they'd have more other things but none or very little of those things because that was the US's task, a task the US chosebecause again it's easier to move a patriot battery or a wing of stratotankers across the globe the 2% is also misleading the 2% is set based on the capacities the NATO member have to contributefor the Europeans that means the ground, air and naval forces that can contain and beat the russiansthe Europeans haven't met the spending goalthey have however constantly maintained an over mach against the russians ever since the fall of the wallthey atrophied because the russian weakness allowed them toand US commitment in Europe has similarly gone down from 350,000 in the 80ies to 70,000 nownow that russia has shown that it will use force that calculation has changed and the Europeans have started to increase their defense spending but again not primarily on those capacities that US said they'd providebecause why do double work? that decreases the comparative advantage that your alliance providesfinally I'd also want to remind you or any anon that reads thisthat guided munitions is the last hold out, the last leg of your slew of claims about Europeans not doing enoughall the others you've abandoned because you couldn't defend your claims when confronted by counter argumentsyou've even been shown to be wrong about guided munitions since Europe is also producing a ton of those in general, no it's just guided missiles
>>65218844it's good to see that you refuse to engage with the substance of my argument and can only nitpick like a woman throwing a hissy fit it all boils down to what is NATO's task and can Europe hold up it's part of that taskthe issue of munition scarcity is the same one you brought up two days ago now and one you've been shown again and again has been addressed by now with Europe out producing the US several times overbut then you go anal on guided missiles like they are mana from heaven and that no war can be waged without themwell, Europe produces more of them every year than the US has provided Ukraine so, yes they do in fact make enough of them to go up against the russiansand who else was NATO made to fight?
>>65218808e.g. the Aster / SAMP-T missile system was always there, as well as the upgrade programme to further improve its capabilities to true anti-ballistic missile interceptionyou didn't have to rely on Patriots AT ALLbut Europeans chose not to allocate enough funds to upgrade it, buy it, stockpile enough missilesand furthermore, the choice to buy Patriots was deliberate, on the assumption always that they could draw on American stockpiles, despite the Americans actually complaining about thatgo read in each country's defence white papers, whenever yet another capability was cut, the answer was always "we will rely on NATO Alliance capabilities" which meant the USand the Americans protested saying that they couldn't guarantee this capability>>65218862>a task the US chosedelusional>because why do double work?because the US always said they couldn't take up the slack:>all the others you've abandonedbecause it's too tiresome to rebut them allwarships? Americans have moretanks and IFVs? Americans have more, and of better qualitythe all-important strategic recon assets? Americans have more and betterAWACS, MPAs, logistics stockpiles? the Americans againthe only thing you have is those 155mm shells so that's all you cling toeven the Patria programme is merely catching up to the vast numbers of Strykers, JLTVs and MRAPs the Americans have>Europe is also producing a ton of those in generalyet another claim in a long slew of rhetoric which you're unable to provewhereas I can quote you how many missiles were built by both sides anytimeand I'm not American, fyi>https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2013/01/31/hold-the-line-on-defence-spending-secretary-general-urges>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13785056>https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2012/11/12/defence-spending-remains-essential-to-keep-nato-fit-for-the-future
>>65218888>you refuse to engage with the substance of my argument and can only nitpickwrongactually, I'm discussing the capability cuts at a high levelit would be way more stark if I were to detail just what critical assets the Europeans cut, all while claiming they didn't need them, and implicitly saying they could borrow the Americans' assets>https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/2012-and-natos-unresolved-capabilities-gap/>https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/public/Research/International%20Security/0112confsummary.pdf>https://www.epc.eu/publication/A-battle-against-decline-EU-d-1c53f4/>https://www.csis.org/analysis/toward-new-lost-decade-covid-19-and-defense-spending-europeall ancient news dating to past conflictsall warnings ignored for decades>with Europe out producing the US several times overonly on artillery shells and infantry equipment, nothing elsehoney, it's not WW1 anymore>no war can be waged without themcorrect>Europe produces more of them every year than the US has provided Ukrainewrongthe Americans gave hundreds of ATACMS missiles to UkraineEurope produces zero (0) artillery missilesthe nearest thing they have is air-launched cruise missiles, and they only ever built 1,000 Storm Shadow / SCALP, most of which have been given to Ukrainecurrently, all European countries combined built only 300 cruise missiles last yearthe Americans built twice that number in cruise missiles alone, thousands more in GMLRS and ATACMSFirepoint drones and missiles have reduced the need for land-attack missiles, but you'll notice they're only used for large static targets such as refineries. that's because they lack the capabilities to hit more mobile or heavier-defended battlefield targets.
>>65218922>the Americans gave hundreds of ATACMS missiles to UkraineFake & gay. The total shipment was barely around a hundred over a long time.
>>65218939>https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/27/world/europe/ukraine-russia-missiles-trump.html>In the spring, President Biden relented. The administration shipped Ukraine as many as 500 missiles from Pentagon stockpiles, the U.S. officials said.As usual, you don't know fucking shit, and you're dead wrong.
>>65218951>jew york times>literally whitewashed stalin and denied holodomorKill yourself
>>65218970Seething lmao
>>65218981nta, but he's right, nyt is very bad at being a reliable source of information, let's google this>The U.S. sent Ukraine less than 40 long-range ATACMS in total, the U.S. official told the AP. According to the official, Kyiv ran out of the missiles in January. >2025such cases
>less than 40Jesus fuckin' Christ
>>65218991>Kyiv claimspleasewe've seen more webms of ATACMS strikes than that>>65218997oh, it's armatardof course
>>65219005>the U.S. official toldlearn 2 read, faggot
These niggas will rewrite history and say that US provided a thousands M1 Abrams tanks, two thousands Bradleys and even a couple dozen F-35s.
>>65219007the 50 figure is a misreporting of the NYT article I posted, you duplicitous twatthe Ukrainians fired off more than 400 of the 500 transferred and that official was claiming that they only had 50 remaining, 40 in later articles
>>65219007>https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/12/27/7491045/inb4 pravda.ua is fake and gay
>>65219009>These niggas will rewrite history and say that US provided a thousands M1 Abrams tanks, two thousands Bradleys and even a couple dozen F-35s.Wait until you learn how they captured the enigma machine from a u-boat.
>>65219022Well, you see:a) it's bad reporting, they're linking to NYT, who in turn don't actually specify that 500 missiles being actually shipped, but pretty much "up to 500 missiles" being shipped, 50 missiles is also technically "up to 500";b) there were never any reporting of ATACMS being used so much by ukies in either 2024 or 2025, the strikes were rare and small, such as on air bases around Crimea when RU helicopters got fucked up;
>>65219033The confusion could also be because earlier ATACMS models were first shipped in late 2023, the M39s. No, 50 is way way too low, even the more skeptical OSINT fellas acknowledge that the number was certainly in the triple digits.I'm willing to meet in the middle; maybe only 40 of the later variants were shipped, but certainly hundreds of the M39s.
>>65219055>The confusion could also be because earlier ATACMS models were first shipped in late 2023You mean the M39 cluster variant? Those were like 20 missiles in total.
FYI not just NYT but the leaks were also made to WaPo, AP and Reuters, who do not quote NYT in their respective reports.that being said, it's true that they're all liberal rags. but in this particular case, OSINT data agrees (meaning, some anorak counted more than a hundred strikes in webms)>>65219064M39A1 is also cluster but longer-ranged.Ukraine said they first received the M39s, then limited numbers of "the longer-ranged variant", which could mean M39A1 or the later unitary warhead missile.
>>65219066>some anorak counted more than a hundred strikes in webmsCould you post a link to that? Because it seems like revisionism and cope. I never saw that many examples of ATACMS usage and all the googling shows extremely small numbers of missiles shipped to Ukraine.
>>65219064>Those were like 20 missiles in total>https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2023/10/ukraine-now-has-atacms-but-will-soon-need-more.phpAre you disingenuous or simply daft? 20 were reported transferred AS OF October 2023.AS OF.It's been years since then, and many more ATACMS strikes since. In fact, of this 20, they promptly used a dozen in the very first strike itself.On what basis can you say confidently that only "20 missiles in total" were transferred?unfuck yourself, mate>>65219069Sure, after you post your link that only 20 missiles "in total" were delivered.
