Why is urban warfare in Ukraine so much more brutal than it was in, like, Iraq? Is it lack of air superiority?Would you guys rather fight in Fallujah or something like Azovstal/Avdivka/Bakhmut
>>65215644Peer vs peer over an insurgency vs first world nation professional army Terrorists didn’t have ranks, su-57s , or any defense against air support or artillery they had a couple aka and mines
>>65216181/threadThe taliban wasn't about to hit you with glide bombs or guided rocket arty.
>>65215644Fallujah isn't even remotely close to the intensity of Avdiivka and Bakhmut, and those battles weren't (for Ukraine at least) even remotely close to the intensity of Azovstal, or Mariupol in general. Azovstal was a fortified bunker system in a massive urban industrial complex and by the time the russians gained control of the rest of the city, every man there was fully prepared and expecting to die. Food, ammo, and weapons were being scavenged off of dead russians. There were nearly 2500 soldiers defending the plant, 100% of them by now hardened veterans.Azovstal itself was a hardened facility that resisted airstrikes, missiles, etc. Infantry of both sides could and did set up snipers, machine guns, and rifle teams in every dark hidden spot you could think of. The defenders extensively booby trapped the place too. Donbabweans were basically used as cannon fodder throughout the battle of Mariupol, yet in the first week or two of the Azovstal siege, russia avoided any direct assaults because of how heavy the losses would be. They instead tried bombing the place, including with unguided munitions, but as mentioned previously that didn't fucking work. So then they did assault it and take those catastrophic losses. Most of the fighting was above ground but there was also tunnel combat. Imagine fighting in tight tunnels for days on end, knowing the room you're sleeping in is just down the hall from where the enemy is positioned. This continued for weeks, with russians still bombing the hell out of the place (which, given the use of unguided bombs and the close quarters proximity of forces, implies a near total disregard for friendly fire). While a minority wanted to surrender, the majority preferred death, and only surrendered after high command gave direct orders to cease fighting, including a direct appeal from Zelensky.So no, Fallujah is not even remotely close to that nightmare.
>>65216201Taliban mortar teams were pretty fucking deadly thoughalbeit
>>65215644The US had information dominance, air dominance, PGMs to spare, superlative infantry training advantage, etc etc. The cities the US invaded were less industrialized and had lower strongpoint densities.Russia has more meat, a limited air advantage, an artillery advantage, and essentially was equal to or worse off than Ukraine in every other metric. That Russia made any advances at all after the loss of strategic surprise is a testament to Russia’s brutal willingness to expend men more profligately than the US expends helicopter fuel.
>>65216245I wonder if a couple of US marine brigades would've done better in the Azovstal siege, if they were given the same equipment (but without air superiority). Dunno how well they would've done compared to the Russian soldiers.Also weren't the Azov fighters basically irregulars?
>>65216389Sure, compared to their other teams consisting of machine gunners mixed in with the shepherds, but it is a low bar.
>>65216469>done betterYes but also no, with better gear and training they would have attacked at night to use their NVG advantage and would have taken less casualties but it was such a clusterfuck "less casualties" would probably still be 100 to take a couple of acres.
>>65215644Slav vs Slav, plus being a testing ground for tactics and weapons (like the Spanish Civil War)
ukraine and russia are both limited in what they have (material, competent officers/soldiers, etc)
>>65216389>pretty fucking deadlyYou're not wrong about that.
>>65215644Slavs are built differently from Arabs.
>>65216469There were reorganized into the AfU in '14. And many of the Azov fighters in Mariupol had almost a decade of fighting experience.
>>65215644Fallujah was brutal, but if the answer is would I rather serve as an infantryman with or without America's mind boggling military supremacy, the answer is always yes.
>>65215644America is competent unlike Russia
>>65216702I don't believe overweight wellfare queen hispanics are better than one of the most battle hardened formation on the planet.
>>65216389They could be a real fucking menace to individual squads and shit, sure, but they weren't exactly mortaring all the Americans flat.
>>65216850so butthurt you pull the polcard, BTFO
>>65216245>Azovstalwill be epic gaming and movie material
>>6521564490% of Iraqi population is alongside the Euphrates and Tigris. It isn't spread out at all. Very easy to cover your flanks when the enemy is easy as fucking shit to spot when or if they try.Ukraine is a much larger country with forest for cover and its population is much more spread out and they have far more cities and every single fucking one of them is a concrete and steel nightmare.
>>65216715Wasnt Azovstal designed to weather a nuclear strike? What would the US airforce do?
>>65216181It is kind of funny we call Russia vs. Ukraine a peer war.
>>65218422>what would the fattest and most overfed child of the american mic dokeep dropping anti bunker gbu-31s until the place is a crater filled with corpses and what used to be a steel mill
>>65215644Big difference between conventional forces using a combined arms approach vs. insurgents using primarily small arms, RPG's, and mechanical ambush techniques with a variety of explosives.
>>65218430>me againbut basically a high explosive saturation bombing to force the defenders underground, then targeted penitrative bombing to bury them in their defense networkfairly textbook bombing doctrine
>>65217109thats mostly because the rest of the taliban forces weren't properly equipped, so they couldn't really use the taliban's mortar capabilities to full extent.
The soviets were awful and living in the soviet union would be awful, but they expected to have nuclear war, had lessons from ww2 urban fighting, and built commie blocks to withstand nuclear blasts from a distance. Every city is full of fortresses that can soak up a lot of damage before flattened. By the time a city is taken they are flattened. It is brutal warfare.
>>65216245What's fucked is the treatment the Azovstal PoWs received. Fucking systemic torture, starvation and some even got fucking castrated - if they survived at all.
>>65218482weren't they doing that shit to russians all the time?
>>65218484The Azov batallion was mostly russian itself, so they treated Russians better and in turn got treated better themselves by the Russians.
>>65218484Probably some cases where they couldn't stomach treating those animals well anymore, but they have strict orders to treat them well. There's dozens of videos of Azov/Kraken soldiers taking, treating, feeding and interviewing Russian PoWs, and I don't think they keep a necklace of vatnik balls in the company barracks.
>>65216181>su-57sRussia doesn't have those either. Also, fat.
>>65218488Dubs. B8?
>>65215644A lot of reasons, one of the biggest was the Insurgents lived in the area, and the ones who didnt at best trickled in after the coalition could cordon off the city. In Ukraine, both sides immensely struggle to actually surround cities, so it devolves to both nations funneling their men through the sides they control, and fight it out in the cities
As others have said, Haji wasn't able shell you for a night then drive a column of armor towards you while denying you your air assets.the Lame War On Terror was mostly policing action outside the initial invasion. COIN at most.
>>65218482>Azovstal PoWs receivedThey weren't special in that regard. Or maybe just a little. That's standard Russian handling of prisoners, be it the enemy or their own fellow Russians.
>>65216469US Marines were at Azovstal, defending the plant. Yes, yes "volunteers", right? JKust a couple of guys who joined AZOG for fun and crazy advebntures. Funny how the 22nd MEU happened to be deployed at the time and was crashed out to Europe. Funny how nobody has heard from a bunch of Marine Raiders since that time? Maybe they're on holiday? All these strange coincidences. I'm sure everyone here believes the US government at all times, right? And it's *well known* that it's """impossible""" for the US government to cover up catastrophic losses to a marine battalion, yet not much has been heard 2/6th Marines since then. So many strange coincidences piling up. Everywhere collapsed but Mariupol and Azovstal, which miraculously managed to hold out against the entire Russian army, and managed to stay supplied despite air defense being tighter than an Afghan's sphincter. unless of course you had access to stealth choppers. How very strange that DPR troops reported getting hit by very accurate fire support all the time, almost like they were being bombed by stealth bombers being called in by US JTACs. But then could *never* happen right. Funny how it just happened to be the right time to slow down the Russian steamroller at a key point and stop them advancing fastly and saved the Kiev regime. Oh, I'm sorry obviously I meant the """"Kyiv Democratic Government For Realisies"""", I know how precious your pronouns are to you. I'm just a crazy schizo, right? No way American marines were deployed and took heavy losses supporting an illegal regime, that couldn't happen. Everything is understood.
>>65218796lol, lmao even.
>>65218796can you write whatever you wrote here again but with less cryingpreferably on a different board
>>65218484>All the timeNo. Afaik they were doing those things specifically to artillerymen, because at one point Russia was basically indiscriminately shelling civilian population centers near the front line
>>65219093>>65219101Why do you think Biden and then Trump have been so hands off, keeping their puppet at arms length? Because Russia holds captured marines they caught at Azovstal, and if that information it means Russia and America are at war, which means the nukes come out and the whole world dies in fission fire.We literally defeated NATO at Mariupol but can't tell anyone.
>US Marines were at Azovstalmfw
>>65219599NATO troops have been captured all over Ukraine. Several hundred French in Podoly and Kupyansk most recently.
>>65219615Sure, sure. seems legit.
>>65219615May I see them?
>>65219654
>>65218482The russians really are fucking stupid. The whole reason they took a last stand and were ready to fight viciously to the end, was because they knew that they would be treated that way. Then, when they traded Medvedev and other corruptniks over for the Azovstal POWs, the whole nation saw televised images of their heroes emaciated, bruised, and ill after months+ in russian hands. Treating POWs humanely helps your own side
>>65219663Sorry to burst your schizo chugtroon fanfic but this guy isn't french and is half Ukrainian half Bsssarabian Bulgarian from Azov
>>65219593>>65219615This shit is reads exactly the same as those Jeet fanfics about their world spanning empires and those supposed 1v50 battles they won lmao. You russniggers really are depigmented Jeets
>>65218796>US Marines were at Azovstal, defending the plantIn the hoi4 campaign you played while your mother was being groped by international Churka specialists from Tajikistan? Maybe>Yes, yes "volunteers", right? JKust a couple of guys who joined AZOG for fun and crazy advebntures. Funny how the 22nd MEU happened to be deployed at the time and was crashed out to EuropeYes, a couple of volunteers, if an entire MEU was deployed to Mariupol we would have obituaries about their deaths, or reports from their relatives and friends. I know your fetal alcohol syndrome is acting up, but this kind of information is impossible to conceal. Where are the military IDs as well? And why were there no equipment and vehicles characteristic to the USMC like LAV and AAVs, the IARs etc nekulturniy pidor?>Funny how nobody has heard from a bunch of Marine Raiders since that time? Maybe they're on holiday? All these strange coincidencesTake your meds>All these strange coincidences. I'm sure everyone here believes the US government at all times, right? And it's *well known* that it's """impossible""" for the US government to cover up catastrophic losses to a marine battalion, yet not much has been heard 2/6th Marines since then. So many strange coincidences piling up.Your clitty is leaking badly, these casualties are impossible to cover-up. Again, take the meds but additionaly take the ones that seal your clitty leakage>Everywhere collapsed but Mariupol and Azovstal, which miraculously managed to hold out against the entire Russian army, and managed to stay supplied despite air defense being tighter than an Afghan's sphincterNekulturniy pidor untermensch, why such brazen khutzpah? Kharkiv, Sumy, Chernigov, Kyiv, Mykolaiv, Poltava and even Sloviansk and Kramatorsk held out, killed entire brigades worth of ziggers in a day and we're ressuplied effectively. I don't understand the Judaic arrogance, this wasn't even that long ago. Do you think people are retarded and forgerful?
>>65219797>Yes, a couple of volunteers, if an entire MEU was deployed to Mariupol we would have obituaries about their deaths, or reports from their relatives and friends. I know your fetal alcohol syndrome is acting up, but this kind of information is impossible to conceal. Where are the military IDs as well? And why were there no equipment and vehicles characteristic to the USMC like LAV and AAVs, the IARs etc nekulturniy pidor?This reminds me of killing hundreds of dudes from some supposed "reddid brigade". It was parroting everywhere, to this day it comes out now and then. Yet still not a single name, not grieving US mothers and neither side used it for propaganda.
>I BELIEVE THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AT ALL TIMES OH MY GOD YOU QUESTIONED THE NARRATIVE YOU SCHIZO!The actual state of /k/- Glowies
>>65219828there were 0 nato soldiers at mariupol and there is 0 proof any ever were lol
>>65219797>if an entire MEU was deployed to Mariupol we would have obituaries about their deaths, or reports from their relatives and friends.America like the Yookay had/has an entire legal department for threatening the relatives of people who go against government narratives. In the yookay it's called the Nudge Unit in America it's the Social and Behavioral Science Team. It's basically an Orwellian nightmare that goes after the families of people who were killed by immigrants or whatever and forces them to toe the government line with threats of legal action, hence why they always say shit like "We don't want this to divide people, we are forgiving the person who killed our relative and so should you, justice has been done"
>>65219836Your government hates you and wants you dead.
>>65219813Bold of you to assume people would mourn redditor relatives, and not just feel relief they wouldn't turn up at thanksgiving anymore haing trooned out a bit more in the intervening year
>>65219875>Anon refuted my schizopost with a reality check?>I will defeat him by schizoposting again, now with added cope and seethe!
>>65216245
>invent shit out of whole cloth>someone points out there is literally no evidence for it>WAAAH YOU'RE ALL GLOWIESflat earther tier>th-there's no evidence because they're HIDING IT!fucking hell, anon, come on
>>65218796This entire post isn't true. But it should have been.
>>65219875>America like the Yookay had/has an entire legal department for threatening the relatives of people who go against government narratives. In the yookay it's called the Nudge Unit in America it's the Social and Behavioral Science Team. It's basically an Orwellian nightmare that goes after the families of people who were killed by immigrants or whatever and forces them to toe the government line with threats of legal action, hence why they always say shit like "We don't want this to divide people, we are forgiving the person who killed our relative and so should you, justice has been done"None of this shit stays a secret you dumbfuck churka lmao. We know thousands of people which go ho against government narratives and spill the beans on immigrants what they have done. An entire MEU being captured or killed would have been known about already, this shit is IMPOSSIBLE to hide. You couldn't refute anything from what I said, hence the Pidorashka meltdown. I'm starting to believe you're just doing a classic Pidorashka projection, everything you say is quite similar to how the Russian Pederation hides the deaths of their soldiers, declares them as missing in order to refuse payment to their zigger piggy payments. Shit, the whole schizopost about the entire 22nd MEU being killed sounds like a projection over the fact that Russia's entire 155th naval infantry brigade got demolished 19 times and had to be rebuilt from scratch 19 times as well.>>65219882So does yours nekulturniy pidor, you are being sent to a certain death against Ukrainians while Ahmed, Khabib and Kobildjon have fun with Natashkas
>>65216245I mean the real problem with Fallujah wasn’t the intensity per se mor of the small scale house to house clearing that made it brutal while not on the same level the unknown nature of some of the buildings maybe contributed to the reputation https://youtu.be/ELiyB0YAvww?si=bFWS3aNbAliFx25l
>>65219813From what i understand, including from later interviews of foreign volunteers, the strike really did happen as part of Russia more broadly targeting military bases (the ones from their soviet era maps, i think)The foreign volunteers got out, but a neighboring barracks full of Ukrainian officers in training was hit, and a lot of them were killed.
>>65221234Lol, the US government hid HUNDREDS of casualties in their bases during their failwar with Iran. Literally hundreds of injured soldiers. I know wake up sheeple has become a meme, but you are a sheeple
>>65218796>US Marines were at AzovstalActually they were SAS. Boris Johnson was there too.
>>65221474This, don't forget Iran also captured 40 delta force members.
>>65221234HANGED. YOU HANG A PERSON.
>>65221485What has Jackson Hinkle been up to lately?
Why do the orcs still fear it? Avoid it like it is cursed? What did Azov uncover in the uncharted depths beneath that monstrosity of concrete and steel? What lurks beneath Azovstal? What horrors?
>>65221498The ghost of Oskar Dirlewanger, waiting to be unleashed
>>65221496Probably drinking himself to death since MAGA went full MIGA and his grift is basically dead.
>>65221501
>>65221496Same shit as Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson, and everyone else on vatnig payroll: looking like a deranged muslim-loving homo
>>65221496He's probably the anon I replied to.
>>65216181I'm old enough to remember when people thought that the Iraqi army would shame the US.
>>65221516What, back in 1991?
>>65216181>Terrorists didn’t have ranks, su-57s , neither does russia
>>65221516To be fair, the US government was putting out warnings that the US might take 10,000 casualties in the first day in '91. Nobody knew how effective all the new 80s toys would be.And if Saddam had used the chemical weapons he still had then, it might have been pretty ugly.
>>65221518Yes, that is what he just implied. You want a gold star, faggot?
>>65221474Yeah sure bro, 6 million casualties yet no obituaries or news. Kys retard. The only part that's true is hundreds (read- 200) wounded, yet that's better than 1 mil wounded or crippled ziggers for one village per 2 weeks>I know wake up sheeple has become a meme, but you are a sheepleStop projecting Pidorashka, Jewtin is driving you retards to extinction. You're dying 35k+ a month against Ukrainians yet you faggots make up "We wuz fighting Nato and shieeet" stories to cope with it. Jewtin could piss and shit into your mouth and you'd ask for more, don't think you can call others sheeple after that nekulturniy pidor>>65221487That would be the Russians and their tranny like suicide tendencies
>>65219694>Treating POWs humanely helps your own sideThat sounds like some woke libtard shit. It's the department of WAR, hippie. Why do you love china and iran and hate america and freedom?
>>65221537>Can't argue the point>Resorts to insults
>>65221595You literally lost the argument and started out with tranny, sheeple, AZOG and all that. Why do you have such a Judaic, projection based talking process?
>>65221528i thought he meant 2003
>>65219882>Your government hates you and wants you dead.lol confirmation that its brown subhumans who are spamming this
>>65218796ziggy tsardust sperging out as usual
>>65221548Can't tell if parody, or a completely serious post from Robert
I'd rather not fight an artillery and landmine war in general. Yeah you had IED's in Iraq but fuck Slavic warfare.
