Probably the most disastrous hostage rescue operation in history. What went wrong there?Would some other's countries military have handled the situation better?
>>65231438>What went wrong there?Russians being russians.
>>65231440Basically this. I have always thought Russia was still very bitter over the Budyonnovsk hospital crisis and wished to avoid a repeat. Other nations would have shown a more restrained reaction but I don't think it would have been a cake walk.It really was just a super shitty situation to be given.
>>65231438read The 2002 Dubrovka and 2004 Beslan Hostage Crises by John Dunloptldr: the feds wanted a big victorious storm + no one had any real control of the scene on the ground
>>65231438>what went wrongwell... a lot by our standards, but frankly it's the one fuckup I'm willing to excuse Russians on because the whole situation was just an absolute worst case shitshow and I don't think there was any scenario at all where the hostages would surviveThe terrorists were equipped with explosives which would activate upon the wearer's death, groups of hostages were stood on pressure plates which would trigger explosives if the hostages moved, the whole building was booby trapped with yet more explosives, and the terrorists were intentionally letting hostages die of thirst so as to not allow any time for negotiations or putting together a coherent planShooting thermobaric rockets at a building full of civilians is spectacularly retarded under most circumstances, but I don't think it made much of a difference here
>70% hostages survival rate>0% hostage takers survival rateThat's decent
What the fuck is going on with this torso thing?
>>65231438>we are the terrorists, negotiate with us! >nyetI mean it's effective in the sense that there's no point in repeating it, can't enact change through hostage-taking if they shoot through the hostages to kill you
>>65231744This anon pretty much sums it up
>>65231755This. 70% survival rate shows how not weak but ahkshully stronk Russia is, because they didn't care about hostages at all. From their perspective, they did a bang up job and 100%'ed the objective of murdering everyone they wanted to make dead. The fact that there were extra dead is neither here nor there - people die every day, but what mattered was appearing stronk and decisive.No, really, that's the death cult calculus.
>>65231853He's just bending forward, facing the ground.It just looks weird because he's wearing an extremely baggy and ill-fitting uniform.
>>65231870Weak american mindset:>ahhh please dont hurt our dang ol kids mr mujahideen, we'll do whatever you want!!Strong russian grindset:>we will remember the sacrifice of these patriot children >dasha tell howitzer to go
No one bothers taking large groups of hostages anymore. Its basically now just mass killings like the theater attack. Because no one, not even Europeans will bother negotiating with inbred retarded savages (EG muzzies). We know the takers will kill as many people as is necessary, so itsb etter to account for them all dead, and anyone you bring back alive is a blessing.Others have raised good points already about the russian response. It's a clusterfuck but truly don't think anyone else would have had better results(beyond not intentionally shooting the building with tanks and atgms of course). Majority of the hostages would still be dead no matter who attempts the rescue due to above mentioned circumstances.
>>65231438People don't want to believe that life isn't a Rainbow Six mission away, but when they have tens of hostages with explosives and a dead man's switch, sometimes everyone's gonna die.
>>65231946In modern day we can do hostage rescue with FPVs equipped with recoilless shotgun shells, more survivable than bombardment for the hostages
If only I were God, shit like this wouldn't happen. Alas.>>65231884kek
>>65231946the main reason we don't see large scale hostage situation in the west. is that taking an keeping such a large group of hostages takes a large, well organized, well equipped and above all well trained group of terroristsa group capable of pulling that off stand a very high risk of getting discovered/rated out/infiltrated before they can pull of their attack even with the crocus city attack the west was warning the russians that an attack was very likely
>>65232011Or if youre hezbollah you can just walk in the gate they leave unlocked for you
What unit(s) did the Russians send? They seem like some African tier retards
>>65232042they had everything, FSB, The army, the airforce I believe with the helicopters, some local militia even.
>>65232042>African tier retardsRussian units
>>65232056They are called the afrika corps now, hon
>>65232053And that was part of the problem, because everyone wanted to be the biggest swinging dick involved, so there was no unified command structure.
>>65231438IDF would just open fire with 30mm and throw Hellfires at the pupils.
>>65231870See also: hannibal directive
>>65232124Not really, the Israelis did well in their mass hostage rescue operation compared to the Russians, although they also killed a couple of civilians during the crossfire.Bibi's brother also got killed.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid
>>65231438I never noticed that scope before on the vss what is it?
>>65232042No clue if this is BS or not, but I remember hearing there was a huge mob of civilians watching the incident, many of whom were armed with personal hunting weapons, eager to go in and try to save whoever they could. It was a big task just to try and keep them back.I also heard that at least one of the terrorists was captured alive and thrown to the mob, who promptly ripped him to shreds, although I can't find any info on that now.
>>65231744They should have agreed to all of their demands and then brutally reneg once the hostages were free. Even if it takes years.You play the cards you're dealt.
>>65231438We had more school shooting deaths in that one incident in Russia than in every American school shooting since.
>>65232186KOP-2, early laser rangefinder.
>>65232216The demands included, among other things, delivering several political opponents to the hostage takers, presumably so that they could be executed. That is not a demand that can be reasonably fulfilled, and as I said, any further negotiation was all but impossible because of the time constraint
>>65231438Taking hostages becomes pointless if your enemy does not value the life of said hostages. Checkmate.
>>65231438for as much justified shit we give to the russians for this, when i properly dug into it, i was really suprised just how much more prepared and willing thoes terrorists are compared to those we have in the west. Maybe it's because they were more white, idk, but regardless, these guys were WAY better prepared than the london embassy or bataclan. More of them, dead man switches, plenty of suicide vests, a plan, wired explosives all over the hostages, ect, ect. If it had happened in the west, i don't think there would have been low causalities. I mean they immediately got in and started to kill the hostages who they thought might be problematic.
>>65231438I may have nothing but contempt for Russia but there was nothing that could have possibly prevented a bloodbath.The Chechens issued impossible demands they knew weren't going to be met, and got ready to massacre as many of the hostages if (when) they weren't, often by means of dead man's switches.Now this doesn't mean using multiple T-72s to shoot 125mm HE-FRAG warheads into a building where hostages are being held (a thing that actually happened) is a great hostage rescue tactic, but refraining from doing so would probably not change the death toll much.
>>65233226>Now this doesn't mean using multiple T-72s to shoot 125mm HE-FRAG warheads into a building where hostages are being heldTheres never going to be consensus on /k/ regarding this aspect of the siege, but fundamentally there are only so many ways to clear an entrenched MG nest, and direct fire from a tank and thermobaric launchers (which were also used) are some of the best, especially when you don't have any time to work with. An equivalent western unit may have plausibly fucked around with helicopter sharpshooters and maybe found success, and obviously in 2026 we'd use an FPV to take it out, but I think with the resources they had in 2004; rockets and shells were the only real choice.
>>65231438>What went wrong there?More russians didnt die, unfortunately
>>65233236They could have used 30mm shells from a BTR instead of a huge tank round.
>>65233236Maybe the bigger issue is the terrorists being able to set up an entrenched MG nest in the first place as part of their terror attack, which indicates prior failings of Russia that it could get to that point.
>>65231744What were their demands? Would have been better to completly bend to their demands?
>>65233551Basically the answer all along was "Maybe you can let the shitty economically unproductice and strategically insignificant breakway republic have its independence"(?)
>>65231744>retarded under most circumstances, but I don't think it made much of a difference hereSure, but its like stabbing yourself while being attacked with a knife, and then excusing it with that you were going to be stabbed anyway.
>>65233236Teargas anon
>>65233236>>65233226I honestly don't think a western response to an identical situation in the US, France, or wherever would have been any better. The terrorists only took hostages I order to bait an assault. There was never an attempt to negotiate in good faith or even plan on leaving by the terrorists. They went in heavily armed as soldiers and planned on killing as many Russians as possible before they were "martyred.">well the SAS/Delta/GIGN/whoever would have gone in and done ninja magic and...No. They would have gone in, gotten stalled by IEDs and hostages being in the way, and then relying on a tanks (pic related). Trying to compare Belsan to the Iranian Embassy is like comparing 9/11 to Lufthansa 181.
The actual deal is Russia fucked things up long before the incident itself happened, thats why shit so stupid happened there and not in better countries.It was a result of the failure of their actions and mindset over time.
>>65231438>What went wrong there?Nothing, Russia wanted to show they valued the lives of their people low enough that negotiation was never an option.Why do people keep forgetting that the Russian government actively hates the Russian people?
>>65236544>Recognition of the independence of Chechnya at the U.N. and withdrawal of Russian troops.>Presence of the following people at the school: Aleksander Dzasokhov (president of North Ossetia), Murat Zyazikov (president of Ingushetia), Ruslan Aushev (former president of Ingushetia) and Leonid Roshal (a pediatrician). Alternatively, instead of Roshal and Aushev, the hostage-takers might have named Vladimir Rushailo and Alu Alkhanov (pro-Moscow president of Chechnya)>the terrorists also demanded a letter of resignation from President PutinYeah, this shit wouldnt happen.
>>65236654>Leonid Roshal (a pediatrician)What does he have to do with anything?
>>65236544>Would have been better to completly bend to their demands?Once you do that you get 1,000 new Beslans every year because you've shown that you can be blackmailed into doing anything.
>>65231438>What went wrong there?Everything. The people who were allowed to negotiate were puppets chosen to appease a bare minimum instead of actually negotiating. Nobody was in charge, everybody and their gun toting grandmother showed up for this one and every single one of them knew what the singular answer was. No civilian emergency services on standby, not enough ambulances, the fire brigade wasnt called until two hours after the fire began and even then the first to arrive didn't have enough water. Literally everything about the response highlighted the ineptitude and incompetence of the government that the terrorists were critical of. In a way it legitimized the message of not trusting Putin's government to protect or provide for its people considering that a ragtag group of assholes with guns who spent around €8,000, could bring Russia into crisis mode.>Would some other's countries military have handled the situation better?Probably not? Maybe less deaths? Considering the dead man switches and the immediacy of blasting the strongest male hostages immediately, I can't imagine this kind of thing happening without some kind of death count.
The 2002 Moscow Theater Siege was way worse than Beslan I'd say, since most of the dead hostages were killed by Spetznas and not the Chechens.
>>65236657https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_RoshalRoshal helped negotiate the release of children in the 2002 Moscow siege, I think requesting him was an optics thing and was a test to see if the government was serious about negotiating
>>65231438>What went wrong there?Everything Russia did that lead to this situation.Actions have consequences.
>>65236695They didn't fire tanks, RPG's and grenades at a school full of kids in 2002
How many died during the more recent russian mall terror attack? Where a handful of terrorists just went around killing people and setting it on fire and the authorities failed to respond despite their office just being like an hour away?
>>65236695Apparently most of the IED's didn't go off and there were explosive puncture marks from outside going in
>>65233226Same. Russians have a long history of fucking up hostage situations, but really, Beslan was about the worst possible scenario imaginable and nobody would have been able to resolve it without massive casualties. I’d even argue that the situation ultimately was resolved with relatively small amount of casualties when you consider how utterly fucked up it was in every imaginable way.
>>65236756Other people wouldn't have gotten into the situation in the first place.
>>65236693>In a way it legitimized the message of not trusting Putin's governmentIt also single-handedly destroyed the Chechens' international image as muh poor oppressed ethnic peoples who just want freedom from big bully Rusnya and justified essentially any response from the Russian government.
>>65236760true
>>65236759How? By giving Chechnya independence?That's a tall order and I don't like Russia (kind of an euphemism honestly).They were just starting to recover from a decade of humiliation (including literally begging their old enemies for food) and a massive drop in living standards, their pride was all they had left and they realistically weren't just going to start letting oblasts go.
>>65236784Man, sometimes you just gotta pull a rotten tooth
Russia show weakness when they didn`t culled half of the population of Chechenia and deport the rest to Siberia. Never show kindness or mercy to the enemy so they will exploit it to attack you. Chechenia should be raze to the ground.
>>65236925Big words from someone who still pays tribute to said churkas.
>>65231853They call it "Igor".Some say he once used to be a man, like you and me.
>>65231438>What went wrong there?Just about everything.>Would some other's countries military have handled the situation better?Probably, but when you're at the point the terrorists have already strapped bombs to kids, you're kinda fucked. Negotiations weren't really possible, both because of the methods used by the terrorists and the armed and angry locals ready to take matters into their own hands. Dead man switches and boobytraps make an assault a bloodbath. And the terrorists are real jihadists who have plenty of reason to hate you, and don't mind dying at all. It really would be hard to make it worse.>>65236784Yeah. They never had to have the first war. Russia's pride over worthless empty tracts of land will be their nation's undoing.>okay sure we can give up Moldova, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Georgia, Tajikistan, etc but GOD FORBID we give up one more churka filled wasteland with nothing of value in it
America would have glass Chechenia before that.
>>65232129>hannibal directiveSend in the elephants?
>>65237021Russians did that too.
>>65237034Russians rebuilt it and pay Jizya every month to them, Americans instead would killed every women and children there. America is based and Russia is sissy.
>>65231438>Would some other's countries military have handled the situation better?Israel.Declare all hostages honorary Jews. And then America would be required to exact revenge for any injuries/deaths.
>>65232233>laser rangefinder>on a weapon with an effective range of 300m tops
>>65237280...Did you just not think about this at all, or have you never shot a gun at further than point blank? Yeah, it's kinda very important to have precise ranging when your projectile has like a foot of shift in POI between 150m and 175m. Meanwhile you can just point and click with say an SVD and at worst walk your shot in out to like 1000m, easy. Meanwhile if you're even 50m off on the VSS you won't even see impact because it's more than two feet below your point of aim.
