In a letter to Ian Fleming, Geoffrey Boothroyd called the Beretta 418 "a woman's gun." Ian was so affected by this critique that he replaced James Bond's Beretta with the Walther PPK in his next novel, 1958's Dr. No. Do you think Geoffrey's critique was correct? Was the PPK better as James Bond's primary spy sidearm?
In terms of pure aesthetics yes, the PPK is a better choice. Since it's a work of fiction aesthetics is all that matters.
>>65260365The critique was over the cartridge the 418 fired, not the gun itself. The 6.35 Browning does not have much stopping power, it's suitable for a woman who can put the barrel to her assailant's eye as she's being raped, but not much else. The point of the change to the PPK was to switch to the 7.65 Browning, which does have decent stopping power (JM Browning carried a variety of pistols chambered in this cartridge over the years).
>>65260365Ideally the armory should research the place he's going and issue him a copy of whatever the locals are using, so as to cause less suspicion if he gets caught or has to throw it away.
>>65260423James Bond has never been about realistic spycraft. It's about gadgets, explosions, and fucking pretty women.
>>65260426James Bond is a Science Fact series
>>65260365>Was the PPK better as James Bond's primary spy sidearm?Yes, it's just a way better pistol, with a better cartridge. Also, the specific Beretta 418 that Bond carried was a bubba piece of shit which he had taken a hacksaw to and removed the grips from.It's slightly larger, but it's still not a very big pistol, so it's not that difficult to conceal and carry, and it's an easier to shoot pistol (better grip, better sights with longer radius), with more power. Could probably be easier to source extra ammunition in the field if absolutely necessary, given that .32 / 7.65mm has been used by many police departments and even militaries.>>65260367That too.>>65260423That's not as iconic and brandable.For the sake of argument, the Walther PPK isn't a particularly unusual pistol in typical western countries anyway, and wouldn't seem particularly out of place on a British man who brought a weapon with him (setting aside the given legalities). It'd maybe raise eyebrows in Soviet countries, but at a glance they look similar to a Makarov to someone who doesn't know gun stuff, and those countries weren't actually without some old WW2 era PPKs of their own in some places, especially in East Germany.Presumably though, if he's drawn his gun, the jig is kinda up already anyway, and people are gonna know something is up, assuming it's someone he hasn't had to kill.
>>65260426He fucks ugly women. Lol.
>>65260767You are a homosexual.
The P99 is objectively the best bond gun
>>65260774Good pistol, but it's not a compact one in the same way.
>>65260365>Do you think Geoffrey's critique was correct?Many people think it's because Geoffrey hated .25 ACP, and that's not true; he just hated that the Beretta 418 was a jam-o-matic that only a women looking for a purse gun would ever
>Brits are so bad at designing firearms that the most well known British spy has to have a German gunAre there any British or even Commonwealth designed semiautomatic pistols that made it into mass production?
>>65262335>using a gun that identifies your country of origin>as a spySolid logic there, anon. Solid.
>>65260767Based.
>>65262346>we were gonna say the Brits did this but that gun is clearly made in GermanyWhat level of sims 3, NATO stickers and green wigs is this retardation?
>>65260365>read a series>see some gay shit>write a letter to the author>"ayo nigga this sum ole gay shit should change that frfr nigga unless u gay as fuck and a bitch">tfw he changes it in the next entry
>>65260365The Walther PPK was common all over Europe and the world at the time so it would be plausibly deniable for a secret agent to carry one around. Hell, you could even scale up to a Walther P38 if you want since those were everywhere too thanks to the war. The CIA even issued a special suppressed slide and camera case lookalike bag for it too.
>>65262335Good question. There must've been some on a small scale at some point but I think the shifting of the arms market came at just the wrong moment for British industry and by the time they were in a position to, there wasn't much point beyond pride because there were already plentiful mature designs to pick from.Certainly there was nothing on the scale of their revolvers.>>65262405Anon it's about increasing your plausible deniability. Same reason the Soviets would often supply Chinese production clones of their own rifles to places instead of actual AKs. A hi-power with a nice British acceptance mark on it is probably unwise.What you're trying to avoid is something that can be embarrassingly juxtaposed against your denial of involvement.
>>65260365I think the Beretta 418 should get more credit precisely because it's a tiny woman's gun.Bond's not a marine, or an operator or anything. He doesn't generally need to send lead over long ranges to hit targets. He needs something that can do the job up close, but fit comfortably and invisibly inside a well-tailored suit pocket so the femme fatale in the sexy dress he's dancing with doesn't notice he's armed. Ideally, while also allowing space to carry a few more fancy gadgets.If he needs anything more than the Beretta can supply, he can use his spy skills to compensate.A literal pocket pistol is perfect for him.
>>65263159Book bond rarely used his gun anyway, most of the time he gets caught with it and has it removed. Golden Gun is the only time he has it start to finish and actually kills the bad guy with it as far as I remember
>>65260365>replacing a woman's gun with another woman's gun kek
>>65263159That’s the silly part. I think Fleming was so put out over being told it was a “woman’s gun” that practicality went straight out the window. It might be an overused word now, but the man was a misogynist back when that actually meant something.
>>65263286>Women are often meticulous and safe drivers, but they are very seldom first-class. In general, Bond regarded them as a mild hazard and he always gave them plenty of road and was ready for the unpredictable. Four women in a car he regarded as the highest potential danger, and two women nearly as lethal. Women together cannot keep silent in a car, and when women talk they have to look into each other’s faces. An exchange of words is not enough. They have to see the other person’s expression, perhaps to read behind the others’ words or analyze the reaction to their own. So two women in the front seat of a car constantly distract each other’s attention from the road ahead and four women are more than doubly dangerous for the driver not only has to hear and see, what her companion is saying but also, for women are like that, what the two behind are talking about
>Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody, and he finds out about it, he may be very angry with you.
>>65260365>Beretta 418yes, my granma carried one in her purse. but a undercover agent could use it since its so small you can carry it anywere
>>65263323Sure, you can holster it in your sock. But why have a gun at all if there's no guarantee it'll actually kill your target? A thick jacket could stop .25 ACP.
>>65262335>>65262926A. Depends on how you define mass productionB. Webley Self Loading pistols were produced in the thousands of units and saw service with a wide variety of usersC. There were a variety of smaller Webley pocket pistols, I believe some H&R designs are similar in style or might be outright copies. Picrel. I have seen some fitted with suppressors even (probably for props mind).
>>65263159I don't know why people always talk about Bond's sidearm like he's using it for carefully planned assassinations and not generally to protect himself and the mission when things go a bit wrong. The PPK is a better choice precisely because it gives him a more workable option should he find himself in a firefight.
>>65262329I can see the appeal in something like the old Baby Colts for a pocket gun or ankle gun, just small backup.The PPK just seems a more suitable weapon for a guy like 007 though, still compact, but a lot more to work with, a lot easier to actually aim, fire, and control, and that'd still be true even if it was chambered in .25 Auto, but .32 Auto is just better of a choice.>>65262335>the most well known British spy has to have a German gun1. It's a good pistol for the task.2. It provides more plausible deniability given that the Walther PP and PPK have been commercially popular around Europe, even Eastern Europe before Communism, and even in the U.S as well.3. James Bond has a strong emphasis on image and cool, and the PPK is a cool little pistol.>Are there any British or even Commonwealth designed semiautomatic pistols that made it into mass production?Yes, though it's not a huge amount. Webley made their .455 caliber automatic, which actually seems like it was a pretty good pistol which would have gone on to have been very good if it hadn't gotten fucked by economic circumstances in WW1 ("We need lots more handguns now, skip the automatic thing and just make as many revolvers as you can with your existing tooling, pronto.").I think part of it is that the civilian commercial market in Britain for handguns was already legally limited early on in the 20th century, so the major customer for handguns would be police and military, who are already set up by the gov't, and the rest would be buying imported handguns from the rest of Europe and overseas.Legislation killing markets and innovation and all that, one of those things where the wrong paths were chosen for Britain.
>>65263378I agree. It's not like Bond only ever uses a pocket pistol. He busts out assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles, rocket launchers, a taser thing in his watch...
>>65263378Which is silly because SOE during the war (on which a large part of Flemings work was based) made use of a whole variety of pistols from full size 9mm handguns to deliberately concealable Welwands or whatever random pocket pistols they could find laying around (including baby brownings, FN1900s etc). The PPK is fine but there was fundamentally nothing wrong with the Beretta either.Boothroyd originally suggested a revolver for Bond so I think that tells you of his "expertise" when he originally wrote to Fleming in the first place.
.25 acp is an ideal sentry removal gun because if you are going for a headshot, or are using it point blank, it's totally adequate. 10'' into ballistics gel at 10 yards, a single shot will absolutely kill someone. And in terms of conceal-ability weight is as big a factor as dimensions, and that's the main issue with the walter, which probably weighs twice as much desipite not being that much larger dimensionally. If this was just in your pocket, how likely would it be to print for example. Would you rather the Walther? well...put it this way, .32 is a better round, better deal all round, but if neither is servicable in a fire fight, neither will pen 2A or hard targets, well then the drawback is likely the gun itself. Small caliber weapons are unfairly judged because they are often in the hands of people with no training, pussies who hate the recoil of ordinary guns, or can't afford a 9mm. statistics reflect that, but it's not a issue with the gun.
>>65263389new bond isn't a spy, shows no skill in espionage whatsoever, he's just a generic action hero. Rambo in a suit.
>>65263388>I think part of it is that the civilian commercial market in Britain for handguns was already legally limited early on in the 20th centuryNot as much as you would think really. It wasn't until 1937 that self-defence was refused as a reason, until 1968 that licensing really meant anything and until the late 1990s that pistols were banned.I've spoken with some guys who own Webley Mk1Ns in the UK (Section 7.1/7.3 of our law if you're interested) and iirc they struggle with fouling on the sliding tracks for the barrel. I didn't really understand how (given that many other pistols use similar designs without issue) but I don't own the gun so I assume they're right.I think the main reason was fuddlore has always been pervasive in Britain, hence why .455 stayed in service so long (and the popularity of revolvers). I think a lot of people still believed the "bigger boolit better" meme whilst everyone else was rationally moving to around 9mm.
>>65263406He can play baccarat.
>>65263406Bond was never very heavy on the actual espionage stuff, which is why The Living Daylights stands out a lot, because it has a more realistic emphasis on real spy shenanigans than usual.Also, it's not like it was unheard of until recent years for him to just grab a guard's rifle or SMG in a pinch.>>65263395>but there was fundamentally nothing wrong with the Beretta eitherExcept the part where Bond took off the grip panels, cut down the barrel with a hacksaw for some reason, and apparently had jams with it.
>>65263413I've never read the bond books so I can't comment on the reliability of the Beretta in fictional scenarios. What I can comment on is that Boothroyd was no more qualified than my Grandfather at the time of his writing to Fleming, to discuss firearms (both having worked for ICI producing munitions in the same period).Meanwhile Fleming had actually been involved with intelligence gathering during the war so probably had considerably more idea of what realistically would have been used. The Beretta being a rather logical gun to pick if you consider most of his work was in the Med.>cut down the barrel with a hacksaw for some reasonDid get a giggle I'll admit, one must ask if the extra 1mm of compactness gained was worth it to this daring agent
>>65263524Ian Fleming wasn't a field agent in the same sense that Cristopher Lee was (who actually did field ops during WW2), rather he primarily did work at a desk, and the reason he chose the Beretta was that it was simply the same weapon he had carried on that job when stationed in Spain, where such pistols were the easiest to legally acquire at the time, and he worked at a desk anyway so it wasn't hugely important.Fleming was not a gun person in any serious sense, he just had a bit of minor experience with them. He later owned a Ruger Mk.I for casual target shooting.
>>65262346scrolling down this thread, i was just thinking, if i were a real bond in that time frame, i would use a tok
>>65263551Man Christopher Lee is genuinely so much cooler than Bond.
>>65263629Christopher Lee was probably the closest real life equivalent of James Bond, and he was an exceptionally cool man, but he really didn't do all of the insane shit which James Bond does much of the time.
>>65263604>loud and flashy as fuck>guaranteed to overpenetrate any person>short stubby grip but with full length slide and barrel>unsafe to carry with a loaded chamberI'd go for a Commander 1911 in .38 Super if I had to maximize performance for the era.
>>65263551I didn't mean to suggest he was a field agent. But he did work with field agents (and had a hand in creating a Commando unit) and had actual experience with intelligence gathering unlike Boothroyd who as far as I can tell was just a munitions worker (I assume with an interest in guns alongside but that's no better than a modern day internet talking head).I didn't know Fleming had actually carried said Beretta but that's interesting to learn. I figured he'd probably just come across it as part of a multitude used by various elements of British intelligence at the time.Maybe I'm being too harsh on Boothroyd, I've never read his later books and maybe he did really know his shit (although I doubt it after suggesting a revolver first), he just screams of mid-1900s pseudo-expertise at a glance (something which was often allowed quite prevalently due to poor fact checking of the period thanks to lack of widely available info).>>65263629>>65263744iirc a lot of the characters in James Bond are based on real SOE agents or other adjacent persons at the time, I think there was a female SOE agent who one of the characters was based on but I don't remember her name. Roald Dahl is another relatively famous Brit who did a lot of wartime shenanigans (including a stint with military intel). Ranulph Fiennes would be a good post-war example. But really James Bond is a mix of a whole host of different wartime special operations
>>65263551Christopher Lee was just an intelligence officer, attached to some units but didn't fight himself. The difference is that Fleming was always very up front about what he did and didn't do irl, and Lee deliberately cultivated doubt without outright lying because it enhanced his aura and career.
>>65264003It worked for him.
I think you can only call yourself an adult when you realize the realities of the world we live in. Bond's what they want you to believe it's like, the same way that Rambo is what they want you to believe it's like. Arguing over which gun's best for Bond is same as arguing which gun is best for Rambo. Neither matters because that's not what the job's really like, it's a fantasy and a recruitment advertisement. They need you to think this is what it's like because finding people willing to dedicate themselves to that lifestyle is that hard. And it is dedicating, because they won't pick you if they think you try to leave, pragmatically you cannot leave once you enter, and you do decisions in that life with the government's interests first. Including having relationships, creating families, murdering innocent people, stealing information, etc.Spycraft as theme for entertainment can be interesting in the same way as, say, extreme sports. But in the case of Bond it's not really accurate. It's like talking about the cosmonaut BASE jumper trying to become the first man to BASE jump on moon. Also sex....what am I saying here, this is a board where people think .22 bounces around in the body and scrambles the brain but .25 is stopped by a winter jacket. Fuck it. Sure. James 'Rick James' Bond should carry a pocket desert eagle. No I don't mean the women's gun, I mean just compact desert eagle. 3 in the magazine, one in the chamber, .50 AE, 1.5 inch barrel, and a silencer.
>>65264992It's a pretty reasonable approach to take for someone who acts in film, when you've got the background he has you gotta play into it and exploit it, including some exaggeration.Having a certain kind of aura, presence, charisma, that can do SO much by itself. It's why Arnold Schwarzenegger largely did mediocre acting overall (except Terminator, he really aced that), but he's got the looks, physique, personality, and most importantly, charm, that he's just kind of perfect for playing a certain larger than life action hero type.
>>65265396'the least grounded spy fantasy franchise is not very realistic' is a pretty low bar for adulthood, and I don't think 'they' have much to do with it.
>>65265396>Bond's what they want you to believe it's like, the same way that Rambo is what they want you to believe it's like. Nigger, nobody goddamn thinks this. Do you see the ridiculous shit in those movies?
>>65265396>Neither matters because that's not what the job's really like, it's a fantasy and a recruitment advertisement.No way really? I actually thought James Bond was a perfect reflection of reality and more of a documentary than a silly little movie series to watch for fun!>this is a board where people think .22 bounces around in the bodyI have never seen anyone say that here but also Britain did issue out Walthers in .22lr during the cold war lmao.You sound like a teenager who thinks they're the first person to discover that James Bond is in fact a work of fiction.
>>65262842are those 3 expansion chambers on the suppressor?
