We still haven't figured out how to breach fuckyuge, multi-layered minefields yet without losing everyone involved. Is there a viable solution beyond "don't let them get built up to that point?" Line charges and plows only get the surface-level ones; not the charges buried deep intended to hit the mine removal vehicles.
>>65261200i know you dont want this anwer but the answer is drones. land drones that explode on contact with mines opening safe corridors, still dangerous
>>65261203Also air drones. Turns out it's a lot harder for the front to do its job when the ammo trucks are exploding.
>>65261200Just gain air superiority then kill everything within several miles of the breaching point with counter-battery, same as always. Ukraine just doesn't have the men and equipment, you can't extrapolate this war to combatants with an actual military.
>>65261200Just use POWs
Plants GMO'ed for mine detection. 20 year old technology but somehow deemed unsafe to use.
>>65261200>select a 20km section of the line and concentrate there>but you need to hit it and the 20-50km on the flanks and depth with everything you got>enemy artillery, aviation, and drones are supressed>any reinforcements trying to get to the area are hit with your aviation/drones/arty>this buys enough time for the engineers to do their job and breakthrough We know how, the Ukies just don't have the forces to do so
>>65261203Realistically, maybe, but it's still massively time consuming and labor intensive even with drones. From a post-war perspective it's going to take Ukraine ages to clear that, if they ever fully do. Some combination of drone and sensor would be ideal.
>>65261200>Line charges only get the surface-level onesuse more powerful charges
>>65261200>weSo you haven't noticed. Watch what the major armies and defense contractors have been doing for the last decade. The US corps of engineers has some videos up. The answer is stacks of drones mounted on twin vertical rods which search the area and kamikaze into any mines.
>>65261200>figured out how to breach fuckyuge, multi-layered minefieldsThe solution is the same as always. >Destroy or suppress the enemy overwatching the minefield.>use stealth, surprise, obsuring smoke and other defensive methods to protect friendlies who are breaching the minefield>clear safe paths through the minefield that friendly forces can move through quickly>exploit the enemy with the forces you have passed through the minefieldThe difference with the 40km deep minefields is the time to breach and your forces are movement restricted is greatly increased as is the depth through which you must suppress the enemy. All the fundamentals remain the same, just takes longer and over a deeper area.The extended time and depth means that surprise is difficult to maintain and the enemy has more time to react. Which means your suppression and protective posture needs to be rock solid. You need to deny the enemy's recon the ability to report your breaching force's exact position because the restricted movement makes them more vulnerable to artillery. Modern communications, precision and guided weapons means you can't mass as easily either, which also means multiple breaches across the suppressed front.Ukraine is actually succeeding now because they've attritted the russian forces and supplies to be available to deny Russia the ability to defend against Ukrainian advances. From Crimea to Maripol is being interdicted continually to deny the Russian defenders resupply.
>>65261418Planting mines is similarly energy intensive.They will never be clear of the iron harvest for decadesHundreds will die and be injured in the next 100 years because of this war.
>>65261458Kamikaze is dumb. Droppers work far better for this kind of work.
>>65261200RELEASE ME
>>65261203>nd drones that explode on contac>land mine = $150>land drone = $550Still asymmetric warfare, still a loss.
>>65261546>Hundreds will die and be injured in the next 100 years because of this war.This is the perfect cause for Princess Dian... oh.This is the perfect cause for Princess Mega... oh.This is the perfect cause for Pricess Caroline to promote for the children! That got it.
>>65261458>and kamikaze into any mines.surface level mine clearing is a solved problem already anon
>>65261546Mines are $50/ea, or so. You need hundreds of thousands of them, plus all the equipment and effort to emplace them.The iron harvest will be a little more rapid with flying drones mapping the area with thermal cameras and magnetic detectors. Plus you can have small ground drones with metal detectors scour every inch of terrain like a robot lawnmower. Thermal cameras work because mines have a different heat capacity from the surrounding dirt and will heat and cool at a different rate during sunrise and sunset.
>>65261591>land mine = $150>land drone = $550It is a good thing that ziggers think this math is valid. We are lucky they are so stupid.At the risk of educating an enemy:>$1bn friendly destroyer>$40k enemy antiship missile>$80k friendly interceptor missileDo you launch interceptor missiles to defend your ship or do you hold fire?
>Plant seed = $0.0001
>>65261641it's okay, Russians can't learn. Some of their greatest leaders implemented things that had already happened in Europe like a hundred years beforehand
>>65261619>sends landmine roomba into field to look for landmines>it finds one mine>blows up
>>65261710Advanced math question:>$1bn Friendly Ship>$40k enemy AShM>$80k interceptor missileHow many interceptor missiles do you fire?A) ZeroB) 12,500C) 25,000D) a larger numberE) it is always worth firing an interceptor missile (infinty)
>>65261780E, since you have the option between sacrificing an interceptor to prevent your ship from being destroyed, or losing all of the missiles onboard by allowing the ship to be destroyed.
>>65261591Bruh. If your land drone's purpose is to blow up mines on purpose. A simple roomba-like drone is sufficient. Just need an RC-car with a hammer attached to it, Robot Wars style.
>>65262141Or, better yet, get an RC car, attach a spool of detcord to it and use the RC car to lay the detcord along the route corridor. Then blow it up.
What can be done about the problem that even mine-clearing attachments, which are designed to be somewhat shock-resistant, are quickly destroyed by the power of anti-tank mines?
>>65261200>We still haven't figured out how to breach fuckyuge, multi-layered minefields yet without losing everyone involved. Is there a viable solution beyond "don't let them get built up to that point?"Don't breach minefields under fire with ground forces. These are part of the doctrine, but they're kind of a worst case scenario everyone wants to avoid. Strangely, it was fully expected by Euro-Americans that Ukraine could pull this off, without having much of an airforce.And an airforce is how you handle it. SEAD the air defenses, then hit the units and command structure in the defensive formation. They will either have to retreat eventually or fully capitulate right then and there.Now it's no longer a contested minefield, just a minefield with the enemy far out of artillery range. So you can demine at your leisurely pace.
>>65262168>breaching a minefield is difficult and expensiveYes. You would go around if that option was available, but it is not.>>65262152>RC car to lay the detcordWould need to be more substantial than detcord. A small charge connected to detcord would work.
>>65261415This. The scale of defenses in Zaporizhzhia warranted a division or even corps level operation while the Ukrainians tried to do with at the brigade scale. The attacker generally needs a local 3:1 advantage in forces, so a section of line defended by an enemy battalion needs to be attacked with an entire brigade in order to breach the obstacle and then exploit the breach. The Russian Zaporizhzhian defense lines were manned with more than that and the Ukrainans also didn't concentrate enough fires to suppress Russian counterattacks and reinforcement before they were able to get through the multiple lines.>didn't have the forcesThey had the forces for a breach, but not for the three separate breaches they tried. The NATO advisers wanted the Ukrainians to use the 12 equipped brigades to attack a single, 30km section of front. The Ukrainians instead focused on three separate axes, 50-75km apart. They just didn't have the fires or engineer forces to make three breaches, so it all slammed to a halt after the breaches failed. >>65261200Here's a video of how it works in theory. https://www.dvidshub.net/video/1003555/combined-arms-breach
nuke the minefield so that all mines either detonate or evaporateevery issue can be solved by nukes
>>65262152>>65262254Just use a dropper drone to drop a charge on top of it. It doesn't need to be expendable or even have a shell, you just need a block of explosive, detcord and a elighter attached to the detcord to start it off.
You guys know you can just have little bird choppers fly over the minefield and drop the troops off behind it, right? Use drones to kill enemy armor.
>>65262690The actual mine clearing is more interesting as a discussion topic, because regardless of who has to do it the removal is just one of those things that no one seems to have actually implemented effectively in places where mining was excessive. I can really only think of those rats they use in Asia somewhere (forget) to detect mines, but holy shit is that slow. Have drones done this kind of work before?
>>65261200>use UGVs to explode the mines for you basicaly what the israelis are doing in gaza with cars jury rigged for RC control and explosives.
>>65261415>fiber optic drone snipes your engineer from 50kilometer away while hiding inside a ditch
>>65262724Maybe there's a way to use radar to search for mines. It would have to be well calibrated to tell the difference between a mine and a rock.
>>65261200just walk above the mines
>>65261641>$1bn friendly destroyer>$40k enemy antiship missile>$80k friendly interceptor missileThis is absolutely facile analysis and I'm sick of seeing it. What capability does the destroyer generate per unit of time that is worth a -$40k trade whenever the enemy feels like it? Trading down is never a good thing, even if what you are defending is expensive. If your defence trades down then you have to gain more value from the expensive thing you're protecting than you are losing relative to the enemy, otherwise your enemy is achieving relative gains even if you successfully defend.
>>65262924And your analysis in turn is dumb as the 'trade down' cost can inky be properly defined against what the replacement capacity for each side is. Spending 80k to kill 40k is a fantastic deal if you can replenish for 2 mil but the enemy is limited to 500k.
>>65262871Big stepper
https://youtu.be/azEvfD4C6owjust add some AD and your goodshi
>>65262216>units and command structure in the defensive formationThe command structure is in a bunker somewhere and you don't know where.Now deal with it.
>>65261591The issue being mines are stochastic so you will set 50 mines for each one that needs to be disabled to open the lane, so no, retard, the wallet of the guy laying the mines is getting ass pounded harder than you when your step dad comes home drunk.
>>65261393Nah, don't even have to wait that long. Just get people you don't like or can do without.Even a dummy can detect a mine at least once, twice if you're lucky!
The issue is that Russia did not follow convention on mines. Russia had fuck loads of AT mines. Normally you'd expect people with a fuck load of AT mines to plant AT mines over a wide area, since you have a lot you can plant on a wider area. But Russia didn't. It laid the same amount of AT mines but laid two, three or even four on top of each other in 'pancakes'. So when a mine clearing vehicle hit the mine, it didn't take a single AT mine amount of force, or two, it took three or four which was often enough to break the design. Because the mine clearer was designed to clear AT mines spread out over a wide area, not 3-4 mines put on top of each other over the same amount of space.Therefore the only 'reasonable' way to clear the fields were with painstaking engineering crews/sappers and hope all the artillery was gone (and since Ukraine had no air force, the artillery wasn't all gone) so they got shelled. The other ways to clear them were to use 'snakes' to blow them up, but there weren't enough given and I'm not sure how they performed against 'pancakes'.That's ignoring the AP mines that were boobytrapping pancakes.
>>65261200Minefields are only a useful obstacle when they're actively defended. Otherwise you have infinite time to go in with metal detectors and shit and dig them out one by one or spam 10 billion line charges or something. Mines are only a threat when you have no choice but rush through them because you're getting shot at out in the open
>>65263234>digging out mines one by one means it isn't a useful obstacleWhat is time? That's ignoring that Russian puts AP mines on their AT mines.
>>65263243It's only useful when time is of the essence, and that is when the minefield is defended. A minefield away from the frontline is a non-issue. Hell, you can even build a bridge over it if you want
>>65263274The issue is if you bypass the minefield with a bridge, if you need to fall back, you now have to cross a choke point. Clearing a minefield requires time and expertise. Even if it takes a couple of days that's a couple of days that the enemy can move more reinforcements to where you're going or dig in harder. While causing casualties is a 'primary' function, minefields are fundamentally area denial weapons designed to delay, canalise, or disrupt enemy movement. They buy time for defenders to reposition forces or direct artillery, rather than acting strictly as lethal barriers. Therefore even if they're not 'actively' defended, they're a major issue.
>>65261200You fight fire with fire.Drones drones drones.Send drone with ground penetrating radar to map mines and drop little stick flags at mines position. Than another drone swarm follows scout drone and places demining charges at flags locations . Detonate charges simultaneously, destroy mines.
>>65262950>here's why wasting taxpayers money is a good thing
>>65261203or have drones fly around the clock dropping explosive charges to detonate the mines, the downside is that the enemy is absolutely going to know you want to attack
>>65262279I thought they breeched but couldn't exploit it because the Russians constantly counter attacked, to the point that they were exchanging pretty equal casualties. They weren't able to move past the breech points and were bottled up.
>>65262152Congratulations, you just reinvented the MICLIC with more steps.
It is difficult to transfer the energy of an explosion on the ground into objects buried underground. Furthermore, there have long been fuses that do not react to the instantaneous pressure caused by explosions.
