Could we go over the warfare and equipment as described by Homer and consider their realism and what real life equivalents he wrote about? Figured this is a better board to ask than /lit/ or /his/. Let's start with the fact that the Trojan war would have taken place in the first years of XII BC, but Homer would have written about it around 300 years later. The tactics and gear described by him are supposedly anachronistic, but he did consciously archaise, too. The result is probably something like a bit fictional version of X or IX BC warfare, but hopefully you'll be able to identify the equipment described and tell whether some things happening in the battles could have truly taken place, or if they were pure poetic fabrications.I want to start with a few questions and then move onto quotes describing the gear itself.First of all, did duels between leaders amidst battle really happen? Sometimes it's just someone spotting another leader and them simply moving towards each other to fight. The way it's described, it doesn't seem like they're fighting amongst their troops. There's also the fight between Paris and Menelaos where both armies stop, take off their armor, the leaders make a pact and only then does the duel take place. Could anything like that have ever happened?Secondly, there are constant mentions of people taking the armor off their fallen enemy, and it always happens right after defeating them, right in the midst of battle. I found it difficult to imagine, two huge armies facing each other, one leader falling and the other just putting his weapons away to take the armor off the corpse and then, I'm guessing, putting it onto their chariot. Seems like a very dangerous and strange thing to do right in the middle of a battle on the very frontline between two clashing armies. Is that something that would have happened in history at any point? I always imagined they would have taken the gear off the fallen after the battles had ended, instead.1/5
Another thing that happened many times in the Iliad, is throwing rocks. They weren't using slings or anything like that. Just people picking up huge rocks from the ground and throwing them as projectiles at the enemy. I imagine this is something that would have been heavily dependant on the environment, but is this a common thing in the warfare of the past? If so, when did it stop? Another thing that happens often is attacks piercing right through armor. It seems common even, that someone would stab another right in the armor, and the spear would just go through it. There are even many times where spears pierce right through the shields as well. I get that it's "just" bronze and some hides, but I wonder if this is actually something that could frequently happen, or if it was just meant to show the incredible strength of the heroes present in the war. 2/5
Yet another thing that I've found unusual is that there are no real tactics in any of the battles. Agamemnon doesn't really give orders during the battles. It seems more like every single leader is just on their own only rallying their men when morale is low every now and then and at most telling them to go somewhere where they see another leader is having trouble. But there is no flanking, there are no different units based on their equipment or anything like that. Just two gigantic armies clashing straight with each other for a hours. Did Homer just not want to bother with descriptions of battle tactics, or would that really have been the case in those times? Keep in mind that there were supposedly 100.000 Achaean warriors, almost 1200 ships, and in the second book most leaders seemed to have brought about 40 each or so, so by rough estimation the Achean army would have been something like 30 different groups from different regions with their own leaders. I can imagine that giving orders to such a massive army during a battle would have been difficult for Agamemnon. And it would have been double as difficult for the Trojans, as they supposedly had groups speaking in completely foreign languages that could not understand one another.Finally - horses. Horse riding is mentioned in Illiad, and Odysseus and Diomedes even ride horses after their nightly assault, and yet during the battles horses are only ever used in chariots. And even then, fighting from chariots, while it does happen, seems to be generally rare, and the chariots tend to just be used to get the heroes in and out of battle, while most of the fighting just happens on foot. Maybe it's something obvious, but if people could ride horses, why weren't they used like that in combat? And what changed that they eventually started to be used?3/5
Now let me drop some quotes with equipment descriptions. They're pretty vague, but it would be cool if you could pinpoint the real life counterparts of the items used in the war as described by Homer. >His mighty limbs in radiant armour dress’d,>And first he cased his manly legs around>In shining greaves with silver buckles bound;>The beaming cuirass next adorn’d his breast,>The same which once king Cinyras possess’d:>(The fame of Greece and her assembled host>Had reach’d that monarch on the Cyprian coast;>’Twas then, the friendship of the chief to gain,>This glorious gift he sent, nor sent in vain:)>Ten rows of azure steel the work infold,>Twice ten of tin, and twelve of ductile gold;>Three glittering dragons to the gorget rise,>Whose imitated scales against the skies>Reflected various light, and arching bow’d,>Like colour’d rainbows o’er a showery cloud>(Jove’s wondrous bow, of three celestial dies,>Placed as a sign to man amidst the skies).>A radiant baldric, o’er his shoulder tied,>Sustain’d the sword that glitter’d at his side:>Gold was the hilt, a silver sheath encased>The shining blade, and golden hangers graced.>His buckler’s mighty orb was next display’d,>That round the warrior cast a dreadful shade;>Ten zones of brass its ample brim surround,>And twice ten bosses the bright convex crown’d:>Tremendous Gorgon frown’d upon its field,>And circling terrors fill’d the expressive shield:>Within its concave hung a silver thong,>On which a mimic serpent creeps along,>His azure length in easy waves extends,>Till in three heads the embroider’d monster ends.>Last o’er his brows his fourfold helm he placed,>With nodding horse-hair formidably graced;>And in his hands two steely javelins wields,>That blaze to heaven, and lighten all the fields. 4/5 or more actually
>>65263100>He pierced the centre of his sounding shield:>But Meges, Phyleus’ ample breastplate wore,>(Well-known in fight on Sellè’s winding shore;>For king Euphetes gave the golden mail,>Compact, and firm with many a jointed scale)>Just where his belt with golden buckles join’d,>Where linen folds the double corslet lined,>She turn’d the shaft, which, hissing from >above,>Pass’d the broad belt, and through the corslet drove;>The folds it pierced, the plaited linen tore,>Through six bull-hides the furious weapon drove,>Till in the seventh it fix'd>Atrides first discharged the missive spear;>The Trojan stoop’d, the javelin pass’d in air.>Then near the corslet, at the monarch’s heart,>With all his strength, the youth directs his dart:>But the broad belt, with plates of silver bound,>The point rebated, and repell’d the wound.>He cased his limbs in brass; and first around>His manly legs, with silver buckles bound>The clasping greaves; then to his breast applies>The flaming cuirass of a thousand dyes;>Emblazed with studs of gold his falchion shone>In the rich belt, as in a starry zone:>Achilles’ shield his ample shoulders spread,>Achilles’ helmet nodded o’er his head:>Adorn’d in all his terrible array,>Struck where the crossing belts unite behind,>And golden rings the double back-plate join’d>Forth through the navel burst the thrilling steel;>And on his knees with piercing shrieks he fell;>(Seized by the crest) the unhappy warrior drew;>Struggling he followed, while the embroider’d thong>That tied his helmet, dragg’d the chief along.>Then had his ruin crown’d Atrides’ joy,>But Venus trembled for the prince of Troy:>Unseen she came, and burst the golden band;>And left an empty helmet in his hand.>The casque, enraged, amidst the Greeks he threw;>His towery helmet, black with shading plumes.>First Damasus, by Polypœtes’ steel,>Pierced through his helmet’s brazen visor, fell;5/6, my bad
>Full at the Trojan’s head he urged his lance,>Where the high plumes above the helmet dance,>Doom’d by great Ajax’ vengeful lance to bleed:>It cleft the helmet’s brazen cheeks in twain;>The shatter’d crest and horse-hair strow the plain:>His polish’d bow with hasty rashness seized.>’Twas form’d of horn, and smooth’d with artful toil:>A mountain goat resign’d the shining spoil.>Who pierced long since beneath his arrows bled;>The stately quarry on the cliffs lay dead,>And sixteen palms his brow’s large honours spread:>The workmen join’d, and shaped the bended horns,>And beaten gold each taper point adorns.>A massy spear he bore of mighty strength,>Of full ten cubits was the lance’s length;>The point was brass, refulgent to behold,>Fix’d to the wood with circling rings of gold:I took the quotes from here:https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/6130/pg6130-images.html6/6
>>65263108>spear scrotesso you can teabag your enemy while you poke them, efficient
The trojar war was the apocryphal origin story of Greece, so the historical accuracy was probably nill.At this time populations were low across most of the world and city states were often more like medieval villages, so while armies could be massed that mass couldn't be sustained, this is why you see the recurring feature of armies agreeing to fight in a specific place and time. It was to put an end to both sides raiding each other, which nobody could prevent.Armour and weapons were extremely costly and simply owning one half qualified you to be a soldier, as there wasn't really a professional army, again, like the middle ages these were levvy armies so simply owning a weapon could be the start of your sons career as a knight. So looting armor and weapons was one of the only rewards for participating in a battle.And this in turn led to troops wanting to kill an enemy in a duel, rather then in a melee, to ensure they gout to keep the armor so before a battle it was very common for challenges to be issued, either because they were private quarrels, for glory, or to ensure to victor got to keep their armor and nobody died an ignominious death from an arrow.>>65263094This was a feature of sieges, and because the weight of hoplites armor precluded them from using bows. So if you were standing there, and hadn't invented the plumbata (see: why the plumbata existed) you might as well throw rocks at the enemy.Another factor of this is that spears were expensive, and could be thrown back. so to preserve them, stones were thrown.
>>65263087You'll notice in the illiad it's clearly a composite story based on the equipment. Ajax the greater his gear is wildly anachronistic, in the same story where meteorite iron is a grand prize. There is clear bleed though from the much older seven against the thebes story even if that is sort of addressed in narrative with the epiogone
>>65263097Due to limited literacy, lack of any kind of proper signaling, linguistic differences and regional rivalries troops fought under the banner of their local leader- again exactly like the middle ages.The detailed description of objects is a feature of Homeric works that I never understood, I've heard that it had more to do with the hexaminer, the equivalent of a rapper saying "yo". The only way to remember anything or to relate anything was to make it into this monotinous poem so people could remember it, like most hymns
>>65263087I accidentally read the subject as "Homoerotic warfare and equipment" and everything still made perfect sense.
>>65263094>They weren't using slings or anything like that. Just people picking up huge rocks from the ground and throwing them as projectiles at the enemy.Mount and Blade looters fights flashback.
>>65263087>did duels between leaders amidst battle really happen?i've heard yes, as a relic of very very primitive warfare. imagine basically a rioting mob squaring up against another mob with no group-fighting experience. some will naturally skirmish, some will hide in the back, and some will attempt to engage in the center. your center guys will probably be well equipped and ambitious people trying to win social standing, and seeing your elite dudes get rolled will probably make you want to rout. so yes most likely. Homer calls it the old way of fighting because once the concept of training and drilling a unit comes about these early behaviors break against a phalanx
>>65263094>There are even many times where spears pierce right through the shields as welli dont remember if the illiad was technically bronze or early iron age, i know achillies has an iron dagger but that might be anachronistic. Either way, "shield" is a broad term. A hoplon was "made like a ship's hull" of overlapping planks, or turned from a single solid piece of wood. they were heavy and solid and would stop a lot. but not all shields were hoplons. many might be better thought of as screens, essentially a wickerwork basket lid with or without some fabric, used to block thrown rocks or darts. this is what the persians rolled up with at the battle of marathon, and those skirmishers paid the price bitterly for having lighter shields and shorter spears.
>>65263276>i dont remember if the illiad was technically bronze or early iron ageI recall swords in general being iron. while spears and armour were bronze. But I feel like there might be some inaccuracies in the translations, too. For example the source I used for the quotes ITT (not the version I read originally) had multiple mentions of steel, which frankly seems out of place.The shields differed, and only some were described, but from what I gathered they were multiple layers of hardened hides and/or bronze laid out over some bronze base. For example Ajax had 7 hide layers and one bronze, I remember someone else having 4 hide layers, and Achilles' shield made later on was I think 3 bronze layers and 2 gold or something like that. The layers would be smaller and smaller the closer to the centre they were, so the shields were very thick at the grip and thinner (since fewer layers reached that far) towards the edges.
>>65263087>First of all, did duels between leaders amidst battle really happen?Yes. When we think of ancient warfare we think of phalanxes and blocks but that wasn't the practice at this time. If you look back at even older warfare between tribes it's often a contest of champions with very few dead, and although these weren't spear-chucking savages that tradition was still in play. The reason you're having a hard time imagining it is because>Secondly, there are constant mentions of people taking the armor off their fallen enemy, and it always happens right after defeating them, right in the midst of battle. There weren't frontlines as we imagine them today or even as described by later warfare. That requires too much training and coordination that wasn't done at this time. It was a game of two armies staring at each other, launching skirmishes in smaller groups led by a charismatic leader (who later became mythical, I suspect) which either dealt casualties and advanced or took casualties and retreated. The richest guys had chariots they could skirmish with with greater safety. If these duels happened (I'm not saying they're all real) it was two leaders disembarking in the no mans land between armies and fighting each other with their chariot dudes as backup. >>65263094>other thing that happened many times in the Iliad, is throwing rocksThis is probably Homer exaggerating and describing slings, yes.
>>65263344>There weren't frontlines as we imagine them today>two armies staring at each other, launching skirmishes in smaller groups led by a charismatic leaderYeah, it really sounds like that's what was going on there. It fits the combat descriptions. It just sounds so different from my image of battles that it's hard to imagine. When did combat get more organized then? Is that why the phalanx was so effective?>>65263344>This is probably Homer exaggerating and describing slings, yesIt's definitely about literally picking up huge rocks from the ground and throwing them, not about using a sling. Hektor even crushes the Achean gate with a huge rock like that, as depicted in that pic >>65263087Homer even describes those evens like "two men alive today wouldn't be able to lift that rock, yet he lifted it easily" or so. The question is, I suppose, whether armies throwing rocks at each other was something that commonly occured, or if he wrote things like that specifically to show off the strength of heroes.
>>65263108>>His polish’d bow with hasty rashness seized.>>’Twas form’d of horn, and smooth’d with artful toil:>>A mountain goat resign’d the shining spoil.>>Who pierced long since beneath his arrows bled;>>The stately quarry on the cliffs lay dead,>>And sixteen palms his brow’s large honours spread:>>The workmen join’d, and shaped the bended horns,>>And beaten gold each taper point adorns.This one is the weirdest to me. Could a bow made from a mountain goat's horns even work? They couldn't bend like wood does.
>>65263097>HorsesHorses were only okay for riding at this point, and trained riding horses were a luxury. But for combat among screaming men? Nope. Even in the medieval period a war horse was considered notable if it would partake in a charge after only being in a single battle previously, as most would refuse battle after surviving only one, and many would refuse even after a single charge. Most nobles brought many horses of different types for this reason. In the age of troy, A team of horses pulling a couple men was actually a more practical prospect for war. Chariots and carts at this time were like sports cars for the rich and in battle were more often used to ferry a combatant into and out of a fight like a personal APC of sorts. Elite soldiers were often simply those who could afford the best equipment because that mattered a lot, not necessarily the best fighters.
>>65263386horn is used in traditional bow making the world over. It’s only part of the construction, usually the compression side of the bow.https://youtu.be/UgEp4ZAPbs0
>>65263417To add to this, this is part of the reason why the medieval muslim nobles often went to war on mares instead of stallions. While not nearly as outright athletic as stallions, Mares were more reliable in combat and there are notable stories very protective mares keeping enemy soldiers at a distance after her rider had been wounded. The tradeoff is they seldom fielded properly heavy cavalry during the period. They also weaponized them by sending mares in heat without riders towards enemy lines, knowing the enemy were riding stallions, and this would make the enemy’s cavalry less reliable.
>>65263297Fair enough. I dont have any sources, just vague memories of when i looked this stuff up years ago. I remember a quote (maybe a philosopher) describing spartan shields as turned like bowls on a giant lathe, and i remember someone saying the wooden slats thing. I know there were lots of metal bosses but i dont know of any relic shields that were fully or even partially composed of metal sheets, just because its crazy heavy to do that in bronze. As for hide its a good way to coat a shield and hold all the wooden bits in tension like a drum skin, im not sure if that's why it was done or not though. From personal experience just fucking around i dont think you could pierce even a few mm of wood when it can swing and swivel with stabbing, at least not modern plywood, but shields werent nesessarily all made of the same woods. Something lighter like bamboo wouldnt stop shit even layered quite thick, and if you're poor you might not invest in something slow to work. Or you might just have weak spots from joins or thin spots. Its hard to say, and id love to research and test it more one day
>>65263472https://www.academia.edu/18007252/Establishing_the_combat_effectiveness_of_the_Greek_hoplite_shield
>>65263366>When did combat get more organized then? Is that why the phalanx was so effective?Nta but it varies by area. That combat style was popular in early rome before the republic when the greeks were well into their phalanxesSpeaking of, the phalanx was effective for many reasons>warfare was based on seasonal raiding, so you would have battles in predictable times and places. This makes formal infantry armies engaging symmetrically very common>your dudes will naturally bunch up, and now bunching for saftey also gives the unit mass and mutual defence>standardized equipment was expected and sometimes provided by the state, meaning lines wouldnt break down at weak points>the lines collapse at the wings, so a phalanx lets you run a longer more stable line, making it easier to encircle or block skirmishers>heavy infantry shield wall is a highly effective way to block skirmishers and projectiles>heavy infantry shield wall is highly effective at just mowing down light infantry that tries to hold ground>heavy infantry shield wall means you can bunch up and just push the other guys over, making them highly stabbable>if you match up head to head it will only take a few losses for the enemy side to falter, so most people can just drop their shields and bail, keeping casualties low>spears are cheap and overlap their reach, so you can fish for criticals with more guys at once (and noone will want to charge you). You can see more of how it works from what it evolved into. The macedonian phalanx using super long spears and longer formations, and roman units throwing javelins to force enemies to drop their shields then closing inside the spears where a sword has more controlThis stays standard until large central states break down at the fall of the roman empire, making huge uniform armies unviable. society restructures around now independent villas and their slaves who switched from cash crops to subsistence farming, becoming dark age pesants and manor lords
>>65263486Cool, thanks!
>>65263087>Could anything like that have ever happened?I'm going to say yes, and could happen even today. I'm basing this purely on being a man who knows boys.
>>65263445>the reason why the medieval muslim nobles often went to war on mares instead of stallionsIs because a Mare is generally a quiet animal and this allowed the muslims to sneak away instead of fighting or use ambush tactics.A Stallion is a noisy horse when compared to a Mare, but smells better than the muslim. For obvious reasons a Gelding is the superior horse for cavalry combat.
>>65263087>First of all, did duels between leaders amidst battle really happen? Sometimes it's just someone spotting another leader and them simply moving towards each other to fightAs recently as the 1300s, such an encounter occurred between Robert the Bruce and Sir Henry de Bohun during the Battle of Bannockburn.Sir Henry spotted Robert out in the field and charged him, only to be cut down in single combat when Robert cleaved through his helmet with his axe, crushing his skull.
>>65263204>Strength: 30>Power Throw: 10>Throwing: 400>Equipment: Peasant Dress, 4x Stones (kicks only for melee)>Inventory: 3x Butter, 27x Stones"Now I am become Death, destroyer of worlds"
>>65263087It's basically the Star Wars* of its time. A mishmash of genres, tropes and anachoristic weapons and tactics. Treat it as low to middle fantasy instead of history.*Seriously. Star Wars is cowboy western, samurai, WW2 Battle of Britain x Pacific War. People fight with swords while starships can blow up cities and planets.
>>65265501>As recently as the 1300sSo how does that happen, do they just break the ranks and have nobody follow them to fight each other, or did that mean that both of their units clashed and they fought within that clash?
