In the medieval period was the pitchfork a decent weapon for peasant levies?
>>65281239The Monster fears the pitching fork and torchlight.
>>65281239>puckee thread
Better to haft your scythe so that it's parallel to the wood, giving you a spear thing.
>>65281239No, not really. Better than nothing but dipshit peasants who couldn't even afford a proper weapon were not what the average feudal lord wanted to bring along with them, though there's a lot of types of campaigns and battles of the sort that means you might see it rarely here and there on the battlefield.More likely, you see it when you're assaulting a civilian area.
>>65281239No. If you can't even get a pole flail, what are you even doing?
>>65281239I believe threshing flails were the gold standard of medieval farming tools being used as weapons.They're dirt cheap and easy to make (literally two pieces of wood with a hinge) and will flatten a moderately armoured opponent if the user gets a decent swing with it.
I certainly wouldn't want to get stabbed by one.
>>65281272Not even remotely the case, scythe blades are thin and fragile, they are one of the least weaponizable farm implements.A pitchfork is a pretty terrible weapon, but it could at least work as a shitty trident for a bit.>>65281398I don't want to be shot with a .177 caliber air pellet rifle either, but they're hardly good weapons for anything that isn't a rodent.
I think clubs, woodaxes and maybe pickaxes if they are miners, make more sense. Not that it is going to help much against properly trained armored troops anyway.
>>65281239nearly all peasants carried some dagger or even eating knife, which most of them would sooner use for self defense or things like robbery>but muh rangethey did not go to war with farming tools.
>>65281239What you imagine in your head as a Peasant Levy barely existed.
>>65281239Nah, medieval peasants usually had wooden pitchforks instead of metal ones, so it would be plain better just sharpen a stick and harden the tip in fire than use wooden pitchfork as a weapon.And if they did have metal pitchforks then the best would to separate the spikes and strap each metal spike into wooden pole to have four spears instead of one shitty trident.
>>65281239Flails were much better. Every peasant knew how to handle one and hits hard.
>>65281239Yes but only against other non-armoured people. Whatever is sharp and pointy or blunt and heavy will kill someone pretty well.To kill your RP will a pitchfork go through a medieval peasant? Will they go through a modern man in modern clothing?Anyway for me its>Pitchfork>Wooden truncheon tucked in between my waist and belt>Cooking knife attached to my belt
>>65281239Yes. Bauerkriege and British Farmer Upraising(the most forgotten story about British Farmers taking London Tower in 2 days and the group of peasants delivering a message by literally shitting on the kings table when he and his court was watching them at doing it.) in 16-17 centuries proved that enraged 5 meter long forks, battle skythes and heavy lead hammers can stop every knight.
>>65281239>pitchfork
>>65281482There are fatalities from 4.5mm air rifles.
>>65281239>>65282436Why so little pitching prongs? Why such weak forks?
A few things come to mind. First is the question of how medieval pitchforks (in any given region) were actually shaped and made? As suggested by >>65282436 we can't take things like metal tines for granted. And if the modern ones I've held are any clue then, well, they're rather short and heavy.Second, what cases do we have of peasant levies or the like actually doing well? There's the Swiss on occasion, but that tends to mean pike and/or halberd. We have the Battle of the Golden Spurs, generally associated with the militia's use of the goedendag, which is a fully purpose built weapon. The Hussites... seem to have based their success mostly on mobile fortifications and firepower. Here in Sweden peasant levies did well at times, but a full Swedish peasant kit can mean helmet, breastplate, sword, and a crossbow or polearm. (The coat of arms for the region of Dalarna is a pair of crossed crossbow bolts due to the influence the regions peasants had at Swedish politics at times). Off the top of my head I can't think of any case where the pitchfork is to have seen much use, or performed well.So to try and guess... probably not all that good. It really seems more like a thing for an impromptu mob than a proper levy really.>>65282520There are a lot of things that can and do kill but which are nevertheless not very practical in a fight. Throwing in irritated beaver at someone, waiting for old age to do its thing... neither comes across as a very appealing option should someone be coming at you with a battleaxe and ill intentions.
>>65282520Fucking and? That's kind of my goddamn point, just because it's dangerous doesn't mean it's practical.President Calvin Coolidge's son got a blister from wearing a pair of tennis shoes too small for him for a tennis match, and then got an infection and died from that, and that's certainly a fate I'd like to avoid too, but that obviously doesn't make undersized tennis shoes a practical weapon.That's the same reason I don't want to be shot with a fucking .177 caliber pellet rifle, not only will that fucking hurt, that could be a pretty nasty injury after all, but the chances of that killing me in a second is infinitesimal next to a single round of M193 Ball or M80 Ball to my chest cavity, which is why those are used as weapons of war instead.Getting attacked with a pitchfork isn't going to suck nearly as much as being attacked with a real polearm.
>>65281239Up until the 19th century the majority of pitchforks were made out of wood. So you tell me. Peasants that were eligible for a ban of arms were in most cases also rather well off free men and thus were even required to maintain a number of armor and weapons.>>65281482War scythes existed but only became common around the 16th century. Even then, depending on the make, they were either similar to stout billhooks, remounted agricultural scythe blades or dedicated weapons of war. Pic rel is a dedicated war scythe that was used by the defenders during the Second Ottoman Siege of Vienna. >>65282427The Bauernhaufen of the German Peasants War were sometimes led by experienced mercenary commanders and the peasants fought as pike/billmen. Some even had artillery. The remounted agricultural scythe is just a powerful symbol for the "peasant at arms" that got perpetuated by romanticist painters.
>>65283002>The remounted agricultural scythe is just a powerful symbol for the "peasant at arms" that got perpetuated by romanticist painters.what about kosynierzy
Im pretty sure the whole "peasants with their pitchforks" is more symbolism than realitypeasants then and now fuck shit up without engaging in open battle, but the image of angry farmers with pitchforks not doing their peasant roles gets that message across better
>>65283032They existed but never were the majority of the forces of the various polish uprising forces.
>>65283050they weren't and i think they were only a majority in a singular regiment but they still had multiple major battle achievements (although uprisings) with actual scythes (forma el na sztorc), before they became kosyniers in name only
>>65283055I don't know that much detail about the polish uprisings so which battlefield achievements do you mean? And how many of those battlefield achievements came down soley to the war scythe and not because russian and/or prussian forces were outmaneuvered by the poles?
>>65283041>"peasants with their pitchforks" is more symbolism than realitySymbolic of the general peasent riot trope and "mob rules" event. More useful when a witch turns you into a newt, as long as you get better.
I would have loved being a knight, you could literally do anything to peasants as long as you were beyond the eyesight of whatever lord was in charge.
>>65283082Kosciuszko uprising, specifically the battle of Raclawicethought I was writing about these but I think you're better off checking the polish wikipedia and translating, since ultimately I have to kinda agree with you - the battle wasn't won because the scythe was somehow an op weapon, but it was serviceable enough for kosynierzy to win the battle by being able to assault russian artillery before they could get reinforced (also a funny note about how the peasants didnt know russian so they had no idea the russians were surrendering lmao)so I think you are right, it was very much outmaneuvering and if they had pikes they'd be just as effective, so I guess, while the weapon WAS serviceable enough to not be worthless, majority of its value very much came from the 'propaganda' part - although it wasn't some post-fact hindsight thing to romanticize the plebs, but actively a thing as it was happening and utilized
>>65283147>as long as you were beyond the eyesight of whatever lord was in chargeAnd this lord has no object permeance and thus will never suss you out or hear anything about it, is that your logic? Feudal society could be very unfair, but knights were generally also expected to NOT absolutely nigg the fuck out like it's the Congo, as that'll cause VERY bothersome civil unrest. They didn't have millions of muslims back then, they weren't numb to that shit yet, people are actually gonna go ape, which is going to be an economic and diplomatic burden on said lord, who will ream out your eminently replaceable asshole if he finds out it's your fault.
>>65283147I can't imagine manorial lords would take kindly to anybody fucking their fedual powerbase up too much.>Why hasn't Athelric shown up with his oxen today? His services are fucking due!>Well m'Lord Sir Ballsack raped his daughter and beat him in his own cottage so he's layed up with a broke arm, m'Lord.>Hmm, this isn't ideal but we must let it go this time.>A few moments(days) later...>Why have no ploughmen and oxen shown up today? Where are the men to dig out the drains? My fucking fields need ploughing.>m'Lord, Sir Ballsack...>ASSEMBLE MY HOUSEHOLD AND RUN THAT CUNT OUT. But not before you take his purse as recompense. Fuck with my system, will he?
>>65283183>battle of RaclawiceI did look up and translated the polish wiki page and here the actions of the scythe-/pikemen were always described as being in support to the attacks of the regular musketeers and artillery.>>65283147Knights weren't above the law, Anon and peasants could complain towards their lord about the "roguish" knight. On that note: in my region was a robber knight who raided some trade routes. The local lord set out with a party of his own and captured said robber knight. He was hanged on a tree and his manor was slighted. The borough of the city, where those events took place, is still called Hanging-Tree.
>>65283002That was mostly the case, actually; these angry bands of peasants and lowly commoners were mostly always led by mercenaries or disgruntled lords who weren't happy with their king, or they were doing it because they get to pillage and loot rivals' lands As somebody needs to organise these bands, and it ain't O'Joe the cabbage farmer
>>65283147Are you a serial killer?
>>65282520There were people that drowned in a puddle.
>>65283263Oh, brave Sir Ballsack, brave Sir Ballsack, brave Sir Ballsack!
>>65283183Related to the topic of war scythes; here a video about their usage during the Monmouth Rebellion of 1685: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVh6GXH97U8For a tl;dr>war scythes were again used due to a lack of proper arms>even then they were only used by a minority of the armed forces>witnesses account to their grave potential in killing and wounding>despite this the need for proper arms was always emphasised>pictures that focus on the scythe are from the 19th and 20th century>>65283452Well in the German Peasants War the two experienced field commanders of the peasants were Götz von Berlichingen (the knight with the iron hand) and Florian Geyer. Berlichingen was forced by the peasants to lead them and at times was more a prisoner of them. After the war he got accused due to his leading role but managed to talk his way out of it as he emphasized that he only took on the leading role in order to prevent wanton raiding by the peasants. Geyer on the other hand sympathised with the peasants as he as well got fucked over by the clergy and higher nobility in his youth. His goal was a wholesale reform of religion and the estates within the HRE that respected the common customs of the peasants and the lower nobility. He trained and led the famous Schwarze Haufen (Black Band) - their most impressive achievement being conducting a fighting retreat in good order after the majority of the peasant army was beaten by the troops of the Princes at the Battle of Giebelstadt in 1525. Geyer got later killed by his brother in law due to some monetary issues before the Peasants War found its end.
>>65281239no, they used spears, bills or war flails insteadsee >>65282436 this is what a medieval pitchfork looked like
>>65283147well the thing is you would almost certainly be a peasant and not a knight
>>65283002>War scythes existed but only became common around the 16th centurySure, but those would be actually designed and crafted weapons, or at least reasonably adapted into weapons, making them no longer suitable for reaping grass or crops.A much better improvised weapon would be the good old axe, because those were everywhere, and you can actually wield a normal tool axe or hatchet as a weapon and it'll work pretty damn well on an unarmored target, even if it's not going to be anywhere near as practical, light, or fast, as proper war axes with their longer shafts, and light and narrow bills.
>>65281239anything that lets you poke holes in guys from far away is top tier
>>65283806nta but what you said is not really true, a tool axe sucks as a weapon, a hatchet can be ok but not a proper woodcutting axe
>>65283849>a tool axe sucks as a weaponAs a combat weapon? Yeah, it's pretty awful, but as a murder weapon it can work pretty well, which is how axe murders happen.Meanwhile, scythe murders are preciously rare.
>>65281482Pitchforks are not a terrible weapon, my "break him in" years at work saw that as my main tool in civil engineering and forest stuff. I could fucking put one between your eyes at 20 yards, every time and that's before I start stabbing.Now consider; that was my job but it's their tool for surviving. Hay and brush are a huge part of agrarian labor.
>>65282338*on the front line
>>65283912Why were you throwing pitchforks?
>>65283002Yes most pitchforks were made of wood. In some European countries they still do this, it´s done by soaking a branch in water and then forming the end branches into a fork. There are also different grades of scythes. Grass/hay scythes are thin and need constant sharpening but brush scythes are a lot stouter and sharper because they're meant for chopping shrubs and saplings. I could easily imagine a brush scythe repurposed into a military weapon.
>>65283948
A scythe on a stick is just a falx
>>65282619They will melt the metal tines and turn them into blades for spears. They didn't actually use unmodified pitchforks.
>>65281239No, it wouldn't really. Besides, peasants that could be called to serve in a levy or militia were required by law to have at least a spear and a shield. In later medieval times it was not uncommon for peasant levies to be reasonably well equipped, mainly with polearms and crossbows, guns became pretty common in the 15th century too.
>>65282533Notice the barbs? That is for hunting frogs or fish, not pitching hay.
>>65281239>yukee pukee now polluting /k/Season thread with sage
>>65283898>Meanwhile, scythe murders are preciously rare.Who the fuck has a scythe laying around?If you did find one in the shed of the cabin that you and your college friends hired for the summer, none of you would even know how to swing it.
>>65283948>Why were you throwing pitchforks?You were never a farm boy and it shows.Seriously, if you're working with a pitchfork all day, are you not going to test its effectiveness as a weapon?Or train in using it as one while goofing off at work?
>>65283989>it´s done by soaking a branch in water and then forming the end branches into a fork.Split the end and insert wedges, also works. You can do it with bamboo too.Pitchforks literally grow on trees.
>>65286522>You were never a farm boy and it shows.>Seriously, if you're working with a pitchfork all day, are you not going to test its effectiveness as a weapon?I was going to call you out but....memories I forgot surfaced, of us competing on who could throw pitchforks the farthest and still get them to stick into the ground.
If you owned an iron pitchfork you likely could afford at least a spear or a billhook, which was an actually utilitarian piece of gear that can be used in a civil context.
>>65283147Hedge Knights were often hanged for acting like total degens to useful members of society.
>>65281239No. People who didn't own weapons weren't going to war, anon. Levies were for people who had enough property to meet certain requirements (they would routinely fail to do so and get fined). A man too poor to own a spear or bow would have little motivation to fight, be a huge liability if he actually DID fight, is STILL a net loss to your labor pool if he dies....and consumes just as much food and has the same idea of spreading disease on the march. People like that will fight if you're actively burning their village down, but that's about it. If you're trying to raise a bunch of common infantry, you get them from town militias, wealthier peasants who can afford tolerable equipment, volunteers, and you hire mercenaries if any are available .
>>65286587Anon gets it. Your average pleb in an apartment is not going to be a Hoplite or man at arms, but the biggest farms in a Lord's plot may have enough excess sons and extra bumper crops to produce some groups of men at arms for their local lord, which then all would get pooled into larger armies of their Lord's Lord. Once you get into early medieval citizenship you're looking at the middle class to be your pool of soldiers. It wasn't until massive nation states had standardized national armies that the poorest got to go to war.
>>65283912They're still fucking awful weapons, anon. Compared to virtually any spear they're short, heavy, poorly balanced, and utterly incapable of being used against armor.
>>65286600Honestly it's annoying how we're STILL seeing retarded Victorian propaganda distort peoples perception of the time period, almost entirely because British people simply can't stop being fucking retards. >The commoners don't want to die in the trenches over shit that has nothing to do with them >We'll just tell those retards it's been the common man's job to die since the anglo Saxon days, muh fyrd. They'll literally do anything if we tell them it's tradition Cue a million dead Brits and a century of MUH PEASANT LEVIES when even the fucking anglo Saxons were only sending the well off to war, because who the fuck else deserves that responsibility?
>>65281389youve been playing too much halfsword
>>65283147What causes this sort of perverse delusion and longing?
>>65286810>What causes this sort of perverse delusion and longing?It's called being a middleschool edgelord.They'll grow out of most of it once they get laid and the rest when they enter the adult world.
>>65281265?
>>65281239fucking puckee is on /k/ now too?
