Ultimately why was Vietnam able to defeat the French, Americans, Chinese, and Cambodians within a span of decades? What gave them their relative military prowess?
>>65292137France and America gave up because of the political pressure at home, Cambodia because the Khmer Rouge was ineffective against people who actually shot back, and China because, well China.
>>65292137the jungle
>>65292137>dig hole>winit really is that easy
>posted it again
>>65292137The chinks literally took the largest islands from the SCS from the Viets
>>65292137That's a Filipino
>>65292218So they're a land power, not a naval one. Fact is that China still couldn't take an inch of the northern border.
>>65292218China's war goal was to defend their puppet Pol Pot from Vietnam, which they failed to do. The few worthless islands they got were just to save face after their armies failed to make any progress and instead created a rival in Indochina that cozied up to the US. This is also why turdies try to frame the US's war in Vietnam as a failure when it lead to the sino-soviet split and drained both China and the USSR economically of aid.
>>65292137France and America had similar plans for Vietnam. Puppet or colonial status quo and thought just killing more of them would make them break. Plus France had a massive commie problem in the 50s and 60s. Just look at Dien Bien Phu for just how dumb France was for overestimating the vietshttps://youtu.be/_S2ejfZ3kjE?is=XBhEvuZ54C8XNmac
>>65292951Absolutely astonishing that (North) Vietnam had a long and brutal 20 year war with the Americans, and then because of China, they still decide "Actually, maybe the Americans weren't THAT bad."
>>65292137They definitely did not win. They continued to exist, as poorer routinely beaten farmers (EXCEPT CHING CHONG CHINEE). Vietnam lost catastrophic amounts of history and a LOT of men for one.
>>65292184Bet you're queen of the queers posting that pic all the time.
>>65293054Fighting off multiple superpowers and maintaining your sovereignty while the invaders all give up and leave is a weird way of saying they didnt win. You arent actually one of those retards that thinks you need to capture a capital building to win a war, right?
>>65293054LMAO it's always hilarious to see this cope for mutts.>w-we spent billions, l-lost thousands of men over a d-decade for nothing despite having 10 t-times the military and economic power of the enemy but we t-totally won I swear !Losses are irrelevant, only strategic objectives matter. The goal of the Vietnam war was to keep the country from falling to the communists. It failed. End of story. Any argument over tactical successes or losses is cope.
>>65293054Vietnam is an independent capitalist country today, while the US is struggling under the weight of all the immigration and fraud our own communists won't let Trump rescue us from. I'd say Vietnam won.
>>65292137>What gave them their relative military prowess?The willingness to lose enough men and civilians for long enough for your opponent to essentially get bored and leave isn't what I'd consider "prowess", at least not for fighting.
The French didn't have enough dog in them to want to fight, and were exhausted by the attention they had to focus on. The Americans did not have the dog in them for that fight and were exhausted by the distractions facing them. The Chinese were in the aftermath of Mao's fuckups in the 2nd half of his reign, Cambodians were run by the biggest retards in the 20th century.This doesn't take away from the fact that the Vietnamese are tenacious, motivated and hard niggas. They won and deserve recognition for every W, and no matter the coulda woulda shoulda it was a win no matter how we Americans might spin it. >We coulda won if we tried harderWell ya (we) didn't so it doesn't fucking matter. Like a team at the superbowl afterparty saying if they had hit harder and pushed themselves to run faster they'd have won and thinking that's anything more than cope on a rope for a big ol dope.
>>65293101>Losses are irrelevant, only strategic objectives matterIn the same way that Karelia was a critical asset to Soviet Russia, so it was worth grinding infinity conscripts to paste to take it?
>>65293058Aww, are you gonna cry?
>>65293151>>65293101USA and the soviets both lost lmao. All of you fat neckbeard faggots thinking any honor, or shame, from either outcome is yours? Pathetic to the bone
>>65292137If you make an invading force realize, "What the fuck are we doing here?" then it's not conducive to attritional warfare.
>>65293196Not to mention, it didn't take long for people to realize that America wasn't at any actual risk, no death made America any more safe. Ho Chi Minh wasn't planning to attack Manhattan or Omaha.
>>65292951>created a rivalThe Vietnamese distain for bugmen go way further back.
>>65292137Americans realized that this was a dumb war and we voted to go home, it's as simple as that. The joy of not being a face culture is that you can do damage, just leave, and then later absorb people into your zone of influence. To put it less cynically, we realized we kind of liked the Vietnamese and they kind of liked us and we shouldn't have been killing them on behalf of the French in the first place.
>>65293045Oddly enough Vietnamese and Americans naturally sort of like each other. They both like guns, they both like farming and living in the woods, and they both sort of like the same tactics historically. It was a brutal conflict, but it was a conflict between two solid cultures. China on the other hand acted like a complete bitch and so did Cambodia, so Vietnamese friendship with America was inevitable.
>>65292137They wren't
>>65292137North Vietnamese and VC>were willing to fight.>had unlimited weapons, supplies and training from China and Soviet Union.>learnt and adapted to the warfare style that suit their strength and weakness.On the meta level, they wanted to fight, they had the tools to fight and they knew how to fight.Everyone else simply lacked one or two of these three aspects.
>>65292137>FrenchLong ceased to be a great power, they lost their foothold basically when Germany conquered them and didn't have the means after the war to colonize Vietnam again.>AmericansThe only impressive victory, but even then they won by simply not collapsing and clearing u the failed Soutern Vietnamnese State after the U.S. couldn't stay aynmore.>ChineseActually Vietnam did prety poorly against China. Perhaps you could say that this was a victory, however Vietnam was significantly beter equipped, trained and experienced (because China sent them all their weapons during the Vietnam war to push the U.S. out which made the PLA end up fighting still with semi-automatic rifles when they invaded Vietnam): China wasn't prepared to fight at all even if we ignore the technological disparity and despite that they performed better than th Vietnamnese despite most likely not even outnumbering them to a significant degree (200.000 PLA soldiers against100.000 Vietnamnese Soldiers and 150.000 Vietnamnese irregulars).>Cambodians We are talking about an agrarian shithole that spent more time and resources killing its own population and destroying its own industrial base than actually militarizing. ISIS was a more credible state than the Khmer Rogue.
>>65292137>picthat's not a vietand neither were their weapons
>>65292137If Vietnam was fought like Korea the USA would have won.
>>6529304520 year war is nothing compared to 2 millenniums of conflict with the Chinese.
>>65293045>Absolutely astonishing that (North) Vietnam had a long and brutal 20 year war with the Americans, and then because of China, they still decide "Actually, maybe the Americans weren't THAT bad."Traitor is worse than an enemyWith someone that is hostile, but open about it, you can arrange yourself after the hostilities pass but a traitor could betray you anytimeThat's obviously an oversimplification but i saw interviews with old vietkong fighters with that exact sentiment, they considered what China did a backstabbing thus making them less trustworthy than than the burgers
>>65292137they have strunk wymyn
Jungle canopy and fear of Chinese intervention expanding the scope of the war in an age of inadequate senors and fires.
>>65292137You could've posted an actual attractive woman instead of that
>>65292184>muh political pressureRetarded cope, there wouldn’t be any political pressure if they were winning
>>65293151... yes?
>>65294217The military being forced to fight with their hands tied behind their back because of retarded political decisions didn't help the winning situation wich then ironically lead to more political pressure back home.
People always make a few fundamental mistakes with Vietnam:1. They forget that Vietnam fought the Japanese and was even trained by the OSS. It ended up with decades of experiance in land tactics.2. Vietnam is a regional power and that's the big motivating factor of why relations broke down with China so quickly.3. People compare the US War with the Malay Emergency without realising the divergence between a communist minority and a mass decolonisation movement./k/ is predictably chest thumping and coping about the US War but the US lost because it had a bad strategy and doctrine.
>>65293151They were lying about only wanting their small little buffer, lol.
>>65294283Imagine saying this about Vietnam where carpet bombing was the normUnless you mean throwing a nuke or something which would have much more political implications than just public pressure
>>65294283>military being forced to fight with their hands tied behind their backUnironically are you 15?Even the contemporary experts in irregular war at the time (Hackworth, John Paul Vann) noted the bad decision for the US to even be the frontline combatant in the war and the counter-productive nature of using heavy-handed responses under search and destroy that created a counter-force. The 'stab in the back' political myth is a cope, the more the US tried to lean into hard power the stronger the backlash and the harder it sunk into a quagmire without delivering the results it expected which became so disastrous it was knocked off the gold standard.The war was lost because of hard power. Had the US kept itself at arms length with indirect support and pushed South Vietnam to be a country worth fighting for then the results would've been much better. Shit, there was no reason to even fight Ho Chi Minh, the dude would've happily been America's communist.
I am tired of soft power fags, their weakness disgusts me. If the enemy does not capitulate, just kill them even harder with deadlier weapons until nothing living stands where an enemy once stood. The world could do with less annoying creatures hopping upon its surface. If the aliens have a problem with that, fuck em'.
>>65294185>Vietnam>Posts Japanese girl, wearing Japan-flag-swimsuit, with Japanese textYou a baka or something?
>>65292137>north vietnammistaken investments on the part of these USA and good investment on the part of the soviets. Specifically the investment in cheap, accurate long range arty was a far more effective and local long term solution than the air support/COIN that the Americans chose. Alongside the western side building what is essentially a COIN force while the commies focused on conventional arms after getting properly rekt in their insurgent insertions. People vastly overestimate what was essentially a foreign incursion based on guerilla tactics to be a natural, genuine revolution while understate the importance of the strela, artillery systems that enabled their tank hordes to actually march on to Saigon. Had the south had more ammo more AT weaponry and good enough arty to counteract northern efforts instead of US airpower, the US taking a hands-off approach in 1972 would be largely irrelevant and the beachheads the commies made would be undone to arrange a mostly stable state of affairs like in Korea. Maybe slightly more army divisions would be needed to cover the strategic width of the country at that point, but it wouldn't fundamentally make a difference if the norgooks couldn't make the tank attacks supported by artillery to exploit that with enough speed
>>65294267So, what did Russia do with Karelia?
>>65293943True.>>65294143Also true. Also, I really love that western socialists screamed, cried, and shat their pants that the North Vietnamese Army actually invaded Cambodia in response to all their attacks, and deposed heckin wholesome revolutionary brother Pol Pot and his Khmer Rogue.Then as the Cambodian Genocide was revealed to the world, all those people had to just very quietly and shamefully evade and ignore that subject in the future.
>>65292137Pretty simple. France was still pretty weak at the time and had a bunch of opposition to the war back home. America was pretty strong but had no idea wtf it was doing at first and after WW2, Americans regard the military equivalent of stubbing your toe as horrendous casualties and thus quickly lost popular support, which led to poor morale in the rank and file as well as a massive political incentive to end the war even if it ended in a loss. China was just inept and thus somehow fucked up a perfidious backstab against a former ally. And Cambodia was a failed state.None of this is to take the Vietnamese's accomplishments from them. But many times, people take underdog victories in war as a sign the underdog was some sort of perfect martial race slaughtering their enemies by the thousands. When instead it usually comes down to home field advantage, stubbornness, and exploiting (or at least surviving) the great power's major flaw. It's a good case study in why "western" forces after WW2 have underperformed in almost every offensive war they've fought.
>>65292137I bet she brushes her teeth with Hynos.
>>65293827>Actually Vietnam did prety poorly against ChinaJAPANESE GRANDFATHER
>>65293827>Vietnam did prety poorly against ChinaBy what goddamn metric? The K/D ratio is completely absurd.
>>65293830She's not Viet? What/who is she?
>>65292137Frogs were over-extended and couldn't deal with all their colonial holdings simultaneously.When fighting the Americans they were willing to eat shit and die in droves until the political impetus for the war declined enough that the opposition went home with an armistice, which they gambled that the Americans didn't give enough of a shit about to uphold, which was correct.The Chinks are just incompetent retards, unlike the former two they suffered decisive battlefield defeats at the hands of the gooks. The French had some hard fights and no prospect for strategic victory no matter how many battles were won, the Americans walked all over Vietnam, the chinks lost on the open battlefield because their doctrine and logistics were total shit.I don't know why faggots act like pointing out that Vietnam employed a classic Fabian strategy is a cop-out.
>>65294294>1. They forget that Vietnam fought the Japanese and was even trained by the OSS. It ended up with decades of experiance in land tactics.Also after Japan's unconditional surrender a bunch of the Japanese garrison in Vietnam including commanding officers defected to the Viet Minh and trained their cadres in a military academy
>>65295266>I don't know why faggots act like pointing out that Vietnam employed a classic Fabian strategy is a cop-out.Because thirdies and western socialists very desperately need their emotional support fantasy to cope with life, same with Afghanistan and Iran.
>>65293045Well despite slaughtering the actual combat forces they never really got bombed to shit. And the American leadership loudly announced that they wouldn't be bombing the dikes and other waterworks of North Vietnam despite very much being able to and that very much leading to millions of civilian casualties if they did in fact do so. The Chinks made a real mess of all the infrastructure they can get their hands on. The fact is that most of the bombs the US dropped on 'Nam were tactical strikes aimed at convoys. So despite dropping more ordinance on WW2 most of the casualties were bugs, monkeys(heh), and water buffalo. Since only the South got any fire zones cleared by agent orange and its use wasn't nearly as extensive as libtards say given that it was just them applying defoliants to the same zones over and over.For all the "muh maylay!"s that both libtards and shitskins screech the US conduct during the war was fairly subdued even compared to the French and the Vietnamese government knew it. Also these are commie revolutionaries realpolitik is their bread and butter, if the US says that they have lost interest and every action they take for a decade supports that assertion they will definitely pick of disinterested former enemy over an actively interested enemy on their border.
>any post that isnt saying vietnam numba won gets attacked by people who sound like they just left a kyiv bombing thread
>>65295304>The Sino-Vietnamese War WASN'T a colossal meatgrinder for the ChineseOk, lil bro.
>>65294367Niggas will really post this as cope for losing a war they weren’t even involved with!
>>65294309Taking the US off the gold standard was what a lot of faggots(mostly jews but also oldschool progs) wanted to begin with, 'Nam was just a coinvent excuse. Hell you could say that the fucked situation of the British in WW1 which gave the impetus to get them off the Gold Standard was mostly just an excuse to get what several factions of the Exchequer wanted even when guys like Churchill vehemently opposed it they still signed off when the excuse was made. Much like how the riots in the Civil Rights era were no real threat to state or local white power, but many parties didn't want white nationalism for a number of reasons and used it as an excuse. After 1848 there have been almost no genuine popular revolutions, they've all be curated or at least taken advantage of by existing powers to push shit they already wanted as a "solution" to a problem they themselves get define. That's just politics but many of the examples of the last two centuries are really fucking obvious and obnoxious because their proponents make them out to be inevitable or even moral points rather than the naked self-interest they really are.
The American strategy overall was just bad and wasn’t yielding any long term results. The only reason the VC were neutralized is because they decided to fight en masse as a conventional force during the tet offensive and ate shit. But overall the American strategy was just awful. A better strategy would’ve been to do the fortified hamlet strategy the British employed, except actually do it right and not have a north Vietnamese double agent in charge of it like South Vietnam attempted to do
>>65292137Disregard for human casualties and the inability of the opposition to improve the lives of the locals.
>>65292933>>65292951>>65293680>>65293045>>65292218>Viets despite having frigates lost to chinks that didn't even have proper warships
>>65292137Prep time is a helluva thing. Japs gave them a good reason to dig in, they then used that against the French, Australians, and us. By the time the chinks got the bright idea to try and invade Vietnam they had damn near a whole generation raised for fighting in tunnels. Hard to beat the ultimate turtle strat
>>65295838I mean you can, you just need to kill everyone. I think there is a disconnect between the libtards, commies, shitskins, ect on one side and the actual Americans on another. When an American says "we could have blown the living shit out of them and won" the his opposite numbers think its a matter of pride or "face" in reality he's pissed off that the ruling elite have always been pussy fagots who didn't think that was the optimal solution from the word go and is bitter that it still isn't. He has the solution to the problem and is shot down for decades on end.Death to Clausewitz, death to politics, war for the sake of war and profit.
>>65295350>wasn’t yielding any long term resultsI'll disagree it wasn't yielding short term results, it was slaughtering the male population of Veitnam and the NVA itself estimated it had 3 years left before it simply would have run out of suitable dudes and had to scale back operations. Whether that would have been accepable to the US if it was known or if basically letting the gooks take a ten year break and possibly have another try would be acceptable is another matter. It was an ineffective strategy for what they desired and doctrine was set mostly by "greatest generation" faggots who just couldn't get their heads out of WW2.
>>65293111>under the weight of all the immigrationWhat in the fuck are you talking about
>>65296058He's a thirdie and doesn't actually know the picture.
>>65292137I will never understand sending young kids across the pacific to fight "commies", when Cuba is 90 miles from Florida.
>>65296226Yorokobe, shounen
>>65296226Would have been more worth it, easier to do, and the Cubans would have been grateful for it.
>>65294217Yes there would be and was you retard. The US public thought it was winning for most of the war and it was still hugely unpopular. Why? because of the draft, and the lack of local threat. The US and france lost because they didnt have the will to win, not because the vietnamese were marching on washington and paris.
>>65295349thinking the gold standard wasnt always retarded is proof you are incapable of critical thought.
>>65293111there are no communists in the US government. I wish there actually were but they are at most social democrats like in Norway, which arent even socialists much less communists. If you support small business even existing, you are not a communist, or even a socialist.
>>65292137They had very impressive weapons... clocks, guns, eh, you know.
>>65299423Shut up tankie.
>>65299423You bet your ass there isn't. We purged them out when USAIDS was shut down.
>>65299423Hey there, Pinko scum, I wish you kidney stones.>>65294217Are you fucking kidding?
>>65292137>vietcong"when are these roundeyes getting the fuck out of here?">french faggots, average US soldier"when the fuck can I get the fuck up out of here?"Ironically each force had the same exact goals despite shooting eachother
>>65293685>this retard thinks voting mattersyes, because america toOotally voted to be in the conflict to begin with
>>65299995Sounds like a win/win/win. And people say the US lost.
>>65293054>reduced population isnt overextended from industrialization like thailand, malaysian and phillipines>no parasitic demographic of giant aging population sucking the wealth out of younger generations >economic growth is steady and constant without being fucked over by the (((IMF))), hasnt borrowed since 1995>one of the least effected countries from the 90s IMF asia crisis>has zero of the instability issues all the other parts of indochina suffer from
>>65294756Kek I didn't know that. Based Nathaniel Victor.
>OP garbage off-topic pic is from 2023Why is this thread allowed to remain on /k/ Catalog?
>>65292137>Suffer 1000:1 losses>Become proxy labor source for cheap clothes and coconuts>Lose territory>Barely survive through hit and run tactics, still continue to lose even with asymmetric tactics>Eventually be abandoned when the other forces get bored or annoyed and decide to leave>Declare victoryIt never gets old, lol
>>65293140Underrated post.
>>65299419I didn't say it wasn't retarded, and even if it wasn't in 1970 it would be today since both gold and silver are used in industrial processes. However the system which replaced it was retarded as well and in the interests of those who pushed for dropping the Gold Standard, big shocker. Oh and if your argument to get off the Gold Standard is so they you can manipulate interest rates more easily go fuck yourself, that is exactly the problem.
>>65293082>>65293101>>65293111>>65300033"We didn't get 100% genocided and then lost our culture! We win!"LOL the hole was a swamp of american cum and viet blood.
>>65294305Yeah President Johnson suspended the bombing campaign because he thought it would improve his parties chances of winning the election against Nixon. He was right, but it wasn't enough. Meanwhile North Vietnam used the pause in bombing to bomb-proof their logistics.
>>65302180>posts gook>"that's not a gook, it's gook whose gook parents fled to America"I want anti-racist faggotry to die so fucking hard.
>>65294217>deciding its not worth fighting over is the same as getting your ass kicked abd FORCED out
>>65302852A distinction without a difference. You lost.
>>65292137They wanted their retarded version of freedom more than life.
>>65294217America won military. We spent a shitton more money, nut we were decimating them.We should have just nuked Hanoi.
>>65300347Shut the fuck up, tourist scum.
>>65292137The US only lost because they had ethics and restraints.They could have nuked your shithole if they want.
>>65292184I had the opportunity to talk to a former Chinese vet from that war.He said they were taking massive casualties not from the Vietnamese but from malaria, yellow fever, dengue and half of the soldiers had terrible diarrhea that lead to fevers. Mines/traps also were a problem and the speed of advance was glacial due to the terrible terrain and poor logistics. Friendly fire in the jungle was also a issue when so many units were sent at once with outdated French era maps. Many of the old roads were long in disrepair or heavily mined.China had and still has some historical claims on parts of north Vietnam which France took when they established the cocinchina colony, they expected Vietnam to just give those territories to them for the help China provided but Vietnam said fuck that. Also Vietnam sided with the Russians during the sino soviet split and China wanted Vietnam to be on their side.But ultimately what caused China to give up was Russia as they said they would send Vietnam modern military aid if China didn't stop and as the conflict was already getting bogged down on their front and their ally the Khmer rouge proved very ineffective they decided not to end up stuck in a war were Vietnam had full soviet support. So they cut their losses and abandoned their Cambodian ally to its fate.
>>65292137>FrenchThe Vietnamese honed guerrilla warfare against the Japanese occupation, there wasn't much popular support in France to fight another war immediately after WWII and Dien Bien Phu absolutely btfo of the political will to continue the war. Vietnamese total victory.>AmericansThe war was mainly between north Vietnam and the French/US puppet state in the south that lacked any public support. There were a lot of American troops (incl Aussies and South Koreans btw) but most of the fighting was carried out by conscripts for an unpopular government that repressed the majority population (the ruling elite were Catholic and banned Buddhism until they were couped and replaced with a military junta). Viet Cong were a coalition of commies, Buddhists and nationalists and the North Vietnamese infiltrated the south with impunity and were more battle hardened than any fighting force on the planet. USA couldn't retaliate against the North for fear of MAD with the USSR or a repeat of the Korean war with Chinese intervention>ChinaThe Chinese won this round. They took a lot of casualties but the invasion was always planned to last only a month before ending hostilities. They got some islands in the Pacific.>CambodiaThe country was experiencing mass famine and there was no state basically. Khmer Rouge had no state system and couldn't resist a foreign invasion from anyone.
Racial homogeneity. Means that you have an entire race of people fighting as if they are one family, with one goal in mind: the preservation of the family, and the destruction of its enemies. Mutts could never.
>>65302180And her name is...
>>65304373JOHN CENA
>>65303178Once again turdies and leftists think this is a pride thing. The outcomes are the same, but the lessons which drawn from the war which are used to shape future doctrine are radically different.
>>65293111they are a "communist" country that does the same as every other communist country. they realize the shit doesnt work very well in strict practice and reverts to making some things a market economy.
>>65292137they had the stronger will
>>65293101I agree that anyone who tries to paint the war as anything but loss to US is coping hard, but in order to have any realistic discussion here without degenerating to pointless shit-flinging, one also needs to split political and military aspects here.Because while>actually US got better kill-death-ratio so they wonis equally retarded to>lmaoo US army is so shit that they can’t win farmers in rice hats lmaooooand both are annoyingly common.The truth is that US copped a massive strategic loss when it decided to enter a conflict that it never really had a proper victory path out of. South Vietnam was a zombie-tier regime that was never going to survive on itself, US never had the will to occupy North Vietnam proper to force the end of the war. So, even if US military performed objectively well in the war, tactical victories were ultimately pointless when there was no strategy to win the war as whole and/or no political will to do those things that would be required for victory. So, the truth is that US lost the war and should never have got involved in it, but equally, it would be as dumb to use it as some sort of bludgeon to shit on US military.
>>65304449>Once again fascists and counterrevolutionaries think this is a pride thing, cyka. The outcomes are the same, but the lessons which Mother Russia drew from Afghanistan are used to shape future blyadtkrieg doctrine, and the next time will be radically different, you'll see. >We didn't lose, mighty Russia just got tired of killing you.
Really have to respect the North Vietnamese, they really had the will and guts to stick it out. Unrelated, but I don't want to make up a new thread for it. I just rewatched Platoon. Was the U.S. military as unprofessional frankly ineffective as it's depicted in Platoon or Apocalypse now? When Platoon ends with "dedicated to the men who fought in Vietnam" or whatever I couldn't help but think they portrayed them in an overall negative light. I know shit like Mai Lai went down, but it seems like the films portray that shit as the norm, not the extreme exception.
>>65303837>infiltratedyou mean half the south became provocateurs after the southern government was throwing people in camps and every other citixen is providing intel to vietcong, even in "secure" macvsog bases, down to fucking random bomb and ammo factory workers making fake "reject" mines and ammo and siphoning them to NVA and vietcongthat fucking retard mcnamara was bitching about dominoes while occupying a house of cards wishing for its own downfall
>>65305796Platoon and AN both show a rather realistic view of the military. They fuck up constantly and people die for stupid reasons, just like in any war, ever.
>>65292137>frenchoverextended empire with unrealistic policy goals. >americansoverextended empire with unrealistic policy goals>chinese overextended third world commies with unrealistic policy goals. still, the chinese can claim to have completed some of their objectives.>cambodiansfailed stateWith the exception of the cambodians and maybe France, Vietnam was never actually the main theater for any of it's many 20th century opponents. France had other colonies it was trying to hold down it's other colonies, America had huge force deployments in Europe to confront the USSR, China viewed Vietnam as a theater of the Sino-Soviet split. The really interesting question here was "why did the great powers commit so many resources into influencing south east asia".
>>65306315France wanted to still be an Empire.America was stuck on domino theory. China was trying to prop up the CambodiansCambodia was just trying to kill it self and doing a good job.
>>65306315>Vietnam was never actually the main theater>US started filling the draft with retards to make recruitment numbersI didnt know vietnam was some casual trystyou figure theyd have pull out if they totally hadnt dumped a shit ton of resources and werent having a severe case of sunk cost fallacy
>>65305796The US army is always unprofessional, as for ineffective they filled out the ranks in 'Nam with actual retards and niggers. Seriously this was partly they trying to force integration, which ironically caused many niggers in Nam to wrongly think they were being used as cannon fodder on purpose when the reality was that they just suck at war and should have been excluded from the combat forces(current combat units are 93%+ white) by testing. The BLA and even more explicitly Mau Mau formed because niggers refused to properly take cover and couldn't shoot straight and therefore suppress the VC in a firefight. Since the blacks took proportionally higher casualties they drew the conclusion that the whites were the problem rather than their lack of common sense. To be fair to the darkies the army had never taught many basic skills before because it had assumed all the men just "knew" them inherently or would pick them up. Remember that there were only 850 black servicemen killed in combat in the entire US military experience of WW2.This was exacerbated by them lowering the testing standards in general and inducting actual retards. Project 100,000 aka McNamara's Morons was pretty famous even at the time. The old minimum IQ standard was 80 that was essentially eliminated. Remember that the mean IQ of negros was and remains to this very day to be 85, so there is also significant overlap with the above issue.
>>65293045They didn't want the war. The US literally invaded them.
>>65305416Of course it's a thirdie trying to save Russizzat.
>>65292137I've seen her vagina tee hee
>>65305416The shitskin cannot conceptualize an a cruel analytical mind which who primary interest in a given issue is abstract an intellectual. To the shitskin both biological and spiritual everything must have an emotional component, and anyone who claims otherwise is obviously lying.Let me lay it out so the melinated in the thread might understand, using the proposed example of Afghanistan.USSR ExperienceThey experienced 25k dead with a ratio of 8:1 in their favor.The enemy had direct support of state actors including some US equipment which was superior to their own equivalents(Stingers ect).The conflict continued for 10 years with constant fighting to secure territory and the USSR never had full control of the territory.Enemies hid in Pakistan.US ExperienceThey experienced 2.5k dead with a ratio of 50:1 in their favor.The enemy had nearly no means to counter US air power and armor. However the US relied heavily on local auxiliaries who suffered comparable casualties to their counterparts during the conflict.The conflict continued for 20 years, but Afghanistan was functionally secure within 3 months.Enemies hid in Pakistan.Are these general situations similar, yes in some ways but the political motivations for withdrawal were different as were the entire strategic dispositions of the forces involved. Indeed the salient similarity was the fact that its hard to maintain peace in a territory when it shares a porous border with another state which outright supports the insurgents.
>>65293082>maintaining your sovereignty while the invaders all give upNorth Vietnam was literally invading south Vietnam and ethnically cleansing it. How tf is that "maintaining your sovereignty over invaders" >>65292137I always thought it might be related to Vietnamese chick's having the biggest natural tits of all Asians. But that might just be a side effect of the entire female population of the country getting rawdog gang banged 24/7 by Americans for like 15 years straight
>>65306396>Khmer Rogue ACTUALLY managed to murder a whole quarter of Cambodia's population in a span of 4 yearsExtremely insane. That there's tankie retards still lionizing Pol Pot to this day is both hilarious and sad, truly the worst wastes of space on earth.
>>65307239Most of their leadership basically got away with it too, when the lot of them should have been swinging from trees and lamp posts around the country. Alas, many of the lower leadership lingers in the post-genocide government, which is a big reason for its reluctance to for instance teach about it much in schools, so much of their youth aren't greatly aware of this history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywQG6mNONJchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmkEppXe6ughttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eOtz1A4oXghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfrgLrjutl0Here's some nice and smooth music by a Cambodian singer the Khmer Rogue murdered, and then tried to eliminate all traces of from history. Original masters were destroyed, but Sinn Sisamouth's music (and as such, a piece of the Cambodian people's cultural soul from before the revolution) managed to be preserved for the future still.
Is it hard to get viet gf like that, bros?
>>65296027>War for the sake of warShokūn.
>>65299995I remember reading that the NVA, near the end of the US involvment, had the orders to not fire until fired upon by Americans, which explains that Anon's story on how a guy got 10 cartons of Vietnam cigs for a 1911.
>>65300392I will never hate that part of history. Vietnam had its Vietnam. Which probably explains why they don't dislike America that much after all.
>>65300392>>65308184do people really cope that Cambodia actually won the war?
>>65292137It was their home, meaning:1. highly motivated to defend it (homogenous population)2. knowledgeable about terrain3. didn't have to bring in reinforcements or supplies from 10000 miles away4. easy political tailwinds as the colonial and US backed governments were unpopular. made it easy to frame the war as "we either win our liberty or we are enslaved by <INSERT COUNTRY HERE>inb4:>america did win vietnam because there's a McDonalds over thereThere's also a BMW dealership and it didn't take a 150 billion USD (1 trillion today) and 50k dead Germans to make it happen.>waaah america was bankrupted by vietnam! muh bretton woods!Read about the Triffin dilemma and consider what european banks printing infinite dollar IOUs that they can swap for american gold does to US gold reserves. Nixon is unironically an american hero for putting a stop to it.
>>65292184>France and America gave up because of the political pressure at homeDon't come on here and cite historically accurate facts, it infuriates us
>>65293045The Vietnamese admired America. Ho Chi Minh literally quoted the US Declaration of Independence in Vietnam's demands to be free and was a shockingly well-educated Ameriboo besides. They never hated us like most of our enemies did. They just weren't going to let us kill them on France's behalf because they dared invoke communist language (which wasn't communist enough for the other nations).
>>65292137Reminder the Japanese and British beat them.
>>65294216Id fuck it.
>>65292137>able to defeat Chinese and Cambodians Anon, the Chinese adopted and later railed the PAVN in the Battle of Lang Son, Hill 400 and Laoshan and made a PAVN general said that if they continue to fight like this, every Vietnamese woman can't give birth in time to supply because the Vietnamese thought the same doctrine they used against the U.S would work and political pressure might work, turns out dealing with another communist, political pressure is like telling a Russian to stop fucking his countrymen asshole because it's gay only for him to say it's an act of dominant. Not to mention, the PAVN failed to capture the North-Western part of Cambodia which resulted in many Cambodia faction against them. The Vietnamese had to bail out because the Soviet can't help them and everyone was growing tired of it
>>65300392>be PAVN veteran>your government is now taking your house and seized your property to fund their oligarch faggot named Pham Nhat Vuong that make dogshit car>your government is now sucking everyone cock for money>your children is now finding a way to escape your country to America or Canada >Pho, one of your national pride, is now being so expensive for you to have one >the only thing that prevent you from killing yourself is because you can't do it without getting your corpse beaten to hell by the government owned real-estate
>>65309717>(homogenous population)They literally started persecuting the ethnic groups that sided with the US when they took over Saigon.Just because they're all vaguely brown and slant eyed doesn't mean they're homogenous.>There's also a BMW dealershipMissing the point. The way the Vietnam war ended was a complete mess. It's basically up to personal interpretation how you want it to end.If you're a jingoist American and a full blown commie hater, the eyebrow was raised, the gloves came off, and everyone in Hanoi understood everything. They were pressured into signing the Paris accords and that's the end, the US leaves, please stop reading the rest of the history book.If you're a demoralized peacenik cuck or a commie lover, the US had to tap out and flee with its tail tucked between the legs from the Viet Minh BVLL.If you want to contextualize it as North Vietnam playing possum until the US is gone and treating a lie as a military strategy to get strategic victory after tactical defeat, we can recontextualize the eventual American cultural victory as a strategic win and a defeat of communism.McDonald's isn't about the restaurant chain itself - McDonald's is just symbolism for America, like the opening of the first McDonald's in Moscow symbolizes the American victory over the Soviets. Think not of the 50k dead to put a McDonald's in Vietnam. Think of the 1.1 million who died to prevent one from being built in the first place. What was the point, in the end?I don't think BMW carries the "Deutschland, fick ja!" sentiment.>Nixon is unironically an american hero for putting a stop to it.You rehabilitated a pretty shitty post in just one sentence. Finally a based opinion.
>>65295425lay off the copium, chinkcel
>>65292951The only place I've ever seen anyone try and frame the vietnam war as a victory is this ridiculous board
>>65296226Vietnam was a defensive war. Invading Cuba would not have been after 1959. It’s like most of /k/ tries not to understand the US’ Cold War strategy of not giving commies their imperialist boogeyman and thus scaring independent nations to run to the USSR and giving commies in those undecided nations more support out of fear that they could be the next state that America was going around blatantly toppling
>>65299423>state run grocery stores with no food>no privately owned firearmsNYC government is not REAL communism (because the speech laws and two-tier policing haven’t been as successful here yet as they have in say Britain)
>>65292951>This is also why turdies try to frame the US's war in Vietnam as a failure when it lead to the sino-soviet split >Sino-Soviet Split: 1961??
>>65295260>>65302180That's a Filipino
>>65304349Vietnam has various tribes and indigenious groups
>>65313512Fair enough re: population. I should have worded it differently: you inevitably provoke a "rally around the flag" moment if you invade a country and the intensity of that moment will broadly speaking be influenced by social cohesion. You do miss the point of the BMW dealership comment. Even if we go by the idea that history is written by who controls the drive-thru then it's clear that planting the flag in 75 to begin the socialist utopia was always gonna end in them being starved by central planning and begging the west for capital in the end. We could've gotten the McDonald's without a shot fired is what I'm saying.
>>65315407The problem here is hindsight.Even if we're true believers in the almighty free market and figure that communism is gonna collapse because Ludwig von Mises said so, there's still a problem that at the time Domino Theory seemed valid and having a bunch of commie nations crumble and request assistance/have millions of refugees seek all at the same time would be a disaster.It just so happened that the entire region had generational beef so them fighting each other kinda took wind out of the sails of international revolution.The alternate timeline where the US just does nothing predicting a communist collapse would risk the entire Latin America, Africa, most of Asia and even a few counties in Western Europe falling into the Second World. That's already a terrible situation. All of them suffering economic collapse at once and requiring the US/Canada/perhaps Australia to bail them out would send everything into a tailspin.
>>65308159>10 cigarette cartons >in the early 1970swouldnt that only be like $20 back then?
>>65317835Yes but the average family also earned only $12,000 a yearIt's $80,000 now so that $20 is now like $133
>>65292137They didn't.
>>65292137it was a fake war you dumb fucks
>>65313512
>>65318461What's a fake war?
>>65318461Yeah, what's a fake war?
>>65315407>Even if we go by the idea that history is written by who controls the drive-thru then it's clear that planting the flag in 75 to begin the socialist utopia was always gonna end in them being starved by central planning and begging the west for capital in the end.A lot of what made communism attractive (where it was) was that existing systems were just too politically primitive or too dumb to rally around. Russia was run by aristocratic schemers who were really radical in their own way, like wanting to take Constantinople back (that was crazy) and ended up driving the empire into a concrete wall at high speed. The communists destroyed those regimes but central planning didn't work, and their own way of handling international relationships was a complete shitshow (the autism of the Sino-Soviet split, the USSR invading Warsaw Pact countries, China and Vietnam going to open war with each other), while Vietnam managed to survive because it turned into a "fun" smiley-faced version of 1984/Brave New World dictatorship focused on making money and developmentalism which larps as Marxist-Leninist for historical reasons:https://youtu.be/HX3UcwUYMjM
>>65299409>not because the vietnamese were marching on washington and paris.Thats not what I read
>>65321780>that was crazyThe Turks gave up fucking Jerusalem a few years later, so no, it wasn't
>>65295243the Chinese despite being equipped like a mid-tier WW2 Army and completelly unprepared for the war pushed the experienced Vietnamnese who were showered with the best equipment of China and the USSR back and capture multiple cities in a few weeks. The Chinese then only left because as already laid down, they were completelly unprepared and Cambodia was a lost cause. In the end, they left the cities and towns they captured in ruins and retreated with consequences.Vietnam may have technically won because Cambodia fell anyway, but the Vietnamnese nonetheless got their arse kicked by a WW2 peasant army who didn't even want to be there.
>>65292137>Bleed and died in the tunnels like rats so they are freed from western oppression>Ended up being one of the sweatshop and sex tourism central for westernerWhat was even the point? Vietnam war is probably the most pointless war aside from WW1.
