>Multi-fuel EngineWhat a brilliant idea, why don't they work?
>>65301103They do.
Some do, just not that one because it has British Leyland on it.
>>65301109To be fair, the British were building this in 1954.
>>65301118It's 2026 and British cars are still shit.
>>65301118Yeah, badly. Took another two decades before it ran right.
>>65301144retard
>>65301103Does it work with wood gas?
>>65301175Where's the other one?
>>65301175British cars are great, when they workWhich is not very often
>>65301213Must be an anglo thing.
>>65301103Define "multi-fuel"
>>65301103>inline 6 Because only Junkers knew how to make them good.
>>65301228Diesel #1, diesel #2, ag diesel, marine diesel, heater oil (diesel), kerosene (diesel), jet fuel (diesel), HFO (diesel), biodiesel (not diesel)
>>65301208?
>>65303197#1, Kerosene and JP are basically the same thing. Which I acknowledge was part of your point.
>>65301103Multi-fuel shit tends to be maintenance intensive and overly complex, since different fuels ignite at different pressures and some require lubricants to not cause excessive wear. Theres nothing wrong with the idea, but its not as simple as the name suggests and running every vehicle off JP8 is logistically much more straightforward.
>>65303197Thats just the MTU spec sheet
>>65303204Ag diesel and heater oil are also the same thing, which is diesel #2 with red dye.
>>65303211This guy gets it. Trying to design an engine that isn't a turbine to run off fuels of varying viscosity, lubricity, volatility, energy density, and with different thermal responses that does its job off all of them is a nightmare. Trying to keep one running is a Sisyphean task.>but what's special about turbinesIt just fucking spins. As long as something is burning it just fucking spins. It doesn't need to worry about injection pressures and atomization rates vs cylinder dwell time and ideal stoichiometry, it just fucking spins. Yeah, you'll need to make some minor adjustments depending on fuel, but at the end of the day it's easier to just flow a shit load of whatever into a combustion chamber and let it fucking spin.
>>65303200neither of those cars are great, mclarens can’t even finish the fucking races half the time get bent faggot
>>65301103>While the standard military fuel is JP-8 jet fuel (aviation diesel), the tank can also run on standard diesel, kerosene, gasoline, heating oil, and even high-proof alcohol.But they do. Check the Abrams.
>>65301103they do workthey're called gas turbineswill literally burn anythingeven 100 proof booze
Even with steam turbines capable of burning virtually anything thrown into the boiler, the requirements for fuel quality are strict when it comes to generating a practical level of power output.
>>65303740>Trying to design an engine that isn't a turbine to run off fuels of varying viscosity, lubricity, volatility, energy density, and with different thermal responses that does its job off all of them is a nightmare.Ahem.
>>65303879>Won the Driver's and Manufacturer's Championships last year>Only 2 DNFs out of 16 entries so far this year
Umm...
>>65304063Ok, point given. Now make it small enough to fit in a chassis, give it good HP/ton and peak torque, and a wide enough RPM band to allow for combat use.
>>65303740115/145 Avgas was shitty fuel to run J47s on.Lead deposits.
>>65304115And current diesel fuel used in the US has carboxylytes precipitating out of solution at above 38k PSI and depositing inside injectors which is causing all kinds of issues with new common rail systems. It doesn't change the fact that turbines are way, way more accomodating of various fuels.
>>65303231>Ag diesel and heater oil are also the same thingI was going to call you retarded...but you're right? Wtf? It is just diesel without lubricants that an engine wants. Insane. I thought something more energy dense would be used, like, something a really oily and hard to pimp.
>>65301175What kind of asshole drives a Lotus?
>>65301103Every modern tank engine is multi-fuel, it just needs some tuning before use.
>>65301118Even back in WW2, Ford was tasked with making engines for Rolls Royce for use in aircraft. They had to ask the Brits what the actual fuck was wrong with their schematics, these engines were impossible to build. The Brits of course responded with characteristic, falsely placed smug superiority "Haha, we knew you idiots couldn't make an engine so well engineered" to which Ford replied "No, you retards, these tolerances are fucked, we literally can't make an engine this imprecisely it won't work" so they redesigned the whole thing and then started mass producing them.ALL US tanks use 'multifuel' engines.
>>65304477>Even back in WW2 Even back in WW2 the P-51 was a piece of junk till they put a Rolls Royce engine in it.
>>65304544Built in the USA, since the British couldn't even make them properly or in volume of course.
>>65304379In most of the US, heater oil even has the engine additives because you have to special order it and the fuel wholesalers will just come out and fill you up with ag diesel (which is normal diesel #2 but without road use taxes, and dyed red so the cops can swab your tank to check for the dye if they think you're using it to fill your pickups). It's basically just New England where heater oil is prevalent enough to stock separately.
>>65303740>doesn't need to worry about injection pressures and atomization ratesTurbine fuel injectors do care about these things actually.
>>65304548ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/uk-merlin-production-figures.53485/Why lie?
>>65304379Amazing. Even though your first reaction was to be the retard AND a cunt, you managed to educate yourself.Diesel is diesel, some of it is just taxed harder.
>>65304596For the purpose of stoking division between Western nations.
>>65304379Heating oil being just red-dyed diesel is a US thing, and happens because it's the cheapest and most efficient way to get the job done, considering the size of the market niche compared to overall diesel demand, how US refineries are set up, and how refined products are shipped. In some third-world countries (i.e., Russia), I believe it's a heavy gunk that isn't good for much else. I can't speak for anyone else.
>>65304544Packard-Bell took the RR blueprints and figured out how to make them work.
>>65304802>Heating oil being just red-dyed diesel is a US thingNo, it's a thing in various European countries too, although the color of the dye is subject to change.It's all basically just diesel with some dye added, to indicate that it's not supposed to be used in road-going motor vehicles, and that it's supposed to be taxed differently.Then there's Mazut. The coal tar-like awfulness the russians use for central heating systems in their cities, and what still powers some of their navy ships.The accursed Mazut shit the russians burn in their central heating plants is exclusively a third-world thing.In terms of fuel quality and contamination levels, Mazut is significantly worse than the Bunker-C heavy fuel oil the allies were fueling their ships with in WWII.The shitter parts of the former soviet union, and Iran, are the only significant producers and consumers of Mazut.Mazut is such utter garbage that there are international laws preventing the use of such fuel to power commercial ships on the open oceans.It's arguably even worse than coal in terms of pollution and smog.
>>65304834Bunker fuel is at least good for the climate, but they're burning something worse IN THEIR CITIES? Surely they do have an upper class that'd enjoy not getting cancer from just breathing air?
>>65304849>Surely they do have an upper class that'd enjoy not getting cancer from just breathing air?They live in the EU
>>65304864They should be put on a sealed train and sent to moscow.
>>65304849The "upper class" in russia only exist in two cities. Moscow and St.Petersburg. Those are the only two areas in the entire vast nation with a standard of living anywhere approaching western levels.The rest of russia is beyond 3rd world tier, full of troglodytes living in the decaying ruins of the Soviet union.That being said, the very wealthiest russians rarely live in russia, the oligarchs just buy citizenships in the west and live there.Yeah, the russians are burning this shit in their cities just to stay warm enough to survive, and to provide electricity.The Iranians burn the same shit to run their power plants, and the smog is bad enough that Iranians are encouraged to keep their windows and doors closed at all times, and Iranian schools are closed on "smog days" when the pollution is so fucking bad that just being outdoors is enough to cause serious health effects.The russians don't give a fuck, they don't expect their population to live beyond 50-60 years anyway, so they just pump poison into the air and tell their population to suck it up and deal with it, because mazut is cheap and disposable, just like the russian population.
>>65304544God I haven’t seen this image in at least 11 years.
>>65304807>>65304548>It was a shitty engine and we couldn't build a better one so we had to buy it on licenseNot the flex you think it is
>>65301175>japanese engine
>>65304063...believe it or not, I think I might have one of these under a tarp outside my garage.When my grandpa passed away, I was tasked with cleaning out his garage. He was born poor as dirt during the height of the great depression, spent his early years in a "hooverville" style slum, and literally never threw out anything that could still have value.He was an engine mechanic on an LCI ship during WW2 at 18 years old, and he had a fascination with tinkering and repairing all kinds of things.In another life, with any kind of actual education (I don't honestly know if he ever went to school at all), he could have probably been a brilliant engineer or inventor.I thought the fucking thing was a homemade air compressor because there were a bunch of his more modern machined parts on it, but it might have actually been him repairing it or trying to get it to run on some other kind of fuel? I put it aside like ten years ago and kept it because I didn't feel right sending it to the scrap yard, always planning to figure it out later, but never got around to it.Fuck me this just sparked a mystery for me I need to look into.
>>65304834Imagine where they could be if they refined that shit into bitumen instead and started paving their fucking roads.
They even made bivalent engines that could run on gasoline and CNG/LPG.Brazilians can fuel ethanol made from sugar cane in their cars.
>>65304980>refinedgonna be a little difficult now
>>65304544checked, Wrong.Wasn't the engine itself (<--six of one half dozen of the other)—it was the two-speed two stage supercharger installation.
>>65301175Lotus is Malaysian
>>65305235The two state supercharger that Rolls Royce created and placed on the Merlin 61
>>65305000Ethanol as fuel is retarded.
>>65305330Ethanol is the fuel of mankind, you shut your whore mouth
>>65304834>Then there's Mazut. The coal tar-like awfulness the russians use for central heating systems in their cities, and what still powers some of their navy ships.>The accursed Mazut shit the russians burn in their central heating plants is exclusively a third-world thing.>In terms of fuel quality and contamination levels, Mazut is significantly worse than the Bunker-C heavy fuel oil the allies were fueling their ships with in WWII.>The shitter parts of the former soviet union, and Iran, are the only significant producers and consumers of Mazut.>Mazut is such utter garbage that there are international laws preventing the use of such fuel to power commercial ships on the open oceans.>It's arguably even worse than coal in terms of pollution and smog.Guess I'm not the only guy who watches the Australian soviet ship autist
>>653040812 of 18 as of yesterday
>>65304089>how much does one of these cost?>don't worry about it
>>65305920It's inefficient to produce, significantly less energy dense and hygroscopic.
>>65305988For performance it's great though. It's 108 octane and doesn't have the less efficient combustion reactions in lean conditions that gasoline does, so you can actually make a bit more power with e85 than with racegas. Also the can buy it at the pump for about the same price per mile as regular.>but it's only that cheap because of subsidies! You're paying for it twice!I have to pay the taxes regardless of whether I use the E85. It's silly to pay for great fuel with your taxes and then not make use of it.
>>65305099*if they had refined that shit
>>65304578Turbine fuel injectors don't generally have a crack pressure of 3.5k psi on the low end.
>>65301175>thread about engines>pictured british car doesn't have a british engine
>>65301103There's a number of reasons, one is that turbines are a thing and essentially give you that capability within certain limits. many turbines will run on anything from diesel to avgas while many "multi-fuel" engines are marketing slogans that mean:>give me a ethanol and gasoline mix but nothing else>my engine accessories are able to handle diesel grades ranging from slightly dirty to very dirty The other thing is that the other way around is much easier logistically. If you can deliver fuel A to a vehicle in the field reliably you can also deliver fuel B to said vehicle. Which is why the US standardized on JP-8. One fuel to make most things go. One fuel the engines need to be designed for.And compared to refining, transporting and even storing fuels making engines isn't that complex.
>>65301103tl;dr they are mediocre at any specific one, and so anyone who specializes wipes the floor with them
>>65305256yes. the early merlin was pretty mid (pause to listen to the bongs drop their tea and blubber about the battle of britain) and equivalent to the allison in non-turbocharged applications. this is why Curtiss quickly the abandoned the merlin for the P-40 and went back to the V-1710. it was actually the better choice for fighter bomber applications. or, y'know, turbocharging them as they were designed for altitude performance. nobody complained about the allisons in P-38s.it wasn't until the supercharger improvements solved essentially a packaging problem that the merlin became what is is known for... in 1943. just in time to be replaced by the griffon less than a year later which after many years in development had finally matured and dunked on the merlin in just about every way.but why are we talking about these weakass inline engines when we know the real chad engine of the war was the R-2800 Double Wasp that tore the nuts off of all of them and did so in all sorts of applications and with many advanced compounding super/turbocharging systems?
>>65301103Instead of an engine that was good with one type of fuel you got an engine that was crap with most kinds of fuel. Because you needed to handle multiple fuel types you couldn't optimize for just one and ended up losing a lot of power for a given weight.
>>65304089This. And this: The M35A2 "Deuce and a Half" is famously powered by the Continental LDT-465 (or LD-465) multi-fuel engine. This 478-cubic-inch, inline-six engine uses the "Hypercycle" combustion system, allowing it to reliably run on standard diesel, gasoline, jet fuel, kerosene, heating oil, and even used motor or vegetable oils.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCXRUXOPMHQ
>>65301103What if we simply burned any fuel to heat water to move a piston to move the vehicle?
>>65301103you need to retune after changing the fuel type to get full performance and service life
>>65305256that to fit into and operate efficiently+effectively installed inside of a P-51 as its main powerplant system required a full 18 months of design development engineering and machine ground, wind tunnel and flight testing work by Rolls-Royce, North American Aviation (<--especially them for the airframe aerodynamics of the new engine install), Packard, and multiple independent consultants and engineers. New radiators, fuel system plumbing, engine mounts + thrust line, wing lowered by 3 inches, trim controls, ducting, fuselage design and structural strengthening, cowlings, carb intakes etc. Almost an entirely new airplane except for the general outline-config and wing cross section.(it wasn't just solely simply 'slap the 60-series in derrrr')Merlin engines used in the P-40F and P-40L were single-stage supercharger XX-series
Just use thishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesselman_engine
>>65319714Why didn't it take off?
>>65304959Godspeed and don't forget to post images on /diy/
>>65304089My favourite thing about them are the stories of how insane their power output is with the governor removed
>>65314991Weight I guess
>>65301225It's a performance thingSqueezing out max performance eventually fucks every engine.
