in the age of body-armour5.56 just doesn't cut it anymore
yes it does
do we need to switch back to 7,62?this would also simplify logistics - allowing riflemen to interchange their ammo with the Machine Gunner
>>65320035HGK 36 can barely penetrate mudwall at 300 yardshow do you expect it to pierce kevlar?
>>65320033>the age of body-armourMay we see it?
.300 SwissAP exisits nd you are all deadmen walking.
>>65320062surehere you go
What the fuck kinda temu /bag/ thread is this.1. M855 will go through most all-HDPE plates like a hot knife through butter.2. M193 goes through most steel plates damn well if going 3,250ft/s.3. M855A1 will go through both of those.4. M995 will get you through most plates below Level IV.5. SIG's 97gr high pressure Hydracore AP will bust Level IV and ESAPI reliably.5.56 with the correct loads and proper velocity will pierce any plate up to but still below an XSAPI. Nobody but the US actually has a stock of tungsten AP rated plates that won't be exhausted in five minutes.
>>65320074That carrier looks a bit low.
>>65320042you're retarded. kevlar isn't the problem and a mudwall (of indeterminate thickness) at range isn't remotely close to armor.
>>65320042>KevlarAre you retarded? Kevlar isn't stopping anything but slow 9mm.
>>65320033Sure it does. Setting aside that 5.56 remains one of the best penetrating rounds that doesn't have massive retarded downsides and also plates dont cover shit but the heart and lungs and only from the direct front and back, you arent shooting people once (youre shooting them till they go down, either by beating the plate apart or by getting around it), youre not shooting people alone (you have 3-12 other guys also shooting at the target and his friends), and you're not shooting people at long range (that's for MGs, vehicles and artillery). Within that context, 5.56 remains best in class.
>>65320033Exactly. >Turns neck and dick into ground hamburger in your way
>>65320095>>65320100my mistakethought carrier plates were using kevlar as wellbut I always thought modern helmets were designed to withstand rifle rounds on longer distances as wellkinda demoralizing ngl. even ww2 helmets could stop pistol calibers (at the right angle) so what's the point?
>>65320093complaining about PC height is like complaining about trigger discipline. shut the fuck up.
>>65320033Is there really any body armor that will consistently stop a 5,56 but not a 7,62?
>>65320117> and you're not shooting people at long rangei saw a youtube video where some guy was shooting a Level IV Plate at a range of 30 meters and it failed to penetrate
>>65320138Like all SRTs bro
>>65320150You're gonna need very special 5.56 to bust a IV reliably. They're rated for .30-06 M2AP at 2,910ft/s. Much larger, much more energetic penetrator.
>>65320136>thought carrier plates were using kevlar as wellnope. the rifle rated armor is ceramic or UHMWPE.>but I always thought modern helmets were designed to withstand rifle rounds on longer distances as wellkevlar can do that at long range but it's inconsistent and even non armor-piercing steel core rounds will still go through. and the more modern helmets that can stop it are made out of UHMWPE too.
>>65320158>>65320088you seem to know a lot on this topicwhere can I read more on this?
>>65320160>ceramicyea rightas if a fucking vase was going to stop a bullet
>>65320162I'm one of several armor autists over in /gq/, we have infographics. Many infographics on this topic. See the links in the second post.>>65298849
>>65320174'emmythx
>>65320183No problem. If you have any armor questions in general the people in /gq/ will be happy to deal. It's the last place on the open internet without shills on the topic.
>>65320136>thought carrier plates were using kevlar as wellHave you never fucking heard of rifle plates? What are you even doing here?
>>65320035>yes it doesYeah, it really does. OP is a fucking retard.
>>65320194Chill on him brah, he's clearly a newb. Ceramic plates sometimes use kevlar or other aramid family fibers in the backer. My Protech 2230s for example. Plates are one of three flavors.1. steel or titanium2. Ceramic3. HDPECeramics are at minimum two parts. A ceramic strike face and then a polyethylene, aramid, or fiberglass backer. PE is best generally but aramid can be very stout. Fiberglass sucks and is 60s tech.
>>65320194>Have you never fucking heard of rifle platesno I am ESLI read that there are plates that use kevlar - which might be wrongand assumed that all plate carriers use kevlar which i now know is wrong
>>65320033>>65320037A perfectly adequate NATO cartridge for GPMGs, 'battle rifles' and long range marksmanship has existed for 130+ years and i will fight and die on this hill: 6mm Lee Navy.
>>65320203Those are those OLD 1990s pressed aramid plates. They work and can be bought cheap but lose to real easy shit like mild steel core 7.62x39, among the easiest of rifle threats.These are no longer made for good reason. I have two and man they look roached, but the shit works.
>>65320203There is Kevlar in some rifle plates, but it is not what's stopping the projectile in a plate rated for rifle threats. It does other stuff like keeps the plate together when it's shot multiple times, make the plate more drop safe and impact resistant, or preventing back face deformation. Generally, when people say Kevlar, they are referring to soft armor, which is only rated for certain pistol calibers. A rifle caliber like 5.56 will fly right through it. Rifle plates use other materials, primarily ceramic or polyethylene, and certain 5.56 loads can even defeat a lot of them, depending on the plate, bullet and distance.
>>65320221The kevlar catches fragments after they penetrate the ceramic strike face. For many but not all "ICW" non-standalone plates, the plates are thinned out enough the fragments will actually penetrate the plates to be caught by your soft armor.
>>65320238>Kevlar stops 556 as long as you put a ceramic plate in front of itStop being pedantic.
>>65320260Well if you forget the soft armor the round will still penetrate, hence why people really don't like ICW plates anymore.Even the latest GEN-IV ESAPI and GEN-I LSAPI are fully standalone.
>>65320273>the armor specifically designed to be thin and light and work with soft armor wouldn't work without the soft armorNo shit, they're literally designed to work in a iiia vest. You're being incredibly autistic.
>>65320136>thought modern helmets were designed to withstand rifle rounds on longer distances as wellNo, they never have been. They're meant for shrapnel. UHMWPE helmets stopping the occasional 7.62 at 600 meters like a shitty level 3 plate is a fortuitous bonus not a design spec.Armor pen in general is a neat autistic rabbithole, but completely meaningless for military professionals. At long range everyone is behind cover and hits are statistically random all over your body. At point blank, plates can save you from the first shot from a lower-skill opponent being lazy if you were too slow to hit first, but professionals are shooting for the face from the start, and everyone will be spamming shots over your whole body nonstop until one or the other side dies.
>>65320395this anon gets it
>>65320294>How ICW works is turbo autisticarmor 102
>>65320035Ron Cohen btfo>>65320042Mudwall is packed and hardened mud, as the name suggests (it's like shooting adobe, stucco, bricks almost). The kind of thick mudwalls you might see in Afghanistan would legit be hard to defeat with 7.62mm and even .50BMG at times, shit is just dense and hard, it's like shooting into the ground but if it was hardened.Meanwhile, 5.56mm will annihilate basically any kevlar (soft armor) you could imagine.
>>65320088if thats true why did the army decide to create an entirely new weapon platform and cartridge? not being a smartass just genuinely curious
>>65320221>>65320238You should listen to this guy.
>>65320042IFV autocannons struggle to pen Afghan mudwall. It's thick reinforced dirt haha, guns don't stand a chance.
>>65320408Because 6.8 will do the same as I just said but at much greater distances and against newer, higher grades of body armor.Head on Youtube and watch Buffman RANGE shoot a Militech RF2 Alumina and it stop twenty hits of M855A1. Can it stop 6.8 XM1186? Hell no chief.The benefit of 6.8 is that it compares to 7.62x51mm penetration, a class beyond 5.56, with less weight and out of shorter barrels. I don't think it's a sound investment and more can be done with less - higher pressure 5.56 like HICAR.>>65320413The kevlar is what actually stops the bullet with an ICW plate. The plate just breaks it up and weakens it so the kevlar can do so.A IIIA panel is 30-35 layers of Aramid. M193 by itself can pierce over 150.
>>65320408Serious answer: the boomer gravelbelly meme of big calibers doing slow aimed shots at long range against completely exposed targets. It was a massive cultural movement in the mid last century, spawned by the Boer War era meta of smokeless powder but no high explosives, and legitimized by an American meme about le Kentucky militia rifleman. WW2 and Korea changed the game, Stoner kicked that meme in the balls with the M16, and the millennials put in in the grave with GWOT, but it snuck through the bureucratic loopholes at the last minute through a series of coincidences. Penning armor wasn't a real legitimate reason. It was the excuse after long range for afghanistan expired, which was the excuse after stoppan' power during Iraq was busted, and all of these reasons were just rationalizations for le big boolet with big recoil aimed at long range against stationary targets with no cover. Google General Mattis' squad lethality initiative. That was what the ICSR boomers latched onto to give their meme a second life.
>>65320443>this is not a serious answer, he's fukkin' around, and is immediately disproved by the existence of 6.8 XM1184 tungsten AP.
>>65320033you use that SCHV ..22-250 .222 rem high accuracy Shooting club pedigree and shoot everyone in the neck, head, femoral artery and pelvis
>>65320088>3,250ft>everyones using faggot ass 11 inch barrels or 14.5syoud need those snake oil 80/100k PSI alloy case loads to get 20/24inch barrel 220 swift performance that youre talking about from a regular M4
>>65320460just use a 20 dude
>>65320464well yesbut every special forces and infantry guy wants or insists on having the smallest barrel possible so they can stick a can on iton regular 5.56instead of just getting a decent flash hider and being able to have an AR thats under 8 lbs since its not piston
>>65320477gis are stupid, fukkem
>>65320460>3,250ft>220 swiftlol, ADD 1000 fps and that'd be accurate
>>65320479every tactical larper who never even served who thinks theyre going to be shooting at anyone organized insists on short 11inch barrels too>>6532048555gr 220 and 22-250 out of a 20 inch is going to be 3300the mach 3.5 stuff is both lighter 40/50gr and out of full length 26 inch barrelshot 243 and 6mm 55/58/60gr get that fast out of 20 inch though
>>65320433130+ years of service, the round you want was made 135+ years ago. .6mm Lee Navy FMJ.
>>65320093For you
>>65320507>tactical larpers use 11"The ONLY instance in which a civilian would conceivably shoot someone with an AR is in self defense on their own property, the vast majority of which would be within one's own home. Why would you need a 16" to ensure enough velocity for bullet tumbling at 200-300 yards for home defense? Are you Jeff Bezos? The people who advocate for 16-20" barrels are fantasizing about shooting people past 200 yards, which is fucking asinine. You're not some sort of boogaloo retard, are you?
>TLDR 6.8 slows down maneuver warfare and will kill American soldiers in LSCO due to poor comprehension of why 5.56 existsBureaucrats didn’t actually think about why 5.56 exists and they fell for the meme that mass-formation line infantry are coming back, but with armorAfghanistan would not have been won with 6.8, nor does penetrating armor really matter in LSCO. The point of an infantryman (in offensive operations) is to suppress other infantry for a long period of time on the approach to a defended position while the mechanized guns kill everything an infantryman can’t. Suppression will inherently reduce the fact that anyone peeks up, 120mm-rated plates or not, they are not risking a bullet outside of a plate. Try being on the receiving side of high-volume gunfire for once and you’ll see why, plates or not, you’re not risking itThe problem here is the range overmatch of 6.8 comes with the price of less ammo per man, but due weight and volume. To use the range advantage of 6.8, you have to suppress with less ammo over a greater distance on the approach, and all of a sudden either the volume suffers (risking defenders getting cocky and returning fire, suppressing or killing your own troops) or you don’t have sufficient ammo when you reach the site. This also requires more frequent resupplies because more of less ammo is used per assault. It’s a temporal problem, not spatial; 5.56 was largely an optimal and economical solution based on lessons learned in the last major warInfantrymen are not fighting BMPs with 6.8 or whatever extremely niche fantasy exists, either. Bradleys are fighting BMPs while infantry suppress short-range anti-tank teams and whatever vehicle wins that duel (typically Bradley kek) will almost certainly clean the floor with the rest. Bradley’s will fight ATGM teams long before 6.8’s range advantage becomes a relevant factorEveryone is ignoring pre-assault fires too, which is fucking crazy. Just issue M995 and rape the trench
>>65320817Ran out of charactersFurthermore, issuing fancy explosives is better for defeating a defender because guns see guns, but explosives risk an arm and they typically negate any plate by obliterating organs and/or limbs. If you actually need to keep the objective intact, just go for M995 or upcoming high-velocity loads that kill things just as gooder at <50m as 6.8. You don’t have to have superhitler 9000jewtoespersecond rounds loaded 100% of the time if you’re concerned about barrel wear; battle drills already exist to prepare other weapon systems and loading a situational magazine isn’t different6.8 is a very retarded decision and SF has already made their statement by saying fuck it and looking at the HICAR program. Big army will follow suit, eventually
>>65320710jeff bezos' LA mansion property isnt that bigand you would get a 16 inch because you dont have to fill out paper work or get a fucking muzzle brake that fucking extends it out to 16 inches
>>65320817>Afghanistan would not have been wonthe fuck are you talking aboutthe taliban just waited out the US until they got bored while occasionally taking opportunistic potshots and IED setups
>>653208176.8 doesnt even accomplish thatbecause theyre all using faggot ass 12 inch barrels like this faggot >>65320710 likes shoving up his ass that practically turns all their m7s into heavier shittier 6.5 creedmoor guns with 6 moa
>>65320847Afghanistan is (was?) frequently cited as a reason why 6.8 exists, because le Taliban outranged US troops’ small arms (not the aircraft or vehicles but that’s an inconvenient truth)I completely agree with you, for the record. It’s just one of the early arguments I remember to justify 6.8>>65320861CorrectEach fix makes the whole program more retarded
>>65320867werent people getting 700 yard kills with 77grs?
>>65320873Probably, but again we need to ignore that because a general needs a retirement job and some junior generals need promotion points
Standard issue infantry body armor does not cover the whole body. Plenty of vital areas like face, neck, brachial artery (upper arm), groin and femoral artery (upper tighs) are not usually protected. Any shot in those areas will likely result in death.Even armored areas are not immune to incapacitating damage. A shot in the helmet will probably result in a concussion, skull fracture or cervical damage. A shot in the chest or back can cause broken ribs, punctured lungs, spinal damage and even heart concussion. Those are severe injuries that will put anyone out of the fight and require urgent medical attention.
>>65320033The primary weapon in the last hundred-plus years has been high-explosive/fragmentation, not bullets. And body armor can't cover everything, just the core organs.The proper answer is a PDW or carbine with guided and/or airbursting HE.
>>65320867With their superior 7.62x39?
>>65320033It's just needs more velocity.
>>65320867The Soviets fixed the range problem 60 years ago with the SVD. And they simply recycled a century old cartidge that is 7,62x54R. I'll take an SVD over some retarded 6,8 SBR or M7 any day of the week.FFS, just having a lighter M14 and fixing the accuracy issues whould have sufficed.
>>65320138fucking loads. LvL3 for starters. Isnt rated for 556M855, but is rated 762M80 ball. Speed kills armor.
>>65320926Even 6.5 Grendel beats 308 for hits and energy at long range so it's not really true an improved m14 would be adequate
>>65320395In USMC bootcamp even, not even combat training, you do failure drills where you shoot the enemy in the chest and then sternum. Literal POG comms guys are taught how to beat Lvl4 plates.
>>65320408Because army ordinance is fucking retarded. 6.8mm will get more men killed than do any kind of good. Its the M14 2.0 and the m14 was absolute shit. Its a weapon designed for an army that doesnt exist, to kill an enemy that doesnt exist.
>>65320930.308 is perfectly adequate for combat shots up to 800m. At this distance you're basically shooting to pin the enemy behind cover and keep heads down. 308 is perfectly fine for this and does not require to develop a whole new platform and is already well integrated in the logistics system.
>>65320926We fixed it to with DMR rifles. Took us a lot longer than the soviets, but its a solved issue.
>>65320922Don’t ask me to explain retards’ opinions. I think they meant x54 (in what gun?), but still a retarded justification
>>65320946That's what I'm saying. The range issue is solved and the average grunt does not need to be able to shoot sub-MOA groups at 600m to do his job.
>>65320088If you're clearing a room A1 is great. Now shoot it in the situations that led to them calling for a new round in the first place.
>>65320937It's true, but better still for many reasons would be to rebarrel some team members kit to 6.5 grendel and they can be the ones spraying at 45 degrees
>>65320951My opinion, and I thought it was extremely obvious and everyone knew, was that Chinese soldiers will all have plates, all their rifles will be able to penetrate plates so the army shat bricks and quickly chose a hotter round. Sig won because of all the dodgy connections, but 223 wouldn't have done at any case. It's good for varmints but not fighting a peer force
>>65320088>5. SIG's 97gr high pressure Hydracore AP will bust Level IV and ESAPI reliably.lmao you're so full of shit it's unbelievable.
>>65320985I'm guessing it probably would
A carbide steel needle at 8 million fps can penetrate anything make it happen
>>65320985It has a substantial sectional density advantage over 7.62x51 M993, dumbass, and goes 2,500ft/s out of an 11.5 because it's over 80k psi.Run it out of a 20" if the opposing plates are especially stiff.>>65321005SIG is very explicit it will.
>>65320958Man I love the sound of HICAR. Let's take M855A1 and make it go faster so it has more effective range out of a shorter barrel!
>>65321101Soldiers should run 20 inch and run over barrel suppressors. Lazy bastards wanting super short rifles because they're lighter
>>65320929That's not the case. Speed alone only kills steel.1. Steel Level III easily handles M855. It loses to M193. Adept Armor has a very good article explaining why.2. PE Level III loses to M855, beats M193 even though it's a third the weight of steel.Level III ceramics will do both.>>65320895You are not getting reliable behind armor blunt trauma out of a 5.56 unless the plates are extremely deficient, especially at combat distance.
>>65321116There should be HICAR DMRs is what I'm saying, or make the M7 / M8 a DMR and give it a long schlong if you need better terminal ballistics / need more barrier authority / need more core mass if the opposing armor is especially stiff (XSAPI class or above).China has plates rated for 12.7x108mm B-32 API once, they're nine pounds and 1.44" thick, and with new developments like B4C-Al+AlN ceramic will drop into the 7lb range which is very reasonable. Might need .338 Norma for that.
>>65321101> It has a substantial sectional density advantage over 7.62x51 M993Oh shit you are right
>>65320074>Burger mutts think they can hide their 300 pounds bodies behind such tiny plate
>>65321125Even with the plate it might disable the man if he's hit and that's really the objective after all
>>65320074>does nothing to protect your stomach where, if hit, will 100% doom you and make you die very painfullyexplain this modern retardation?
>>65320926>M14that worthless piece of shit is scrap metal
>>65321205Watch this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I&>>65321221He doesn't know what a dangler is, and yes, you can get them rifle rated. If you have ergonomic concerns then buy a IIIA skirt from Jinwudun, hike it up, and wears plates over that.>>65321136Hate SIG all you want, this 5.56 AP gets to play with cheat codes because it runs pissing hot.
>>65321186>organs get bigger as your body gains fatFucking Europeon retard trash.
>>65321234>m16Fixed.
>>65320093It's honestly wild how few people understand proper strike face placement. Like news flash retard, your aortic arch is a lot more important to protect than your pancreas or liver or whatever. One will kill you in hours if shot, one will kill you in seconds to minutes.
>>65321284>t. Doesn't own any m1a variant
>>65320926>The Soviets fixed the range problem 60 years ago with the SVD.Yes, the US has also used 7.62mm DMRs for a very long time now (and much better ones), the NGSW program is merely a scam.
>>65321136For anyone curious, the sectional density values are 0.289 for the 97gr Hydracore 5.56 super AP and only 0.203 for 7.62x51mm M99397gr and 5.56 versus 128gr and 7.62.More modern 7.62 APs are as follows:1. 7.62x51 DM151 is 0.2372. Nammo AP11LR, successor to M993 in Euro environments, is 0.269.3. 7.62x51 Swiss P AP is 0.311 (note this is majority lead)4. 7.62x54R 7N37 is 0.298. Note that this is majority tungsten carbide so it does HEAVILY outperform Swiss P AP.5. Current 7.62x54R 7N51, successor to 7N37, is estimated 0.343.Neither 7N37 or 7N51 are available in serious quantities, but will take the vast majority of plates to church.6. A hypothetical 7.62x51 version of the SIG Hydracore AP is 231gr and has a resulting sectional density of 0.367, making it a real motherfucker.7. DSG XMP 308gr super-long-core 7.62x51 AP has a sectional density of 0.489, but is down big time on velocity which results in lower kinetic energy density.DSG XMP + 7.62x51 version of HICAR in an AR-10 would result in a round beyond the capability of 99.9% of plates. Said round however is impractical and unaffordable, making it a neat footnote.
>>65320070Gilliam 8002 IV++ plate says hello, motherfucker! https://www.gilliamarms.com/products/model-8002-max-heavy-tungsten-rf3-silicon-carbide-ceramic-armor-plate?
>>65320033Just shoot them in the dick.
>>65321485The Chinese now have plates protecting the dick! and the balls! You can now protect your bloodline with a whole ass 10x12!https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256807798585543.html?
5.56 didn't cut it in GWOT either, when guys high on opium would take shots. Many demanded higher calibre rounds to take them out. 5.56 exists because US was scared that the .270/.280 British was going to become the general round, so they had to kill it and they killed it by making the 5.56 and forcing everybody to use it. You're all welcome to look up the dodgy Garand deals and shit around it. Now we've come full circle, except 6.8 Sneedmore and Fury are not really the .270/.280 British taken to the levels they could have been had they been adopted back then and worked on.
>>65321516>5.56 didn't cut it in GWOT eitherYes it did, you mercury poisoned boomer retard.
>>65321516>it's a zoomer spouting garbled boomer fuddlore disproved longer than I've been aliveRead the 2003 powerpoints on M855 green tip stopping power, especially in M249s. Soldiers rated it very, very good. After all, it fragmented most of the time, which was instantly better than a generic M80 FMJ icepick from their M240s. And now M855A1 and M80A1 exist which fragment 100% of the time within their velocity bands.
>>65321574M855 was a nonsensical downgrade from M193 thoughbeit
>>653200335.56 out a 22in barrel with a hardened steel core would absolutely cut it, better than .308 or .30-06. The primary factor in armor penetration is projectile velocity.
>>65321615Botpost. Velocity only applies directly to steel armor. Larger penetrators are more effective versus PE and ceramic type armor. See >>65320088
>>65321642The density and tensile strength of the core is also an issue. I'm not saying its the best option available I'm saying it performs better against most targets than the other widely available options without the sacrifices most of those require. Once again the primary factor is velocity, then comes everything else and frankly you can apply most of those other factors to a variety of ammo simply by changing the internal structure and composition of the bullet.The army will just have to deal with the fact that making barrels long once more is a better option than bullshit high chamber pressures.
>>65321555>pic>comparing soft-tissue fleshwounds to wounds where bullets clearly strike bone and shatter everything to shitRetarded. I've seen more than enough forensic documents, photos, and autopsy reports to know that the specific caliber used in any one of these photos isn't relevant.Any one of these wounds could have been caused by everything from .22Hornet or .30carbine to .375H&H.The exact cartridge used doesn't really matter when discussing rifle wounds to humans. In 90% of real life practical scenarios they all perform more or less the same.What matters far more in these situations is if the projectiles hits soft tissue and ice-pics straight through, or if they hits bone and shatter everything to shit.Excluding fancy (militarily prohibited) varmint ammo that can do some funky shit, pretty much all intermediate and full-power rifle calibers will have similar effects on humans.Humans simply aren't large enough, don't have enough meat for factors like exact bullet diameter, BC, twist rate, stability, tumbling, etc to matter.Even the most unstable and tumble-prone high velocity shit doesn't perform much better than plain old m43 ball against human flesh and bone.Not enough to actually matter in the grand scheme of things.Any given rifle ammo in current military use is more than deadly enough.The military has other, far more pressing concerns in mind when selecting cartridges.
>>65321652You're still thinking everything is steel. If you want to pop plates actually used by militaries worldwide outside of desperado situations, you need larger cores.Yes, velocity matters, but a 7.62x51mm 148gr hardened steel AP will massively outperform a 5.56x45mm 62gr hardened steel AP even if the 5.56 has a substantial velocity advantage.7.62x51mm M61 AP for example is well beyond all non-tungsten 5.56 AP and even sidegrades M995. 7.62x54R B-32 API is also steel and many B-32 API plates can also defeat M995 or even better APs like 5.45 7N39, depending on the precise ceramic.
>>65321652For reference, M995's nominal velocity is 3,400ft/s and even at that spec it loses to many Level IV plates and later-revision ESAPIs rated specifically to beat .30-06 M2AP at 2,910ft/s. Despite a nearly 500ft/s advantage, the 5.56 AP is inferior.If a Level IV is boron carbide or steel, however, then unique failure mechanisms emerge which make M995 superior.
>>65321574That there's M14brained boomers demanding .277 Furry when M855A1 and M80A1 exist is astonishing. Truly the dementia has set it hard.
>>65320395>professionals are shooting for the face from the start, and everyone will be spamming shots over your whole body nonstop until one or the other side dies.What a depressing world you live in. You must not even have a cloak.
>>65321466Like anyone would buy from an UNQUALIFIED garage tier alcoholic. Harumph.
>>65321699I'm camp HICAR, but there's no denying XM1186 and XM1184 mog M855A1 and the cancelled 5.56 ADVAP in terms of penetration.Is the juice however worth the squeeze? I don't think so. Just make a HICAR-XL in 7.62x51mm and run M1158+ with a nice 300-400ft/s bonus for the rare occasions you need to bust turbo XSAPIs. You can still use regular 7.52x51 and take advantage of enhanced terminal ballistics all the same from + spec HICAR ammo too. A beefed up M80A1 or +P TMK should be nasty. >>65321709UNEQUAL ball knowledge.
>>65321710Listen you /gq/ autist. Gilliam has now moved from his GARAGE to his WAREHOUSE and now offers WAREHOUSING SERVICES for other companies that don't have legit business addresses *cough* fucking Adept *cough*
>>65321715WAREHOUSE is just a garage without a HOUSE attached to it. What a MISNOMER.
>>65321725That is UNEQUAL. It is a SECURE commercial facility in NORTH CAROLINA.>Gilliam Arms offers secure indoor warehousing and drop-shipping services to fellow ballistic armor manufacturers from our climate-controlled facility on the Crystal Coast of North Carolina. Whether you're a domestic manufacturer looking to position inventory closer to your East Coast customers, or an international supplier in need of a U.S.-based fulfillment partner, our conditioned warehouse space provides a clean, temperature-stable environment purpose-suited to ceramic plates, UHMWPE backers, soft armor panels, and finished hard armor. Stored goods remain in your inventory; we provide the four walls, the climate control, and the hands-on-d*ck.https://www.gilliamarms.com/pages/for-manufacturers?
>>65321713Militaries have a whole lot of practical concerns that don't seem obvious from an outside perspective.Performance against flesh or armor plating matters less to them than you'd think.One recent example would be the Swedes. They were debating if they should stick to 5.56 or switch to 7.62 NATO for their standard select-fire infantry rifles.A select-fire AR-10 variant was originally favored due to impressive-looking specs and good performance on paper.After a year of testing, the 7.62 AR-10 battle rifle project was on life-support, everyone was favoring a 5.56mm carbine, which did get selected as the new standard service rifle despite originally being intended as a PDW for POGs.During testing it turned out each rifle had strengths and weaknesses that weren't immediately evident when just comparing ballistics data on an chart. Shocking, I know.For example:Training recruits to get proficient with the 7.62 rifles took up to 3 times longer than training troops to shoot the 5.56 rifle.Even then, the vast majority of troops who'd received all this extra training never got close to the novice 5.56 shooters in terms of actually landing shots on their intended targets under simulated combat conditions.The increased training time and more expensive ammo meant that training with the 7.62 rifle was around 6 times more expensive per recruit, and said recruits would be much slower to get into action, and miss almost every shot in an actual combat scenario.Choosing the 5.56 meant that troops would be cheaper, they'd be more plentiful, they'd all carry far more ammo, and they'd all have far better odds of actually hitting what they were shooting at.Despite performing far worse against armor, troop carrying the "sissy little poodle-shooters" would be far more effective in combat than their costly and numerically inferior 7.62 counterparts, who'd be blowing their limited supply of expensive high-testosterone AP rounds directly into the dirt.
>>65321801And that's part of the reason why I'm camp HICAR and not camp NGSW. Just take 5.56, beef it up, and split the difference between normal 5.56 and real fuckin' NATO. I agree with your sentiments on all counts.I'm in favor of a "HICAR 5.56 / .338 Norma" mix which is what USSOCOM is currently doing. If you need anti-materiel work the advantages of .338 Norma are undeniable versus even 7.62x51mm or .300 Winmag and it's much easier to move than a .50. Modern XM1224, XM1214, and M1162 / M1163 provide a solid selection of ammo for anti-materiel, multi-purpose, normal AP, and normal ammo. Last I checked XM1224 has the muscle to defeat even many .50 caliber plates like the 8.8lb / 1.44" thick one the Chinese are now selling commercially.Regular situations can get by with M855A1+ (which will clear basic DBP87 or even DBP10-rated Chinese plates, and the Special-type Type 56 7.62x54R API rated ones if you can get two hits reasonably tight - in other words, just magdump the fuck) and if you really need to fight dudes in CQB wearing especially stout and/or high coverage armor and can't just spam frags like the Ukrainians then roll the 97gr SIG shit.SOCOM does have other rounds. They have a 6mm ARC AP which is supposedly very good and then fancy stuff in .300 PRC and other calibers.Pic related is the current state of play for Chinese armor, absent a couple items like plates from Adept, Gilliam, and a few models only sold domestically in China by guys like Norinco.
>>65321801For infantry, being able to send a higher volume of fire for longer periods is more important than individual hit effectiveness.7,62 rounds weight nearly double 5,56 rounds, which means soldiers can carry half as much ammo, have less rounds per magazines, need to resupply twice as often and so on. It's a whole logistical cascade. Considering about 90% of shots will be area suppression, cover fire, or just blind mag dumping in the general direction of the enemy some 300m away, having more ammo matters way more than being able to penetrate level IV armor in one hit.
>>65321713>I'm not a fan of 6.8x51 but would be fine with 7.62x51I can't wrap my head around this logic, 6.8 is superior to 7.62x51 in every metric.
>>653218906.8 is very high pressure and caused increased parts wear for very little benefit. and the benefit it does have is already done my existing cartridges.
>>65321901>parts wearNegated by proper design and materials.>for very little benefit>and the benefit it does have is already done my existing cartridgesOh you are just being retarded, got it.
>>65321912>Negated by proper design and materials.no, it doesn't. the barrels are burning out faster than they should, and there's no way to stop it.>Oh you are just being retarded, got it.no, that's you for not knowing what you're talking about.
>>65321922>the barrels are burning out faster than they should, and there's no way to stop it.It's called modern materials and rifling designs.>that's you for not knowing what you're talking aboutIronic given you think having long barreled velocities in short barrels as well as not having the ballistics of a potato is not a benefit.
>>65321934>It's called modern materials and rifling designs.no it's not. modern materials aren't magic, they still wear out.>having long barreled velocities in short barrels as well as not having the ballistics of a potato is not a benefit.it's not a benefit if your barrel is burnt out in 4000 rounds.you're a retard and you don't know what you're talking about.
>>65321890Because there is a huge existing 7.62x51 stockpile of ammo and guns and if push comes to shove 7.62x51 can fit a larger penetrator
>>65321944I swear the burnout time gets shorter every time you little niggers post.
>>65321922Barrel wear is not really an issue for the US military. Barrel wear is only an issue for civilians who don't want to spend 3000$ on a new rifle every 5000 shots. For the army barrels and rifles are considered consumable items and many of them will need replacement before the barrel wears out anyway.The real issue is reliability. More pressure needs heavier materials to handle it, increased risk of case rupture or mechanical issues.
>>65321954Unfortunately >>65321944 is correct. Yes, you can throw modern materials at the problem to slow wear down but it's not a silver bullet.
>>65321958No anon 6.8x51 barrels do not burn out in 4000 rounds.
>>65321961They do however wear faster, which is the point.Unrelated, I swear these threads are engagement bait because I see none of you people in the generals.
>>65321957>Barrel wear is not really an issue for the US militaryyes it is, dumbass. you can't have your rifles wearing out prematurely in the middle of combat.>>65321961keep coping, sigger.
If the US is logistically pressed in a total war against China it is not going to be able to keep up with 6.8 demands and will have to fall back on the 5.56 and 7.62 stockpiles.The whole 6.8 thing is stupid and HICAR mogs it by being reverse compatible.
>>65321966>They do however wear faster, which is the pointAh yes 9500 rounds instead of 10000 rounds, that 500 rounds totally outweighs a lighter + more compact gun while having flatter trajectories that retain velocity better.
>>65320033If theyre doing the whole bi-metal case thing anyway at like 90k psi why not just extend 5.56 case by like 5mm, make it 90k psi, heavier projectile with more case capacity and giga fucked psi?
>>65321987HICAR is using Federal's PEAK alloy single piece case.
>>65321967>you can't have your rifles wear out prematurely in the middle of combatReal life are not videogames where rifles suddenly become unusable after X amount of shots retard. Accuracy degrades over time and even a shot out barrel will deliver 5-6 MOA which is still acceptable accuracy for most general infantry applications.
>>65321982That's tertiary, the existing 7.62 stockpile is more important and the M7's costs could have been better spent on HICAR but 7.62 for DMRs.>>65322007It's still a logistical issue as barrels wear out.
>>65322023sunk cost fallacy and you are glossing over how if the M8/M250 have a fractionally shorter barrel life that that causing logistical issues would mean something was already seriously wrong
>we have lots of 7.62x51 therefore we cannot adopt a modern cartridge to replace it
>>65322035Several million rounds of ammo =/= sunk cost. The M7 / M8 are however sunk costs.
>>65321890Performance is not meaningfully better, while costing a lot to implement, and will wear out barrels much quicker.This is worse than people who think .224 Valkyrie should replace 5.56mm because it's a tiny bit more optimal.
>>65322040Yeah it's called higher pressure 7.62x51, lol. You got stock in SIG or something?
>>65322040If only they kept this mindset with .30-06
>>65322053Which 7.62x51 actually provides meaningful improvement on, Mr. Cohen.
>>65322047That's not how it works, lil nigger.
>>65321954The threshold for an M4A1 barrel replacement is between 7,500 and 10,000 rounds, what about barrel life being reduced to 4,000 rounds for a super high pressure cartridge shot from a support weapon (i.e. mostly bursts) sounds so unreasonable?
>>65322063>slightly shorter case>slightly worse velocity>slightly less recoilThe gap between .277 and 5.56 is far greater than .30-06 and .308
>>65321912>Negated by proper design and materialsI'll remind you that civilian life hunters slow shooting similar calibers can expect them to last for 5000rds maximum, even with the best kinds of barrels you can get, which is something they stretch out over many years.For a machinegun, you're easily going to run 100rds very quickly in one combat engagement, your job as a gunner is to lay down a LOT of suppressive fire. The bore erosion is gonna be magnitudes faster, even when you AREN'T doing full retard 85k PSI loads (I dread to imagine how short the barrel lifespan is on Sig's XM250).I doubt you'd get much farther beyond 3000rds before the barrel gives out on any GPMG rebarreled for 6.8mm, and for what performance gains?>>65322040Which is an actual legit argument, because you'd be spending a shitload of money on retooling ammunition production, for a cartridge which will be more expensive to use, and all modest improvements in performance.There's nothing that a 6.8mm GPMG can do which the conventional 7.62mm GPMG doesn't already do at a much lower cost.
>>653220724000rds is a very generous estimate.Again, modern commercial top of the line rifles in these kinds of calibers are still at a ceiling of 5000rds with very gentle use, while the XM5 has its bore raped by around 2000rds of the normal pressure training ammo, and that's not even a support weapon.
>>65321972Total nonsense when people say things like this.The government retains the power and authority to commandeer industry vital for defense. They'd throw retard amount of money at people.You're only talking about something as simple as an ammunition cartridge too. Sig would have no trouble with changing their own production and licensing out.
>>65322108>The government retains the power and authority to commandeer industry vital for defenseRussia and Ukraine are in a state of actual major conflict and they're both buying plates from China. The average dude on Arfcom has better armor than anybody in Ukraine except the hardass SSO dudes.When industry is destroyed you can't use it for the war effort.>You're only talking about something as simple as an ammunition cartridge too.And plates can be made in someone's garage. Strike face, backer, adhesive, wrap.
>>65322044>Performance is not meaningfully betterOh no it's retarded.>>65322047>SIG SIG SIG SIG6.8x51 is a creation of the Army, but thanks for letting us know your motivations are driving by irrational behavior.>>65322053They actually did, it is one of the primary reasons the Army never adopted .276 Pedersen after WW1.
>>65322072It's interesting how you keep insisting barrel life is 4000 rounds.
>>65322148>are driving by irrational behavior.saaaaaaaarHICAR is also a military program. Actual argument please Mr. Cohen.
.556 has never won a war and everytime it was against adversaries NOT wearing body armor. You can take this a couple ways.
>>65322150It's the first time I've posted the figure, I just don't find it unreasonable and multiple people in the thread are explaining why.
>>65322063>Which 7.62x51 actually provides meaningful improvement on, Mr. Cohen.It had almost identical performance and would still be in use by the US military if not for it being adopted because it gave NATO countries a common cartridge.
>>65322148>Oh no it's retardedLess core mass than 7.62x51mm and same thing can be done with hybrid case 7.62x51mm.>but that weighs more!!!!by a hair and the 6.8 still weighs more than 5.56. A lot more.You fuckers do realize 6.8 weight is so bad they're actually making the close combat force's plates weaker to compensate, right? LSAPIs are replacing ESAPIs and they're comparatively flimsy as shit. China's gonna pop that crap with basic DBP191
>>65322165Almost identical AND it's shorter AND it weighs less.
>>65322152HICAR is a SOCOM project, and just like their other rifles it will only be used in small quantities. Not that you care as your comments are not driven by the needs of the US military.
>>65322174>Not that you care as your comments are not driven by the needs of the US military.Neither are yours, we're on 4chan chief.
Embrace the 9mm/6.8/338/50cal doctrine
>>65322171>discussion is replacing 7.62x51 with the new 6.8 round>b-b-b-but both are heavier than 5.56!!!You have no argument and are now grasping.
>>65322171>less core massOh no a 120grain projectile vs a 130grain projectile, those 10 grains totally make up for 7.62x51 being a ballistic potato.>same thing can be done with hybrid case 7.62x51mmMaking 7.62x51 higher pressure does not fix its fundamental design shortcomings.>ESAPI is being replaced with LSAPI because of 6.8x51 and not because ESAPI is heavy and bulkyAbsolute cope.
>>65322181Mr. Cohen, this thread is about 5.56 in the age of body armor if you actually looked at the op and didn't get called in.
>>65322178one anon is discussing military cartridges and the other is ranting about India and SIG, we are indeed on 4chan
>>65322197>ESAPI is being replaced with LSAPI because of 6.8x51 and not because ESAPI is heavy and bulkyESAPI GEN-IV is 5lb flat and now standalone. Its performance is superb and yet the CCF, the dudes simultaneously getting the M8, are getting LSAPIs at best rated for BZ API and not even their own M1186. >Making 7.62x51 higher pressure does not fix its fundamental design shortcomings.I like how you're dodging the stockpile issue. We can't manufacture shit anymore, I'm sorry. If we're in a total war then the ability to use ammo we've already got matters more than incremental improvements.
>>65322201>admitting you were not following the discussionIt started here btw >>65321890
>>65322205Somebody got caught with CP or something blew up in Russia. These NGSW arguments are like clockwork.HICAR is the better program. If it succeeds then it could expand beyond SOCOM to big army once people realize the M8 is a jackass elephant.
>>65322210>I like how you're dodging the stockpile issue. We can't manufacture shit anymoreWe manufacture millions of rounds of small arms ammunition every year.
>>65322211Mr. Cohen, look at the op. >>65320033I know the thread got hijacked but you're dodging 6.8 vs 5.56 because you're arguing in bad faith, Mr. Cohen. Pretending it's ONLY 6.8 and 7.62 is ignoring half the discussion.
>>65322219Yes, and that's all common commercial calibers and not 6.8. We can retool but that takes time.
>>65322220>"Fuck I'm losing the argument, better try to change the subject."The funny part of your ranting about SIG is that you think it matters to them whether the Army buys 5.56 or 6.8x51 rifles.
>>65322224It's literally just Lake City alone (which is making 6.8x51 now) and not accounting for civilian manufacturers.
>>65322228Mr Cohen we're on 4chan, I do not give two shits if you walk away or not with a slightly higher stock price.You're ignoring 5.56 vs 6.8 however and that's demonstrating bad faith
>>65322230Which China will bomb come wartime using domestic agents.
Mr Cohen fucked off?!?!?!? oh noesssz
>>65322233>>65322245I accept your concession.
>>65322254>Declares victory by paying me 300 billion izzatI ACCEPT YOUR CONCESSION, CUHAnyway let's get this back on track.>>65320033As thoroughly discussed in the thread, 5.56 has plenty of room to grow using higher pressure business.
>>65322121Whatever helps you sleep at night Ivan.
>>65322236I like the notion that American ammunition factories will get bombed but warehouses of ammunition will not.
>>65322264>insults Russian armor>gets called Ivanthe fuck
>>65322268What are they gonna do, bomb every unmarked warehouse in the country?Hell of a lot easier to just hit the source, not the stream.
>>65322270You're just a mental retard arguing about nothing and bullshit in tour own head.This started with the post that said>total war with china? Wouodnt even be able to make 6.8!Get real retard. Remove head from imagination land, get real.
>>65322284>bullshit in tour own head.saaaaaaar>Wouodnt even be able to make 6.8!SAAAAAAAAR.You're hammerfisting typos because you're pissed off. Dude, go outside.
>>653220747.62x51mm NATO provides closely comparable performance to M2 Ball but with a significantly shorter cartridge, which lets the casings, magazines, action, and receiver, all be a good bit shorter and lighter for the same ballistic handling and performance.This is not what .277 Furry offers, it offers a sketchy sidegrade to the existing 7.62mm NATO cartridge with dubious benefits, serious drawbacks, and at a high cost of implementation.
>>65321485I shot a deer there once, bad shot I know. I ran to it and slit it's throat and there was no blood already did. Some some research and it turns out that's a very deadly shot
>>65322400This.
>>65322150Yes, because it's actually going to be less than half that with even normal pressure ammo
>>65321934>it's called modern materials and rifling designs"If I pretend that a solution exists, maybe the problem won't be a problem."
>>65322148It really isn't any better practically, it still needs tungsten core to reliably penetrate plates, it still has high recoil, it still is heavy, it still can only reasonably loaded up to 20 rounds per mag, it's still asking a lot for the average infantryman to use it beyond 300m. It's basically a sidegrade, except with the added caveat of retardhigh pressures and a wonky manufacturing process.
>>65322424>imnb4 the LPVO with a auto-BDC is made out to be some revolutionary gadget that will magically make Joe Groundpounder into a sniper
>>65322434Even if that were the case, you could just...use the optic with 7.62 NATO and get the same result.
>>65322287You argue like and are as full of shit as a woman.Entirely unrespectable.
>>65322447Mr. Cohen converted to islam!?
>>65322454Intentional spelling errors are the only proof we currently have that something is not aj AI generated bot.I know I'm real. You don't even know what -is- real.>jew! Jeet!Fuck off cunt. Let's go back to the initial claim>in a complete all out total war USA wouldn't even be able to field 6.8 supplyComplete bullshit.
>>65322461Mr. Cohen is now schizo and converted to Islam?>in a complete all out total war USA wouldn't even be able to field 6.8 supplyPlease provide the number of 6.8mm rounds stockpiled versus combined ALL AVAILABLE 7.62x51mm and 5.56 because 6.8 is supposed to replace both.
>>65322467Your mom was so gay for cock she took miles of it just to give tye world the failed abortion that is you.
>>65322423Your willful ignorance is not our problem.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtjG8nr-zOM
>>6532242425 round mags, and you are desperately flinging shit at the wall hoping something sticks because you cannot name a single variable where 7.62x51 is superior to the new 6.8 round.
>>65322504Millions of rounds already in storage and circulation, existing manufacturing on a massive scale, way more guns for it, and larger core mass. You're ignoring posts because you're here in bad faith.
>>65322504>25 round mags,Wonder why these aren't standard.>because you cannot name a single variable where 7.62x51 is superior to the new 6.8 round.Did you not read my post? It doesn't matter if it's better, for all practical purposes it's basically the same and any advantages are wasted in the context of the M7 and its issuance as a standard infantry rifle.
>>65322514>Wonder why these aren't standard.For the Army? They are.
>>65322512You say I am the one arguing in bad faith as you pretend the Army replacing 7.62x51 with 6.8 means that all the existing stocks of 7.62x51 get thrown away.
>>65322504>25 round mags,nigga post your full-powered rifle rn because what kind of retard thinks 25rd 7.62 NATO mags are reasonably sized? those are a pain in the dick when prone, which is exactly why they aren't fucking issued.
thankfully this """"thread""" only has 100 posts remaining
>>65322504Wait hang on lemme keep going1. Larger mags already available2. Way more spare parts!3. Reloading supplies out the ass4. Greater projectile diameter and mass, so all things considered 7.62x51mm loads will have better terminal ballistics if design equal to 6.8 counterparts.5. WAY BETTER EXISTING AP LOADS. There's a lot more M993 and M1158 out there than XM1184, which is half the point of the NGSW in the first place!>>65322514Still way less ammo carried than 5.56.
>>65322522>replacing 7.62x51 with 6.8 means that all the existing stocks of 7.62x51 get thrown away.So is the 6.8 replacing 7.62 or not?>>65322525He's schizoI'm gonna send SIG a fucking invoice for wasting my time.
>>65322504noticing you didn't even really counter his post, you just kept on shrieking about how much better 6.8 is.
>>65322525NTA, I have 10 round turkshit shotgun mags that use the same pouches and they are fucking impossible to prone with. I feel your pain.
Every single time we have this thread some mindrotted SIGger comes out of the woodwork and screams things that make it clear he's never shot a 7.62 anything and is jizzing over paper stats like a gamer.
>>65322496Gonna email SIG a screengrab and demand maximum compensation for your unprofessional shilling.
>>65322525> what kind of retard thinks 25rd 7.62 NATO mags are reasonably sized?Someone who expects all your shooting to be done offhand and standing. This shit is just stupid, I'd honestly prefer the regularass 20rd because just looking at this from the standpoint of a guy who does rifle matches is making me wince.
>>65322553Jesus christ the bipod is gonna be the size of two Ron Jeremies.
>>65322553>make the already-too-short barrel shorter and throw in a 8" long mag toothe only way this program can get more retarded is if the suppressor goes out the window to save cost/weight and they actually go through with reverting to the training ammo like the rumor floating around was suggesting
>>65322556>the bipodThe fact the rifle isn't issued with one has been a source of hilarity for me for years, I guess they're just gonna let the 11Bs YOLO it when they use it at the DMR-distances they've built the weapon around.
>>65322566I can make it worse.They're gonna make it subsonic, to you know, save on hearing damage VA claims, and then ditch the suppressors. Oh, wait, and they'll force everyone to use a thermal with a proprietary battery instead of 18650s or CR123s then the company making the batteries is gonna go tits up because the CEO had 10TB of kiddie porn on a 30 year old computer and everyone is gonna have to use irons.Wait shit it doesn't have irons.
>>65322573No man they have to monopod it off the mag in full kit with their back bent upwards like goddamn Arma 3, which is the only place where this gun doesn't suck (it's in mods) and then the mag is going to overinsert and jam the gun the fuck up.
>>65322553This is the equivalent of some deskjocky learning that 40rd PMAGs exist and making them the default branchwide without understanding exactly why 30rd mags for intermediate cartridges has been the standard for a half century
nuSIG = gay slop
>>65322553>>65322594>pictures that make you physically feel having your rifle smack into a doorframe
Fifty years from now people are gonna find out SIG did some shady shit or something to get all these contracts and the people will be left holding the bag.150k PSI M4A8s ON MARS MOTHERFUCKERS
Anyone else find it hilarious Mr. Cohen fucked off the moment anon started bullshitting about sending SIG an invoice?
>>65320033>>653200375.56 FMJ out of a full size barrel penetrates steel better than 308 FMJ, 5.56 AP penetrates some level IVs, which are defined by their ability to stop 308 AP
>>65320958>>65320408Every five to ten years for the last forty years the military has announced some radical new change in rifle caliber that goes fucking nowhere because 5.56 hasn't ever actually been a problem once and all the logistics are in place for it.Retards fall for it every single time.
>>65322553>anons fall for a miss sized shooplook at the optic
>>65322691>level IVs, which are defined by their ability to stop 308 APYou know you could have checked Wikipedia before posting this. Level IV is a .30-06 M2AP steel core penetrator. If it were .308, it would be 7.62x51mm M61 AP, which is grossly inferior.>5.56 FMJ out of a full size barrel penetrates steel better than 308 FMJThis is correct because of steel being expressly vulnerable to velocity, but DOES NOT apply to other armor types. There are 2lb all-PE plates which will eat M193 all day but will lose like a bitch to 7.62x51mm M80 if not backed with IIIA (Gilliam GARMS RF1, for example, and various 7.62x39 MSC-rated PE plates).>5.56 AP penetrates some level IVsOnly those which are steel or certain types of boron carbide, and ONLY if the 5.56 APs are tungsten carbide cored. Yes, steel IVs exist but they're over 12lb and rarely seen outside of garage operations selling them at gunshows, like TAC, although AR500 and Pinnacle Armor had prototypes.Aluminum Oxide and Silicon Carbide-faced IVs of good quality will eat M995 and even better 5.56 APs like Nammo AP4 no problem. Even the Highcom 4SAS4, a total piece of shit which resulted in a big scandal in 2024, can handle AP4. Buffman once tested the Hesco 4400 to stop M995 at some ridiculous velocity like 3,800ft/s, and that's not a very good plate either.
>>65322696>the military has announced some radical new change in rifle caliberno it hasn't>that goes fucking nowhere6.8 is literally in service now
>>65322703Chief it's gonna be the same or similar length as a 25 round 7.62x51 mag.
>>65322535There is nothing to counter, the only meaningful thing he said was that we have stock of 7.62x51.
>>65322703anon, that's the proper length of a 25rd 7.62 mag...
>>65322715>he only meaningful thing he said was that we have stock of 7.62x51.that was literally never even said in the post you blithering, argument dodging idiot>>65322424
>>65322715Please counter >>65322537, >>65322527, >>65322525, >>65322512You're arguing against multiple anons in bad faith and this is actually starting to get sad. Like do you have stock in SIG or something?
>>65322691The Army isn't shooting lead core ammo.
I look at the guy running SIG and I get really fake fucking vibes from him
And Mr. Sigshit once again fucked off with no real arguments
>>65322720>12g shotgun mags>"reloading supplies" for the US Army>random whine about the size of 25 round mags as though that makes a difference when 7.62x51 and 6.8 use the same size mags>focuses on 10-15gr of core mass while ignoring bc (also lies about existing AP loads)no, these anons are grasping at straws
>>65322742I liked the anons whose 'arguments' were things that are identical for both 7.62x51 and 6.8 rifles.
>>653227531. The shotgun mags use the same pouches2. That's for civilian adoption since we're talking cartridge to cartridge>random whine about the size of 25 round mags as though that makes a difference when 7.62x51 and 6.8 use the same size magsAnd those long johns aren't issued for good reason.>focuses on 10-15gr of core mass Buddy the Hesco 4403 loses to M2AP 30ft/s over spec, 15gr can absolutely make or break a penetration against certified Level IV.>also lies about existing AP loads)Since you're accusing me of lying, tell me the amount of XM1184 in reserve versus M61, M993, and M1158 combined.>no, these anons are grasping at strawsActually refute the points you unemployed motherfucker.
>>65322759Because as said by others, 6.8 is a sketchy sidegrade from 7.62x51 rifles already in saaaaarvice.
>>65322759Yeah, because for all practice purposes, they are the same.
Alright so let's change topic to 6.8 armor pen. >>65322424>it still needs tungsten core to reliably penetrate platesXM1186 sidegrades M80A1 and will buy you RF2 defeat up close but is inferior to M2AP at NIJ spec.Realistically you have fifteen years before the Chinese have AlMgB14 and other ceramics in play which will enable no selling XM1184 at fair weight.
>>65322762>civilian useThis explains why several anons became so emotionally invested about the idea of 6.8 replacing 7.62x51, they are thinking about the investments they have made in their personal firearms rather than the US Army's position.
>>65322800Because they were comparing the cartridges apples to apples and on the merits.
>>65322759Is this an attempt at an own? Do you think the arguments being made in that realm are done with the belief that 7.62 NATO isn't impacted by the same negative aspects?
omfg the shill retard thinks all the 7.62x51 arguments are by people who think it's better and not using it as a snapshot of all the downsides of a full powered cartridge and why they still apply to .277
>>65322772>for all practice purposes they are the same>this is why 25 round mags are bad for 6.8 but not for 7.62x51Anon I...
>>65322816Yeah I'm noticing he's ignoring 5.56 completelyDefinitely a corpo motherfucker
>>65322818oh wow you are actually retarded
WTF is even going on in this thread? Are SIG shills here?
>>65322810>they were comparing the cartridges apples to applesIn applications that have no relevance to the US Army, like availability of reloading supplies.
>>65322824it looks like it
>>65322818>this is why 25 round mags are bad for 6.8 but not for 7.62x51Where the actual fuck are you seeing this being argued? Is English your first language? The 25 round 7.62x51 mags are being used to show how impractical they are and by extension the 6.8 ones will be.
>>65322707>literally
>>65322787>XM1186 sidegrades M80A1 and will buy you RF2 defeat up close but is inferior to M2AP at NIJ spec.SIG's steel hydracore projectiles are going to cause a lot of blasted asses.
>>65321667>>65322400>>65321667>>65322400>>65322767>>65322787>sidegrade>sidegrade>sidegrade>sidegrade>sidegradeYou are profoundly stupid and your (lack of) vocabulary demostrates it. The word "sidegrade" might be the zoomie gaymer equivalent of SJWs saying "problematic". A meaningless sentence decorator that they think is some profound zinger.
>>65322820>argument is about replacing 7.62x51 with 6.8>"WHY IS HE IGNORING 5.56!!!
>>65322857>SJWit's time for bed, unc.
>>65322857Remember anon, a flatter trajectory and better velocity retention is a sidegrade.
>>65322828So you concede 6.8 is an inferior civilian caliber? >>65322852Tungsten. Steel is in the rear.
>>65322904>So you concede 6.8 is an inferior civilian caliber? If you are already invested in 7.62x51 as several anons appear to be it is indeed a hard argument to make to switch to 6.8, but the context here was the US military.
>>65322904>Tungsten. Steel is in the rear.Where did you hear that it was a mix? That would make machining the tungsten easier though if it is just the blunt forward projectile.
>level4+ plates stop .50cal BMG>5.56 is too weakSOCOM is requesting the HICAR because 5.56mm at facemelt pressure is what they want.
>>65322857I sidegraded your mom right in the bussy.
>>65320130>>65320100>kevlar badWhich is why everyone in Ukraine is wearing Kevlar soft armor over their dick, kidneys and sides. Actual practical reasons to wear the neck and deltoid protectors because shrapnel is a constant and real threat.
>>65322928>level4+ plates stop .50cal BMGNo they don't.
>>65322874>it's a liiiittle bit better, therefore it's worth spending trillions on replacing all our shit which already does the same thing>>65322928>level4+ plates stop .50cal BMGDo you mean some sort of hypothetical Lvl.40 plates?
>>65322947Colossus Heavy stops .50 BMG AP at muzzle. Some well-built conventional Level IV plates will stop .50 BMG Ball at a standoff.
>>65322984>Colossus Heavy stops .50 BMG AP at muzzleNo it doesn't.
>>65322991Here you go bro, even BFD was no big deal> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwl8nZl9gjQThere are other videos on it, too. It won't stop Raufoss, but comes pretty close.
>>65322998>2500 ft/s>should be 2900 ft/s with that projectileBuffman usually does a better job than this.
>>65322998>9lbs>for just the front plate aloneOne can only wonder how much they cost, also.
>>65322918Because it's a dual core design, lead free, and the combination was mentioned in the patent.>>65322914There is no argument, lol.>>65322998Yeah it stops .50 BMG M2AP with 40mm BFD, which is a pass under NIJ requirements. Granted, out of a Barrett and not an M2HB. Also it's 9.25lb and 1.488" thick.EDUN on Taobao sells an 8.8lb / 1.44" thick plate good for 1x 12.07x108mm B-32 API at 50 meters standoff, but that's an inferior round. You CAN actually buy it unlike the Colossus Heavy for $1,020 a pair. I'd use it as a "threat level unknown" plate for emergencies because of the strike face thickness.
>>65323007It won't do 2,900ft/s, which is implied. Buff is told what to shoot in advance. He pretends he doesn't but he does. >>65323012The regular Colossus is $1,280/pair, since this is mostly beefed up strike face and they use cheap PE, I'd reckon $1,700/pair.
>>65323012Average steel plate weight with "build up coating"
>>65323025I love how 60 year old elmers will tell you they can ruck with 18lb a pair steel plates and then add sides like no big deal.Homes you're running over twenty pounds of shit that loses to M855A1.
>>653230242900 fps isn't really going to happen out of that rifle anyway. 2600 fps is nominal. There's also the demolition ranch video, but I think they used a similar rifle.
>>65323028Loses to M193 or the other Elmer's .270 Winchester, kekkek
If those plates reliably stop fiddy AP at close range, then it seems to me that developing infantry rifles GPMGs for any further armor penetration is pretty much a lost race.
>>65322998>>65323012>>9lbs>>for just the front plate alone>TFW I have 8lbs plates that are only level IV
>>65323029Yeah that's more M2 velocity. The plate is single strike so if you're getting engaged by an M2 it's tough fucking shit anyways.I would like to know why Adept hasn't commercially released that plate. They could use their new Ivoryguard trauma foam to get that 40mm BFD down some.Remember, it's not just BFD depth, but also velocity of the deformation and width. VPAM is a better standard than NIJ for all of those, but there's no way Adept is doing a 3-shot PM-13 plate for less than maybe 10.6lb.
>>65323033>>65323028Those Colossus plates could be defeated by .270 or M855A1? It doesn't seem likely to me.Not that wearing one of those makes it an appealing proposition to get shot at by either, there's lots else of your body it doesn't cover.
>>65323036Aluminum Oxide and fiberglass needs to be retired as a layup. The Colossus Heavy is...Silicon Carbide doped with Titanium Diboride adhered to an Ultra-High-Molecular-Weight-Polyethylene backer.
>>65323043Nah I mean steel plates are killed by M193, .270 Win, .22-250, and the list goes on. Almost every AP and every mainstream hunting round.
>>65323043No, we're joking about 9lb steel plates. M193 at 3,250 will fuck them up except for the newer harder steels and the steel-titanium alloy plates like AR500's really overpriced A4 which still loses to M855A1.>>65323035They are over 9lb dude. Upcoming GEN-IV XSAPI is 5.5lb standalone and that's still considered heavyweight emergency armor by US military standards.
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>>65323060Can we get a jannie to delete 100 sig shill posts? Now it's comfy /bag/posting.
>>65323057Yes, but if you can make a 9lbs plate which stops .50BMG AP from a Barrett at close range, then you could most probably make a much lighter plate which no-sells whatever NGSW shenanigans one could come up with.
>>65323057Supersoldier breeding and chemical enhancement program when?Just imagine 300-pound monsters who can run all day, wearing .50 BMG AP resistant armor suits. If the future needs infantry, it needs those guys.
>>65323067Certainly. Take the Colossus and beef the strike face up until it's 7.7lb, same weight as a Hesco 4403.You now have a $1,500-$1.6k a pair plate that is too heavy for mainline infantry use but is acceptable for emergencies and counter-sniper.>>65323070Legalize PEDs.
>>65322800Replacing .308 with .277 is actually a good idea. You get a better round in every metric including being more compact. Much like how 30-06 to .308 was a direct upgrade.My annoyance with the M7 NGSW program is the lack of GPMG/SAW. The M7 is a BAR, which was a suoerweapon for WW1, excellent for WW2, and still relevant in Korea. The BAR is why the M1 Garand turned into the M14. The NGSW is accurately compared to the M14. Adequate in all aspects, but an obsolete battle rifle and not an assault rifle.The sad part is the .277 GPMG of a rechambered or scaled M240 is literally the easiest thing you could do.
Sig
>>65323035ESAPI/XSAPI stop everything.Also I don't know why this is even unheard of when there's youtubers who shoot Barret .50cal against temu plates.
>>65323082I would much rather just try to jack up the pressures on 5.56mm and 7.62mm, after inventing some magical Super Stellite.
>>65323092>jack up those pressuresHICAR. Already happening.
.264 IWS LICC all the things
>>65323017>and the combination was mentioned in the patentCan you link the patent, the only one I can find is the one for their EPR.
>>65322691At what a whole ten yards of distance and 3500fps handloads?
>>65323060Threads don't just disappear when they hit the bump limit.
>>65323103Should be one of these. On further review it might be steel up front, tungsten core rear. There's some reading between the lines too. They don't say tungsten outright but that's the only way the projectile works lengthwise.>https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240102779A1>https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2025165349A1/en>https://patents.justia.com/patent/20260133018
>>65323110>derpObviously,DUMBFUCK.but they no longer get put up to the top of the Catalog and *at limit* are slowly sliding off of the Catalog to their permanent Death.
>>65322857Anon got sidegraded.
>>65323116deadass fr
>>653230891. ESAPI right now is 3x M2AP up to 2,880ft/s or 3x 5.56 M995 up to 3,400.2. XSAPI is 3x M993 up to 3,100 or 3x 5.56 M995 up to 3,400.Both have a minimum first shot M2AP v50 of 3,150ft/s.>Also I don't know why this is even unheard of when there's youtubers who shoot Barret .50cal against temu plates.We're talking legit AP here, not ball.
>>65323115Mr. Cohen is such a jackfuck he'll probably ghostpost on desuarchive for the next three years.
>>65323116>>65323119cuh got sidegraded
>>65323082>My annoyance with the M7 NGSW program is the lack of GPMG/SAW. You mean the M250.
>>65322874A somewhat better trajectory and velocity compared to 7.62 Nato is why we're supposed to be going back to battle rifles? Am I supposed to be impressed by this?
>>65323166>pic of hammered dogshitchecked
>>65323168He will continue to avoid this because he knows 6.8 SIDEGRADES 5.56 and is a DOWNGRADE for infantry purposes.
Listen up people. China has a lot more tungsten than the US does and can PENETRATE US.
>>65323168>slightlyIt is why the US military should replace its 7.62x51 rifles and MG with 6.8 ones, sidegrade anon couldn't make a counter argument more substantive than institutional inertia and so has tried to shift the discussion.
>>65323168read through the thread, anon has been nothing but obsessed about proving that 6.8 is better than 7.62 even though no one is arguing otherwise and aren't praising 7.62 as if it should be thec standard issue round. dude's brain is fried and he's completely missed the point; switching to a full powered round is retarded but if you have to do that and there's already a perfectly suitable one available...but you shouldn't do that because that's retarded too.
>>65323187>It is why the US military should replace its 7.62x51 rifles and MG with 6.8 onesDamn son, that sure would be nice if that was all they were doing but they aren't sooooo what are you even arguing? We're making a slightly less dumbfuck decision to adopt battle rifles over assault rifles because 6.8 bests 7.62? Cool, I feel so much better now.
>>65323194So you don't actually disagree but the 5.56 issue means you have to object to 6.8 then?
>>65323190>even though no one is arguing otherwiseGaslight time already sidegrade anon?
>>65323200What the fuck? I don't give a shit about 7.62 v 6.8, neither should be the round for the standard issue infantry rifle. Yes I object to 6.8 in that context, I thought I made that perfectly clear.
>>65323204you have been arguing in bad faith throughout this thread and clearly don't do any real shooting, certainly not with bigboi bullets. go away now.
>>65323187There is something so fucking depressing about someone simping for a bullet this hard and knowing he'll never even shoot it
Avengers and white boys are on us this morning.
>>65323230Whoever complains about armor autism in /gq/ after this has no idea.
>>65323206All I have been arguing is how the US military should replace its 7.62x51 firearms with 6.8 firearms, you are emotionally invested in 7.62x51 but can't argue in its favor so you resorted to attacking me instead.
>>65320033have you ever been shot in the plates?of course not.
>>65323395>waaagh they're attacking me!!!!!>this anon earlier today:>>65322496
>>65323395Please counter the posts in >>65322720.You have failed to do so.
This thread unironically ruined the NGSW's reputation. This was the best Mr. Cohen's shills could do?Like I said that fucker looks fake as hell. Unironically wouldn't be surprised if he was a martian sent to fuck us over
>>65323417>counter these things which have nothing to do with replacing 7,62x51 firearms with 6.8 firearmsalso see >>65322753
>>65323510All dodges. Pathetic.>>65323230He certainly didn't dispute the claim he was an unemployed motherfucker.We collectively need to start billing for our time honestly and start sending SIG invoices for wasting it. Then take them to collections. Then our homeless SIG shill may actually be able to hold a 6.8 bullet.
>>65320932I when that started. In '97 we never shot at anything but paper targets. We did stab rubber dummies with bayonets though, and learned how to cave in someone's face with our boot heels.
