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/gq/ Infographic Emporium:
https://imgur.com/a/gq-infographic-emporium-1-00-1lZ5xw6
Legacy Infographic Reserve: https://imgur.com/a/k-infographic-reserve-AIKzwWF

>Last time on /gq/, Adept Armor unveiled a titanium helmet. Everybody beat up a SIG shill in another thread. Gilliam put the 0425 RF3 on sale for under $250/set, and the 0101.07 standard is finally LIVE!

>QUICK ARMOR GUIDE 2.171
CODE: * = active NIJ-cert, ^ = NEEDS SOFT ARMOR, DND = do not drop, ** = military.
>Special Rifle Threat (M855A1, no M80 <44mm BFD):
Budget: Hesco L211
Mid-Range: Hesco M210
High-End: Hesco U210 / U211, LSAPI**, or Tencate CR-6450SA.
>CONUS Minimum (M80, M855, M193):
Budget: Hesco 3611C, SAPI**^, or Gilliam 6001
Mid-Range: Hesco 3612* or 3810*
High-End: Hesco 3811* or 3811LV^DND
Elite: Used Cercom CER-EMH**^
>CONUS Medium (M80 + M855A1 or BZ API):
Budget: Protech 2120-5
Mid-Range: Hesco 3411* or LTC 19513
High-End: LTC 28780**
Elite: VelSys PBZSA**DND or Hesco SC3812 or Protech DT306C-HW
Elite-Plus: Used Ceradyne MH3 CQB**^DND (10x M995)
>CONUS Optimal (M855A1 + M80A1):
Budget: Highcom 3S9 (SAPI-cut)
Mid-Range: Used LTC 28550** / 28590** or Highcom 3S9M* (SAPI-cut!)
High-End: Used LTC 28595**
Elite: Used LTC 28570** or VelSys TSA**
Elite-Plus: Tyr XHA4/S6/T(DND) or GEN 6 LTC TSA**
>Level IV / CONUS High (.30-06 M2AP):
/pfg/: Used Protech 2014G (last ditch option)
Budget: Gilliam 1023, Protech 2014MC, or Hesco 4403* (bare minimum)
Mid-Range: Hesco 4601* or ESAPI**^ (REV. G-J)
High-End: Hesco 4800(DND), 4800LV^DND, or Protech 9812-R1(DND)
Elite: Tencate CXP-800 SA or Ceradyne SOF ESAPI MK.II**^DND or Adept Emperor
Elite-Plus: Ceradyne SAEC**DND(??)
>Level IV+ / CONUS Extreme (Various)
Budget: Protech 2230 (M2AP at +600ft/s) or Gilliam 8002 (.300 Winmag Swiss P AP)
Mid-Range: Adept Colossus (7.62x51 Swiss P AP) or REV. C XSAPI**^ (M993)
High-End: Rev. D XSAPI**^ (M993+)
Elite: ECSAPI** (M993)
Elite-Plus: Ceradyne 96034** (7.62x51 Swiss P)

>>65325248
Opinions on the Gilliam GARMS 3 ICW plate?

>>65325313
Basically a sidegrade from the new RMA 1165. Not an awesome option.
Both have no drop protection, the GARMS 3 is 6lb for an honest 10x12 SAPI, which is an interesting size since 10x12 is normally a shooters.
The RMA 1165 G2 is much lighter at 5.3lb, but the 10x12 is closer to 9x11 and has bottom corners cut out.
Thickness is similar, but the GARMS 3 is ICW IIIA and the RMA is standalone.

Unless you really like a thinner plate, just roll the 1635 - which is the standalone drop-capable GARMS 3.

>>65325275
>5.56 is outclassed
by itself?

1/10 bait. I do not understand the Sigster AP obsession. Situation is catch-22. Either armor doesn't matter or opfor isn't using it, or they're just going to whip out plates in five years that'll no sell any tungsten chicanery the current 6.8 cartridge can deal.

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> 5.56 is outclassed
This is a retarded take anyway.
The most popular plates in the US are shit-tier steel planks that lose to M193 from a long enough barrel, and always get slotted by M855A1.
The second most popular plates are fiberglass-alumina shitboxes that will fail against real 5.56mm AP, maybe Sig's new fancy 5.56mm AP round. Against that threat even the ESAPI is questionable.
So 5.56mm ain't done, niggers. It obviously won't penetrate an XSAPI-or-better type of plate, but those are rare anyway. XSAPIs are supposedly stockpiled, but are probably literally moldy and moth-eaten at this point.

>>65325435
>The most popular plates in the US are shit-tier steel planks that lose to M193 from a long enough barrel, and always get slotted by M855A1.
This is true. If you want to stop M855A1 with steel, you need a 750BHN brittle as hell plate and some standoff, or you need to jack it up to a Level IV steel plate that weighs 14lb coated.
The majority of steel plates are like the AR500 Heritage and get trashed by M193 above 2,800.
>The second most popular plates are fiberglass-alumina shitboxes that will fail against real 5.56mm AP
Even a cherry-picked 4SAS4 can handle Nammo AP4, but a double tap to the same area will go through.
>Against that threat even the ESAPI is questionable.
ESAPI's max required M995 spec is 3,400ft/s and the new SIG 97gr AP everyone has been arguing about has sectional density surpassing even M993. Serious business.
>It obviously won't penetrate an XSAPI-or-better type of plate
Liberty Ammo had a 110gr tungsten carbide 5.56 AP around 2008 which might be able to deal if boosted up to HICAR spec. No idea what happened to that.
>XSAPIs are supposedly stockpiled, but are probably literally moldy and moth-eaten at this point.
Old news, the GEN-IV XSAPIs are being evaluated as we speak, final quantity still being determined. The specs are excellent.
3x M993 up to 3100ft/s with about 4" spacing, first 1.25" from edge IIRC, max BFD 62mm ish, 5.5lb size medium. Standalone.

>>65325435
>moldy ass esapis
It's cringe that they don't just sell ESAPIs via the CMP and just let them rot.

>>65323101
> How would you turn them around?
It's super super simple.
Their lineup is retarded and fucking sucks. Even the names of their products are impossible to follow. First, I'd shitcan everything. I'd put all of those 20-year-old products in the grave they deserve.
Then I'd release ONE GOOD, SOLID PLATE in all of the SAPI sizes from XS to XL, and have it certified. That good plate would have to be a UHMWPE-alumina middle-of-the-road RF3 option that retails at $300-400. Discount heavily for police departments to fully capture the .07 LEO market. The marketing should be "it's light enough, tough enough, the sizing is right, the price is right, you'd have to be a faggot, a weakling, or a special snowflake to want anything else."
I'd set 100 plates aside for everybody to test. I'd send them to every youtuber, random redditoid faggots, run a few giveaways, and so on.
Then I'd shitcan Rachel, Yushi, and every other retarded dealer, who have caused a lot of trouble.
Then, because I'm running a public company, I develop a new armored drone and try to drum up some $$$ on the market.
The big risk is that China floods the market with very cheap plates that perform super well, so I'd have to hire DC lobbyists to fight against Chinese armor imports and Chinese products on the NIJ list.
Heh, you asked. They should take my 200IQ advice unironically, though. It would 10x their penny stock value!

>>65325464
>Old news, the GEN-IV XSAPIs are being evaluated as we speak, final quantity still being determined. The specs are excellent.
They've literally failed every prior evaluation going back 10 years, so I won't hold my breath, lol

>>65325486
Those were the GEN-IIIs from LTC and a Ceradyne-Integris teamup. The GEN-IV ESAPI is pure Ceradyne and successfully did the GEN-III ESAPI but standalone at same weight thing, so it seems like Integris was jamming things up.
>>65325482
Gilliam 1635 in final stages of NIJ cert for $300 a PAIR says hello.

Daily reminder that UHMWPE improvements over the past ten years have resulted in YUGE weight savings.
The Velsys PBZSA and Hesco 4800 are also 11 years old.

>>65325240
Do any of you guys have the plate carrier infograph?

>>65325536
It's in the emporium. Old one is in the reserve. See >>65325248

>>65325539
Oh duh. thank you

>>65325555
>CHECK EM
Checked and no problem. I'll try and bust out the UARM infographic tonight because they have some interesting options, although the PE plates are of mixed reputation and their shipping times are a little... long... but that kinda has to do with the war going on over there so I'll give them a pass on that one.

Still faster than opticsplanet or apex.

>>65325509
How would YOU turn them around?

>>65325561
>UARM
D-tier at best. Home of the 7N6 "rated" plate that fails to 7N6, lmao

AWS inc is having a sling sale.

>>65325561
very cool

>>65325568
7N6M =/= 7N6. Hate to pull the RMA ESRT excuse with BZ API from Bulgaria or Romania or wherever =/= their BZ API, but there is an actual major distinction between the two. 7N6M has a harder core and will fuck up a PE plate.
>>65325565
Embrace the Chinese white meat PE and outperform Hesco in all brackets on either performance, weight, or price while getting everything certified. Beat Gilliam on volume.

>>65325593
> 7N6M =/= 7N6.
We don't know if it was 7N6M or not, though. All we know is that the 7N6-rated plate failed to something called 7N6. UARM are shady as fuck in general, desu.
> outperform Hesco in all brackets on either performance, weight, or price while getting everything certified. Beat Gilliam on volume.
Poor take.
Gilliam is completely irrelevant outside a small handful of autists and eBay buyers.
Chasing 100 different models is retarded when the domestic police market doesn't need more than two: A good RF3, and MAYBE a good RF2, that's it. Just perfect them and make them in all sizes and flood the zone.
> Embrace the Chinese white meat PE
lmao I'm sure their stockholders and government contacts would just love that. And don't forget that they have to disclose it as they're a publicly-traded company.

>>65325509
Speaking of publicly traded companies, Ceradyne was bought by Avon and body armor operations were formally closed down. They mentioned this in their 2023 annual report:
> https://www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReportArchive/a/LSE_AVON_2023.pdf
> "At 30 September 2023 Armour operations have fully closed. Armour has therefore been classified as a discontinued operation, including restatement of prior period comparatives."
Their 2024 and 2025 reports don't say a damn thing about the ESAPI or XSAPI programs. Like, not a word.
They sold their armor plate assets to Coorstek, but not the Ceradyne name:
> https://www.avon-technologiesplc.com/media/news/sale-of-armor-assets/
So I think you've got bad info from somewhere, or Avon are hiding info from their investors. If that's the case, you've gotta wonder why.

>>65325616
>We don't know if it was 7N6M or not, though.
That's the issue with Russian and ex-combloc ammo in general. There's always an "M" modernized version. I'll dock UARM for not incorporating enough safety margin but stopping steel core with white meat PE ain't happening at a reasonable weight / thickness.
Use ceramic if you don't know what opfor is rolling. Plenty of other companies' PE plates will shit out versus 7N6M.
>UARM are shady as fuck in general, desu
Eh, somewhere between Militech and JWD.
>Gilliam is completely irrelevant outside a small handful of autists and eBay buyers.
Wait until the 1635 is certified. There's less than forty distinct models even on the 0101.07 CPL. The 1635 is VERY attractive if certified.
>A good RF3, and MAYBE a good RF2, that's it. Just perfect them and make them in all sizes and flood the zone.
Good thing that's what Gilliam is doing! Why do you think they're getting rid of all the old models?
>lmao I'm sure their stockholders and government contacts would just love that.
They aren't competitive for fed contracts versus Hesco, Tencate, and LTC. Show me their 4800 competitor or a plate that holds a candle to the PBZSA or LSAPI.
Also the stockholders would love that. Maybe would get the stock up by 0.05 dollars.
>And don't forget that they have to disclose it as they're a publicly-traded company.
Meh?

The Chinese will mulch domestic companies in the budget bracket if the CPL permits overseas chinese offices for FITs.

>>65325631
> That's the issue with Russian and ex-combloc ammo in general. There's always an "M" modernized version.
But we don't know if it was penetrated by the M or the regular version! It looks like just a shit tier plate with a botched "rating"
> Eh, somewhere between Militech and JWD.
lmao. I'd take JWD over UARM any fucking day. Actually, I'd probably take JWD even if it cost twice as much. Impossible to trust UARM. F-Tier.
> Wait until the 1635 is certified. There's less than forty distinct models even on the 0101.07 CPL. The 1635 is VERY attractive if certified.
Sure, but it would be easy for Highcom to beat them with 99% of buyers because they can claim Made in the USA with US materials. Gilliam plates are basically Chinese.
> They aren't competitive for fed contracts versus Hesco, Tencate, and LTC. Show me their 4800 competitor or a plate that holds a candle to the PBZSA or LSAPI.
That's why they need to compete on their strengths. Make a SOLID middle-tier NIJ .07 RF3 model, in all sizes, without Chink involvement. That's what most police departments are looking for, anyway.

>>65325629
See this thread, specifically post >>65019920
https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/65005166/#65019920
>So I think you've got bad info from somewhere, or Avon are hiding info from their investors. If that's the case, you've gotta wonder why
I don't think we're supposed to know GEN-IV plates are a thing, kinda like the situation with GEN-5B and up SOCOM plates.

>>65325649
>But we don't know if it was penetrated by the M or the regular version! It looks like just a shit tier plate with a botched "rating
It lost, so it was probably 7N6M.
>lmao. I'd take JWD over UARM any fucking day. Actually, I'd probably take JWD even if it cost twice as much. Impossible to trust UARM
Homes JWD has cheat rings like RMA and their III+ plates with full coverage are nearly 6lb and don't stop M855A1.
>they can claim Made in the USA with US materials.
Do you see this helping Hesco any with the 4403? Oh it lost to M2AP at 30ft/s over spec because it uses a shitty fiberglass backer! It's made in USA though, please ignore the 1lb lighter Chinese plate that beats its ass!
>That's why they need to compete on their strengths. Make a SOLID middle-tier NIJ .07 RF3 model, in all sizes, without Chink involvement. That's what most police departments are looking for, anyway.
If the Gilliam 1635 gets certified then cops can buy that shit for under $140 a set using NIJ BVP grants.

>>65325650
So it's bad info. Avon made ESAPI plates and worked on the XSAPI program until 2023, then they folded that entire business division following XSAPI failures.
> https://www.avon-technologiesplc.com/media/jrpc1jpc/pdf.pdf
> "Armour revenue increased to $14.6 million (HY22: $2.5 million), leaving us on track to have fulfilled all obligations by the end of the financial year. Armour closing order book of $16.0 million (HY22: $24.4 million) comprises $8.0 million of DLA ESAPI and $8.0 million of flat armour."
> "Revenue during the first half was below our expectations, but a better second half is supported by the strong order book, the steps we have already taken to strengthen the factories focused on shipping the first lots of NG IHPS helmet to the U.S. DOD and the discontinuation of our armour business."
It's over.

>>65325655
> It lost, so it was probably 7N6M.
lol, lmao even. Maybe it lost because the plate just sucks?
> Homes JWD has cheat rings like RMA and their III+ plates with full coverage are nearly 6lb and don't stop M855A1.
I'd still take JWD and size up, lol. UARM are just F-tier, like bury the plates in the backyard out of shame tier.

>>65325275
>offers crit without solutiin
You realize this undermines any credibility you didn't have to begin with?

>>65325655
>NIJ BVP grants.
How do I, as a CONCERNED citizen (and a shell company letterhead) rcv these grants?

>>65325673
You need to be a cop

>>65325677
I am a citizen cop. I have a letterhead of me.

>>65325698
I will be a self proclaimed CONSTABLE. Constable Anon.

>>65325659
You're still referencing GEN-III stuff. GEN-IV is feb 2025 onward. Apparently Avon changed their mind.
An armor business can be two boomers in a garage, it ain't over man. Buy the strike faces from CoorsTek. Dyneema or Honeywell Spectra backers. Outsource pressing and final assembly to some dudes in Ohio. Boom there you go.
Armor really isn't that complicated. It only gets complicated if you use exotic materials or doped / novel ceramics.
>>65325666
>Maybe it lost because the plate just sucks?
It was shot by a round outta spec. Are we going to give the Hesco 3810 shit because it loses to M855A1?
In Puccia and Ukraine, comrade is expected to know difference between 7N6 / 7N6M, 7N10 / 7N10M, 7N24 / 7N24M, and B-32 / B-32M like capitalist know M855 from M855A1.
I will however dock UARM for not telling people the 7N6 / 7N6M issue.
>I'd still take JWD and size up, lol.
Michelin man coming in hot, kek. Gonna be like the Indian kshaaatriyas rolling huge DRDO full torso plates when they barely wear a SAPI M.
>>65325668
It's the SIG shill from the other thread. Apparently it's 6.8 or bust with that guy.
>>65325673
You need to be a police department with LETTERHEAD.

>>65325715
> You're still referencing GEN-III stuff. GEN-IV is feb 2025 onward. Apparently Avon changed their mind.
Yeah except it's in none of their filings from 2023 on, including where it would HAVE to be -- in financial projections and on the balance sheet.
So either they're illegally hiding something, or somebody made a typo/mistake and spread bad info.
> It was shot by a round outta spec.
You don't KNOW that. You're guessing, and your guess is as good as mine. My guess is that the plate just fucking sucks, because UARM seems roughly as shady as RMA.
> Michelin man coming in hot, kek. Gonna be like the Indian kshaaatriyas rolling huge DRDO full torso plates when they barely wear a SAPI M.
Hell yeah bro

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>>65325356
Mostly looking for decent ICW options on a budget, running an old USMC gen II PC with soft armor inserts. Don't need standalone protection, not that it would hurt to have but would like to save some weight and thickness

>>65325724
>So either they're illegally hiding something
Uh something something national security and it's the body armor industry so shady shit happens all the time
I don't see the issue, legal stuff aside. I guarantee you that if you dig their 2009-2012 reports up, you will not find a peep of the 96034, ECSAPI, SAEC, or 2572575.
>You don't KNOW that.
Well, actually, I do, because their website specifies as follows.
>5.45×39 MSC 7N6 (AK-74)
7N6M has a HARDENED steel penetrator, so they did specify basic 7N6 on further review.
>My guess is that the plate just fucking sucks
Well it does need a trauma pad to get below 44mm, so I'll consneed that.

>>65325737
Do you want M2AP protection in particular or are you really looking for M855A1 + M80 or something else along those lines?

>>65325750
M855A1/M80A1 multihit protection at minimum if possible. I have a line on some ~$400 ESAPIs on tacswap, but the sellers won't get back to me

>>65325748
Here you go, bro. XSAPI filing in 2011. There are lots of them, before and after. "Not a peep" since they closed the business in 2023, though.
> https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/18937/000114036112008891/form10-k.htm
As for UARM, the penetrations were marked 7N6. Not 7N6M. So your objection is circular and doesn't address the possibility that the plate just failed because it sucks and UARM are shit-tier.

>>65325369
.280 british beat 5.56 at it's own game a decade prior.
sig is shit btw it's just incredibly easy to make a cartridge better than 7.62 and 5.56

>>65325777
Checked. .280 British is based, too.

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>>65325767
>As for UARM, the penetrations were marked 7N6. Not 7N6M
Then it's possible tester didn't know the distinction? We don't know if Buffman shot the Adept Colossus with 7N37 or 7N37M and he probably doesn't either. 7N37M isn't even marked differently than 7N37, you have to go off the date.
The plate is also 3lb for SAPI M or so. That's a fair weight for a Level III PE plate. How do you propose MSC 7N6 defeated it?
>"Not a peep" since they closed the business in 2023, though.
So per pic rel did they just leave the US military hanging on some helmets? What was linked in that desuarchive thread is very explicit ESAPI GEN-IV is an Avon Protection plate.
It is possible the plate was actually developed in 2023 and didn't get an NSN assigned until 2025 for bureaucratic bullshit reasons, but the report discussing ESAPI GEN-IV / XSAPI GEN-IV is from March 2026.
https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2025/Other/2025Annual-Report.pdf
>So your objection is circular and doesn't address the possibility that the plate just failed because it sucks and UARM are shit-tier.
Name the defeat mechanism. It's probable they tested it against a very shitty version of 7N6 because the Russians can't into consistency for shit, and it faced off against REAL 7N6, which has a MILD STEEL CORE and defeated it like how Point Blank has PE plates that lose to 7.62x39 MSC!
I know I'm being tricky, but the whole thing is circular and revolves around the fact you do not run basic ass PE plates if steel cores of any stripe are involved. I'm not giving UARM a huge knock for that, because that's fundamental plate selection. You. Do. Not. Use. PE. If. You. Don't. Know. The. OPFOR. Ammo!
Can you show similar failures for their ceramic-faced options?
>>65325777
Alright that's better but frankly you're gonna have to sell .280 British or something else (your choice) against HICARized 5.56.

>>65325843
>So per pic rel did they just leave the US military hanging on some helmets?
They still make helmets, in fact they're focused on helmets. They have the NG-IHPS contract. They got rid of the body armor business.
Here is their 2025 report:
> https://www.avon-technologiesplc.com/media/clan3iw4/2025-annual-report.pdf
> "Our ambition is to become the leading head protection systems provider by 2030."
"Ceradyne" is just a name for a company that makes helmets now. They body armor plate business, which they called the "armour business", is finished. This is also in the 2025 report:
> "Cash flows from discontinued operations relate to final working capital receipts and payments for the Armour business, which closed in FY23."

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>>65325766
The perfect plate would be the LTC 28570 but that's both standalone and way, way outta budget since second hand rate is $2.5k/set.
In that case the GARM 3 is solid.

Pic rel is the test report for the GARM 3 versus the RMA 1165. Note that the RMA 1165 is SAPI M and comes in at 6.3lb, note also the GARM 3 is backed by IIIA soft so really it's gonna be about 7lb. Solid BFD though.

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>>65325862
Well... on further review, I see that VTP ESAPI is now assigned to LTC and Integris per pic rel. It takes a big autist to admit when he's wrong, well played.

>IT'S OVER FOR CERADYNE PLATES.
>DAMN IT.
>FUCK.
>SHIT.
>IT'S OVER.
>NO MORE DREAMS
>ONLY LTC CREDENTIAL-BLOCKED BORING BULLSHIT.

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>tfw Ceradyne had a 5.7lb standalone XSAPI in 2011 that was only 0.2lb heavier than future GEN-IV XSAPI and stopped 3x M993 with sub-44mm BFD...
>and now Ceradyne is dead
I am now UNEQUALLY demoralized.

>>65325715
>police department with LETTERHEAD
I can make that.

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>>65325888
Here are your officers, commissioner.

>>65325882
Avon are terrible, they shut it down for no good reason. Jeet-tier management.

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>>65325868
Also I'm samefagging here, but quick note on the GARMS test report, the shot of M80 after the M2AP was marked "PP" and not "SIP" (stopped in plate), so I'm interpreting that as it perforated the plate enough to get caught by the soft armor but not enough to actually pierce the soft armor layers and be marked SIV - stop in vest.
So it's imperative the plate is run with good IIIA, it is not ICW for just BFD reasons. Also that means the multi-hit is a little "eh" but it's a budget IV and IVs are by definition only required to be single strike.
>>65325766
So on second thought, if you can actually get some ESAPIs that aren't roached and are preferably REV. G or later, go with those.
At the end of the day the GARMS 3 is Alumina-PE and Alumina is strictly budget ceramic. ESAPIs are boron carbide or SiC-B4C hybrid.
Alternatively buy the GARMS 3s and then wait for a really good pair of ESAPIs at your leisure.

>>65325899
Same thing 3M did I suppose, just let it rot.
DEPRESSING.
I'm curious if maybe they all went to work at BAE or something, you almost never hear about their plates since they're credential-blocked to hell but they absorbed Cercom back in the mid-00s and their shit was almost comparable to Ceradyne's.
Must not have been competitive for GEN-IV contracts, however.

>>65325891
I don't think you know who you are dealing with. I am The BEEKEEPER. I protect the hive.

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>>65325912
Ah you must be the cameraman in the Bee movie. Watch out cuh, KEN has a .300 Weatherby reloaded with PISSING HOT M2AP reloads! He's got that shot moving at 3,550ft/s!
You will need a Protech 2230 for that shit!
>>65325901
Also ANOTHER side note, Gilliam has it noted that they removed the soft armor and then shot the plate standalone with a single hit of M80, in which case "PP" just means the round was stopped completely in the plate. Whether that actually happened or there's shenanigans afoot, I dunno but I always like assuming the ugliest answer when it comes to this stuff. It seems pretty clear the GARMS 3 is much weaker than the standalone 1635 going off test reports.

>>65325843
you can go retard pressure with any cartridge.
the army knows this, that's why they chose 6.8.
fundamentally, retard pressure is a stopgap.
it's what you do when you're too lazy to properly replace your rifles and ammunition with something properly designed.
hicar will have even more problems than m855a1 did.

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>>65325933
>you can go retard pressure with any cartridge.
So let's do that with 5.56 and exploit having a lighter, easier to control round with smaller magazines and which we can carry far more of versus 6.8.
>the army knows this, that's why they chose 6.8.
With the 25 round ron jeremy boner mags and way less ammo to weight ratio versus 5.56?
>it's what you do when you're too lazy to properly replace your rifles and ammunition with something properly designed.
SOCOM is lazy? That's your argument? Homes they are the most anal motherfuckers when it comes to body armor.
Ceradyne sold them two plates with BAD GLUE... ONE TIME (about 5-10% had delam issues)... and they lost every single contract they had with SOCOM, which was all of them.
>hicar will have even more problems than m855a1 did.
I have a feeling this statement will age poorly. Watch, HICAR will go off perfectly and Assfacts and Hop will shill the everloving shit out of commercial HICAR uppers and ammo.
Then all the gangbangers in every hood will concoct "Super ARPs" with 85k PSI M855+ and chode muzzle brakes.
Then it will be OVER for all-PE plates just as it is OVER for steel! Muahahahaha!

All shall bow before the ceramic world order.

>>65325941
my point is that it's not +p+++ 5.56 vs normal alternative cartridge.
if procurement thinks retard pressure is acceptable,
they will therefore solicit for a cartridge better than 5.56 with retard pressure.
these are not mutually exclusive.
like why choose HICAR 5.56 when you could choose HICAR 6 arc?
>socom
they buy literally anything and everything because they are overfunded.
they will pursue every possible option available and nobody can stop them.
there's like a dozen different replacement programs that they have already completed and they're still doing more just because they can.
there's the LICC, a few different 6 arc rifles already adopted,
all the weird DMRs they seem to buy on a quarterly basis at this point,
then there's the shit they're doing with .338 machine guns.
nobody has ever really been able to fix ARs breaking bolts without changing the shape of the AR bolt itself like knights did.
you're not gonna put this pipe bomb ammo in a normal rifle and get good results.

and it's not like socom has never had a bad program.
5.56 scars are utterly useless, the EBR is a shit rod,
mk12 was supplanted by RIS II nearly as soon as it came out,
despite being the most hypebeasted gun ever by 'gram larpers.

the only reason HICAR exists is because socom has a ton of 5.56 they don't want to waste.
the cartridge survives on industry momentum alone. it has no tangible advantage.

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>>65325971
Alright, so you're much more reasonable than the SIG shill was.
>they will therefore solicit for a cartridge better than 5.56 with retard pressure.
Yes but 6.8x51mm is too far for a general purpose cartridge. Why not, say, .264 USA?
>like why choose HICAR 5.56 when you could choose HICAR 6 arc?
Why not both? They each have specific tasks. 6mm ARC for long range, 5.56 for regular business.
>they buy literally anything and everything because they are overfunded.
They literally just get all their plates from LTC. I was using the body armor example to show they are very rational (perhaps too rational) with certain things.
>then there's the shit they're doing with .338 machine guns.
This is actually based as hell because XM1224 guarantees Chinese armor defeat for the next...
>checks notes to see how far the Chinese are getting along with AlMgB14-TiB2 ceramic
Ten years.
>you're not gonna put this pipe bomb ammo in a normal rifle and get good results.
I was proposing the reverse. Push comes to shove put the regular ammo in the beefed up rifle. You have massive stocks of 5.56.
>the only reason HICAR exists is because socom has a ton of 5.56 they don't want to waste.
Which in itself is a huge advantage for 5.56 and enables rapid switching of production lines. There is a massive amount of tested and developed 5.56 loads over the years. Want extreme AP? Call up Liberty for that 110gr. HICARize it.
Want mega terminal ballistics? Tungsten-tin blended metal fragmenting.
Of course all this can be switched to 6mm ARC but at the end of the day a huge amount of the industry is built around 5.56.
>the cartridge survives on industry momentum alone.
Conceded, but that in itself justifies HICAR.
> it has no tangible advantage.
Brah

6.8 would be a fine DMR cartridge, but it's not the right call for replacing 5.56.

>>65326005
I've heard MSAPs aren't really 6x6, that they're more like 5.5x5.5, is that true?

>>65326005
5.56 has no advantage over arc. the only reason to invest in this cartridge is because it's cheaper.
it's holding small arms back. the military has replaced cartridges before,
this is not some insurmountable problem. it's simply easier to kick the can down the road.
armor is not really the same type of product as weapons and ammo.
you are not expending it at anywhere near the same rate and the only comparability requirement is that it fits in a plate pocket,
but even that isn't really important because they also have a bunch of obscure plate cuts.
and there are other manufacturers making weird shit like velocity systems titanium concealed armor with custom profiles.

>>65326057
>but even that isn't really important because they also have a bunch of obscure plate cuts.
They have one weird cut, the ULV cut seen with the VelSys ULV-series plates like the PSTES, PULV, PXULV, and rarely the PBZSA.
VelSys is trying to get them hooked on that new Wraith-cut fent, 20% more coverage but at the expense of more weight versus SAPI. They forgot to cook with the carrier and the only plate in that cut is a lame-o all-PE plate that probably loses to 7N6.
>and there are other manufacturers making weird shit like velocity systems titanium concealed armor with custom profiles.
Yes that's the PULV plate in the ULV-2 setup.
>5.56 has no advantage over arc.
You sure?
>the only reason to invest in this cartridge is because it's cheaper.
That's a pretty big advantage. You know everyone could have 5lb M993-rated plates by now if this thing called money wasn't a limitation.
>the military has replaced cartridges before
5.56 has a ridiculous amount of institutional inertia. It's been around for sixty years, more time than the US ran .30-06, and that was two world wars and change!
>it's holding small arms back
Yeah... but money.

>>65326033
I just checked both of mine for ya, they are both 6x5.5 on the dot. Good on Ceradyne for having literally zero variance...
>pity Hesco, Highcom, Point Blank, and RMA can't figure that out.

>>65325868
>>65325901
>>65325926
What impresses me with these results; the GARMS 3, for being .73", did impressively well on the M2AP with just <22mm BFD. The 1165 is almost as thin, and sits at almost 37mm BFD (no shot location given however).
Might just hold out until I can find some ESAPIs, but the GARMS 3 is at least a decent option if push comes to shove for what I need.

>>65326124
Here's the trick. The GARMS 3 was tested with soft armor, so in order to get those results you need to meet or exceed the specific soft armor panel it was tested with, because the soft armor functions as backer. It both catches fragments which might make it through AND reduces BFD.
If you run a weaker IIIA panel, since they really aren't all the same, you'll get worse results.

>>65326084
cheapness is not intrinsic to 5.56. it's a consequence of being the cartridge stoner chose.
it simply met the vague requirement of being intermediate.
the AR could just as well have been adopted with a 6mm cartridge.
the fact that the army adopted 6.8 is proof that 5.56 is replaceable. it already has been.
the fact that the army previously failed to replace it is not evidence of superiority,
it's evidence of just how much of a lead weight it is.
and in the end we still got stuck with an AR10 because of corruption and a lack of willingness to retrain soldiers on something better.
it's ultimately a failure of leadership. you can't do anything without convincing congress that the new gun is a billion percent better.
that's why all these programs have retarded requirements like the FCS or giga armor penetration.

>>65326148
>the AR could just as well have been adopted with a 6mm cartridge.
DocGKR did speak very highly of 6.8 SPC as a police carbine round fifteen years ago. It has more headroom in the AP department (SSA had some Level IV-busters way back when) and terminal ballistics are better if apples to apples.
>the fact that the army adopted 6.8 is proof that 5.56 is replaceable
At great expense and controversy.
>and in the end we still got stuck with an AR10 because of corruption and a lack of willingness to retrain soldiers on something better.
Sadly yes. It would have done better if they just ran .277 USA or something but somebody with a lot of pull thought a pair of plates covering your vitals made you into Iron Man.
>WILSON GILLIAM BUILT THIS XSAPI IN A GARAGE... WITH A BOX OF CHINKSHIT
>that's why all these programs have retarded requirements like the FCS or giga armor penetration.
Ain't that the truth. What was the original claim for NGSW's armor pen? 300 meters for XM1186, 600 meters for XM1184 against some undescribed Level IV? Completely ridiculous numbers but they were floating around years ago.

>>65326163
6.8 is really the worst of the "improved" AR cartridges.
the whole premise is that it has more "muzzle energy" which is basically meaningless as a metric.
people thought this magic number would make bullets kill deader.
turns out they just needed open tip match ammo.
because the bullet is the thing that enters your body, not an abstract number.
that's why it's also the most dead of all meme rounds.
and it's the reason NGSW is 6.8. boomers in charge have an irrational hangup on the magical 6.8 diameter.
if hornady wasn't lazy they would have rebated the 6mm arc rim so that it works with normal AR bolts,
but that would make brass slightly harder to produce. it could be ALOT more popular than it is.
nobody in charge of anything is able to say "lets' just make the best thing".
everything gets compromised because a rebated rim would make shareholders angry,
a new gun in a normal cartridge with no gimmicks would make congress angry,
a product designed by anyone knowledgeable would contradict boomer fuddisms.

the point is that 5.56 and the AR and .308 don't have any intrinsic qualities that make them a morbillion percent better than the alternatives.
they were simply chosen a long time ago and nobody is willing to make a new change.
hitler could just say "make me a wunderwaffe" and it would be done. and that's literally how it worked for him.
he didn't micromanage his engineers, he just found the best people and let them do whatever they needed for the most part.
we have been trying to replicate this for decades but we don't have the power structure to enable it.
SOCOM has the autonomy and smaller scale to buy whatever weird ass gun they want. they don't need permission.

>>65326224
>6.8 is really the worst of the "improved" AR cartridges.
the whole premise is that it has more "muzzle energy" which is basically meaningless as a metric.
6.8 SPC has better projectile diameter and runs a heavier round, so you've got beefier fragments... or can get fancy with "APHP" (yes this is/was a thing) if you're in some fucked up future where Norinco didn't get import banned, for selling RPG-7s to gangbangers, and instead sent $27 Level IVs to said gangbangers and people have so many plates now they're throwing them in landfills. We don't live in a timeline that based, which sucks.
Regardless, 6.8 SPC does do AP better than 5.56 up close, hence why DocGKR railed it so hard. 6.5 is better at long range, but Alexander Arms' AP and SLAP Grendel loads didn't pan out. 6mm ARC is best for long range but doesn't match 6.8 SPC terminal ballistics.
>turns out they just needed open tip match ammo.
6.8 SPC version > 5.56 version on the paper cavity graphs.
>that's why it's also the most dead of all meme rounds.
I sometimes think if DocGKR didn't blow all his political capital on 6.8 then NIJ 0101.07 would have an official M993 rating like he wanted. I never understood how he thought 7N37 protection would be needed for law enforcement... like what, was Vlad gonna sell cases of 7N37 to the fucking cartels? He doesn't even have enough 7N37 for his own dudes.
He doesn't even have enough regular ammo!
>he's not a fan of M2AP
>boomers in charge have an irrational hangup on the magical 6.8 diameter.
You got him there.

>>65326235
5.56 fragments just fine with the right projectile. we were just using the wrong projectiles.
we still are because muh war crimes or whatever.
a marginally bigger diameter by itself does not matter.
>cavity graph
you realize that in both instances the target is dead, right? this is what i mean by "more deader".
we don't need wounds to get incrementally bigger. they only need to be big enough to kill, and they are with the right bullet.
by the same token, an FMJ 6.8 spc bullet is just as shit as any other FMJ.
6 arc solves the real problem which is ballistics. we already know how to make a lethal bullet for any caliber. the trick is to actually get it on target.
a long ass 6mm is the best we've done so far.
i know hornady tried .22 arc but that turned out to actually be worse for whatever reason.

>>65326280
>5.56 fragments just fine with the right projectile. we were just using the wrong projectiles.
Yes... but 6.8 has larger permanent cavities and therefore causes exsanguination faster if your shot placement isn't great and OPFOR is drugged up so incapacitation isn't immediate.
>a marginally bigger diameter by itself does not matter.
If you refer to Doc's paper cavity graphs (lol) 6.8 SPC does significantly beat out 5.56. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Not really, I'm just explaining the rationale.
>you realize that in both instances the target is dead, right?
Larger the wound cavity, the faster they bleed. Faster they bleed, the faster they die. 6.8 also has attractive barrier blindness over 5.56 even if loads are apples to apples.
Again, the guy railing 6.8 SPC like it was his wife, ballistics legend DocGKR, is a cop SME and his justifications were for law enforcement purposes.
>we don't need wounds to get incrementally bigger.
The drugs man!
>6mm ARC and other stuff
Great for long range, but 6.8 is better up close. Obviously 6mm is doing better than 6.8 ever did, adoption wise, because cops aren't taking shots at 500 yards.

I agree otherwise with what you're saying, I'm just explaining the rationale for 6.8 SPC.

Alright, I'm working on the UARM infographic and have come to the conclusion UARM is exactly the inverse of Jinwudun.
Jinwudun has shitty ceramic but okay ish PE. UARM has okay ceramic but really shitty PE. We're looking down the barrel at 2psf IIIA panels that also meet DSTU-2 requirements but need trauma pads to reliably go under 44mm BFD, and DSTU is 25mm limit, so this is weird standard-bastardizing worse than when Adept backpedaled like a mofo on the Colossus being VPAM PM-12. It's not.

>>65326300
as far as the drugs go, attacking the skeleton is the solution.
they have to be physically incapable of doing anything.
this is where the pelvic girdle hype came from.
it puts them on the ground no matter what.
my headcanon is that all the guys obsessing over battle rifles back in the day had access to 7.62 sniper ammo which 5.56 had no equivalent to at that time.
a 22 inch m14 with m118 is doing alot more than m193 out of a car-15.

>>65326325
Right, but that's getting harder to do because armor is getting better and better every year. You can cover everything from head to pelvis in Level III if you really like, and most of it IV and above.
I do not get the old obsession on Lightfighter with North Hollywood on steroids turbo goons in juggernaut suits, but maybe that's just something that aged poorly. If that was going to happen, somehow, switching 5.56 out for 6.8 SPC would be a good move.
>it puts them on the ground no matter what.
Theory was that 6.8 SPC gives you more room for error.
>a 22 inch m14 with m118 is doing alot more than m193 out of a car-15
If you want to see a nuke, look at the PRL tungsten-tin blended metal bullets PRL and later DRT were putting out. Horribly expensive however, but mogged Mk262 in the terminal ballistics department.

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>>65326348
i'm not aware of anyone issuing full body rifle armor other than select swat teams.
really we need to use DU cores with a full jacket to keep them safe.
swapping cartridges because one specific loading is better is not compelling.
and in any case, you could go with 6.5 grendel AP which would get you close to 6 arc with a bigger space for AP.
for all we know 6mm is big enough. length is better than width.
>PRL
you mean picrel?

>>65326408
1. Russians and Ukrainians are flirting with very high coverage BR3-BR4 / DSTU-3 rated rifle armor, but you can reliably pierce that with anything north of M855.
2. India's DRDO has developed full torso plates to try and replace SAPI sizing, which isn't gonna work but they're trying it anyway. These can get pretty stiff, they have a standalone XSAPI (Pragati Defender M993) now but it's seemingly not fielded in any real numbers.
Little humiliating that India has an M993 rated plate before RMA and Highcom do but is what it is.
3. MC Armor has flexible RF2 they're pushing hard in central and south america.
4. Verco's boron carbide full torso flexible is super high dollar but is certified 0101.06.
5. Pangolin and other outfits in Europe are apparently making sales.
6. Hong Kong Police are a longtime customer of Bain at Stealth Armor Systems (they are the original customers for the IIIB extra heavy duty soft armor of theirs from the late 90s / early 2000s) and might be looking into his new lighter flavors of Dragonskin.
7. Tencate supposedly still makes Ceraflex but we're not supposed to know that.
All of the above systems are or can be readily made full-torso.
>really we need to use DU cores with a full jacket to keep them safe
On the contrary, DU may self-sharpen itself before even getting to the backer. Twenty years ago, exotic .408 and .375 Cheytac APs were developed using "Liquid Metal" self-sharpening tungsten alloy. More sectional density than DU and better overall performance.
>swapping cartridges because one specific loading is better is not compelling.
Any loading in 5.56 will lose in the terminal ballistics or AP department to its 6.8 SPC counterpart, if other factors are ignored.
>and in any case, you could go with 6.5 grendel AP
Didn't work out for some reason, I dunno why. You'd have to ask Bill at Alexander Arms.
>PRL
Yeah that's the stuff. They also had a 100gr super and 150gr 5.56 subsonic.

>>65326450
i know there are companies that make armor for other parts of the body but i meant examples of organizations fielding it.
i can't imagine anyone is interested in putting hard plates in their dick flaps other than swat.
maybe the flexible armor will gain traction at some point.
isn't self sharpening the whole point of DU? why would it be bad if it self-sharpened before getting to the backer?
also the prl appears to perform the same as normal otm in that chart.
as for 5.56 vs 6.8, i was speaking more in terms of 6.8 vs other alternatives.
even if 6.8 is a bit better close range, that doesn't beat the insane effective range of 6 arc.
the biggest problem with 5.56 is that it gets blown all over hell and the range at which it can fragment is limited.

Where do I find large Esapis on the second hand market? Rev G ofc

>>65326684
Or do I just buy Paraclete 9900SAs from a guy on instagram I've bought from before?

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>>65326684
>where to get esapis
Tacswap, or Gunbroker
>Paraclete 9900SA
Buffman tested these and they put up a good show. Would pay around 400-500 for a pair for those.

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>>65326928
Also if you're ballin' you can get these Armor forge MK7 RF3 plates. They weight 4.5lbs standalone.

Downside is, Armorforge is a bit shady.

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>>65326938
Fake plates, fake company. Buffman literally begged them for plates and they ghosted him. Their own graphics indicate a 0.75" cheat ring. Also their test reports make ZERO sense unless there's a cheat ring. (BZ-API = 42mm BFD, hit on the upper left of the plate. APM2 = 32mm BFD, hit center of the plate.)

>>65326988
Yeah, they might be a little more than "A bit shady"

>>65326988
> graphics
low-effort AI sloppa, only outdone by the Highcoom penis plate

>>65326988
>>65326938
Not to mention there's no way in shit that plate has drop protection at 0.55" thick for a Level IV. The RMA 1165 is strict do not drop at 0.7" standalone. Multi-hit, assuming it can even stop M2AP once, isn't going to be there at all.
The Hesco 4800 has been the lightest commercially available Level IV for a decade for good reason. Improving on it requires either very expensive new grades of PE or exotic / doped ceramics.

>>65327158
My hypothesis is that it's 0.55" around the cheat-ringed edge, and the center of the plate is thicker. Otherwise IDK and it doesn't make much sense.

>>65327177
I think it's nominal and like other sheisty companies just goes up, not down. Actual stated thickness is 0.632" and it's over 4.6lb, so >>65326938 got bad info

>>65327227
0.63" is still super low for a Level IV plate. Not much thicker than the VelSys PBZSA. I think that their cheat ring is to blame and edge thickness is lower than central thickness.

>>65327240
Eh, it's only 0.07" thinner than the RMA 1165. If you use boron carbide, which they are, you can get a thinner solution than Alumina 99.7% like what RMA is rolling.
I do however agree there's edge fuckery.
>Not much thicker than the VelSys PBZSA.
PBZSA at 0.52" thick still needs a crack arrestor for 2x BZ API requirement, this doesn't because Level IVs, by minimum bare definition, are single strike.

>>65327292
This plate claims multiple hit BZ API and B32 API. lol
Pulling the American Blast Systems strategy but multiplying the price by 10x is quite the business model, haha.

>>65325240
Who makes the best iwb holster for the M&P Shield X