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>>65350333
>what would have been the correct course of action for Walker and his team
"We have our orders. Locate survivors. Leave the city immediately. Radio command from outside the storm wall. They send in the cavalry, we go home."

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>>65350333
>DUDE YOU'RE BAD FOR PLAYING THE GAME YOU PAID FOR LOL
Pseudo-intellectual liberal trash
It would make sense if it weren't almost completely fucking linear and you actually made real decisions that led to the bad outcomes like civilians getting WP'd
>BUT YOU CAN LEAVE AT THE BEGINNING AND END THE GAME IMMEDIATELY LOLOLOLOL
Kill yourself
The Intravenous games are actually cool and /k/ approved, they're like hotline miami but more tactical and the creator is currently working on Intravenous 3

>>65350333
Just play it like you are slowly slipping to Khorne and call anyone that cries about your actions a pussy before taking their skulls.

>>65350333
The correct course of action was the determine what the 33rd's status was. Walker was right about that. But the minute they started shooting at him he needed to leave, but he decided to play hero instead and try to fix everything himself.

>>65350333
>>65350384
The game asks you to reflect on the relationship between game and player: questions like that are not for an answer but to get your focus on the subject. Besides it's a very good retelling of Hearth of Darkness.

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>>65350416
>like you are slowly slipping to Khorne
>at the beginning of the game
Tango down.
>late in the game
Kill fucking confirmed!

How did an East German game manage to portray USA servicemen so well?

>>65350384
>BUT YOU CAN LEAVE AT THE BEGINNING
don't you actually not have that option? its been years since i touched this but that's what i recall.

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>>65350465
It was the height of GWOT and it came out in 2012, when the entire American public was hating everything about GWOT. The devs had more than enough to pull from.

>>65350453
I think it's a rather poor adaptation, Apocalypse Now is a good adaptation because it uses the medium of film to add layers over the written word, SOTL barely does anything with the source material other than retelling it. A videogame has the added visual and interactivity layer, and being a hug-the-chest-high wall third person shooter that was considered mid even during the genre's peak gives it little to chew on.
The best part of SOTL is the one where you're trapped in an enclosed space with a heavy trooper and the lights cut out intermittently. It's a well deserved difficulty spike and the way the lights come on and you see that the heavy has moved in the dark and you're shooting at mannequins is such a unique setpiece. Hardly anyone talks about that sequence.
The WP sequence is trash and was done better by Homefront in 2009.

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>>65350475
>don't you actually not have that option?
No.

Originally, the game was supposed to have choices.
There's still one left in the game though. Did you shoot the lynch mob?

>>65350502
There's another. The game gives you an option to shoot the criminals hanging in the bridge.
The game's finale makes your choice moot, but it's presented nonetheless.

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MAR NOSSO BEARS WITNESS

>>65350453
The relationship between the player and the avatar hinges on player agency. If the player can make choices that affect outcomes, then its all on him; whereas if there is only one linear path then the player is only participating in the same way a reader participates in the plot of a book by turning the page. Spec ops accuses the reader for thing characters on the page did, which is totally asinine. This war of mine and papers please are both excellent executions of the same concept, because you choose whether to rob the elderly for your own survival; you choose whether to show compassion and let people with improper documents through, and youre accountable for whatever the results of those decisions. IMO, much of the praise for spec ops is tied up in contemporary gaming politics of the early 2010s, where if you recall there was a lot of insecurity around "games as art"; basically a lot of neckbeards and game journalists were embarrassed that their chosen medium wasn't taken seriously by their parents and colleagues; and obviously people who think games are retarded shit for children are never going to waste time on some dry nerd shit like deus ex or planescape; so specops (being much more accessible than the former examples) was held up as much more than it actually was.

>>65350453
>The game asks you to reflect on the relationship between game and player: questions like that are not for an answer but to get your focus on the subject.
Undertale does that, but much better.
>Besides it's a very good retelling of Hearth of Darkness.
Far Cry 2 was a better one, which also had better gameplay and more interesting moral questions

>>65350384
>Pseudo-intellectual liberal trash
The game itself it totally fine, gameplay was standard for the time, story was interesting and refreshing change from CoD type slop. The lead dev just got high off his own farts and spouted a load of shit during interviews and redditors ate it up

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>>65350576
>Far Cry 2 was a better one
Far Cry 2 is a DRASTICALLY underrated game, but the parallels with Heart of Darkness are surface level, at best.

Also, I'm not going to weigh in on the RE4 vs Remake debate, but the /k/ elements of RE4R are a massive improvement over the original.
>Tactical reloads are acknowledged as something the player will be doinog often, so the reload animations have the PC keep the magazine if there's still bullets in it. I never questioned Leon finding ammo all his guns are chambered for everywhere he looked but I always wondered where he got all those magazines from.
>Guns in general are just more accurate to their real world portrayal. I always thought the Springfield XD was fuckoff huge in RE4 classic. The silver ghost also just looks like a gucci USP9 with a custom frame with a built-in compensator instead of some weird frankengun.
>Knives take the spotlight in gameplay. Multiple different knives (from kitchen utensil to boot knife to combat knife to combat KNOIFE) all with different practical uses and combat applications (shitter knives save your main one from deteriorating, so they're better for stealth kills for example.) This system makes the knife durability mechanic actually have a place beyond simply annoying the player.
>Assault rifle is treated like an actual rifle with serious range and energy rather than a slightly stronger submachine gun. The M4A1 is DEFESTATING in this game, even against armored targets, so rifle rounds are appropriately hard to come by.

The game was great at making the /k/ stuff grounded enough for enthusiasts to appreciate the attention to detail but never annoyed the player with unsolicited realism. It's a great balance. Excellent game.

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>>65350571
>whereas if there is only one linear path then the player is only participating in the same way a reader participates in the plot of a book by turning the page
Which, of course, is why everyone retells the epic battle with Gannondorf by talking about how "Link" did all these things. No, they don't, they say "I". There's a subconscious, visceral connection with the avatar character that not not exist in any other medium. Explain how it doesn't make any sense all you want, but that discussion only ever comes out when the player doesn't like the pre-recorded outcome.

Now, I will take that and diverge from the mainstream commentary on the game, because I find it to be the inverse of the assraped troglodyte up here >>65350384 and say that the kind of people who wind up in games journalism have too much trouble divorcing themselves from the character. Let me give you the meta message of SOTL in one easy sentence:
>Isn't it kinda fucked up how we get so much fun out of pretending to kill people?
That's it. Simple as. And it shows it through a main character who racks up an entirely pedestrian body count for a single-player cover shooter and looses his fucking mind. Because of course someone going through the average shooter protagonist experience would be absolutely FUBAR by the end of it. And yet we regularly pretend to do it for fun. We'll go out of our way to buy a game about how fucked up pretending to kill people for fun is, to have fun thinking about how fucked up it is to pretend to kill people for fun. Surely on this of all boards, we can admit that there is that little bit of a dark spark deep within the human soul that thinks killing people is fun. How much time of the last 5 years have we spent watching people actually die for fun?
That's kinda fucked up.

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>>65350652
One thing I always thought was cool about Resident Evil's universe is how Human civilization and the ruination of said civilization via B.O.W.s are seen as equal, opposing forces constantly at odds rather than a massive wave of zombies that everyone just kind of falls victim to. The worst parts of humanity (Wesker/the Connections) are incredibly destructive and dominating, but the best of humanity (Leon, Chris, Jill, pre 8 BSAA) are all resilient and resourceful, the world constantly feels like it's on the verge of about three or four apocalyptic events, simultaneously but some dude over here and maybe a pal of his or five are REALLY good with conventional weaponry and, as it turns out, guns...ARE better at killing things than body horror with the right person fingerfucking their Samurai Edge.

Also, it's one of the only two pieces of media that made the Beretta look cool. I genuinely wish Joe Kendo was a real person.

Any good roguelikes that are /k/ themed?
Imagine Nuclear Throne but in a more grounded setting.

>>65350660
>That's it. Simple as.
if the game's approach was actually that simple it probably would be good.

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>>65350706
I can't wait for CV and Zero

>>65350660
>Isn't it kinda fucked up how we get so much fun out of pretending to kill people?
No because it's not real unless you're one of those individuals that think people who run over pedestrians in GTA are future serial killers

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Been doing some multicrew with the kiowa in DCS. It'll be fun to start running campaigns with it

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>>65350502
One suddenly shoved me and I flinched so badly that I missed his head by a couple of inches.
>Achievement unlocked: A Line Held

>>65350384
>Pseudo-intellectual liberal trash
Around here we call it 4chan.

>>65350660
That line of thinking has several issues. For starters, we know it's fiction and that these are not real people. It's the same issue films like Hostel had, how can the audience (or player) be held to any sort of moral judgement for engaging in something everyone is overtly aware isn't actually happening? Those starving civilians are lines of code on a disc, just as that college kid getting mutilated to death in a Slovakian warehouse will go on to play Magnum PI. You might as well be claiming that watching porn is the same as being in a relationship with actress on screen. Secondly, if you do take the moral argument at face value there is the problem that the players are third-order moral participants. If you question the players' morality for pretend killing imaginary people for fun, then you have to question the retailers and publishers for providing this as a consumer good, and in turn question the devs for creating the game in the first place for the sake of profit and a philosophical argument. None of the devs showed any introspection or took themselves to task for building a murder simulator for commercial purposes. The argument is at a base level asking if a fantasy bears any amount of the moral and psychological weight of an equivalent real world action, and that's a question you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who'd sincerely answer "yes."

>>65350735
Best answer I can give there is that it has to lay it on thick to break through the gamer callous. See >>65350769's hyperbolic defensive reaction, as if this is some sort of special bad thing directed at him personally. This is normal. This is how people are. But some people really take that personally for some reason, like it's an accusation of some individual fault. And on the flip side, how many games have tried to do something similar without grinding it to the nub and been laughed out of the room to be buried in the sands of games you forgot existed? Protagonists who go "oh I don't like killing people" before butchering their way through half a division without a second thought, only to get antsy again the moment a cutscene starts. The audience is so inured to ultra-violence that redirecting it onto targets the player hasn't pre-defined as acceptable and unworthy of note is how it get that initial cut open.

>>65350833
>If you question the players' morality for pretend killing imaginary people for fun, then you have to question the retailers and publishers for providing this as a consumer good, and in turn question the devs for creating the game in the first place for the sake of profit and a philosophical argument. None of the devs showed any introspection or took themselves to task for building a murder simulator for commercial purposes.
Yep.
>The argument is at a base level asking if a fantasy bears any amount of the moral and psychological weight of an equivalent real world action, and that's a question you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who'd sincerely answer "yes."
And yet we still spend all this time trying to rationalize why it doesn't. That's interesting. It says something about us. That underneath all the rational, logical thought, there's still something that still reacts to it. Simulacra of violence without consequence is deeply attractive to us. Damned near the entire entertainment industry is built around it, from vidya to film to sports to kids playing cowboys and injuns. That's the point: we don't abhor violence, we abhor the consequences of violence.

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>>65350357
>You find another stop sign halfway through the game, draped in "DO NOT CROSS" tape, but it's riddled with bullet holes because heroes don't just give up!

Say what you want about the lack of player agency or whatever, meta and art direction in this game was incredible. I loved some of the blink and you'll miss it hallucinations.
>The lone dead tree that I SWEAR was just alive and vibrant...
>Is it just me, or did those bodies of men tortured to death just change positions?
>Did someone scratch the eyes out of all the people on the murals in the past few hours or so? It's almost like they can't even look at me, anymore...
>Is that Konrad's face on that billboard?
>Is that MY face on that billboard!?
>In the final cutscenes, when Konrad is talking, but off screen, Walker's mouth is moving.

Are there any I missed? I'm actually hoping to replay the game and see them all because combing through lets plays or YouTube compilations is for lowlifes.

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>>65350889
>See >>65350769's hyperbolic defensive reaction, as if this is some sort of special bad thing directed at him personally.

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>>65350333
Pic related is still tits. Better than SOCOM, which also deserves mention.
Also shout out Delta Force 1 - BHD.
Parasite Eve
Syphon Filter
BF BC1&2 + 3
Old school COD
Blast Doors

New stuff almost invariably sucks unless it is flight or race sim.

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>>65350333
>The game beats you over the head with the meta "none of this would have happened if you had just stopped playing"
The irony here is that Bioshock employs the same tactic, but that game is considered royalty among gamers.

>>65350918
>The irony here is that Bioshock employs the same tactic
No it doesn't?

>>65350893
>And yet we still spend all this time trying to rationalize why it doesn't.
No, the rationales are in response to people claiming that it does. In a vacuum, nobody would waste precious hours of their life trying to explain why fictional things aren't real, because its otherwise self-evident.
>That's the point: we don't abhor violence, we abhor the consequences of violence.
Not even that, we abhor violence that isn't on our own terms. Example: women overwhelmingly don't like getting raped; yet if you were to note the most popular tags in womens fiction, you would get the impression they do. Because willingly partaking in the fantasy of being aggressively taken by the big rich jacked furry wolf hybrid while careless whisper instrumental plays in the background is not the same as being drugged IRL by a jeet in a bar.

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>>65350333
The gameplay is not great.
The story undermines itself by trying to not be like other girls.
The multi-player sucked.
It honestly drags on too long for what it is as well.
I remember when it came out, there were so many on the shelf at gamestop because no one wanted it. What made this game a hit was total biscuit giving it a good review and tripling down on being wrong.

>>65350893
>And yet we still spend all this time trying to rationalize why it doesn't
Because someone inevitably makes the same arguments as the devs and, much like them, refuse to take "it's fiction, we know it's fiction, it has no bearing on real life" for an answer. Because they're not actually interested in an actual argument, they just want to castigate from a tower of assumed moral superiority. Which is why you sidestepped any point being made against you in favor of repeating yourself.

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>>65350896
>After The Gate, when you rappell down a rope on the side of a building, Lugo's reflection will be hanging by his neck

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>>65350926
It does. The player is presented with the illusion of choice, but game progression only happens one way. By the end, you're railroaded into the ultimate thesis of the writer and the only way to avoid it is to literally stop playing the game.

>>65350955
There is no suggestion anywhere to stop playing or condemnation for not doing so which is what you claimed

>>65350929
>The story undermines itself by trying to not be like other girls.
I'd feel remiss if I didn't point out that the OG Modern Warfare series has the exact same themes as Spec Ops minus the metatexual Heart of Darkness adaptation. And it does it while playing the genre straight. Spec Ops is just a long-winded version of No Russian.

>>65350955
>>65350959
The difference is that Bioshock presents itself as a conventional narrative, not a metanarrative (though it has meta elements).

War Fantasy will be bad but I'm still interested.

I want autistic hex and chit style wargames with logistics that are well modeled but in a fantasy setting. I wish that existed in videogame form. No clue if it does in boardgame form but I am not interested in playing tabletop strategy.

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>>65350945
CC: >>65350927
I am saying that
>it has no bearing on real life
is the point. That's what makes it acceptable. That's what makes it fun. You're attacking the wrong argument because you're too used to hearing it. "It's okay to be an awful person as long as it doesn't matter". The assertion is not wrong. But we still call it awful. We still recognize the wrong, and then start applying reasons why it doesn't apply to us. And that's what makes it fascinating; that the assertion that it doesn't matter matters so much. That we are having this whole fucking argument trying to affirm that "it doesn't matter". It doesn't just not matter, we NEED it to not matter. That even the suggestion of "what if it could matter" riles up such a dedicated assertion of "BUT IT DOESN'T" is fascinating. And that matters more than the thing itself not mattering. It doesn't matter, but we still act like we're coping anyway.

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>>65350913
I used to play that in conflict desert Storm couch co-op with my dad in the middle of the night and we would see who would get the best score in socom. This was before he lost his fucking mind

>>65350893
It's insincere to posit an argument and then suggest if the person disagrees with you that is them trying to rationalize it away and thus proving themselves wrong. It's on a level of "Senator when did you stop beating your wife" and when the senator explains they never beat their wife and why you are wrong to accuse them of such going
>You really think about beating your wife a lot, don't you? That says something about you.

>>65351050
The only reason "It's okay to do awful fiction so long as it doesn't matter" is even rationalized away is in defense of wanna-be-socratics like yourself who level that charge in the first place. Nobody had to wrestle with the angst of Indians and Cowboys until someone bites the apple of eden and starts to posit the sinfulness of fictionalized violence. Until someone like you comes along there is no coping being done.

Get ye gone.

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>>65350995
>No clue if it does in boardgame form
Hoo boy

I really like playing Forever Winter. It is very /comfy/.

>>65351170
Did you miss the fantasy part? I am pretty sure Italy is real.

>>65351178
>Did you miss the fantasy part?
I did, sorry
>I am pretty sure Italy is real
Their WW2 participation is the fantasy aspect....

>>65351131
If there were no need to draw a distinction between real and fictional violence, then there would be no difference, and fictional violence would be morally equivalent to real violence. It would be the navel-gazing sophists who created that distinction in the first place. So I'm going to assume that you're just communicating poorly and that's not the thread you were trying to go down. So instead, I'm going to assume that you're trying to say that the distinction has been established since time immemorial, and therefore any attempt to examine it is unworthy of consideration. Even when the conclusion is that it exists, and that it is a good thing that it exists, because the thought that it might not exist is utterly unpalatable.

The difference between violence, or other amoral events, that occure on video games versus other forms of media is the self insertion.
A movie, book, or song all tell a story you absorb. You are not the main character. This changes instantly when you can control the main character, even if their actions are atill played out by script. One could watch a movie about civs catching mortar rounds of WP but once you are the one deploying the munitions it takes a different turn. If you had to push the next chapter button while watching a movie the next scene would feel much more impactful. You enabled it to progress even if it was the only outcome. You can turn a movie off just as you can a video game but a movie will continue once you start it regardless of you choices. A video game will only progress if you do the specific actions needed making you an accessory.

>>65350543
Great Leader was the best thing to ever happen to that shit planet

>>65351203
>If there were no need to draw a distinction between real and fictional violence, then there would be no difference, and fictional violence would be morally equivalent to real violence
What? There is no need to draw the distinction because one thing is obviously real and the other is obviously not; that doesn't mean they're equivalent in moral weight. You're too lost in the sauce.

>>65350995
Shadow Empire is kinda that

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>>65351326
No, it isn't. Really cool game though.

>>65351203
This is a black-and-white fallacy, pretending that either fictionalised violence is the same as real violence, or that it doesn't matter at all.
The answer can be somewhere in the middle - it does not carry the same impact on the world as real violence, yet it does have a degree of impact. Simple stakeholder analysis proves this on a prima facie basis: fantasising about killing over and over and over again might conceivably affect the psyche of the individual doing the fantasising, but it certainly has zero impact on the imagined victims, who are not killed by the mere act of fantasy, let alone over and over again.

Hence it is irrelevant and borderline disingenuous to say that since fantasy killing doesn't take any actual lives, it must therefore have no impact on the fantasiser. This reasoning is not right.

>>65351339
You're a fucking retard, man. It's as violent as scribbling out a drawing. These are just programmed animated polygons that can be rendered in and out infinitely. Pretending it's deep doesn't make it so.

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>>65351321
>There is no need to draw the distinction because they are distinctly different
You're running in circles. You're denying the distinction by appealing to the distinction. Therefore, the distinction exists.
>Why does the distinction exist?
Because it's not real.
>Why does it matter that it's not real?
Because it's not real

And that's the joke. It is blindingly obvious, entirely true, and completely circular. There is no closed logical sequence here, but we still know it to be true intrinsically. And inside the psychological pressure cooker of an interactive violent imagery generator with an avatar that you WILL mentally graft onto, that barrier is very thin and easy to pick at. That the people who recoiled from it seem to be carrying more long-term trauma than the people who got dug into is just funny in general and probably worthy of examination in its own right.
>>65351294
Your technical argument on interactivity starts running afoul of >>65350571's page-turning argument. You started off on a better track, in that the subconsious projection onto the avatar is the real key. That incredible human capacity to empathize with anything, when coupled with the nature of a shooter as an interactive graphic violence generator, doesn't produce a hard difference from other media, but a mental one. The psyche suspends its disbelief to a greater degree than other media, which is what makes it so easy to prod.
>>65351339
We're working with a very limited and specific model here. This isn't protracted fantasizing like you'd get out of a League player, it's the nature of culpability in a scripted single-player setting.

>>65350465
(((hollywood))) was busy trying to busy getting its golem to serve

>>65351373
Do you speak english?

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>>65350652
perpeteia does all those things better

>>65350889
or youre just a fucking faggot who over intellectualizes everything

>>65350660
>How much time of the last 5 years have we spent watching people actually die for fun?
jews have

>>65350660
>No, they don't, they say "I"
How fucking disingenuous do you have to be that you're outright willing to stand your argument on a lie? There are thousands of hours of video essays alone in which the speaker tells of fictional characters doing fictional things in video games. Yes, the PLAYER is pushing buttons to achieve a goal in an interactive medium, but it is the CHARACTER that kills Ganandorf or follows the damn train.
Anybody who directly identifies as the hero of time most likely would have a psychological disorder that inhibits the distinction between imagination and reality. Your supposition is that, somehow, the vast majority of players fail to draw this distinction. Your source?
>oh well it's just common knowledge, man
Fucking ingrate. Go choke on the collective works of Freud.

>>65350688
Is stalker 2 finally worth playing? Have they fixed the shit eating AI or am I going to wait another two years for a modder to do the devs job?

>>65350384
You're not the one in control nigga, Walker is. You're just there to look at how he fucked up in the after-action report and see what NOT to do.
You wouldn't get hung up watching a SNAFU cartoon, would you?

>>65351391
Cool. Now how do YOU describe YOUR playthrough? That's the point, the player-avatar connection. That is what distinguishes video games from everything else. The player intrinsically assumes credit for the avatar's accomplishments. But when presented with his fuck ups, well here people are still seething a decade later.

Based Euro game exposing GWOTnigger

>>65351400
Sort of, the biggest problem is always going to be performance. You need a decent rig to play on medium to high settings and even then, the Lighting and Shading being tied to the UE5 post-processing affects makes the game look horrible in some areas. And if you decide to change it, some anomalies will be invisible because their affects are bound by post-processing.
The story is boring in some places and becomes a massive slog at the very end.
It's a fun post-apocalypse like setting as long as you can have fun getting lost in the Zone. But even then, it still feels lack-luster with the survival elements. It would benefit heavily from a Skill Tree.

>>65350706
The other one being Parasite Eve
The 92FS became my dream gun thanks to that game

>>65351407
Don't ask a question and then fill in the answer. I just called you out for being disingenuous.
Your player-avatar connection is based on a falsehood: that the fourth wall is a ubiquitous abstraction. Decisions made in a video game are based on the assumption that a fictional character is following a theoretical psychological template. We don't hear or read the internal dialogue of Link, so we don't really know as an audience what's going through his mind throughout Ocarina of Time. However, we do know he's willing to put a sword through Ganandorf's flesh. The acknowledgement of his willingness on the part of the player does not mean the player will ever be able to endure the psychological stress of putting a sword through a person's flesh.
What breaks your stance defending Spec Ops: The Waste-of-Time is that the decisions presented to the player are also falsehood. The protagonist suffers hallucinations and sees things that aren't there. The issue the players were confronted with was not an incredible moral ambiguity in the grand scheme of war, it was a rug-pull. The player was making theoretical decisions based on information that was falsified, then the player was called out for it. The writers were hacks and you're at least as much of a fucking idiot as they.

I just fantizised about murdering someone. Fuck, better go turn myself in, I'm looking at hard time in the slammer guys.

>>65351407
No player takes credit for scripted achievements lmao, what a weird thing to claim.

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>>65351430
My favorite Florida Man headline.

>>65351422
And for all that, you have never finished a game and told your friends "Link beat Gannondorf" or "Red beat the Elite Four" or "Doomguy killed the Spider Mastermind". The player's natural inclination is to assume responsibility for the avatar's actions. That does not happen in any other medium. That is what makes having the avatar do something unjustified such a sharp dagger that evokes such strong reactions. And that's worth wiggling at: that reflexive self-absolution, snapping down and scarring over. Not just a healthy distancing from the avatar, but outright bitterness and resentment towards anything the blame can be shifted to, implicitly admitting that there IS blame to be had. And that's where the second magic trick comes in, because that's exactly what Walker turns into post-WP. The severance of identification with Walker turns into sharing the mentality of Walker. And that's downright funny.

>>65351359
>whoosh

>>65351370
Without addressing the question at all, I was pointing out that anon's line of reasoning itself was already fallacious

>>65351458
But in those cases the player did beat Ganondorf. The game presented a gameplay challenge to the player (a boss encounter) and the player beat the boss through player skill. It is perfectly fair to say that 'you' beat Ganondorf, since you actually did overcome the challenge by player input. When watching a scripted sequence in a game, watching a movie or reading a book, 'you' didn't do jack shit. And again, no player takes credit for scripted achievements, and no player should take personal responsibility over what happens in scripted negative sequences either (which is obvious).

>>65351458
Once again, you asked a question and filled in your own answer. When people discuss the lore of a game, they do, in fact, say Red beat the Elite Four. Any talk about what pokemon were used for that confrontation and what moves they learned to get to that point are actually about the mechanical input of the game itself.
Fully-accurate saying: "I manipulated a Gameboy with a specific cartridge and spent 20 hours selecting inputs due to various stimuli presented on the screen."
Colloquial phrasing for the sake of brevity with the shared understanding of how video games work: "I played Pokemon Red and beat the Elite Four."
I think the common denominator in this conversation is that you don't share in that understanding, intentional or otherwise. You hear someone way they beat the Elite Four and you think they've achieved a fugue state of reality and fiction.

>>65351438
The Florida man with a heart of gold

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>>65351468
>they've achieved a fugue state of reality and fiction.
I did actually Harden and then use Pound on Phoebe

>>65351480
I know you're lying because Phoebe only uses ghost types. Harden all you want, you can't Pound a ghost... unless you get them SOAKING WET first.

Say what you will, but very few pieces of media manage to spark discussion that isn't straight shitflinging like SOTL does. Maybe it's a bad game, but sure as fuck it's good art.

>>65351490
The quality of the art is not directly proportionate to the quality of discussion about it. That's a severe copout.

>>65350384
>Pseudo-intellectual liberal trash
wut
Do you faggots just call EVERYTHING you don't like "liberal"?

>>65351485
>Lick
>Metronome

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>>65351468
>You hear someone way they beat the Elite Four and you think they've achieved a fugue state of reality and fiction.
And you accuse me of being disingenuous. So let's try and walk this down to somewhere more sane: the sense of accomplishment. Vidya gives you the feel of having *done* something. That is what they do, that is what makes them special. And when that sense is twisted, the wall doesn't just go up, it sparks anger. It creates a desire to find something else to "credit" it to, as if there were actually something to be held at fault about.
>>65351464
>and no player should take personal responsibility over what happens in scripted negative sequences either (which is obvious)
But you add one trigger pull, and suddenly you have all of this.

>>65351377
Perpeteia is shit though.

>>65351503
That's your argument? That you have *done* something in a game, so you have a personal connection to the protagonist?
There was this one guy who had a lot of military experience who talked about the effects of killing on the psyche of the killer. I will not assume you've read On Killing, but I won't assume you haven't read it either; Dave Grossman posed an argument tangential to the aspect of killing in the form of video games. His argument was against violence in video games as they would strengthen the ability for future generations to engage in physical violence, hardening their minds to the idea of killing through a harmless medium. His argument was deeply flawed because, while he understood the real and measurable psychological effects of homicide, he did not understand the psychological effects of playing video games. I don't blame him for this assumption. He held genuine concern for children and video games did not have enough of a lifespan nor immersion to find the measurable effects from playing them.
Where his argument and yours are both flawed is the word "sense" as you've used it here. You have assumed a shape of the sense players have for a video game as they're playing it. You have made assumptions based on that first assumption, like how there's a player-avatar connection and how "twisting" that "sense" can "spark anger." Meanwhile, you're so wrapped up in your assumptions, you're not listening to the words people are actually trying to communicate to you. Dave Grossman, on the other hand, could not reckon with the fact that as video games entered culture, players are less likely to engage in physical violence. It's a problem of assumption.
I'll ask you a question this time. Do you believe I am angry because the video game twisted my sense of accomplishment?

/k/ is one of the last places I thought I would see someone talk about how violence needs to be more critically examined in media

>>65351534
4chan has the widest range of intellectual discussion on the open internet in terms of quality and /k/ is a board about the instruments of violence. Once in a while, this can happen.
I'm going to call you a newfag now and I know I'm right. Lurk moar.

>>65350954
I think that's Walker thinking about hanging after the white phosphorous thing

>>65351531
>That's your argument? That you have *done* something in a game, so you have a personal connection to the protagonist?
That is the common link. Like I said, the assumption of the credit for the protagonist's actions. I am not talking about any wonky voodoo shit here, just the most basic stuff we take for granted when playing a game. We say "I" when playing a game. We do not say that about movies, books or TV. There is a more intimate connection.
>On Killing
I read On Combat, still have it lying around here somewhere. It had a reprint of that chapter, and I remember rolling my eyes at it, so if I've reminded you too much of it, then fair enough.
>I'll ask you a question this time. Do you believe I am angry because the video game twisted my sense of accomplishment?
If I'm being honest, the demographic that actually got full-ass blindsided is probably pretty damned small out of the entire playerbase. Second post just really set the tone in a nasty way, and that kinda carried down. If I'm following the chain back up correctly, there's no indication that you've even played it. So, yes, I was wrong to drag it back into that side of the argument and I should have paid more attention to that. So let me try this one more time.
>Colloquial phrasing for the sake of brevity with the shared understanding of how video games work: "I played Pokemon Red and beat the Elite Four."
I assert that that's not just a meaningless colloquialism. It is a statement of ownership of those actions. That we do it so naturally is the magic of video games. That people can be driven to intense emotion when that same subconscious *thing* is exploited to say "that's your fault" is also the magic of video games.

>>65351568
Then what you call ownership is what many call enjoyment or entertainment. Not because you feel that way yourself, but because either method is an insufficient one-word description to the relationship between fiction and its audience. People CAN be driven to intense emotion from fiction. I assert that the most likely cause of this (the few times, as you pointed out, it does happen overall) is prior psychological distress at a minimum and a diagnosable disorder at the maximum. The inability to discern fiction from reality is obviously not a common issue and my heart really does go out to those that have suffered trauma that weakens that divide, hence why I brought up Grossman.
I agree on everything else in your post there. You also figured out the full subtext of my question, which answered it to my satisfaction. Before I keep talking with you about the game, I want to make a last divergence to the fourth wall itself. There's a greentext from a way back that I can't find about a guy playing Far Cry 2 when his dad walks in to watch. His dad is quiet for most of it, but there's a bit where an ally gets critically injured and the protag is trying to apply first aid. To the guy playing the game, it's still just a game. He's still holding a controller and looking/listening for cues. But the guy's dad tells him to keep trying to fix him up. The protag can't bring the ally back from death and dad says half to himself, "Not again," and he walks away. Something to consider about the realism of games, and how playing them isn't a necessity to feeling something deep. But it's not a guarantee, either.
I wish I could find that greentext. I spent a few minutes looking for it.

>>65351503
>But you add one trigger pull, and suddenly you have all of this

Yes, but all of 'this' is just some people refusing to differentiate between reality and fiction for whatever reason, and then acting obtuse just to prolong their extremely flimsy argument.

There you are, playing your CoD-clone shooter, and all of a sudden... you're a war criminal.

>>65350918
>royalty among gamers.

maybe in 2010 lol.

>>65351628
Yeah, Systen shock 2, the game that Bioshock rips off, is way better than Bioshock ever was. Bioshock is alright though.

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>>65351601
>either method is an insufficient one-word description to the relationship between fiction and its audience
Fair. I am pretty deep down in the weeds and more or less inventing terminology here, so please bear with me if I have another slip like that.
> I assert that the most likely cause of this (the few times, as you pointed out, it does happen overall) is prior psychological distress at a minimum and a diagnosable disorder at the maximum
For instance, "Intense" may have been too strong of a word. But the way that people have reacted to it for so long, such as second post again, bears enough resemblance to a traumatic response to be interesting. But that might just as much be "everyone who disagrees with me is seething" syndrome as it is anything of substance. In that light, the fact that some people are still butthurt about it all these years later does more to challenge the idea that it's a game, it means nothing than the game itself.

And I suppose that's the most succinct version of all my sperging that I can come up with. I still need to grab a little sleep before work, so I'll probably be out for about 12 hours. Glad to have walked things down with you, sorry to have gotten them there in the first place.

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>>65350913
This game was so FUCKING hard as a kid. I remember spending hours trucking through this game to make sure all my people made it out every mission. That final mission with the tank was brutal and took me the better part of a weekend to beat

>>65351503
Armchair psychology

>>65351531
>Dave Grossman
Utter pseud

>>65351534
Hobby boards are the best boards for other subjects because they attract autists who are relatively well-rounded in those other areas and only ornery retards in this one
Hence the saying that the best discussions of any topic are on the boards not of that topic

>>65351601
>>65351643
Please allow a certified social scientist (fwiw) to interject.
The basics of Western scientific theory is that a hypothesis must hang on a theory of reason. Then, we gather evidence to support that theory.
The theoretical background that "video games might impact the psyche of the player" is prima facie sound. However, basically zero evidence has been gathered to support it. This throws the reasoning into extreme doubt.

>>65351534
There is nothing incongruous with having a distaste for wanton violence but also thinking guns are cool.

>>65352019
>There is nothing incongruous with having a distaste for wanton violence
Yeah in real life not in video games

What does it mean for a person if they acknowledge the themes of Spec Ops but also had a fun experience?

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>>65350543
the demo has been great. I can't wait for early access next month.

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>>65352152
Being normal.

>>65350962
And?

>>65352152
>What does it mean for a person if they acknowledge the themes of Spec Ops but also had a fun experience
Disingenuous fad faith question. This exact thread has been made for about 15 years. Everyone acknowledged the themes as garbage, and the gameplay is mid, so having fun is out of the question. What you're asking is why won't people roll over and agree with you? Because you're wrong.

>>65350652
I never played the OG RE games, and I bought the remasters for a crazy discount on steam. Do they hold up to the originals, or are they just nostalgia bait?

>>65352332
Re1 remake is heads and shoulders better than the original, which ia clunky but amazing
Re2 remake is heads and shoulders better than the original, which is still amazing.
Re3make is a pile of shit cashgrab that clearly should have been dlc. The original is fantastic.
Re4 remake depends on taste. I prefer the original more but cant deny the remake is very well done
>re5 is underated, re6 isnt that bad, re7 is overrated trash, fight me

>>65351603
It's a little crazy that like 6 months ago that game had half the aircraft, vehicles and maps it's got now.

>>65352357
I just like how Ashley sounded scared as fuck in the 4 remake. I like it for my own reasons.

>>65352569
I preferred the monkey faced ear piercing ashley from the original for some reason

>>65352580
She's funnier and more iconic, but I prefer the whimpering and voice cracks from the remake's VA. And when she screams, she sounds scared. Amazing performance.

>>65352585
The voice acting has been consistently fantastic in the remakes
>ada

>>65352539
I really enjoyed the playtest but I have a blanket ban on early access games at the moment. I really want to get it but I can't justify it.

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>>65350652
>Knives take the spotlight in gameplay.
This game definitely bothered to make the "use Knifes next time, better for close encounters" claim reflect well in gameplay. In the OG, it was just something you used after you knocked a fucker on his ass to save bullets.

>>65351203
Do you believe Doom caused Columbine?

>>65350333
Tbh, I wouldn't mind a remake of this game, like what Capcom's doing with RE. It's no longer purchasable outside of used physical copies, and honestly, it could use a modern day interpretation, what with modern day CoD being such a shitshow. It's got it's roots in GWOT, but the circumstances of the game work on a sliding timescale; all you have to do is change everyone's kit.

>>65350706
The Beretta 92 really doesn't need help looking cool though. That said, can't wait to finish my own Samurai Edge clone. Waiting for Collector Design Werks to do another run of grips, I was too slow the last time preorders came around.

>>65352332
It really depends on what you want to get out of them. The easiest comparison is between RE1 and REmake, since the mechanics are so similar. RE1 is like a fun cheesy B movie and has a cool amount of reactivity so you have more replay value, while REmake is generally a better game but you trade the fun B movie cheese for something a little more serious. Both are good times though. If you really only want to play one of them, do the REmake.

RE2make and RE3make are very different games from the originals for a number of reasons but mostly due to the very different gameplay. The fixed camera angles feel completely different to the over the shoulder 3rd person gameplay. I think that RE2 is a better game than RE2make because its a more dynamic game and more in-line with RE1 and REmake, but that's really subjective to your own tastes. RE3make is undeniably a worse game than RE3 though. RE4 and RE4make are similar enough that it's really subjective which is better, but I prefer the more fun tone of the original, it's quite silly. So like >>65352357 said but I disagree about RE2. Really, if there's one game in the series where playing both is mandatory, it's RE2 and RE2make.

>>65352332
they're completely different games and you should play both if you care

>>65351480
God bless Ken Sugimori.

>>65352702
RE3 is so fucking good that the absolute shit show that is 3make has put me off Capcom for good. I haven't and won't give them money until they atone for that horrible sin.

>>65352632
>In the OG, it was just something you used after you knocked a fucker on his ass to save bullets.
Except you had to use the knife on Professional

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>>65350333
Pretentious game is pretentious.
Anyway for /k/ vidya, I recommend:
Kinki Spiritual Affairs Bureau
Morimiya Middle School (free real-time action game)
Gray Zone Warfare (Tarkov meets World of Warcraft)

>>65350576
Fart Cry 3 is the best video game telling of Heart of Darkness because it's the only one that does the "being a murderous animal is FUN!" thing and actually makes it fun and gives you narrative and gameplay reasons to want to continue to descend into monstrosity.

Of course no one with 2 brain cells goes full Kurz at the end.

>>65352848
I did. Screw the whiny girlfriend I'm getting that wildwoman poontang. And the only line I remember other than Vaaz's monologue was the pseduo-maoris yelling, "WHY DO YOU BETRAY US?" ambushing their vehicles over and over.
Then after I finally finished it, Blood Dragon drops.
10/10 never played another Far Cry after that because, well, how could you top that?

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>>65352684
Capcom needs to remake Dino Crisis.

>>65350968
And we can't forget that it literally does it better in every way fucking possible compared to the line. Legit I cannot stand this fucking game.

>>65352881
Capcom needs to remake Dark Stalkers god dammit

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>>65350333
>Never play SO TL because it looks like a generic shooter
>Watch some video essay slop on the game somewhat recently becuase I am curious what it was about
>Turns out by not playing their game I am a 'hero'

>>65353024
We won, anon!

>>65350660
>Isn't it kinda fucked up how we get so much fun out of pretending to kill people?
Ball & Gun gamers catching strays here, but conflict is entertaining in general and the most direct forms of confrontation are either combat (armed or unarmed) or playing sports.
Wondering about the fun in killing inside videogames is like wondering about so many song lyrics being about love.
We've always glorified fighters and warriors in poetry, literature, film and now videogames. We've simulated the act of killing, but in ancient times we recounted the glory of killing your foes via word of mouth.
>How much time of the last 5 years have we spent watching people actually die for fun? That's kinda fucked up.
But there is nuance. The people who watch Ukrainian drone cams typically do not go looking for the Russian ones and vice versa. As much as one person likes to pretend to be unbiased and objective, you can suffer a "moral injury" watching your side get pelted by PG-7 warheads while cheering for the opponent getting his booty blasted.
The "fun" doesn't come from an inherent satisfaction in witnessing the extinction of life. It's just the feeling of justice being carried out. Of what you believe in coming out on top of a struggle.

>>65352236
Spec Ops The Line exists to criticize a genre that was spawned by a game that had already preemptively criticized its copycats.

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>>65350333
Beyond Citadel (the sequel to The Citadel) has some fun gun autism in it.
>tracks mags and partial mags
>double tapping the R key reloads faster at the cost of just dumping the mag on the ground
>mag cap + 1 in the chamber
>can chamber check
>multiple buttons (two I think? mag and charging IIRC) for different parts of the reload process
Also it's an anime guro doom clone about a girl in pussyfloss trying to reunite with her little brother so she can slamfuck him into the earth's core but the gunplay IS fun.

Level design leaves a bit to be desired imo but I enjoyed my time with it.

>>65352622
It's a completely playable game at the moment but it does need some tweaks. Mainly to the economy and the current two maps being a bit too small. Apparently we're getting another much larger map and a strategic lift plane after the next update which is supposed to be some sort of jump jet.

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>>65353302
>>multiple buttons (two I think? mag and charging IIRC) for different parts of the reload process
one to remove the magazine, one to insert a new one and another to charge the gun. pressing R without removing the magazine dumps the old on the ground and replaces it, making it much faster and easier to reload under stress.

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>>65351503
>Vidya gives you the feel of having *done* something. That is what they do, that is what makes them special.
>And when that sense is twisted, the wall doesn't just go up, it sparks anger.
On my blind playthrough of Spec Ops The Line I noticed that there were clearly civilians in the area so I purposefully aimed the mortars to the edge of the screen. The gameplay scripted the WP smoke to just spread away from the target area into the civilians huddled under the overpass.
Lack of coherence between input and the gameplay is a huge source of dissonance.
In the Far Cry 5 "Only You" sequences I noticed how obvious it was that the final mannequin was the militia leader and I was being psyopped into killing one of my allies. But those sequences force you to kill to prevent from being timed out. So when it came to the "real life" encounter in the militia bunker I aimed at the head and shot the guy. It was me. I was distracted. I was in a rush. I thought it was just another training sequence and the next time would be the real one and I'd be prepared. But no. I moved my mouse and clicked. I shot the fucking guy. It was coherent with the gameplay, the timed sequence forced me to be quick, and I pulled the trigger with no hesitation. No anger there. Fair play to the devs, that was EXCELLENT.
Spec Ops The Line draws anger in the same way that in a platformer you want to throw a controller through the screen when you need to make a jump and the game doesn't register the input so you plunge into your death. Yeah, you'll be raging when you want one thing and the game says "naaaahhhhh".

>>65353302
>double tapping the R key reloads faster at the cost of just dumping the mag on the ground
Amateur gamedev here; I'm stealing this.
Also on a related note, I've been wondering lately: are there any shooter games where you can cycle bolt/pump/etc action guns faster by spamming the fire button, in exchange for an accuracy penalty? It seems like such an obvious thing that I'd be amazed if nobody else had done this before.

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>>65353338
beyond citadel. you need to manually cycle lever actin and pump action guns, and the faster you do it the faster you can shoot.

>>65352823
may as well reccomend bulletgirls from psp

>>65350333
>le heckin white phosphorous cutscene, "war is le bad, omg you committed a war crime by playing this game!"
>very next level, your character is blasting a hundred guys in juggernaut suits with a full auto USAS-12
Spec Ops The Line didn't really work for me

>>65351505
you are not my nigger

>>65353338
darkwatch, of all games

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>>65351534
Liking firearms doesn't mean you like violence. If I have to defend myself with one so be it. Otherwise they are just mechanically and hustorically interesting hole punches to me.

>>65353442
historically*

>>65353302
Level design is good imo, environmental art just makes it clear its a solo dev game

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>>65350333
This game was incredibly schizophrenic in terms of whether to portray the 33rd as helping civilians, such as the interrogator dude killing them before the gate in front of Gould (who apparentlythinks Riggs plan is retarded and actually seems like he's interested in saving civvies), where it's later claimed that the 33rd were helping them. So does Mr. Interrogator just get to kill a few civilians once in awhile, as a treat?

>>65353302
>tracks mags and partial mags
There was a Rainbow Six game that did this, but I forget which one.

>>65352874
Blood Dragon still hasn't been topped by them. I had an actual, full-throated, bellowing laugh when the credits song from Miami Connection played.

Whole point of the game is critiquing the narrative of violence as heroism because you're one of the "good guys." Just basically telling you, the person with the keyboard, not to chimp out whenever someone feeds you a narrative which confirms what you already believe. And also pointing out that you can't kill your way to fixing a fuckup.

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>>65353195

I played through the entirety of Spec Ops in one giant 24 hour drug binge in 2014. Shit was amazingly immersive when you're loaded up on ketamine and 3-meo-pcp, very difficult to play though due to fine motor skills having gone out the window.

Being young and dumb with no responsibilities was fun.

>>65353796
>difficult to play though due to fine motor skills having gone out the window
No, they were just bad controls, and the shooting sucked

>>65353616
Oh wow, you mean the story tells me common sense as if it's a stunning revelation? Amazing!

>>65353596
Rainbow Six Vegas/Vegas 2 and Black Arrow did this on consoles.

>>65353338
>ima game dev

The problem I found with kb/m or gamepad controls is that neither represents actually holding your gun, aiming it, and firing it. Even VR lacks the proper force feedback / haptics of recoil.

>>65354005
What does that have to do with his post? Why even bother saying such an obvious and useless statement?

>>65354005
>muh realism
MGS3 simulated this fine enough for actual useable gameplay on ps2

>>65351485
>you can't Pound a ghost
>implying I'm not Scrappy

>>65350384
That this game continues to absolutely mindbreak anons to this day makes me kek
I can only assume it's autism, cognitive rigidity perhaps, but probably autism

>>65354081
It's a dumb game with bad execution

>>65354101
It's art
You wouldn't get it

>>65354110
>Mediocre cover shooter
>Art

>>65354115
It is art. Its also a case study in why videogames are one of the lowest forms of art, only beaten out by still life, minimalism and anime.

>>65350333
Remember playing it with my dad when it was a few months old and the both of us having a good laugh at how faggy they were over le hecking refugees getting WPed
>>65350913
>>65351816
Played it a year ago on PCSX2 because all the ISO versions crash halfway through Charlie's Point. The final tank mission was annoying as hell due to bugs but the hardest by far has to be Airmobile

>>65350333
Cool game. Bit pretentious. Wish it let me commit more war crimes.

>>65354345
I'd recommend MGSV. The shit you can do with a little imagination is wild.

>>65352332
Personally I love the original RE games and think they are way better than the newer games which pretend to be Resident evil, but aren't actually. Resident evil is supposed to be a slow and puzzle-filled survival horror experience, not a game where you quickly blast hordes of not-zombies while Leon spouts oneliners

Quasimorph is awesome, if you like roguelikes. Tons of weapon and enemy variety, cool classes, great soundtrack, and loads of options for difficulty.
Very satisfying tactical experience.
And it's got absolutely insane late game stuff with the demonic pacts and cybernetic/demon implants.

>>65350959
>There is no suggestion anywhere to stop playing or condemnation for not doing so which is what you claimed
Go to my post and point out where I explitly made that claim.

>>65354127
>anime
Shartynigger

>>65354986
>>65350918

>>65354115
I said you wouldn't get it, there's no need to prove it

>>65350913
Syphon Filter needs a reboot that is a mix of Tom Clancy and MGS, and then when you fuck up stealth it goes BF:BC2.

>>65356159
It's better than comic book movies.
It isn't art because it obviously strives so hard to be recognized as it.
Art is natural. So is love. Humor.
If you go out of your way to be it, you are not.

>>65356182
By that reasoning the Mona Lisa isn't art

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>>65354110
>It's art
>You wouldn't get it

>>65356185
And?
>Autist starts a self portrait, rich bitch asks for portrait, he complies and reuses canvas.
I think the subtle "fuck you" is art except peope fawned over it before science tells us the "truth" through advanced imagery.
Main thing is he u deestood people enough to subtly make a canvas that makes people like it. The background and smug or inscrutable smirk sets it apart and opens it to infinite interpretations.
Mona Lisa based on technicality as a painter is blah.
Yet here we are discussing it centuries later.

>>65356185
You realize that being able to survive by painting was an achievement in itself then?

>>65356197
>And?
And that means your argument is meritless

>>65356201
Why would that matter in the distinction of what is and isn't art?

>>65356202
You cannot elucidate any point of your argument.
I meanwhile do all the work and take both sides, in stride.
>Mona Lisa is trash
>But it appeals to people in the right way to be art.
Sit, down and clean the crumbs from your keyboard, child.

>>65356207
Did I say it did? But an artist that cannot kiss ass and then starves does not produce much art, do they?
Good paint was not cheap.
Look at Goya, Bosch and Dali and then recalculate.

>>65356212
Your argument that [thing] strives to be art is meritless because the effort involved in the creation of art has no bearing on whether something is or isn't art, child
>>65356215
There's simply no way you haven't heard of Van Gogh

>>65356217
If an artist or their work does not survive or exist
>TreeFalls
You want to half-assedly argue for some concept that art that has never been seen is superior, or that pieces that are almost unanimously appreciated for centuries are actually overrated trash?

Van Gogh begged for money, died in poverty by suicide.

>>65356217
>>65356230
Art is literally a social construct. Both of you are wrong, suck each other's assholes.

>>65356230
At what point have I ever suggested that art which hasn't been seen is superior? Or that pieces that are almost unanimously appreciated for centuries are trash?
I brought up the Mona Lisa as a counterpoint, an example of something that IS art

>>65356238
You are engaging in a social construct now.
That is why you expose yourself as a mental deficient, because you crave social interaction. You are merely too stupid to recognize how stupid you are.

>>65356244
Mea culpa. I may have inferred a point I imagined in your argument to justify an issue that bothers me.

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>>65356252
Reading back over this thread, I can see it, this is an esoteric argument even by 4chins standards

>>65356256
Every board is worst at it's primary topic, yet shines when it gets connected.

>>65356185
Sure, if you're disingenuous and steel man your own argument, you're deflecting because you were masterfully outclassed and proven wrong. Spec Ops the line is not and will never be art.

>>65356215
>>65356217
>>65356244
Vague posting bad faith disingenuous trash who keeps deflecting and moving the goal post, you must be the loneliest bitter loser.

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>>65350333
Guess I'm kinda late to this thread but I found a really neat game, some of you probably know about it:
>thought Ready or Not looked cool ever since it was announced
>finally watch some gameplay of it
>strikes me as run and gun BS far removed from actual SWAT activities
>look up better SWAT games, already know about SWAT 4 but it looks clunky and janky to me
>find out about the Elite Force mod
>totally overhauls the game
>graphics aside it pretty much plays like Ready or Not if that game was about actual cops and not Seal Team 6
I'm kinda excited bros, you should check out gameplay of it if you haven't already. Crazy that it's a free mod, and the game itself is only ten bucks.

>>65357184
For me, it's first responder

>>65357184
>>strikes me as run and gun BS far removed from actual SWAT activities
anon that's the whole point of a SWAT team, they're not run of the mill cops they're called in when it's a highly dangerous volatile situation.

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>15 year old game with unparalleled gunplay, realistic ballistics and the perfect realism balance between COD arcade-style FPS and Arma hiking sims
>80% of combat happens with bolt action rifles and grenades, only a few players get MGs or SMGs
>there are no reticles, you have to aim your gun using iron sights or scopes, you have to adjust your sights according to distance or else account for bullet drop
>no health bar or HP, the only things you can survive are glancing shots, shots taken to the arm or leg or low caliber rounds fired at a distance
>throws in fully modeled tanks that are more accurate than some tank simulators for free

>>65357605
>artillery is truely frightening
>if you are cought in a salvo get some really good cover and try to wait it out but you will probably die
>working surpressing mechanics
>the screams
>my god the screams are still in my head

RS1 was also great while RS2 didnt hit the mark for me. how is 83 doing?

>>65357455
I think his point is RoN is abstracted even from that, with your 4 man stack regularly facing platoon-sized elements with none of the support actual SWAT has, ie snipers or cordon security or aviation, or shit even just another stack. Domestic terrorists and cartels are one thing, but its gets goofy at points where mallcops at tech companies and luxury mansions are having shootouts to the death with armed police.

>>65357184
SWAT 4 has legit one of the most unintentional funniest gamemodes ever called VIP. SWAT team need to escort a player VIP to an extraction site. Terrorist team have to capture the VIP, hold him for a couple of minutes, then execute them. If the VIP is shot before those conditions are met then the team loses. SWAT team side naturally started using the VIP as a human shield which for a while got known as Trudeau tactics since if you kill your enemies they win.

>>65357341
pretty great mod too, just a few quibbles. impressive some of the stuff they managed to get working

>>65357634
Even SWAT 4 ran into that dissonance to a lesser degree with the later levels. Some of it is inherent to the premise (tension between gameplay escalation and the aesthetic & identity elements) but yeah RoN makes it much worse by having a bunch of corny half-baked scenarios.

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>>65357612
From what I've seen it's dead on arrival, there are zero online players or even bots in a PVP only game. RS2 Vietnam (and probably even RO2) has a more active userbase.

RS2 is good compared to most FPS games but not as great as RO2. Too many Chinks using aimbots and the nofoliage exploit to enjoy a full campaign round.

>>65357612t
83 playtest was godawful and outright shambolic. I have zero confidence in their ability to deliver as the game needs way more time to cook and it already has been in development hell forever. I hate to quote Bluedrake42 but he was spot on there are far too many games like this trying to attract a mythical audience in a very oversaturated market.

>>65351430
To God that is the same as actually murdering someone. Repent.

>>65351534
Violence is to be glorified, not jewishly subverted like everything else nice nowadays. Violence is the only way to deal with evil.

Need a power fantasy Vietnam game where you move down commies in the mountains and rice paddies in victory after victory and come home to a grateful nation with no demoralizing message whatsoever. Throw in a scene where you hardbully some dumb hippies and accurately portray them to be the vile hypocrite drug addicts they were/are.

>>65353596

The OG did it.

>>65357455
>>65357634
I think it's mostly a tuning/balance thing, this has been much discussed in the RON community. Like there's one mission where you clear a big house full of meth heads, okay fine, but probably 1/3-1/2 of them will try to kill you, can't be reasoned with, and have the aim and reaction time of a terminator. That's just dumb. SWAT seems to have fewer hostiles, who are more willing to surrender, and more vulnerable to the various non-lethal tools. It also has a sniper, which helps the believability. RON is simply never plausible, the gameplay only works as a counter-terror SEAL operation in Somalia or something.

>>65350384
It's almost impossible to discuss this game because there's always some retard who goes "hurrr why doesn't the game about a soldier who completely loses his mind and gets everyone around him killed let me do good things?"
It's not a fucking RPG that judges your morality or whatever, it's a 5 hours story throwing shade at military shooters from the early 2010's

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>>65357949
All of the following titles up to the modern era (Vegas, even that had +1 reloads in 2006)

>1998 OG R6
>modern sloppa still cannot hold the candle 20+ years later

grim

picrel, REAL oper8ors do not use front sights in CQB because point shooting instincts

>>65358525
>hurrr why doesn't the game about a soldier who completely loses his mind and gets everyone around him killed let me do good things
No one ever says that

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>>65358525
Missing the fucking point.
Either way SOTL has the most obnoxiously milquetoast message ever ("killing is... le bad") when it would take real courage to make a game where you would actually justify WP'ing the civilians.
"It's easy to hate the rich, but do you have the courage to hate the poor?" type shit.

>>65352848
fart cry 3's main flaw, IMO, is that the second island doesn't really elevate the gameplay any. You're just fighting the less interesting secondary antagonist.

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/arg/ here. this is my GOTY so far

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>innadesert
>/o/ pilled
>autistic as shit
>has a fucking AV javelin on hand at all times
I forgot how /k/ Panam was

are those body camera shooters any good or is it just a meme?

>>65358525
It's incredible how a story can just do heart of darkness but with sand and throw in cheeky little loading screen tips that could apply to either the player or the walker and gaymers just can't fucking deal with that utterly milquetoast challenge to the audience.
>do you feel like a hero yet?
>AAAIIIIIEEEEEEE THE GAME ISN'T SUCKING MY DICK THROUGHOUT IT'S ENTIRE RUNTIME IT'S SHIT IT'S SHIT IT'S SHIT AND I HATE IT! WHY WON'T IT LET ME MAKE THE CHOICES THAT MAKE THE STORY JUST NOT HAPPEN?

>>65359958
She sucks your dick in a tank

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>>65359964
>2026
>implying
Go back

>>65359970
I'm sorry the big bad game made you do a think but don't you worry baby boi it's all just make believe

>>65359977
I'm sorry your parents regret not using a rubber, but hey, at least you survived the abortion. I'm sure your brain is fine, that's why you're able to follow a conversation without disingenuously putting words in people's mouth and using insults that were stale in 2011.

>>65359964
Its not really about the game itself and hasn't been for a long time, its about the game being held up as a media darling. As you rightly point out, its a total nothingburger bargain bin title without those loading screen messages, so I think a lot of the frustration is with what a low bar for praise there is for videogames.

>dumb browbeating themes
>shitty brown and bloom cover shooter
it’s just not a good game but since 4chan loves to be contrarian as possible at all times they glaze this dogshit relentlessly

>>65353444
>Level design is good imo
C1 is mostly average maps with some meh ones while BC has some utterly dogshit maps but also some really good ones.

hopefully the third game is a best of both worlds.

>>65353388
peripetia is dogshit abandonware. yet another solo dev game with too much scope that gets like 50% made before the dev gets bored and slowly gives up. there is SO MUCH EMPTY SPACE in that game and its not for atmosphere, its because the dev is just bad at making levels. also the crpg aspects of it suck dick and the AI is about on par with cruelty squads (ie. no AI).

last major update was in april and all it did was let you keep gear between maps.

>>65351377
peripetiea was ok until it got co-opted by redditors and troons for absolutely no fucking reason. I'm not playing trans rights: the game.

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>>65350333
>Arma3 is a 14 year old gayme I've played to death
>Reforger is just a stop-gap beta for arma 4
>DayZ is full of russian hackers
>Tarkov is also full of russian hackers
>Insurgency sandstorm was fun then became slop
>SS later had all mods broken and only work on private servers
>Squad needs a good 2-3 hours and I'm an adult
>Don't get me started on CoD or BF
>Boomer shooters are too arcadey outside of cultic... which is still arcadey
>Citadel 1/2 feel samey on new games with shit-tier enemy AI
Are there any fun SP/Co-op shooters at this point?
Vros, I just want a game I can pop into and shoot off a pistol or a dmr so bad... I'm filling the gap with mechwarrior 5/clans but it's not the same as popping into RO2 back in the day.

>>65360214
Also:
>Stalker 2 is a 176gb install that takes a minute to fire up for pre-render and 20seconds to load anything then gets samey end-game
>Stalker gamma was fun for 10 minutes until I realize I have a life and a job and can't spend 4 days grinding up to a 416 just to get rayped by a chimera
>Metro games are SP focused but linear as all get-out
>Cyberpunk is too RPG heavy and has the borderland syndrome thing going on with the weapons
I did find one boomer shooter called cop bastard that's pistol-primary but the enemy AI is also shit like the citadel and it hasn't made it past demo.

>>65360214
>Boomer shooters are too arcadey
All the best tactical shooters are from the 00s you dumb nigger

>>65360286
There's no issue with older tac shooters but modern incarnations are all slow-paced early-access slop or cash grabs:
>Ready or not
Neutered so the studio could be acquired and published, cash grab DLCs
>Ground branch
Forever early-access with unreal store assets lazily thrown in and atrocious enemy AI
>Six gays in fallujah
Also forever early-access and will spring a memory leak after a single mission
I've heard good things about operator though.
Insurgency SS would probably be the high water mark in the past decade if I'm being completely honest.

>>65360322
>Ground branch
it's 1.0 now - but worse than ever AND 100 gigs. complete trash

>>65360324
I had fun when it went semi-stable in 2024 doing retard m1911/grenade runs pretending to be big boss but it got stale after that. If it had more options for solo runs as opposed to me having to nigger my friends away from tarkov it might be more fun but as it stands the EI all either sit and scratch their asses or every last one on the map bum rushes you the moment you fire a shot, even if it's suppressed.
>Over 100gb install
What? It was 32gb last week, that's insane.
Also I forgot to mention helldivers but I got bored after I hit lvl 150 doing bot D10s for a month.

>>65360214
Have you tried ghost recon breakpoint? You can turn off all the looser shooter shit and it's actually pretty fun, even with the syfy bullshit

>>65360322
Then just play old games, I guarantee there are hundreds of good ones you've never touched.

>>65356167
>Syphon Filter

I remember beating that last boss with VX gas grenades only because there was a CGI movie of the dude on the disc (we put the PSX CD in our PC to root around). Satisfying.

>>65360333
they quite literally just pushed a patch to bring it down in size to 32g

>>65360459
ah haven't been keeping up, good on em for that then, at least

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Don't mind me, just posting the best airframe that is second to none.

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>>65357184
>SWAT 4 mentioned
Here's the GOG installer. Add the SEF mod or one of its derivatives. Have fun.

https://archive.org/details/setup_swat4_gold_2.0.0.4

https://www.moddb.com/mods/swat-elite-force

>>65360322
Aside from the points you've raised I dislike quite a lot of modern slop because they manage to all feel the exact same especially when it comes to weapons. Now I don't exactly need Forgotten Weapons the game but can there are at least be something that tries to not be AR-15 simulator?

>>65357873
>To God that is the same as actually murdering someone.
Yes, in that God doesn't care about either.

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Anyone have any experience with Easy Red II? It is on sale right now and was tempted to pick it up along with the Pacific related campaigns.

>All of the Ready or Not talk
Yeah. It is fun at first, but I am at 627 hours right now with it. My biggest complaints I have are the instant reaction times of all the enemies, the failures to connect to hosts (like seriously I'll spend like 20 minutes finding a lobby), and since I have such a hard time finding people I have crossplay on and console players cannot see or read chat. Their most recent DLC is just ass. The missions are all hilariously over the top. The bank robbery mission could have been cool, but they fucked it up by having some super dooper evil guy actually being behind it and was meant to 'send a message' like a wannabe Joker or some shit. Also the city hall mission in that is fucking awful and that is all anyone wants to fucking play for some reason. STOP SHOOTING THE FINAL BOSS YOU DUMB FUCKS HE HAS A DEAD MANS SWITCH.

>>65360784
The mains in cultic are:
>c96
>mare's leg
>auto 5
>fg-42
>STEN mkV
>China lake
>one kick-ass sniping section with an SMLE
Go knock yourself out, just play on hard since it's a boomer shooter, it's also very spoopy.

Hell Let Loose: Vietnam is doing another playtest for anyone interested.
>>65361138
ER2 is aight. Pacific is good as is Normady and Stalingrad. For the current price and the content you get its worth.

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>>65361138
>1747616725119130m.jpg
>m
non-phoneposter edition

>>65360784
I have a similar nitpick where every game has to be US vs Soviet/derivatives so they all end up with the same vics and weaponry. Why can't we get something like the french vs South Africa? All that unique shit would make for a very interesting sandbox.

>>65352632
>step forward and bait out the first attack
>deliver two knife hits to the head for a stun
>kick to the ground and stab till dead
I think the knife was actually better in the OG since it was always ready to go.

>>65361595
>Why can't we get something like the french vs South Africa? All that unique shit would make for a very interesting sandbox.
because Americans make up the bulk of the media market; and even if they didn't, American weapons have been propping NATO up since about the 1960s, so European consoomers would also moan about not getting to use the American stuff

>Why can't we get something like the french vs South Africa? All that unique shit
mostly didn't work or wasn't pointed at each other. the variety comes from all the Europeans' different weapons (and Japan) and they're all NATO

Wargame has it right, you need to play NATO vs WP in order to get balanced capabilities, but you also need to exclude the best US weaponry
there's no getting around the USSR problem however because they make nearly all our enemies' weapons until very recently

>>65360521
Has nothing on beloved vortex. I do what to see how that BDG jump jet/trainer turns out since it's supposed to be the compass's counterpart

>>65360148
>>65360200
You that sane retard that's been seething about it for a year

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>nobody mentioned Receiver or Receiver 2
Fucking hell /k/

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>>65350384
Arma 2 had more of a profound impact on me when i was playing the armory and it went
>'YOUR NEXT JOB IS TO BLOW UP A BMP-2 (ambulance)
and i went
>"Woah! a BMP-2 ambulance! but that's a warcrime!"
and i genuinely sat down for a minute to contemplate the right thing before deciding the chedaki probably aren't following the LOAC so I sent an AT-4 right into the side of that sumbish and got me more armory points. splops goes
>"IF YOU DON'T KILL CIVILIANS YOU'RE A FAGGOTTT!!!!!"
then gets mad at you for not wanting to be called a faggot

I've been playing Big Ambitions which isn't /k/ related at all (it's an entrepreneur sim basically) but it really makes me want something that is.
I want a military industry sim complete with contract bidding and design teams. The closest I am aware of is Gear City which is a car manufacturer sim that lets you compete for government automobiles and part designs, up to naval and aircraft engines. No AFVs or weapons, though.

>>65362158
No one ever wants to talk about it.
Which is a shame because its a fantastic game.

Food for thought: if listening to the tapes in a digital format is bad, is it bad to listen to them in game?

>>65361595
>Why can't we get something like the french vs South Africa?
Because if the game sold a million copies it'd all be Ian.

>>65361138

Easy Red II is fun. Only played a couple matches since they can get kinda long in SP, but it's fun. The uniform and weapon/vehicle autism tickles my fancy as well.

>>65362297

He would walk into the publisher's offices asking if he could borrow some 7.65 French Long.

>>65360784
>I can't believe modern tactical shooters feature modern firearms
>>65361595
>Why are the armaments of two global superpowers who sold weapons to almost every country on the planet prominently featured in media

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>>65359964
>WHY WON'T IT LET ME MAKE THE CHOICES
The game hinges on choice.
The entire narrative is about Walker fucking up despite trying to do the right thing, and it climaxes with the player's avatar denying responsibility while Konrad retorts with a Kafka trap.
The game also has several choice presented, from the criminals hanging on the bridge to the angry mob, and even the execution animation that gives you extra ammo.
There's a huge dissonance between the game presenting itself as a reflection of the player's choices but the big narrative shift setpiece has to be railroaded because there was no alternative branching plot line. The game is structured to include choice and the narrative only works via choice, but it's not feasible to offer choice when it actually matters. Games with a static storyline have been the norm for decades, the issue isn't the lack of choice but how the player is chastised for a choice they didn't make.
A good parallel is the artwork Helena, where fish were put in blenders and anyone could turn them on. Two fish were killed before the installation had to be shut down and the museum director was the one charged with animal cruelty. Obviously if you press the button on a blender there's a reasonable expectation that it will start and kill the fish inside, but even then it was the person responsible for authorizing that installation that allowed the scenario to play out. You're not required to touch an art piece to progress inside the museum, but in Spec Ops The Line you have to start the blender or else you can't finish the game.
Walker's actions have to be the player's actions and the story serves as an allegory for uncritically playing the hero role in war games, without player choice it becomes a linear storyline and it loses the metacommentary about the genre. It has to break the fourth wall. If these conditions aren't met it's simply an unreliable narrator story with a M. Night Shyamalan twist.

>>65362488
>can't even see the fish you get to blend
art is dead

>>65362317
How it a Ouigga gonna borrow 7.65 French Long? Is he gonna give it back?

>>65362158
>>65362183
Would've been cool if it was about shooting zombies or something, instead it's got some dumb story nobody cares about involving shooting gay little robots. Wasted opportunity.

>>65362488
>but the big narrative shift setpiece has to be railroaded because there was no alternative branching plot line
Yes, it kinda does. That's just how stories work. The game lets you choose how walker responds to events, generally with the options of bad and worse, but none of them change it into an entirely different story. The whole thing it's going for is the increasing amount of unhinged violence as part of that metacommentary you're saying doesn't count and either that scene or something similar to it kicks off walker's wild ride or the plot just doesn't happen. You would either need to write a whole other campaign where it just becomes the basic good guys save the day military shooter that the story was written to mock or find some far less compelling reason to contrive everything back on track.
but actually no seriously
>without player choice it becomes a linear storyline and it loses the metacommentary about the genre
how does a linear storyline not work as a satire of a genre of linear storylines? You had to explode the white blobs to get to the next level in call of duty 4 as well, but since this game does the same fucking thing and goes "yeah isn't that stuff kinda a bit fucked if you think about it?" with a wink to the player it's suddenly not making a commentary on it?

I don't mind it if people don't like a story I like but it's really boring when people just keep finding different ways of saying the story shouldn't have happened if you think about it logically.

>>65360214
theres the hunt showdown, if you want to cowboy max

>>65356106
Again, point out where in the post I explicitly said that "There is no suggestion anywhere to stop playing or condemnation for not doing so."

You continue to misconstrue my point about both games using the same narrative tool while admonishing only one of them for it.

>>65362760
>zombies
It would have been absolute crap, the drones are an excellent choice and they fit extremely well within the theme. The tapes are just a mcguffin to keep one going, they do the job. Receiver 2 expands on it fairly well too, but again it's just set dressing. Besides, Receiver is as gun porn as a game can get: if you absolutely need a human shape as a target it's clear you're interested more in the killing and less in the guns themselves. To each his own I guess, but there's plenty of games where you can shoot at people, while Receiver is basically unique.

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>>65350333
the same people who praise spec ops the line praise christopher nolan movies

>>65364058
Brigador did it better because it never forced you to pull the trigger. It just gave you the chemical weapons and the refugee camp and trusted the scenario to play out naturally.