EUMET, the engine for the FCAS, and a pillar of collaboration kept after the failure of FCAS is under threat. This is because of the vastly different requirements for the French and German planes, meaning Safran would need to develop two different engines which it doesn't have the resources to do.https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/mtu-warns-diverging-fighter-requirements-could-threaten-safran-partnership-2026-07-30/https://aviationweek.com/defense/aircraft-propulsion/mtu-safran-fcas-engine-partnership-poised-witherWhat does Germany do?
>>65382362>What does Germany do?wisest move imo would be to join GCAP as a junior member.
>>65382362>The French version has a significantly smaller aircraft designed to land on aircraft carriersNot having a carrier capable aircraft makes it that you have less and also less potential buyers and thus benefit less from economies of scale. In this case the germans probably were the unreliable ones
>>65382362Idealy the Italian+English+japan project would have been non-carrierand the French+German+Spanish one would have been carrier capable sadly the Germans and Fench are to spastick to make that work
>>65382362Isn't FCAS dead?
>>65382443nothing about unreliable, just different requirements. Germany needs a bigger and more powerful and heavier engine.>>65382450Germany doesn't have or want a carrier so that would be stupid>>65382451yes but EUMET (the joint engine project) isn't yet, officially not, at least. De facto it's probably dead too.
>>65382366Then they'd get no industrial participation, but I would say: please tempest, may I purchase your engine. But then MTU is still kind of fucked and your plane is reliant on imported British/Japanese/Italian engines.>>65382451Yes, but the engine project EUMET was still in the works. So now there is no engine for Team 6th Gen.
>>65382451FCAS and MGCS both died. All german - french joint projects are pretty much dead now.
>>65382490>MGCSIt is finally officially dead?
>>65382493Yes.
>>65382476switzerland operates a carrier plane even though its entirely land locked. why cant the germans operate a carrier plane?
>>65382476carrier planes also have the advantage of being able to launch from shorter runways like the Italian F35 B's did from one of the Finnish highwaysthat would be a usefull feature if the russians try to crater your runways or you have to use captured or otherwise degraded airbases.that being said if there was co-ordination between the programs the Germans could have still bought non-carrier capable and sold carrier capable
>>65382362It was almost completely impossible for this project to have ever had a a satisfactory outcome. It was pure folly to even attempt the collaboration in the first place.Its time for Germany to bite the bullet and sign up for GCAP as it is the only platform it has access to that matches it requirements. Its too late get on bored with development but if they signed up now they could get manufacturing concessions and weapons integration at a lower cost.
>>65382511Why would they? They bankroll the project - there's no need to accept an inferior, significantly limiting and operationally unfit plane. If it's just about having one or not they can always buy GCAP or American. There's virtually no reason to comply with the french especially not if germany gets a bad workshare and no technology out of it.
>>65382443>not having carrier capable aircraft reduces potential buyersYeah because there's so many countries that operate carriers and lack a source of aircraft for them.>>65382540>working with the frenchThere's half a century of failed X-French joint projects and every single one of them failing can be pinned squarely on France's hubris.
>>65382530Damn that's big
>>65382362The simple fact is the germs dont have to compromise with anyone on defense at all now. Their defense budget is fucking enormous, their industry needs stimulating and their debt to gdp ratio is the healthiest of any major economy in the world - plus they have f35 so theyre in no hurry to modernise their airforce.The only thing they're missing for a 6th gen is a local engine manufacurer but they can buy Rolls/Safran/GE/IHI while they buid up local capability.The self important morons at dassault tried to take fcas hostage to get the germs (and spanish) to be their paypigs. They have now been left completely in the lurch after their bluff got called. France is fucking bankrupt, theyre gonna be flying rafail 4.5.5+++ gen shitbuckets for the next 30 years.What happens now is the germs are gonna go to safran and say "this is the engine we want, make it or we go somewhere else" and the french are either gonna have to suck it up so they at least have a 6th gen engine (even if its not the engine they wanted) or they get to fall even further behind in aerospace.>whatabout spainWho the fuck knows, the spanish president is a traitor too busy destroying his country to worry about jet planes>t. spaniard
>>65382592>What happens now is the germs are gonna go to safran and say "this is the engine we want, make it or we go somewhere else"Safran is not going to scrap an engine for the French plane to make one for the German one. And they don't have the industrial capacity to make two at the same time. The planes will be very different in size and they won't be able to share them. France has all the power in this contest, Germany can't strong arm them.
>>65382511Switzerland is a small country surrounded by friendlies. Germany might actually need its air force in the future. Why compromise for nothing in return?>>65382523carrier fighters have no relevant upsides compared to all the downsides if you operate them from land>>65382530this.>>65382592Germany could probably do a 6th gen if it got help for the engine, however that would take an eternity, and time is more pressing than money right now.
>>65382611They're ALREADY trying to do 2 at the same time.M88-TREX + AMCA + EUMETthat's two new engines + upgrading a 40 year old engine.Adding a 3rd would be impossible.
>>65382587Yeh that's kind of the point of gen6. Airforce planers are increasing worried about the vulnerability of tankers and AWACS to very long range missiles. 100km+ missiles are already commonplace and 200 to 300 km missiles are currently under development. 6th gen combat aircraft need massive range, huge all aspect detection, 2MW+ of available power and good cruise speed.FACS could not have that and be carrier based at the same time. It was doomed form the start.
>>65382611>France has all the power in this contest, Germany can't strong arm them.No they don't. Germany can always just go be a GCAP or US customer. France needs german money to modernize two critical components not just their aging Rafale but also the aging Leclerc.Losing a sugar daddy taking 50% off the R&D is devastating.
>>65382629As i understand a lot of TREX technology was to be used in EUMET, so it isn't massively separated. Then AMCA's engine will not require the same level of development as a 6th gens engine. So what I meant was that it could not develop two parallel 6ht gen engines without enlarging the company, and I don't think Germany would want to fund an expansion of Safran.>>65382633>No they don't. Germany can always just go be a GCAP or US customer.Ok, but Safran still gets the SCAF and they still win. For France, to continue with the EUMET, Safran will need a huge amount of German money to create the industrial capabilities to develop and then produce the engine's core. France can't afford to continue with EUMET unless Germany pays them to stay.
>>65382673France is alone and bankrupt. Nobody is gonna pay them and they will struggle with a 6th gen on their own.
>Germany can't make jet engines.How far the Fatherland has fallen.
>>65382633>GCAP or US customerthat GCAP and FCAP are a thing should tell you that just buying american is out of the questionif buying american was an option than the Spanish, Italians, Bongs, Germans and Japanese wouldn't have spent all that money making their own but simply asked for production liscenses/workshare, like they did with the F35buying GCAP can be an option, but they will never be invited into the project proper due to the time table that Japan is insisting onso they's end up buying a finished product they get no say on and will probably not even get a crumb of workshare out of the deal
>>65382690France isn't bankrupt, they are just putting a large amount into other things.
>>65382673>As i understand a lot of TREX technology was to be used in EUMETYes, because EUMET was just a way for france to funnel german money into paying for the M88-TREX upgrade for the Rafale F5.It was never REALLY about a 6th gen engine (though that would be nice too if the program stayed alive long enough, it was a pie in the sky goal, not a realistic vision).
>>65382697how hard can it be? its 80 year old tech.
>>65382741Idk, ask china.
>>65382493>>65382494Bwahahaha"MGCS is now... the joint European Combat Cloud."W-we can just build MGCS in Minecraft, guys!Surely French and Germans can agree on software requirements?France doesn't need their Combat Minecraft to be carrier-capable, right?... right?https://www.defensemagazine.com/article/end-of-an-era-paris-and-berlin-scale-back-mgcs-to-digital-combat-cloud-echoing-fcas-collapse
>>65382592Your punishment for criticizing the Spanish central government in this way is to accept another 60,000 Moroccan men.
People have suggested purchasing the GCAP engine, and it seems most sensible, but there's a problem with this. It means MTU would have no workshare in their own 6th gen fighter. Nor could they basically just buy the hotsection and do the rest. If you were to partner with another nation to build a new engine and give MTU a greater workshare, you will be funding another company to develop a 6th gen engine core. Which would just be giving money away to develop someone else's capabilities at a massive cost. I don't see a way Germany/MTU doesn't get fucked.
>>65382916Don't worry, RR/MHI/AA aren't going to sell it to you anyway, so really a moot point.
>>65382921I don't know, I think they might. With a markup, as is usual it would make them a lot of money and make 6th Gen's project uncompetitive. Also it is IHI, not MHI, for Japan's engine workshare.
>>65382926Lol no, there is no shot.The IP is far too valuable for export OUTSIDE of the airframe.The US exports the F-35, but have they ever allowed someone to buy the F135 engine? Nope.
>collaborate with france/germany>project falls apart immediately >collaborate with Italy>it just werksHow come we didn't give the wops a chance earlier?
This will go nowhere and we will just buy GCAP or more F35, depending on how american politics go after trump.The only question is, how much more money will be wasted (on top of the money already wasted on FCAS) until the political class accepts it.
>>65382934Same issue with Germany/Spain as Germany/Italy, they don't touch some key areas.
A Spanish defence website suggests>Germany and Spain sharing the engine of the competing program, the GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme), led by the United Kingdom, Italy, and Japan.https://www.escudodigital.com/en/defense/europe/europe-lost-fcas-but-not-the-engine-for-the-future-the-alliance-reshaping-sixth-generation-air-power.html
>>65382949Personally I think the issue is always France
>>65382947>until the political class accepts it.you mean until the lobbying money runs out.
I HATE the current homogenization of fighter jets.Everything is starting to look the exact same.
>>65383133F-47 is going to be the unique outlier.
>>65382985The issue is there's no one experienced in the hot section of the engine and have no experience in end to end plane construction.
>>65383187France themselves aren't in a great place with that either, they've mostly ignored military engine core development for decades, just doing basic bitch M88 updates and barely putting any money into a serious replacement core. No one currently working at Safran on the program was there when the M88 was designed, and they have zero firsthand experience designing a new military engine hot section. They've got the institutional experience, which will help bridge the gap, but it's hardly a simple process or even something that's guaranteed to happen just because they could do the M88 back in the day.
>>65382362>What does Germany do?Come out with a 7th generation fighter.
>>65383392France's position is so far away from Germany's that the situation it is non-comparable.
>>65383665Sure, but the media fantasy that france is 10-15 years away from a 6th gen engine is just moronic.France is 5-8 years from M88 TREX, they're at LEAST another 15-25 years beyond that before they can field a 6th gen engine, and that assumes they can afford that long of a development cycle.The US spent 30 years on the F-35 engine, they've spent a similar amount of time on the foundational R&D for the F-47 engines, and japan spent a similar amount of time on the IHI XF9-1 engine.France is selling a timeline that is impossible.
>>65382362Okay, this might be retarded but hear me out. How about MTU/Germany buys up or Joint Venture's Ivchenko progress? They are definitely way behind on the technology. But the Al-322f has a similar weight/thrust ratio as the ej200 even though it is meant to be used as a high reliability engine. Maybe with enough money and 10 years they could cook something up.Would be funny as fuck and probably the cheapest way for Gernany to get their hands on hot parts expertise and a foundry.
>>65383710>The US spent 30 years on the F-35 engine, they've spent a similar amount of time on the foundational R&D for the F-47 engines, and japan spent a similar amount of time on the IHI XF9-1 engine.Work was started in 2010, that wasn't 30 years ago, and they aren't the engine lead for GCAP. They are working on the same role as Germany was in EUMET. UK is doing France's workshare, Japan is doing Germany's, and Italy is doing Spain's.
>>65383801Anon, i'm talking about the foundational R&D, which started in the 1990s with the XF5. the XF9 was taking that baseline and scaling it up.
>>65383874Many engines can claim that, including France with the M88.
>>65383886...yeah anon that's my fucking point.You can't build a 6th gen engine off the M88.They don't have a NEW M88 to build from, that's why they're fucked and their fantasy timeline is a fucking joke.The m88 is at the end of it's development life, they're hitting the limits and even with new materials (CMCs/metallurgy) they're fundamentally limited by the core diameter and gas physics in that specific layout.M88 TREX is the limit. Beyond that they're going to take the CMC/metallurgy knowledge they learn from the M88 TREX program and apply that to a WHOLE NEW core design, but THAT core design doesn't exist yet, and will take 2 decades to build and validate before it can enter service. That puts a realistic timeline for a french 6th gen engine in the very late 2040s at best, and that assumes almost no R&D delays, budget issues, or manufacturing/scaling stumbles.
>>65383786I doubt ukraine is focused on developing that jet fighter engine at the moment
>>65382362Do Euros even need a 6th gen aircraft? Even 5th gen is overkill for their limited capabilities, warfighting spirit, and likely enemy roster.
>>65383924Eh, they are only making engines for the flamingo right now and are still developing and supplying turkey for their roach drone. So I don't think they will say no to Moneybags-Germany
>>65383918>...yeah anon that's my fucking point.But it isn't, you are being purposefully dense by confounding the point because you know you misspoke. The XF9 wasn't being developed for 30 years.
>>65383959They'll certainly welcome any money but probably doesn't have the time to r&d advance jet engines for 5 and up gens, the germans would have better luck with the roaches or gooks
>>65383977Lmao no, I didn't misspeak at all, go fuck yourself you always look for these minor GOTCHAs when they're not even what you think they are.I didn't misspeak; I just attributed the R&D to the larger XF5/XF9 development pipeline.
>>65383979Gooks and Roaches have nothing. They are still struggling with the material science. IP is a proper proven manufacturer. With infrastructure and processes in placeNot sure what IP is preoccupied with? Their RnD staff is probably not preoccupied since they even have time to do joint research with pooland: https://oboronka.mezha.ua/en/ivchenko-progres-spivpracyuvatime-z-pzl-defence-312696/
>>65382366>>65382484The Germans should be offered the UK's seat at the table.
>>65384022The UK is mostly there to serve as a geopolitical shield from china for japan.Germany doesn't hold the same weight in that respect, regardless of the money or industry they might bring.
>>65384010You article states its for smaller turbojet engines and drone shit. Fighter jet engines for 5 gens+ are a whole different realm that would take a significant amount of time and resources to invest into, something the germans should take account for. Its better for them to join existing programs like the aforementioned roaches and gooks since theyre already heavily invested in, maybe joining in gcap even
>>65384030Gooks and Roaches can offer nothing. Why do you think two countries with 0 expertise in jet engines are better at 5th gen engines than a manufacturer with proven monocrystal technology (pic related) and competitive thrust to weight ratio low bypass turbofans?
>>65384095Both have monocrystal technology, have jet fighter manufacturers, and have active 5th gen jet programs that have flying prototypes, unlike the ukie company. I don't know why you're so upset that germany would be in a better position working with either based on those factors alone rather than start a whole new project. Hell, that ukie company is even working with the roaches for their 5th gen.
>>65384147Germany needs nothing of what roaches or gooks can offer. They don't need a system integrator, avionics, radar, ew-suit, stealth or airframe. They have more experience with designing, manufacturing and running jets than either. Joining a far gone ~4.5th gen jet like KAAN or KF21 is completely at odds of what they want achieve especially since they are already using the f35 and eurofighter. Both jets that are more capable of what the koreans and turks can cook up. Even if those jets were superior to what Germany is using, what is the angle for Germany here? Wrangle in on a 50% done, dead-end 4.5th fighter jet project? What's the point if they might as well buy a 6th gen with GCAP?Germany only needs the hot part of an engine nothing more and nothing less.
>>65384186They have no real data on modern stealth airframe flight control laws, it would take years of testing/development to get to where france/UK/SK are at in the same regard.
>>65382362just buy the F-22 export version, ya dumb Krauts.https://youtube.com/watch?v=ce9H5xCSH8w
>>65383959>Moneybags-GermanyMoneybags Germany was in the 1980s. Now they are just former rich who has fallen on harder and harder times. That applies to all of Europe btw.
>>65382530>>65382587is it really that big?
>>65384216>obslete balloon buster that loses to F-35s and pilots all claim they would rather have a better radar and fuel than TV
What could have been
>>65385145Yes, F-111 sized.
>>65385337Looks ugly as fuck but it is a shame the US killed it.
>>65385337>>65385484there apparently was a further study that wasn't quite as ugly
>>65385495Saved.
>>65385359so it's a bomber like the B-2? what is the criteria between bomber and fighter?
>>65385495Nice
>>65385145>You're a big guy...
>>65385596UUUU
>>65385337>>65385495>>65384191>They have no real data on modern stealth airframe flight control laws, it would take years of testing/development to get to where france/UK/SK are at in the same regard.None of these countries have prior to their stealth projects. Except maybe UK's involvement in the f35. Airbus with its LOUT program has poured significant resources into geometric and material stealth as well. I don't see how this is a barrier that cannot be overcome. Besides what is your point an appeal to futility? Because you join late to a party you shouldn't try to catch up? If this held true SK or any country should've never even started developing a fighter to begin with.
>>65385794politicians wanting to spend money on domestic products doesn't mean its a good idea
>>65385836Thank you, Mr. LocksneedShartInMartin. Where do I sign?
>>65385794Anon, SK is realistic about their timeline, they're not even thinking about a new engine that matches the F414 until ~2040.And an engine that's better than that would be the 2050s or 60s at the earliest.SK just knows it takes decades to get where they want to be and there is no better time to start than yesterday.Germany on the other hand DOESN'T think it'll take that long, doesn't plan for it to take that long, isn't budgeting for it to take that long, but is starting from a similar position and think things will just work out if they try hard.Sorry, but they're not comparable situations.
>>65386054Do you have any timelines on the post FCAS German gen6 project? From what I know they don't even have a published way forward with the engine conundrum let alone a timeline for the overall jet.For all we know German army will use the Eurofighter for 2060 and beyond in various tranches as well as the f35 as a CCA coop testbed. So if the German gen6 takes until 2050 - so be it. Germany is in no rush. Certainly the Russian airforce is not a thread in the near future.
>>65386245> From what I know they don't even have a published way forward with the engine conundrum let alone a timeline for the overall jetI mean, they haven't published a way forward because they physically can't right now.They are currently coasting on the ghost of the old 2045 FCAS timeline, allowing politicians and the defense press to assume the newly formed Team Gen 6 is targeting the same date. But the industrial reality is; with the collapse of FCAS and Safran officially pulling the plug on joint engine funding, EUMET is dead. Team Gen 6 knows that without Safran's hot-section IP, they do not have an engine pathway, let alone a 2045 timeline. They can't make a public promise because it's technically impossible to fulfill right now.> So if the German gen6 takes until 2050 - so be it. Germany is in no rush. Saying Germany is in no rush completely misreads how military procurement budgets and industrial retention work.The German government has absolutely not budgeted, planned, or prepared for a 25- to 30-year sovereign engine development cycle. If the German political apparatus realizes Team Gen 6 can't deliver an airframe until 2050 or 2060, they won't just patiently wait and fund a domestic engine project for three decades, they will panic and buy American or try to beg their way into the UK/Italy/Japan GCAP program.At the moment, the German/Spanish industry is just using early R&D money as keep-the-lights-on funding to avoid laying off their top engineers. If you let politicians believe 2045 is still alive without putting it in a legally binding contract, the aerospace primes get to collect research checks while praying a miracle solution appears before the budget committee realizes there's no actual engine engine under the hood.Meanwhile, South Korea is actually building, testing, and scaling physical hardware on a locked-in, funded 20-year national roadmap. One is a strategy; the other is a corporate survival mechanism.
>>65386300>>65386245I’ll go a step further on a purely speculative note: I heavily suspect Airbus is pushing the Team Gen 6 narrative so aggressively right now because of the underlying French state influence in its corporate DNA. (10.8% owned by France, 10.8% owned by Germany)Think about it; if the German wing of Airbus were acting completely independently, the pragmatic move would be to approach the UK, Italy, and Japan (GCAP) with a clean, low-baggage offer. Germany has excellent pedigree in uncrewed stealth loyal wingmen (like their LOUT testbed) and network topology. They could easily say: > You guys build the core jet by 2035; we will dominate the European drone and combat cloud market for you. It’s a massive industrial win-win.Instead, we see reports of Germany reportedly wanting absurd levels of airframe authority that GCAP will never grant. To me, this looks like the French establishment punishing Berlin for blowing up the original FCAS partnership. By forcing a toxic airframe demand through the corporate structure of Airbus, they effectively ensure the GCAP nations slam the door in Germany's face.It feels like a deliberate strategy to isolate Germany from alternative alliances, letting their domestic aerospace sector starve until Berlin is forced to crawl back to Paris on French terms.
>>65383133Dude, you can't fight physics. Convergent evolution is a thing.
>>65382362Where MGCS
>>65387835Canceled. It's gonna be funny to see how france deals with its underperforming and aging Leclercs and not even a single prototype to back it up.
>>65387835oh look it's the obsessed Polish faggotwhere any Polish self made weapon system? even the pride of your MIC Borsuk is made entirely of foreign parts>>65387847a tank isn't that complicatedFrance will manage it, but it will be built in placebo numbers while the rest of Europe will pivot towards the Leo 2 successor
>>65385794France and Germany have more experience with fifth gens than the GCAP partners (UK, Italy and Japan), where none of the companies involved (BAE, Leonardo or Mitsubishi) have any experience as part of the original JSF design program or assembling F-35s locally
>>65387885You really just enjoy being retarded huh?
>>65386325Germans will love this narrative but the military arm of Airbus is mostly German. You have to own up to your own toxicity but Germans are still in that phase of blaming everyone else and pretending that whatever France can do they can do better.>isolate Germany from alternative alliancesThere are no alternative alliances. France offered them the best deal anyone would offer them and they blew it up. You talk about joining GCAP but the outcome for their domestic industry would be worse than under FCAS. They might as well buy more F35's at that point. It'll be funny seeing their hubris as they realize they can't scale the wall they've cornered themselves into.
>>65387938>You talk about joining GCAP but the outcome for their domestic industry would be worse than under FCAS.at a much lower cost and with a much better fighter in the end though
>>65386325> You guys build the core jet by 2035; we will dominate the European drone and combat cloud market for youbut that's the deal they had with france that wasn't good enough
>>65387938>They might as well buy more F35's at that point.and this is going to happen anyway>>65387947no, Germany wouldn't pay 50% of GCAP and only get a shitty French made gimped carrier plane in return
>>65387946You're completely ignoring the fact that Germany is desperate to save its own jet fighter industry from obsolescence. They don't want to be reduced to a customer.
>>65387950They'd get some workshare. Now they get none. Good luck building your own jet ever again.
They'll buy NGAD because eurotrannies can't make good hardware to start with, stick to attaching bottlecaps to bottles or pushing dystopian Internet surveillance laws
>>65387953>>65387955if industry is the primary concern Germany should just do its own jet fighter. Yes it will take decades but then the skill will be there. Buy F-35 and maybe GCAP in the meanwhile.
>>65388032>procure and support 2 completely different cutting edge platforms while developing an even more cutting edge design indigenously>at the same timeNice fantasy, who's gonna pay for it?
>>65387938Why are you pretending the military arm of airbus had total free reign from any overarching French ownership/influence?That's a fantasy and I assume you know that, so what's your angle here?Nothing you said proves France ISN'T using their internal leverage to force Germany into a shit deal for fucking up FCAS.From my American/British perspective, France is poisoning the well for GCAP from inside airbus. Trying to claim German airbus with 0% French influence would make the same deal with GCAP is I think totally unfounded.
>>65387947Well yeah, when you're paying $30-50B you want more than just the drones and AIWhen you're paying $5-10B bringing just the drones and AI is fine.
>>65388032This
>>65388351>>65388032With what engine?That's a 20-40 year project.
>>65382530>if they signed up now they could get manufacturing concessionsAbsolutely not. GCAP's hard 2030 deadline means that there is zero flexibility on work share. Japan will totally refuse to even entertain the idea, like they did when the Saudis made some moves to join. With GCAP, Germany can buy an end product at market rates or nothing.>>65388303I don't know why people are so obsessed with adjucating blame. The program was stupid from the start and everyone knew that. The French wanted a smaller carrier plane and the Germans wanted a big land based plane. Both countries are equally at fault for starting a joint project while knowing they had totally incompatible requirements. The work-share squabbling is just propaganda aimed at domestic audiences to cover for the incompetence of having even begun the program in the first place. The real problem is that the EU isn't actually a union. It's more than an IGO, but it's not a thing independent of member states. It's closest to a confederation, which history has shown is the stupidest form of government. If the Europeans want to stay relevant, they need to federalize and the federal military would actually have the power to force the herd of cats into successful, continental programs. Without that, European militaries and programs will always be less than the sum of their parts due to the crabs in a bucket squabbles. Either spin together or fall apart into a trade bloc. That'd why NATO works and the CSDP doesn't is because the US is able to act as the 800 pound gorilla that arbitrates disputes and bullies everyone else into line. The EU doesn't have that.>>65388032They don't have the money. 6th gen fighters are beyond the scope of what middle powers can pull off. If Germany and Spain stick together, they more ght be able to pull in Sweden to balance tech/manufacturing and then the Saudis for money. It would still be a budget stretch.
>>65388426You’re right about the structural tragedy of European defense, but the macro-political failure is why the corporate poisoning I mentioned works so effectively.The underlying requirements were always fundamentally incompatible. France needed a medium-weight, carrier-capable jet to replace the Rafale-M, while Germany wanted a heavy, long-range, twin-engine interceptor to replace the Eurofighter. They tried to smash those two opposing concepts together anyway because European politicians wanted the performative PR win of a united Europe project.Because there is no '800-pound gorilla' in the EU to force a compromise, the vacuum was filled by corporate and national self-interest. The moment the airframe requirement tension started cracking the project, the French state and Toulouse factions within Airbus were able to weaponize those toxic workshare demands. They knew the structural fault lines were already there, so they used the corporate levers to corner Berlin. The program was absolutely a crabs-in-a-bucket situation from day one.And this brings the whole conversation back to the original comparison with South Korea. >>65386054Why is South Korea’s 20-year timeline for a sovereign engine realistic while Europe's is a mess? Because South Korea is a single, unified nation-state that doesn't have to navigate confederated political dysfunction. They don't have to build an engine that simultaneously satisfies a blue-water navy and a land-based air force. They don't have to split high-pressure turbine IP across borders to appease voter bases in two different capitals.The European primes are trapped in a performative loop, taking R&D cash to keep the lights on while chasing an unachievable 2045 mirage because the EU lacks the federal authority to stop the madness. South Korea just has a unified plan, a single checkbook, and the national discipline to execute it.
>>65388330>When you're paying $5-10B bringing just the drones and AI is fineIt wasn't about the money. They could've always downgraded themselves to customer.
>>65388961Yea, and then they're a customer for a jet they still have no doctrinal need for, since they don't operate a carrier.What exactly is your point here?Also, what fucking fantasy world are you living in where France let's germany keep the AI/Loyal wingman pillars of FCAS, WITHOUT providing the $30-50B funding?There is zero chance france would've let that happen.
With Italians you... Win?
Are the Germans and French just impossible to work with? 1. FCAS: France and Germany. Spain was not the issue.2. MEADS: USA was the problem. Germany and Italy were fine.3. Typhoon: France and Germany were the problems. UK, Italy and Spain were fine. 4. Tiger: Both France and Germany fought constantly5. Atlas: UK and Germany were the problems. 6. Boxer: Everyone seemed like a problem. UK, Netherlands, and Germany7. MBT-70: Germany seems like the biggest culprit.IDK, seems like if you want to build a weapon system you need to steer clear of France and Germany. I have a hard time blaming the UK for Boxer because it seems like a repeat of MBT-70 where Germany was just wasting everyone's time and money trying to fund technology development rather and actually build something on a timeline.
>>65388426>The French wanted a smaller carrier plane and the Germans wanted a big land based plane.Compete folly, doomed project before it even started. I would bet dollars to donuts that either side didn't even bother to consult their aviation force commanders before the decision was made politically. I can only imagine the look on their faces when they found out.
Isn't it kind of a waste of time to even develop a 6th gen fighter in the first place when 4th gen fighters can handle Russia just fine?
>>65388435>>65388426its also that like half of europe does literally nothing to contribute to such programmes because they are either already in the f35 programme or they are "neutrality" freeloaders like ireland, austria, switzerland, serbia or too tiny like slovenia or too poor like bosnia, so the burden always sits with the big 4 that have to carry the entire continent basically.
>>65382362>What does Germany do?Bring in the Israelis since they now want their “own” stealth fighter within 10 years and have a confluence of interests at the moment:>both are in the market for 6th gen fighters>both want as few American strings attached to said fighters as possible>both already sell each other strategically important armaments (Dolphin-class subs from Germany, Arrow 3s from Israel)>both have an interest in fucking over the French defense industry out of a combination of strategic interests and spiteAdditionally, the German ruling classes have enough Holocaust guilt for the tie-up to conceivably happen long enough for production lines to be built, and the Israelis both would be more likely to accept FCAS’ specs as-is as long as they had free reign to make FCAS-Is to fit their own needs.
>>65389508With what engine?The idea that germany can just wake up tomorrow and "decide" they want to build a 6th gen fighter engine and that's just going to happen because they're germany is moronic.
>>65389508>50 IQ online dimwits still haven't realized we weaponized the hollywoodhoax propaganda and turned it to our profitkek
>>65389519>the nation that invented the jet fighter and is building jet engines for 100 years now can't develop a new jetkek, this cope never gets old. HRM Valkyrie, stay mad
>>65390018Lmao, you have zero understanding of the technological roadblocks to making a modern 5th/6th gen engine.It took china 3 decades and they're still having scaling/reliability problems.But sure, keep believing the lies, what's the worst that can happen? Germany wastes 2 decades, billions of euros, and end up buying GCAP anyway. Or even more hilariously, go crawling back to france.
>>65390023Its hilarious how delusional copeseething anti-german 50 IQ shills are and how clueless about the german military industrial, aviation and start up complex kek
>>65392379...so what's your proof germany can do it?they made a jet engine 70 years ago so OBVIOUSLY it's the same shit now right?You're a joke, you can't even give me a rough run down of how germany even COULD develop an engine (what companies, who would design/manufacture specific components).You just point vaguely at german tech over 50+ years and imply that's all you need. Go ahead and try, I can't wait to see you come crawling back to GCAP in 5-15 years (depends how long your politicians are comfortable being lied to).
>>65395094> It’s true that Germany has no realistic path to a 6th gen motor without buying elsewhere (meaning US most likely), but the idea that they’ll come crawling back to GCAP is a good laugh. By the time that Germany would even consider this, politically, France will have thrown in the towel on GCAP as well, and will be working on a less ambitious “5.5” gen replacement project that is even less compatible with Germany’s needs.There is no US engine.None of the US engine primes can build a new core for Germany, and none of the existing cores they have that would fit the performance Germany needs are legally allowed (by Congress and ITAR) to be exported.P&W and GE are both massively constrained by the current USAF/USN requirements. The idea that they can just take a decade or two to develop/manufacture engines for Germany is a joke. Even if it were legally allowed (which it isn't).
>>65382450Italy should consider working with France for a carrier sixth gen.
>>65395262With how expensive GCAP will be, I don't see italy having the budget for that. They'll likely limp along with F-35Bs, and a later block 5/6 upgrade in the 2040/50s to refresh the F-35B fleet for the next 30 years beyond that.So at most we'll see italy build a new generation of F-35B carriers.
France should have bought F-35C for its carrier and built a large heavy air superiority fighter together with Germany.
>>65395350Except France will never buy American because they'd rather design something worse and pay more for it.
>>65395119You didn't have to murder him, damn
>>65390023It ist so vorbei mein friends. Pack it in. It can't be done. Nobody but the US and the UK can ever build a jet again. It's just literally, fundamentally not possible.Don't even try. It will take 6 million years to catch up.
>>65395382it's unrealistic because the frogs didn't want it, but I really think it would have been the best solution.It wouldn't have resolved workshare disputes, but it would've resolved the design problem of small/light carrier plane vs large/heavy land-based fighter.
>>65395382>>65396937the French need carrier capable planes to deliver a part of their nuclear arsenal.getting the F-35 would have meant redesigning and changing that part of their arsenalit would also mean that an other country gets to have an impact on its choice to deploy that part of its nuclear arsenal
>>65396948they should have just bought B61 nukes with it or changed their nuclear doctrine.but ofc I understand a state isn't flexible lile that.
>>65396897Of course not. Japan, Russia, China, and France can too.Sadly the 3 western ones there aren't working with Germany and have zero interest in doing so.The other 2 are geopolitical adversaries.If Germany wants to commit to 20-40 years be €10-30B to a clean sheet engine design, they're free to make that attempt. I just don't think they have the balls to do it.
somewhat relevant newsRolls-Royce is currently working on a scalable concept for an engine for CCA. Apparently done by Rolls-Royce Germany.So looks like Germany is getting serious about CCA engines, at least.https://www.hartpunkt.de/collaborative-combat-aircraft-rolls-royce-entwickelt-design-konzept-fuer-deutschland/
>>65397171Related news, BAEs new "all British" CCA concept won't use that engine because it's too expensive.
They're still babbling on here about germany, when they don't even realize germany will develop a much more powerful engine then the GCAP or what the french want ( their only engine developed in the last 30 years being the rafale copy cat).....with their little cope engines the 4 german fighters (2 unmanned stealth fighters + CCA + 6th gen) would fall out of the sky. Keep coping, the contracts are already signed, the alliance stands. Canada already wants in.
>>65397376Indeed, FCAS never made sense in the first place, the french now want a 11t rafale 2.0, that thing is completely useless - the germans on the other hand got it right with a fighter in the 20t range, same as an F22 with internal weapon bay for 6xAMRAAM + 2x Sidewinder - you need that to reach natos north eastern flank. I don't know what the french are slurping, but i hope everyone stays the fuck away from them forever.
>>65397399>you need that to reach natos north eastern flank[sic]Does this mean Finland?
>>65382362Why do people even care anymore when Germany will most likely just buy GCAP or the F-47. Like I don’t think even Germans are delusional enough to think they can make a jet alone.
>>65397516They're demanding SIGNIFICANT say on the GCAP airframe, which the GCAP partners aren't going to budge. So if they do buy GCAP it'll be in a decade+ as a pure customer. The F-47 won't be available for export, Donald Trump can say anything he wants, it requires congressional approval and that's not happening, even if the US had the industrial capacity, which they don't.
>>65397545>made up cope Ok bro, def trusting a 4channer.
>>65397609What's made up?> So your question was: Is Airbus ready to join GCAP? And my answer would be: it depends. What we're ready to do is to join something or to build something where we have a significant portion of the work and the leadership, and that's currently being exploredThat's the direct quote from Michael Schoellhorn, CEO of airbus defence and space. Also, US export restrictions for military jet engines forbid the export of any engine that can go beyond 300kW, which the F-47 would.Unless you get the law changed, trump can't do a fucking thing, if he's even alive by the time germany decides to buy something.Not to mention, once again, american primes don't have the industrial capacity to handle their own needs, let alone a theoretical 6th gen fighter for germany too.
>>65397665Schoellhorn isn't Germanyhe does what the government tells him to dowhat he's saying is just wishful thinkingif the government agrees with the GCAP consortium that Airbus gets some minor workshare then Airbus will do thatall of which is hypothetical because aside from this best case wishful thinking scenario Schoellhorn mentioned there is no public info
>>65397689Ahh yes, the guy who is the one directly negotiating with the GCAP partners on airbus/germany's inclusion in the program is just talking out of his ass.Kill yourself, seriously.
Why does every single thread involve people desperately trying to drive a wedge between GCAP bros?>>65382719That's not entirely true, UK/IT/JP have aerospace industries they need to keep alive, which us why all 3 are involved in tbe F35 production chain and none of them care about GCAP being carrier capable, they want something STACKED AND SLAMMED to complement their F35b>>65395262Why? Italy actually already operates a 5th gen carrier capable airframe, unlike France>>65387885Every thread you post this retarded shit
>>65389302Just buy USA
>>65399799You mean the jet that congress won't legally allow for export? That's what they should purchase?I hate you 'people', I really do.
>>65400640You're replying to a picture of an F-35 which is a big export success
>>65400734If we can call extortion exportation
>>65400734Then you mean the jet that isn't sufficient for the range/payload/compute/EW environment that germany actually thinks it needs.
>>65400640>americans abandoned their 5th gen air superiority fighter supremacy for 2 decades because they didn't want to sell the F22s to overseas customers and now they're scrambling to make literally anything to catch up to the multiple upcoming 6th gen jets nearing productionthis is so shortsighted and pathetic that i just have no words
>>65402677>things that never happenedCool story
>>65402677>You will never see German F-22's with Iron Crosses fighting the VKS over Belarus
