Will carbines and short barrel rifles replace SMGs as better options for close-quarters combat?
already has
>>65389655It depends. An SMG is still better if literally all you're doing is close quarters with no possibility of engaging anything beyond 50yds. Or if you need something that isn't going to sail way the fuck off into random shit/people. There's a reason so many police forces still use them. American cops aren't held to any safety standards hence why you see them all with ARs blasting away with zero regard for what's actually behind whatever they're engaging.
>>65389656/threadOnly LEO, security teams or death squads use SMGs, and they still usually use carbines.
>>65389678The Mp7 remains ridiculously popular and has been for well over a decade now. The role of the SMG hasn't been completely supplanted. It's obvious you're going to want something rifle caliber for any general usage, though.
>>65389662>An SMG is still better if literally all you're doing is close quarters with no possibility of engaging anything beyond 50yds.Please step out from behind cover and remove your vest so I can still pretend my SMG is better than your Carbine.
>>65389684It's not 1998 anymore. Literally nobody except some cops even bother with only soft armor, and no general purpose rifle caliber is effective against lvl4 plates.
>>65389656>>65389678>>65389683A submachine gun by definition fires a pistol cartridge.MP7 / P90 aren't pistol cartridges (HK dropped their pistol variant for good and valid reason, FN couldn't restrain their retardation).Yes obviously most police forces and militaries have gone to SBR assault rifles replacing their former submachine guns in the post-1990s era.Submachine guns firing pistol cartridges still have a niche role, and may ? also be preferred by some services / procurers for ammunition logistics reasons. But the """""intermediate cartridge""""" select fire rifles have largely supplanted what the mid-20th century submachine guns used to do.
>>65389695>and no general purpose rifle caliber is effective against lvl4 plates.tungsten 5.56 and 5.8 is more than up for it against numerous Level IVs, especially if they're B4C-faced.
>>65389695>Literally nobody except some cops even bother with only soft armorRussians and Ukrainians make extensive use of frag-rated soft armor which will beat 9x19 often but stands no chance against even basic 5.56 loads. Using 9x19 absent AP means you'll lose to crotch flaps, deltoids, necks, helmets, and other basic bullshit.
>>65389707P90's 5.7mm is a pistol cartridge whether you like it or not.The 4.6mm would be too, if HK wasn't such a bundle of faggots.
>>65389656
>>65389678>LEO, or death squadsWhat's the difference?
>>65390090tybg
>>65391659One upholds the law and maintains good order and societal cohesion...The other writes traffic tickets
>>65389655Already did like 60 years ago, it's why the XM177E2 and the K1 were designated as submachine guns since doctrinally and tactically they filled the same role of an SMG>but it fires an intermediate round REEEYell at the military planners, they don't care about strict adherence to firearms definitions and nomenclature. This is also why the FAL and G3 are assault rifles as designated by the nations that adopted them and America is the only country to officially adopt a "Battle Rifle" but that's a whole different conversation
>>65389655Yes as long as you don't care about>muzzle blast >harder to suppress well>not as compact>not able to carry a bunch of ammo (6+mags) while still having a slim silhouetteI personally feel as though smgs still have a place however niche it may be.
>>65389655They need a heavier bolt than standard assault rifles
>>65389655Hi, with the advancement of body armor I dont think smg which uses handgun calibre bullet defeat body armor as even intermediate rounds are having tough time so it seems the smg has to go.
>>65392146You can get through soft still with 9x19mm AP, but unless you have tungsten core like DM91 or 7N31M you have no chance versus even all-PE rifle plates at typical distances.
>>65392166All right, I guess muzzle energy of a round affects armor penetration too so handgun calibre rounds rarely cross 1000 joules which are often achieved by intermediate rounds like 5.45x39mm
>>65392182It does, especially versus thin backer plates like the Hesco T212 / RMA ESRT. You can brute force those with a .300 Winmag fairly reliably even with basic ass ammo.
>>65390090>5.7mm is a pistol cartridgeNo it is not.7,5 FK is
I think SMGs are still useful for police.
>>65392203Okay
>>65392262Yeah, smg is best for robbers and thugs who can't afford a decent body armor. 5.7X28mm or 9 mil does the job
>>65392262>9x19 overpenetrates more than 5.56whups
>>65389656fuh puh buh puh
>>65392259You should prepare for it anyway
>>65392291Miss/ Dude, if i remember cia or fbi dropped .40 sw and 10mm rounds long ago and switched back to 9 mil so I guess I will go for the 9 mil too
>>65392283Sounds like a whole lot of not my problem
>>65392283>>9x19 overpenetrates more than 5.56For real?
>>653923089 mil may over penetrate as i guess 556 gets fragmented early
>>65392308Yes, doesn't fragment and has more mass.>>65392306Here comes the PI attorneys 200k in debt who need any case!>>65392304.40 S&W and 10mm don't help against armor more than 9x19
>>65389655Rifles have no business with a barrel shorter then 20 inches.
>>65392318i see
>>65389655It's kinda funny, really. You could have your cake and eat it by running bullpups, but you'd rather just give'em a flash bang machine and hope they don't get engaged at rifle ranges.
>>65389683>ridiculously popularthey really aren't
>>65390090>The 4.6mm would be too, if HK wasn't such a bundle of faggots.Too small, can't get good ballistics out of a pistol barrel.4.6 and 5.7 are just not pistol cartridges, they are very weak rifle cartridges.
>>65392787This anon gets it.
>>65392787Basically .30 Carbine necked down.
>>65389656FPBP
>>65392591An 11.5” AR shooting modern 62gr+ bonded 5.56 ammo is fine for anything within 200 yards according to the FBI ballistician guy James Reeves interviewed.
>>65392280>>65392283>Deleted
>>65389655They already have.
>>65393591Unpersuasive against plates
>>65395544It will go through any plate meant to stop your 9mm SMG.
>>65395718>plate>9mm smgwe in 1955?
>>65389655what's it like living in the 2000s?
>>65389655Did you just blow in from the 1970s? >>65389656 is right, the SMG has been dead for at least twenty years, nad only poorfag forces that can't afford gucci carbines are using SMGs these days.
>>65392106>Assault rifle No such thing libtard
>>65389773they are also not actually concerned with getting shot, they are concerned with shrapnel.
>>65391659Depends on the mission.Top tier SWAT is probably facing less opposition, but if they fail or accrue civilian casualties, they eat shit.Wet team is probably facing tougher enemy, but if shit goes sideways it may never be public. Also the may be able to utilize more suprise. Some guys in a bank with hostages know that eventually they are getting flashbanged.
>>65389655They did like 30 years ago
>>65391659
>>65389656only reason 9mm carbines are still a thing is because of the price of ammo vs 556
>>65389683MP7 fires a bottle necked round similar to the 556
>>65389655this was already solved in the 90swith goldeneye, the RCP90
>>65389683>ridiculously popular
>>65397209cuh is stuck fighting the combine in city 17
>>65397202Yeah
>>65389655They're all just cope for the west not having an AK.
>>653927875.7 FN is a pistol cartridge. Typical loads are about 700 J from a 16" barrel. By contrast, .221 Fireball is a weak rifle cartridge of similar dimensions. Typical loads are about 1200 J from a 14" barrel.
>>653896555.56 is a pistol cartridge therefore 5.56 is a SMG.
>>65390090>>65392787>>65399359>>6538970744-40 Winchester is a rifle cartridgeso is 22 Long rifleyet 45 colt with a full power black powder load had more ballistic energy than both of them out of a 6 inch SAA
>>65392322Based
>>65399416.221 Fireball is a rifle cartridge even though the first and as far as I know only factory firearm chambered for it was the XP-100 pistol. 5.7 FN is a pistol cartridge even though the first factory firearm chambered in it was the P90. .357 is a pistol magnum even if you get a PCC chambered in it. Rimfire is rimfire, .22 WMR gets stacked next to .17 HM2 and not .22 Hornet or .32 ACP.
>>65390090>>65389707This is a friendly reminder that the MP7 is literally "Machine Pistol 7" in German.
>>65389655They have already because armor piercing 5.56 NATO round is made by every ammunition manufacturer in every Western country with ammunition factory. Body armor is a wide spread valid threat today. Very few pistol caliber round even today has a chance to defeat a modern body armor.I can only think 6.5 CBJ as a true armor piercing pistol round. Then again, Rifle caliber armor piercing rounds have not only a chance but a major advantage against modern body armor. Those can also immobilize lightly armored vehicles.
>>65401578You need tungsten carbide or DU cores for 6.5 CBJ or any rifle caliber to have serious authority versus good plates.Tungsten is industrially pretty tight.
>>65401543Machine pistols are a subcategory of submachine guns.(also picrel was designated 'MP' as were all German submachine guns)
>>65402115East Germany also designated their AKs built under license as “Machine Pistol Kalashnikov.”https://www.faktory47.com/blogs/kalashnikov/east-german-ak-history
>>65401578this is why you practice headshots
>>65392223>7,5 FK is Why can't those FK faggots license it out already, so we can get a 7.5'' barrel SMG chambering it. I mean, I know there's some fuckery with the Omani Royal Guard (who had initially commissioned the design), but surely they couldn't have demanded perpetual exclusivity.
