Just did a voluntary FO-course in Finland. The way you do fire commands in the US is ridiculous. As a part of NATO integration we had to change to english which isn't too bad, but I learned that in the US the FO doesn't give orders to the fire-unit directly but instead the FO only gives targets to high command which then gives the actual command to fire. Also we had to use radios for all of our fire commands instead of sending text which is stupid since you can't hear anything while under fire and while giving positions accuracy is important (also sending text takes less bandwidth which means that it's harder to jam). Correcting fires is also much slower since you decided to simplify it. It makes sense if you want anyone to to be able to give the command (or suggestion as that's what it is) but it's a pain for units that actually know what they are doing and who want to give commands fast and accurately.
yeah
>>65391687I can't say I'm surprised Finnbro, arty is an afterthought here that hasn't been given serious resources or doctrinal attention since the 1980s. Been a long time since anyone had more targets than the USAF had Paveways, and from that kind of superiority comes institutional complacency and knowledge rot.In the last two decades we've also suffered a growing educational crisis creating illiterate adults, particularly among the demographics likely to join up. Definitely a factor in why our guys resist text particularly and change generally.
>>65391687the average yank solider can't read is what I'm getting out of this
>>65391687We just need to take it up the chain before we make that village disappear
>>65391687Generally speaking, taking from the Ukrainian system would be ideal.
>Conscript of a country thats never gone more than 250 miles in am aggressive direction complainingThats nice dear, remember your only worth is as a holding unit until F35s save your ass.
>>65391798You should also take from it that the US military is in full psycho-stalker-yandere-girlfriend love with bureaucracy.
>>65391810As part of fire plans we always mark nono-zones in it. Ie churches, enemy field hospitals, places where civilians haven't evacuated from for some reason etc. And when we don't have the time to make such plans we still understand not to target such places.>>65391811I'm not familiar with it. Can you give me a rundown?>>65391816Why would we go 250 miles in an aggressive direction when out job is to defend our own land? The only places I would see as worth attacking would be from Viipuri to Käkisalmi to Pitkäranta since it would give us more defensible borders against future aggression.
>>65391687no pekka we are not letting e-3 daquan rodriguez send fire commands to the guns they are obliged to followpart of this is because the enlisted tend to be as >>65391777 has described themanother part of it is because no FO in the field is deconflicting airspace under fire and that needs to be done so we don't shoot down the bomb trucks and that is a company/bn level task>>65391811correctt ex 13A
>>65391777uh huh
>>65391811>taking from the Ukrainian system would be ideal>kludge together UberArtillery>have it hacked by Russians>never bring it up again>>65391816harshtrue, but harsh>>65391687>in the US the FO doesn't give orders to the fire-unit directly but instead the FO only gives targets to high command which then gives the actual command to firenot always>we had to use radios for all of our fire commands instead of sending textoh lolthat's the monkey model training you got, because you are very very low down the food chain, little onetell me, in the Finnish Army, do you have a personal handheld radio that can communicate directly with any NATO combat jet via Link 16? or is it all vehicle-mounted?thought not
>>65391862>no pekka we are not letting e-3 daquan rodriguez send fire commands to the guns they are obliged to followThen perhaps you should restrict the ability to call fires to only the specialists and not to just any sergeant or pfc? Here every infantry platoon has a FO-team that can call organic 81mm mortar support that's integrated into every infantry company, and if we need heavier assets we send the information about the targets up the chain and they will then give us said assets to order as we see fit (to a certain amount of munitions that is, usually at least worth 2 whacks).Watch this propaganda video since I wasted time trying to find something more relevant to no availhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEs82uBYTJQ
>>65391798They still can, on average, but not well or consistent enough to trust with explaining where a few hundred lbs of HE should go. The yankees remain least affected, it's likes of hoosiers and texans devolving toward India's 1 PHD : 300 cow-adoring streetshitters ratio (from say, 1:20 at worst) that's causing problems with communal planning. Finland consistently produces quality people and so Finns justifiably expect a high skill floor. Which also leaves them more prone to OP's bewilderment and consternation when exposed to the human median or minima, particularly when it diverges from the local frame of reference floor like "fetal alcohol slav".
>>65391873>NATO combat jetjtaccing is beyond our paygrade and unnecessary too since since our 155mms and 120mms can do everything besides bunker busting. It's pretty retarded to use our limited air assets for CAS when they are much better used for shooting down enemy jets and blowing up bridges with JASSMs far beyond the frontlines.We always carry radios and these have been networked to amplify each other. Even the older tadiran CNR-900s and their smaller CNR-710s cousins have this ability with our upgrades.
>>65391687>in the US the FO doesn't give orders to the fire-unit directly but instead the FO only gives targets to high command which then gives the actual command to fireIt’s all fun and games until you go to prison because you accidentally called rounds on Habibi and his goat wives.
>>65391873>that's the monkey model training you got, because you are very very low down the food chain, little oneI don't understand why you would restrict such a simple piece of equipment to higher level units. Text based fire commands are the norm here even for platoon FOs and we only use the radios now because it's the NATO standard. You can reprogram pretty much any commercial tablet for the role.
>>65391867>300lb burgers blasting 1000rd at vegetables 20ft downrange>burgers blasting durkassame amount of useful "practice" occurring
>>65391926We are preparing for total war against Russia, not anti-insurgent operations against some tribals on the other side of the globe
>>65391687A fellow artyfag, cool.No clue how the US does shit, but I can give you my 2 cents from my own experience.>n the US the FO doesn't give ordersMight depend if you have a fire unit in direct support or not, Ideally each maneuver battalion has its own allocated battery, but sometimes they might be allocated to brigades which employ them on behalf of its battalions.>Also we had to use radios for all of our fire commandsTrust the process, there are other more expedient ways, they all eventually lead to one sort of fuck up or another.>giving positions accuracy is importantDo you have access to a digital battle management system ? we still learn and practice using the good old methods using maps and shit, but almost no one really directed fire that way in combat.>Correcting fires is also much slower since you decided to simplifyIdeally if the battery knows what its doing and it dosent have a massive, unsolvable mess of shells and charges, all you really need is to do terrain registration which opens a bucket and then you're mostly good to go.p.s went to Finland this last winter, was a real blast.>t. iIDF artillery guy and FO
>>65391942>Text based fire commandsare available on US platoon radiosI meant that Finnish conscripts, in particular, are probably not prioritised to train on that shitprobably because Finnish and American radios probably don't have the same text, image and location data protocolsand you are being cross-trained with the objective of interoperability with US forces, right?
>>65391926If that were true, everybody participating in operations in Iraq after the 9/11 thing would be breathing filtered air, no?
>>65391983Now I want to read Finnglish text fire commands.Gebba dat Russki er pëkka-pëkka mitta det kannonstromlekki, Lattitedda 102.24, Lönga 202.02.
>>65391873>Do you have a personal handheld radio that can communicate directly with ... combat jetfrom what I've gathered (from the internet) the new FDF SDR radios are able to directly talk to FDF jets through the M18 C5 system. Don't know for sure, the FDF keeps a closed lid on most things.>any NATOdunno how well the systems are integrated.
>>65391949That’s just how we’ve done things for the past quarter century. Prease undastand.
>>65391838Your only concern is not dying until F35s fly overhead.
>>65391947>Spamming towed arty from a safe position>:( boring, too easy>Spamming towed arty from a safe position, Ukraine:0 so magical
>>65391942Different planning bases create different and less effective outcomes when one is rigidly applied, yes.You have very few people who are very good at what they do whom you value very much. America has a lot of people who were (formerly) good at what they do; people are valued but success doesn't require their value to be optimized (and without challenge, laziness eventually prevails). Which is how we came to set the standards but no longer lead and push for everyone to adopt better, more nuanced, or more comprehensive ones.
>>65392024>safe position, Ukrainedoesn't exist
>>65391983>I meant that Finnish conscripts, in particular, are probably not prioritized to train on that shitWhenever possible we only use text since it's faster, silent and more reliable than radio and everybody is trained on that, and it's as simple as connecting a tablet to your radio. The only reason why we spoke to radios in this training is because for some reason it's the NATO standard. When it comes to giving fc data you don't really need separate image and location data channels when you can give everything relevant in a simple low bandwidth text message i.e. "Fire mission, adjust fire, GRID 35VNM..., altitude 85, direction 2050, 5 times code 83, whack, when ready," You could abbreviate all of that to less than 25 characters if we could agree on common abbreviations.
>>65392000It's very boring. You would only see 2-4 word abbreviations and lines of numbers giving location and direction data.
>>65392046>is because for some reason it's the NATO standardas I said: because NATO>radios probably don't have the same text, image and location data protocolsand in this case when I say "NATO" I really do mean each country
>>65391949Just admit Finland - hell all of Europe - are too poor to afford bombs, plans, and the fuel to completely decimate Russia's nonexistent air force, and vaporize every last one of those inbred vatniggers trying to run across your border with their donkey pulling their clapped out WWI artillery guns. You politicians would rather give money to Mohammed durkka durkka and his 10 wives and 30 kids than invest in your military so you don't have to set in a trench firing artillery rounds at an invading army like its 1912. Fucking pathetic European trash. ALL OF YOU. Oh, and Russia's military is complete fucking trash. They can't even take Ukraine or stop Ukraine from bombing the shit out of Moscow and St. Petersburg every single day. Get fuck real; it's not 1954 anymore. I hate every last one of you cucked ass Europeans and your poor ass dilapidated militaries.
>>65392044Anon they are blowing out barrels more often than losing artillery teams. Being just in range for punishing the frontline is what 90% of artillery is doing this war and no one can SEAD reliably.
>>65391966>Do you have access to a digital battle management systemNope, at least not at the platoon level. Can't really trust that with Russian jamming being so prevalent. We have digital systems that can give location data in about 15 seconds, but even then we are only limited to distance and angle readings if jammed and thus we have to have analogues. Also when we are defending it's very useful to have a preplanned fires so we can just tell the fire units to fire at a point that they already know of. A decently trained fo can get fires in 2 minutes with just the analogues and a fireplan in less than 7 minutes.
>>65392046>silentYou retarded motherfucker, your firing a fucking cannon 10m from your squatting spot. Everything in a 5km radius knows you're there. You are one stupid motherfucker.
>>65391687Yeah?A lot of the things you people do with fish should be considered internationally criminal.
>>65392075It would do well for you americans to learn about individual European countries instead of looking at Britain or Germany and expecting that we are all like that. I probably know more about US states than you know about individual European countries, especially the ones close to Russia.
>>65392084>I probably know more about US states than you know about individual European countrieslol no
>>65392075Finland invests more on defense by GDP than you do, amerifat. They are not ivory-towered western euros. Their problem is having the population+wealth of only Massachusetts alone while sharing a giant border with aforementioned envious vatniggers
>>65392084I know exactly where and what Finland is, you retarded fuck. Just like all European countries, your military is poor as fuck and filled with retarded weekend warriors that would shit themselves the first time a gun is fired their way. Your military is a LARP with the budget of a 15 year old airsoft player.
>>65391887Every US infantry platoon CAN call for fire without a dedicated FO, the call goes through a FDC/FDO just like it does most of the time when initiated by a FO.Why would you be surprised that they wouldn't trust some scout company fuckhead E4 FO either or some gay FISTER either?
>>65391838in us doctrine the nono zone is the engagement zone because of gwot, we don't get the luxury of conventional war
>>65392081I don't understand why anyone would set up their observation post 10 meters from their fire unit. >>65392103It's quite strange how our destitute and retarded weekend warrior military consistently beats up your own forces in joint training.All of this blustering is ridiculous when the US haven't even had any credible existential threats since the fall of the Confederacy.The point of this thread is to discuss forward observing, not cheer for ones "football team" while jeering other "football teams".
>>65392095>Finland invests more on defense by GDP than you do, amerifatNo the fuck it doesn't. Finland spends 2.4% of it's GDP on "defense" and I'm highly suspicious as to what their considering defense as they have literally nothing to show for it. Anyway, 2.4% of Finland's GDP is $7.5 billion. The US spends 3.1% of it's GDP, or $1 TRILLION on defense. Shut the fuck up, you retards poor ass mongoloid.
>>65392125>It's quite strange how our destitute and retarded weekend warrior military consistently beats up your own forces in joint training.>in traininglol lmao even. Almost like the US allows the poor retards to get some wins to increase confidence in their dilapidated shitty military or something...
>>65392095>Finland invests more on defense by GDP than you doin addition to what >>65392128 said, Finland wasn't even meeting the 2% NATO guideline until 2023, pillunkarva
>>65392080Are you a platoon level FO ?Thats really bringing the fire support down low, we usually run FO as an officer at the battalion level.> Can't really trust that with Russian jamming being so prevalentWe had plenty of EW going on from all sides and we didnt rally feel its impact, mostly it was software fuckery that was making life difficult and fucking us over.We always go through a planning phase and have preplanned targets disseminated beforehand. so usually you dont need the FO to engage each target or even correct it since the observer can be any other officer in the field.also judging by that table, you really dont have any method of terrain registration and opening a bucket other than correcting for effect ?
>>65392136Yep, figured out where that increase in "defense" is coming from.https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/236553176/finland-to-fund-additional-eur-40-million-purl-package-for-ukraine
>>65391687NATO is build around air power, artillery has not been a big player for the US especially since Fallujah. Artillery does most of it's work in static positions firing defensively, and NATO likes it's maneuver warfare. I am somewhat surprised the war in Ukraine has not made them at least update artillery practices though since clearly it is still possible for trench to trench meat grinders to happen in modern warfare, something previously thought to be a thing of the past.
>>65391890In leningrad in the 90s the city would send around paddy wagons to peel all the passed out drunk finns from the street every weekend
>>6539212880% of our male population are reservists and all of them can be equipped. The most able part of this reserve regularly takes part in refresher exercises. The fact that you manage to spend so much on so little speaks of military that serves its suppliers instead of the opposite. Even the Russian military appears to be less corrupt when it comes to procurement.
>>65392125In war games with Finland the US army considers even rear line Finn units as elite troops lol
>>65392160Normally I would find some massively culturally insulting way to explain how you're wrong butNo.Just go away.
>>65392125>It's quite strange how our destitute and retarded weekend warrior military consistently beats up your own forces in joint training.Not that anon, but don't be too cocky. The training scenarios intentionally place our guys in losing situations. Confidence booster for you little ones (especially our brown/izzat cultured allies otherwise inclined to retreat or roll over for a large, threatening neighbor) and reality check for our guys, that size and firepower don't automatically win at the tactical scale. Same thing internally, that's why it's noteworthy if a unit goes to Yakima and wins; OPFOR personifies the cheating RTS AI.This isn't an expression of disagreement or lack of faith in the FDF, more a reminder not to bite his bait too hard.
>>65392160>Even the Russian military appears to be less corrupt when it comes to procurement.This is unironically true but only because there's far less money for them to grift
>>65392160>80% of our male population are reservists and all of them can be equipped.With what a rifle and 20 bullets?>The most able part of this reserve regularly takes part in refresher exercises.Weekend warriors LARPing in the cold for a couple hours each month isn't actually doing shit.>The fact that you manage to spend so much on so little speaks of military that serves its suppliers instead of the opposite.How the fuck could a military "serve its suppliers"? The very meaning of the word supplier is to serve it's customers, you utterly retarded alcoholic mongoloid slavic rape baby.>Even the Russian military appears to be less corrupt when it comes to procurement.Lay off the meth.
>>65392143Not even that. I'm an assistant to the FO, but we undergo the same training so we can resume the mission in case any other member of the team gets killed. The FO and the NCO are expected to know all enemy codes, exact angles for arty ellipses and they need to be able to calculate the time for timed fuzes so that they explode as air bursts whereas we only need to know the radios, instruments and fire commands. In practice this means that when I give a fire command I'll assume that the area of the effect will be a circle even if I'm not giving commands to mortars and I will only give a general description of the enemy if any.A platoon level FO team has the FO, FO-NCO, a comms man and 2 assistants who handle the instruments and act as replacements when needed. The team can be split into 2 or even 3 parts to get more coverage and redundancy. Then we have other FOs higher up the chain that exist to give us access to more firepower than our organic 81mms, assuming that they aren't at the front in their own OP.
>>65392207>This is unironically trueNo, it's not. The Russian military is corrupt to it's fucking core from top to bottom. You trying to gaslight as deny reality after 6 years of verifiable proof of this is hilarious. Now, get on your donkey and charge UAV alley.
>>65392160>80% of our male population are reservistsyeah and half of them are overweight and at least 10%, probably more, have a BMI of 30+>and all of them can be equippednot with armoured vehicles; Finland only has 1,000 APCs and 200 IFVs in inventorythis means, generously speaking, fewer than 20,000 Finnish troops get armoured rides; the rest can take the bus>The most able part of this reserve regularly takes part in refresher exercisesFinland calls up 30,000 reservists every year, out of 900,000 currently registeredthat means the average reservist only gets called up for refresher training ONCE every thirty yearsfor every one reservist who gets annual refresher training (for whatever that's worth), thirty reservists don't get ANY refresher training AT ALLmake all the vainglorious boasts you like, you can't beat the maths
>>65392218Damn, thats alot of manpower. but directing fires the old school method is kinda demanding, but very satisfying and fun. Are you also qualified to direct air support ?
>>65392227K man you are just a blind retard who refuses to see what is clearly obvious with the trillions and trillions of graft that US mil ind enjoys, probably out of some retard chest thumping pride in something you have no part in whatsoever>example of russian corruption: pidor spends the 100,000 rubles allocated to maintenance on cheap liquor instead>example of american corruption: multimillion dollar no bid contracts handed out like candy between the revolving door of politicians and corporate lobbyists every few years like clockwork
>>65392143Also here the FO is almost always in charge of fires planning. Other officers can do it if the NCO has diarrhea but they have their hands full with other stuff so we don't prefer that. The table in the pic is empty. If it were filled you would see numbers for grids, OPs, several preplanned targets usually set at terrain features and a crude hand drawn map giving you an idea of roads, rivers, houses and other terrain features
>>65391687The confusion is that you're not being trained on how the US does it, you're being trained on NATO interoperability standards. You're not being taught how it's done in every country, you're being taught the lowest rung of communication that will work with everyone from the US to Estonia.
>>65392254Ive never used that one, we are all digital as our main but we still train on 1:50K maps and a militaryt protractor as back up.
>>65392246>trillions and trillions of graft that US mil ind enjoys>US defence budget less than a trillion a year>entire defence PLUS aerospace sector combined has a market cap of only 2 trillionwhy do jeets always exaggerate so
>>65392216>With what a rifle and 20 bullets?Sprinter vans are indispensable too, your Amazon agrees. Same-day dead ryssä delivery services.
>>65392216>With what a rifle and 20 bullets?The national strategy is AKs for everyone, yes
>>65392136>pillunkarvaWhat is this FSL speak
>>65392234Our terrain is such that vehicles can only really travel on roads especially in the eastern territories. Our doctrine for defending against Russia is to let them advance on the roads for a fair bit and then surround them infantry while bombarding the whole length of the column with arty. If they were smart they wouldn't even try a mechanized assault against us, yet the same terrain works against our own armor if we wanted to counter attack deep into their territory
>>65392000TIL: Finglish is actually just Swedish.
>>65392234>not with armoured vehicles; Finland only has 1,000 APCs and 200 IFVs in inventory>this means, generously speaking, fewer than 20,000 Finnish troops get armoured rides; the rest can take the busHave you ever been to Finland? What do you think vehicles would achieve in this sort of terrain?
>>65391966>Trust the process, there are other more expedient ways, they all eventually lead to one sort of fuck up or another.No-fuckups-allowed is peacetime expeditionary force logic, and terminally retarded against even regional-power adversaries. There are certainly doctrine and institutional knowledge benefits to constant practice wars against durkas, but in this, such practice makes us very, very stupid.
>>65392324>let them advance on the roads for a fair bit and then surround them infantrywho will outflank them on foot?>>65392328>What do you think vehicles would achieve in this sort of terrain?protected operational mobility over hundreds of miles of roads
>>65392324
Why are Americans so triggered by other countries being better than their slop military full of Tyrones, Josés and Cletuses?
>>65392338>t.Even a nigger is higher caste than you dalit worm.
>>65392334>protected operational mobilityThe protected part has never been Finnish doctrine, might be retarded but I don't see it making much of a difference in the drone era
>>65392334Have you ever been to traffic jam? All it takes for us to stop the column is a few at mines. If we really want to put effort to it we can send in our own tanks, atgm teams and a pioneer company to turn the whole road into chasm. When the enemy is stopped there they have nowhere to move as the terrain prevents them from spreading out. At that point they would try to disengage by reversing but our at teams would be working to destroy the rearmost vehicles to create a roadblock to trap them.>>What do you think vehicles would achieve in this sort of terrain?>protected operational mobility over hundreds of miles of roadsYou don't want to be inside a BTR while 155mms shells are falling around you. The fragments are enough to cut clean through the armor and come off at the other side. Even MBTs will get destroyed with a direct hit and if there is plenty of armor we would use BONUS shells and MLRS cluster warheads. I can tell you that the infantry AT teams won't have much to mop up after a proper barrage
>>65392334>who will outflank them on foot?Anybody in that terrainIf you can't read Finnish then everything on that map that ends in -suo is a swamp of some description
Can't believe the richest country in the world has a really big military budget.
>>65392348Ukrainians have pointed out that it is precisely because of the drone era that military vehicles now need additional protection>>65392355>we can send inand you will outrun them on foot?>You don't want to be inside a BTR while 155mms shells are falling around youbut it's fine to have Finnish reservists walking, or using unarmoured transport, while 152mm shells are falling around them?>>65392359and 1,200 APCs is enough to block all the roads in Finland?
>>65392404What do you need APCs for? Every single bridge is rigged to blow and a lot of the terrain in the east is impassable to vehicles otherwise
>>65392404>Ukrainians have pointed out that it is precisely because of the drone era that military vehicles now need additional protectionThe terrain of Ukraine is open fields, thus you pretty much have no hope hiding yourself and have to rely on speed and armor to evade death and the videos that leak from there show that this only works so well>and you will outrun them on foot?Outrun what?>but it's fine to have Finnish reservists walking, or using unarmoured transport, while 152mm shells are falling around them?We are pretty fucked if it comes to that. Hence we put a lot of effort into concealment. For example we are getting rid of our old stove tents since they glow like the sun to thermal cameras and whenever our vehicles stop or we set up camp we conceal our vehicles and tents with anti-IR camo tarps. Snipers, scouts and ATGM teams wear cloaks made from the same material while waiting for the enemy in position.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHTXp33MAFI
>>65391949>total war against Russia>not blasting tribalsHave you seen the state of Russia for the past decade?
>>65392075Okay, Mr. "359 000 USD debt per american taxpayer" :D
>>65392246you know it's impossible for me to read this without hearing a thick, thick, barely literate coast fisher's accent
>>65392404>but it's fine to have Finnish reservists walking, or using unarmoured transport, while 152mm shells are falling around them?It has historically been much harder to target and affect dispersed infantry moving with overhead cover and across soft soil. Sensors and fuses are finally good enough and drones agile enough this might not be true anymore, but fiber optics aren't gonna work in hilly forest so jamming might nip that threat in the bud completely and our gunners remain better than theirs so the shells will stop. It's fine for now.
>>65392421>What do you need APCs for?to transport your own infantry to the front line while potentially under artillery fire?to manoeuvre tactically in response to unexpected enemy movement?>Every single bridge is rigged to blowmmhmm, surethe problem with the Finnish strategy is that it relies on the enemy moving into the fire zone exactly as Finland plans>>65392429>Outrun what?the enemy.you're betting that you can predict exactly where the enemy goes, no mistakesand that if the enemy goes anywhere else, you can see the enemy, react, and preposition your ambushers exactly in the right place; and furthermore that they will not only reach their positions but they will also put up concealment before the enemy can see themmostly on foot.
>>65392454>our gunners remain better than theirs so the shells will stop. It's fineso long as the US provides ISRhence the need for OP's training exercise
>>65392451Debt is fake when you rule the world like the US does.
>>65392457>you're betting that you can predict exactly where the enemy goes, no mistakesThere's a very limited number of roads and I don't think they'd get very far outside themThe biggest thing I think doesn't get enough attention is the possibility of a helicopter assault like they did at the start of the Ukraine war but I don't know what exactly that would accomplish
>>65392458Finland has trained in artillery autism since WW2, it's pretty much the only thing we have
>>65392457If Russia decides to attack us most of their effort will on concentrated on the roads, if they apply pre-Ukraine tactics. If they are smart they will forego a mechanized assault altogether and just send waves of infantry at us through the whole width of the border. The latter will be worse for us but since we figured out that the Ottawa Treaty was a dumb idea so we would just cover the whole border with mines and wire. Whenever something blows up and starts squealing in pain we would call in a barrage on that position and then send a drone or some people to see what remains.I'm not too worried since the Russians have no idea how to fight in this terrain. Their current tactics of infiltrating into an abandoned cellar and sending drones from there won't work here because of our terrain and doctrine. First drones don't work here because of our terrain, not only does the forest snag wires and provide concealment but it also reduces to range of radio drones to the point where they have to go by roads so that the surrounding tree cover bounces the signal. Secondly our doctrine is about maximizing enemy casualties even at the cost of terrain. Unlike Ukraine we are happy to give up an outhouse if it means that the enemy occupying it will be blown up by the booby trap we set up there.
>>65391873>have it hacked by RussiansElaborate? Got any details to read?
>>65392488>drones don't work hereI wouldn't go this far but it really does diminish their effectiveness quite a bit
>>65392458 >so long as the US provides ISRWe have our own surveillance drones, our own counter-battery radars and even our own spy satellites (we are actually the top international supplier of SAR spy satellites in Europe and we have given 1 for Ukraine to use).
>>65392499To be more accurate quadcopters and fiber drones don't work well here. Anything with wings still does the job
>>65392457Less distance to cover, finite invasion paths, preparation - these are all safe assumptions for a defender to make, especially under the particular circumstances here.
>>65392489I think he's talking about this? I don't think has any relevance to any artillery system Ukraine is using today tho, so it's kinda weird to bring it up.https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-hacking-proves-lethal-after-ukrainian-military-app-compromised/
>>65392457>the problem with the Finnish strategy is that it relies on the enemy moving into the fire zone exactly as Finland plansIt's a small country, pretty much everything in south is already a fire zone. The eastern parts are cut to pieces by bodies of water and the north doesn't have much in terms of importance.
>>65392201So the US army intentionally loses for propaganda purposes? Wouldn't it be smarter if we trained properly so that we would understand each others strengths and weaknesses?
>>65392532Also while the north isn't as dotted by lakes as the middle it's far more swampy. You are as limited there as you are in the middle if not more so. I had the displeasure of experiencing the terrain myself while doing the FO exerciset. OP
>>65392532Christ just how long is that lake just north west of Lahti
>>65392476>The biggest thing I think doesn't get enough attention is thelack of air defence assets, because the game now is finding each other's key supporting fires and killing them with missiles and drones, before they do the same to you>possibility of a helicopter assault like they did at the start of the Ukraine war but I don't know what exactly that would accomplishoutmanoeuvre FDF forces, break prepositioned FDF ambushes, and delay or halt FDF reactions to enemy movement>>65392500>We have our ownand the US ISR arsenal dwarfs it, it's like at least 3x the size of all of Europe's ISR assets>>65392488>we would just cover the whole border with mines and wirehow long would that take, given the limited transport assets you have?wars happen on short notice these days>>65392505>Less distance to coverit's 1,000km from one end of the country to the other as the crow flies1,300km by road from Helsinki to Nuorgam800km from Helsinki to Rovaniemi, 600km to Kontiomakithe latter is about equivalent to the Kyiv-Kharkiv front>>65392532>the north doesn't have much in terms of importanceI am guessing that they would be prepared to sacrifice that
>>65391687>but it's a pain for units that actually know what they are doing and who want to give commands fast and accurately.The american army's standard practices are designed for an army made out of people with considerably average lower IQ than the average finn IQ.
>>65392535>Wouldn't it be smarter if we trained properlysmarter, yes; politically acceptable, nothe US army can defeat every military it exercises with if they were really tryingthey have to pretend to be retards to make our guys feel better(this also helps them learn from our guys, the sneaky bastards)
>>65392532Hey! Just because it didn't work the first time doesn't mean you shouldn't try it again!
>>65392547about 120km give or takehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A4ij%C3%A4nne
>>65392246>finland population 5.6 million>usa 350 million>ratio 62x>finland budget 7.5b>times 62>480 billion>finland doesnt have a fucking massive air or sea apparatus with equivalent overhead and costsno actually if anything it suggests you fish people rob each other more
>>65392476>Helicopter assaultDon't worry too much, I have some faith it's a concern of the Air Force. And the Sturmis' last mission was cosplaying as airbase outbuildings; VDV contingency plans exist.
>>65392532>the north>easyNever mind that they'd pretty much be using the same roads as they did in '39
>>65392550>>possibility of a helicopter assault like they did at the start of the Ukraine war but I don't know what exactly that would accomplish>outmanoeuvre FDF forces, break prepositioned FDF ambushes, and delay or halt FDF reactions to enemy movementIt would be very amusing to see them try that. There aren't that many places here where you can land a lot of forces and these places have been marked for mines and artillery. If they try to spread their landing zones apart then these forces are at great risk of being surrounded. Then there is the problem of the whole of NATO sending their air forces here to shoot down the enemy and when Russia can't even achieve air superiority over Ukraine I doubt that we would even need them.>and the US ISR arsenal dwarfs it, it's like at least 3x the size of all of Europe's ISR assetsI don't doubt that. Yet the US is a global empire while we are just concerned about defending ourselves against Russia, and what we now have is more than enough.>how long would that take, given the limited transport assets you have?wars happen on short notice these daysA weekend for decent protection, a week for proper. We have sigint and our spy satellites so we would mobilize the moment Russia starts sending lots of assets near our border. Manpower isn't a issue for us because of conscription and any man or woman can do the jobhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rouq9qdzq90&t=3s>You believe that? 4chan has lead you astray, guy. Brave of you to think your broadband cellular network will still be intact on the front lines. Comfy millenial belief system intact.We won't use our cellulars for that. Our basic platoon level Tadiran CNR-900 have the ability for text as do our other radios.
>>65392568you know you can send text messages over radio right?
>>65392568It doesn't have to be cellular to send text
>>65392604>>65392606oh uh the radists have arrived quick deploye emotional trauma!https://youtu.be/RgU5Zp-u9xY?is=JjAMcE3z7L0oRm8D
>>65392596>vidWe really never throw anything awayThe same Sergeis and Oerlikons we had when my dad was in in 1972
>>65392606ignore bait lmao>>65392596>If they try to spread their landing zones apart then these forces are at great risk of being surroundedby Finnish troops on foot?>whole of NATOyeah nah if all NATO is involved in the shooting then it's not even a questionthe danger is the kind of salami-slicing grey-zone limited conflict like Ukraine is facing now>we would mobilize the moment Russia starts sending lots of assets near our borderthe problem is political uncertainty, as with Ukraine. every European nation on the continent was confident that Russia would not attack until, what, 48 hours? before they actually hit Kyiv>Manpower isn't a issue for us because of conscription1 million casualties for Russia is provably not a problem to their mindset1 million casualties for Finland is
>>65392618It's good that we didn't. Those things work well against shaheds
>>65392620if any of your dormer posts made any sense the russians would have tried before Finland joined NATO
>>65392620>the problem is political uncertainty, as with UkraineI don't actually disagree, I think the military's on the ball but the civilian leadership might shit their pants
>>65392624>dormerdoomerroot word: doom>the russians would have tried before Finland joined NATOno real reason to take Finland actually>>65392626yepit's always the fucking civvies
Why jankies got so defensive in this thread? A small country that is training to defend against a big nigger on ideal artillery terrain probably knows a shit ton more than a country that is focused on expeditionary war and air power.
>>65392568Are you suggesting Nokia's infrastructure wouldn't survive nuglear war :DDD
>>65392620>by Finnish troops on foot?Not quite. The great thing about conscription is that you have plenty of people to spare. We can have the most able troops doing counter-attacks into Russia while the 40 yos drive on the backs of Hiluxes and surround the enemy, setting up mortars and shooting down copters with stingers
>>65392630Butthurt burger pride or rusfunded jeets sowing discord can be hard to tell apart.
I feel like voice comms would be something you'd want to avoid whenever possible when operating with foreign units. Imagine trying to parse what an Italian and a Finn screaming at each other in English being broken in new and interesting ways.
>>65392640>stingersI like the RBS70>while the 40 yos drive on the backs of Hiluxes and surround the enemyif the terrain is unpassable to BMPs, it is unpassable to Hiluxes also; therefore those 40yos would be attempting to surround the enemy while on footif the terrain is not unpassable, the enemy would be free to manoeuvre as wellthen there's the problem of unarmoured Hiluxes being interdicted before they reach the front line, a major problem in Ukraine
>>65392273>brown turdie doesn't understand time horizons longer than a yearFigures a fucking ESL brown etc retard like you would reply like this. The F35 program is going to cost 2 trillion over many years for example, the most expensive single program in history BTW. This has been a huge problem with the Pentagon at least since Vietnam, so trillions is accurate
>>65392649that's why they run these exercises, so that broken English is identified and hopefully mitigated
>>65392653>then there's the problem of unarmoured Hiluxes being interdicted before they reach the front line, a major problem in UkraineAt least they would have some forest cover in Finland, every place has shitty logging roads you can use if you have any terrain capability
>>65392620>>65392640Also we have wartime laws that gives the military the right to take any civilian vehicle that could be of use to them. This means that we won't have any shortage of MX bikes, pickups, vans, SUVs etc. We are prepared for total war. We have even invested heavily into nuclear shelters (they would accommodate 70% of the entire population, while the capital has 34% more places than it's population) so that we could continue the fight even if Russia nukes us and covers our lands with nerve gas and anthrax spores.
>>65392659>the most expensive single program in historyproducing the best combat jet in history at a unit cost that is comparable with previous-generation combat jetsholy based
>>65392454>but fiber optics aren't gonna work in hilly forestWhy wouldnt they work in a hilly forest if they work inside a house?
>>65392630>>65392645behold, the true universal human behaviormaking up a bunch of retarded shit when a small amount of people fixate on some dumb stuff someone said
>>65392674Because houses don't have branches
>>65392678>behold, the true universal human behavior>making up a bunch of retarded shitFTFY
>>65392547>Christ just how long is that lake just north west of LahtiYou can go by boat from the Baltic to Kuopio
>>65392653>if the terrain is unpassable to BMPs, it is unpassable to Hiluxes alsoIt's quite different to approach fortified position on road with an enemy that has prepared for you in that exact position than it is to approach an enemy far away from the front lines that just got there by copter.
>>65392692>in that exact positionand as I pointed out before, that's a bold assumptionit's also quite different to defeat an enemy in the exact position you had prepared for him to be in, and to defeat an enemy in a meeting engagement at a position you had not expected him to be in
>>65392682>Because houses don't have branchesYou cant snag a fiber optic drone, it does not tow the fiber optic cable behind itself. Fiber optic drones are actually great in forests as they are not affected by radio shadows or radio absorbing vegetation and moist. They are blocked by water though.
>>65392703Take a look at our terrain in Finland and tell me where you intend to attack us by surprise with mechanized, airborne or sea forces. You could do it with infantry, but not with anything that has a motor attached to it. Our terrain and our current surveillance simply forbids it.
>>65392705Drone propeller blades aren't exactly friends of branches either, and visibility is limited, even with thermal (it's just another kind of light, after all).
>>65392556>5 months and 6 days into pretending to be retarded against eye-ran
>>65392709> Take a look at our terrain in the Ardennes and tell me where you intend to attack us by surprise with mechanized, airborne or sea forces. You could do it with infantry, but not with anything that has a motor attached to it. Our terrain and our current surveillance simply forbids it.t. Honhonhonouibaguette c.1940
>>65392759See, I'd buy that if the Russians were WW2 Germany or even early war Japan tierBut they'd have to unfuck their entire doctrine to reach that level
>>65392535>IntentionallyEveryone is still playing to win, but under RoE or force compositions that are abjectly retarded or unlikely to the point of absurdity. Squadron airmeets are a frequent example - using spare flight hours leftover in the exercise budget for BFM practice is useful/justifiable (and fun!) for everyone involved. That every year or two it invariably ends with an Eagle/Raptor pilot eating crow against an old Mirage, Hawk, or picrel is an equally valuable lesson.
>>65391687>sending textTelegram?
>>65392848https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanomalaite_M/90
>>65392488>>65392503>First drones don't work here because of our terrain, not only does the forest snag wires and provide concealment but it also reduces to range of radio drones to the point where they have to go by roads so that the surrounding tree cover bounces the signal.>To be more accurate quadcopters and fiber drones don't work well here. Anything with wings still does the jobSee videos from Ukraine.FPV drones with fiber do work in forest, albeit less efficient. Heavy bomber drones with thermals are eye of teh Sauron and Hand of God fighting infantry in teh woods. Looking straight down trees canopies dont conceal that well and thermals see bettwen in teh gaps between branches and leaves. Bomb drops go through canopies. If canopies is thick they drop grenades with time fuse that fall through any canopies. In the woods infantry still has much more cover than in a open terrain. But point is before trained infantry could move in teh woods over swampy terrain or snow cover, and mechanied untis couldnt follow them, only sticking to roads. You move 500 meters away from teh road and they cant see and hear you. Today drones can reach you. If you stay static you can probably hide in the cover under thermal blankets but if you need to move as platton and lager size you would be easily detected by these drones. Walking over rough woody terrain sucks by itself hard enough already you wouldnt be able to maintain concealment. Motti tactics are now heavily restricted by drones because flaking maneuver over woods on foot within drones range is very dangerous now.
>>65392876Outdated, as is the Panasonic CF-U1 Toughbook. Now we just use some commercial tablet. Doesn't matter if it breaks since there are plenty more to replace what was lost. Also the CFU was unreliable
>>65392876Neat. Before smartphones and SMS. Smart thinking.
>>65392887The small patches of "forest" you see in Ukraine are a bit different than what we have here. Ukraine is <10% forest while Finland is <10% non-forest.While you are partly right about bomber drones the same still applies to the enemy. A big drone is easy to shoot down while the smaller ones that make the majority of casualties in Ukraine simply don't work here.
>>65391816Holding who? Why are F-35s needed?Have you paid no attention to the last 4 years?The Fins could easily solo modern Russia.
>>65392128Pete, put down the bourbon and get back to work, there’s a fucking war on with Iran for gods sake
>>65392901>A big drone is easy to shoot down while the smaller onesForest concealment works in the opposite direction too. They hide drone from ground observation, you can only see (during night if you have thermals if you don't its over) when looking straight up, it greatly reduces opportunities to spot and kill drone. Also if drone operator sees he got in the trouble he can move drone away from dangerous spot very fast in seconds, drones have absolute over-match in speed and agility over infantry wading through under forest.Also now pure recon drones can be vary small even if they carry thermals.
>>65392918>Forest concealment works in the opposite direction tooWhich is why local anti-air uses extensible antenna or even arborists' gear and bucket lifts. Like a submarine, it's physically far easier to peek above the canopy and scan for threats/targets moving freely above than it is to try and localize those operating underneath. The forest is full of sensor noise, the sky isn't.
>>65392013Well directed arty fire helps with the not dying part, you know...
>>65391687>I learned that in the US the FO doesn't give orders to the fire-unit directly but instead the FO only gives targets to high commandThat is not correct.>we had to use radio'sNo shit. What the fuck else are you going to use? Hand signals? Flags? Telepathy? >can't hear anythingBullshit. That's a YOU problem. >sending textReally? You think sending a fucking text is faster than using your own voice? Idiot.>correcting is much slowerBullshit. It's the same shit for EVERY indirect fire system. Add or subtract range, adjust left or right of the gun line. Let me guess, you were taught to get one round long, one round short, and then half the distance until close enough? You don't need to do that if you know what the fuck your doing, and you obviously don't.You're an ignorant n00b that doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.
>>65391798They can't write. Imagine receiving a response like "ay who dis"
>scandinavian conscript who finished basic training 2 weeks ago telling us how much more elite he is than the american military episodenot a fan
>>65391838>Can you give me a rundown?Imagine uber but for artillery strikes. Guys put a point on a map and create an order, local other detachments can say "we are free at this moment and can do it", taking the order and executing it. A ton of retarded red tape gets flushed down the shitter, to where it belongs.
>>65392489just russian propaganda things
>>65391687Consider that the US just fought several wars where they had to keep extremely tight ROE because the enemy commonly hid among civilians. Within that context, having a higher-up weigh and approve each strike makes sense. Better a strike delayed or denied than a village full of civvies leveled
>>65392556>the US army can defeat every military it exercises with if they were really tryingAnd yet it can't defeat Iran lmao
>>65392160>Even the Russian military appears to be less corrupt when it comes to procurement.Only because you have no idea about how the russia/soviet system works.
>>65392457>the problem with the Finnish strategy is that it relies on the enemy moving into the fire zone exactly as Finland plansBecause russians have no other workable alternative
>>65393077The American military that is basically a welfare program for hispanics and blacks and is loosing YET AGAIN in the sandbox?
>>65393157put away your phone pekka, drill sergeant is gonna come take it away if you get caught
>>65391687>I learned that in the US the FO doesn't give orders to the fire-unit directly but instead the FO only gives targets to high command which then gives the actual command to fire.We call that a battle net, which is modern battlefield intelligence. Command's job is to choose the type of fire support options for the enemy you encounter. This isn't only limited to field artillery. As you might have known, warfare has changed from the last century; we have jets with bombs, guided missiles from ships, and helicopter QRF for targeted raids now. Reporting to command first is important for, logistics, strike package effectiveness, and battlefield awareness. The modern military isn't limited to big guns older than your mother anymore.Direct communication to the gun line from a field officer was before uniforms were camouflaged. The field officer which had control of the gun line didn't have control of the gun line's readiness because there was no line going to HQ for that support request. As you might have known, anyone that has fought in combat in the last 50 years doesn't actually do that anymore. The last thing anyone needs is the guns going silent while waiting on the ammunition.As you might know, NATO isn't a single nation, it's a military alliance. Withholding that information of enemy action from the alliance HQ will not help the operation, but also will scrutinize your nation's position in that alliance. The goal of NATO is to be combat ready against any aggression, and hiding information is not combat ready, and might as well be sabotage.The Forward Observer, as the job title says observes the enemy instead of attacking them. It's a pure information gathering role. The last thing you do is withhold that information for command and act alone on it.
>>65393173>The Forward Observer, as the job title says observes the enemy instead of attacking them. It's a pure information gathering role.You're as retarded as the dumb n00b Fin that started this stupid thread.
>>65391687>FO only gives targets to high command which then gives the actual command to fireIf you're controlling anyone bigger than the singular podunk mortar section you probably usually train with then you will not be talking directly with the firing FDC - much less directly with the gun crew. If you want to give the command to fire send it up as an AMC. Otherwise it defaults to a when-ready and at that point we can send it faster than you can speak it because once we receive the mission you turn into one extra mouth to yap to in the killchain that we only want to have to talk to when it's time to pass on the MTO and give the heads-up that rounds are leaving the tube. >>65393054>No shit. What the fuck else are you going to use? Hand signals? Flags? Telepathy?You can send text messages over radios anon. I have a laptop hooked up through one right now. Computer treats it like internet. And yes, it is faster. What's even faster is sending the mission down totally digitally over AFATDS or whatever other software might be in use but every human link in the killchain is paranoid and won't just be the mindless relay they were intended to be. Gotta sit there and verify every detail instead of trusting the controlling FDC crew to do their job.The "voice only" thing is an institutional training scar reinforced by CONUS safety standards and paranoid, overly controlling FDOs and FDC chiefs who want to be in the loop and feel in control at all times. Worthwhile to train because people turn into yammering morons really fast if they're not used to the script but when it's your default it slows things down considerably.
>>65393556>You can send text messages over radios anon.No shit, jackass, we've been able to do that for decades. You're not typing a fire mission request, OR corrections faster than you are saying them over the radio.Retards in this thread.
>>65391687You reckon we'll ever get to FOs integrated directly into smaller, independent mortar crews with observation drones?
Anyway if it makes you feel any better right now US army fires is in the middle of a once-in-a-generation overhaul and modernization drive that you won't see the fruits of at scale for the next five or so years. I think a lot of the bloated and cludged-together digital systems that only sorta talk to each other are going to get thrown out wholesale while we standardize on something new. Time will tell though. >>65391838>out job is to defend our own land?You're in NATO now. One day your job might be to go to war on someone else's behalf. The same people who say that reservists cannot be sent abroad are the same ones who can tear up that bit of legislation the first time it become inconvenient.
>>65393229>observes the enemy instead of attacking themartillery cuckold?!
>>65393580>No shit, jackass, we've been able to do that for decades. You're not typing a fire mission request, OR corrections faster than you are saying them over the radio.You are when they have to get sent through four layers of command channels. Send it dig and you basically are talking directly to the controlling FDC rather than their brigade or battalion because all the intermediaries have to do is glance at it and hit "send" If you're a 13F work with the Js sometime. You'll learn a lot.
>>65393601>You reckon we'll ever get to FOs integrated directly into smaller, independent mortar crews with observation drones?At that point the crews become their own observers again.
>>65393618Yes, have the team's drone man be both the FO and the FDC.
>>65393641You don't need an FDC with direct fire assets.
>>65392876>6km>on small antenna>in the woods>at 1.5w transmitwishful thinking
>>65391777>institutional complacency and knowledge rot.good way to sum up america
>>65391867>We shoot lots!>>Yeah but you could shoot less if you had better communication and accur->WE SHOOT LOTS!!!!!
>>65393602>The same people who say that reservists cannot be sent abroad are the same ones who can tear up that bit of legislation the first time it become inconvenient.We fucked over the Nazis when it became convenient for us and we will do it again
>>65392196seethe
>>65393137>>65392714they won't =/= they can'tthe only reason Iran isn't a smoking crater after being run over by Battle Force Zulu 2.0 is that Democrats refuse to commit to the Iran war in much the same way that Republicans refuse to commit to the Ukraine war
>>65392261End thread
>>65391687Wat. So in Finalnd they don't have FDCs? So who runs the math for the guns? The crew chief? Isn't he a bit busy with actually running the gun?Or does the FO double as the FDC? If so, aren't you a little bit busy doing spotting and not getting spotted/shot at to do the math? And how do you get a secondary check on situational awareness (i.e. if there are friendlies close to where you're calling in rounds)? This seems like a bad idea because it relies on the FO having knowledge of the state of the battle that we can't be sure they have.Or is it just that there's an FDC for each gun, on the gun line? If so, isn't that wildly inefficient when one FDC can do a platoon, or even a battery worth of fire missions?I really don't understand what you're implying. A gun crew cannot do anything with a grid or polar vector, they need a quadrant and deflection, and a bunch of other stuff depending on the mission.
>>65393908NTA and someone may correct me but each gun has its own positioning system and computer. The crew inserts the values. You can do this, yes. The observer alone calls and directs fire for up to full battery of 18 guns iirc and call a strike using all of them. Yes it is a lot of responsibility on a single pair of shoulders. But thats what you have to do in a total war against a vastly stronger enemy and when you dont have air force to smash everything.
>>65393229As you might have known, most online experts get their military experience in videogames. We call those people LARPers or Armatards. Somehow they have more knowledge and experience than everyone else that has an informed opinion on military organization and structure, despite being an infantry grunt for the whole game going at it alone like some action movie hero.
>>65393908I have no understanding of our artillery but Finnish doctrine is basically to assume that you don't have comms because comms lines have been destroyed, thus no complicated chain of command
>>65393003>Like a submarine, it's physically far easier to peek above the canopy and scan for threats/targets moving freely above than it is to try and localize those operating underneath.That's true, only in the drone age rare and cumbersome lifts are easy spottable targets themselves.What really curbs use of Ukrianian heavy drone bombers is profiliaration of drones interceptors Russians copied from Ukriane. These things is real danger to any expensive drones operations over frontline for both sides. You don't fight drones with outdated technology, you fight drones with drones and if you don't t have your drones you will end the a bad position.
>>65393908They have an equivalent but I don't know details. Probably no FDC below the battalion level though. Americans are pretty much the only ones who do that. >>65393919>each gun has its own positioning system and computer.Maybe in modern self-propelled units using Archer and shit (they're basically run like HIMARS - all automated, you just send a fire order) but over half of the Finnish artillery park is made up of ancient soviet howizters. Junior officer in the reserves was telling me about his job as the battery surveyor and how he had to calculate gun grids the old fashioned way (a map and a theodolite) because they don't have access to encrypted GPS while his primary means of communication was a private with a spool of telephone wire on his back.
>>65393973We dont have Archers though. Yeah GPS jamming is real so its not relied on. Theres inertial positioning instead, including for those ancient 122s, and old skills are trained and practiced of course
>>65392429hej pekkawhat are you replacing your sissi tents with desu? dispersed sleeping bags, bivacs? here in sweden we still have them, or at least a couple of years ago when i was in.
>>65394000ps. wire comms rock. They cant be jammed and the enemy wont be listening. I dont get how after 5 fucking years of war russia still hasnt built wired comms but relies on alibaba radios and starlink
>>65393973Damn, thats some ancient way of doing things. Ive been a section chief for a long time, and over 15+ years in total, we have been using various generations of digital fire control on our guns for over 30 years now, I thought you finns were better funded than this.
>>65394006>ps. wire comms rockUntil you need to run with wire spool over fields and killer drones are buzzing over you.
>>65393973>and how he had to calculate gun grids the old fashioned way (a map and a theodolite)Why do nobody make Android app for geolocation using map reference points?
>>65394023Look at the photo above. Thats a digital fire controller on a 122 mm D-30 (122H63)
>>65394023It's one half a matter of funds and one half expecting an apocalyptic war where you're back to ancient methods from day 1
>>65394030Missed that, I recognize that tablet.Looks like the same setup we had back when the IDF was still using its M71 towed guns and before the M109s went full digital. I still trained on those sights. >>65394006Can confirm, its the most robust and reliable method of comms out there.>>65394026Same reason we measure muzzle velocity, charge temperature, air pressure and humidity, barrel diameter, charge series velocity and use 6 digit coordinates instead of 5. we try to remove as many variables as possible as accurately as possible, and a phone camera isnt accurate enough.
>>65394043True to an extent, having manual backups is important. but my own personal experience shows that digital systems are surprisingly robust IF implemented correctly and you usually can end up working your way around problems.
>>65391687Im not suprised at all that NATO integration means making everything worse. Integrating white 105 iq conscript military to 90 iq mexican mercenary force
>>65394024Just deploy the wire with a drone
>>65391862The difference is that Finnish conscripts come from the whole age group unlike in the US where enlisted are made of mostly bottom of the barrell mouthbreathers.
>>65394059It's not like you guys have to worry about enemy air superiority
>>65392125Why not ignore the retards?Clearly a specific military thread with high effort posters, then some US v EU fag comes over, or some smartass goes "durr, I'll shit up the thread about a topic I don't care because F35"Fuck em
>>65392261Thanks
>>65391816Nice D&C attempt ziggercreature,
>>65392103Americans who went to ukraine shit their pants the moment there wasn’t any on-demand air support to wipe their shit-stained underwear lmao.
>WW3 happens>Finland gets invaded>Frederik, Olav and Johan are sent to Finland to help defence>After defending the trenches for the day they have to listen the rest of the evening to Pekka go into autistic mode about artillery kill-chains while drones are flying overheadLooking forward to it
>>65392075This could be a decent copypasta
>>65392159Then again, those Finns were in Leningrad getting wasted on the weekend on cheap slav vodka, not actively in a warzone.
>>65393157It do be like that
>>65392545>be me, norwegian>come across a bog just like this while out chasing mushrooms innawoodsIt was not pleasant crossing it with just a basket for my mushrooms and wellingtons. Crossing it in any kind of gear is I suspect, borderline suicidal.
>>65393886>they won't =/= they can'tPractice is the sole criterion for testing truth, my brown friend. If you could, you would've. It's the same issue with retards buying a gun, but not having the will/guts to actually shoot the nigger who's attacking them. At that point having the gun and being able to shoot the nigger from the theoretical standpoint doesn't matter.
>>65393973>Maybe in modern self-propelled units using Archer and shit (they're basically run like HIMARS - all automated, you just send a fire order) but over half of the Finnish artillery park is made up of ancient soviet howiztersBruh, an app on a phone can be your ballistic computer for artillery
>>65393660>direct fire assetsSo it becomes direct fire if you have line of sight through a drone with a grid overlay and one man does observation and correction on the spot?
>>65391777>an afterthought here that hasn't been given serious resources or doctrinal attention since the 1980sIf you really think that then you have a very poor understanding of the US Army, both in the 1980s and now. The degree of automation at both the observer level and FDC, decentralization of Corp/Division level assets to the Brigade level, the integration of UAS, the commonality of ICM/DPICM, Excalibur & PGK turning artillery into a precision weapon. Fuck, just how easy it is now to talk & coordinate with the USAF now compared to the 1980s.FM 3-09 Fire Support and Field Artillery Operationshttps://www.revista-artilharia.pt/admin/upload/ficheiros/ficheirosMultimedia/fm-3-09-fire-support-and-field-artillery-operations.pdfJP 3-09 Joint Fire Support is available for free online, read it: https://api.army.mil/e2/c/downloads/361884.pdfSome good reads on Army artillery modernizationhttps://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Research-and-Books/Archives/2018/PDF/April-2018-ArtilleryStrong.pdfhttps://history.army.mil/portals/143/Images/Publications/catalog/69-5-1.pdf
>>65394371>Iran is based and stronk and if you don't agree YOU'RE BROWN NOT ME!!*gachimuchi intensifies*
>>65394387>t. hah I am bleeding making me the winner
ITT:- OP fails to understand that NATO standard is not "the way Americans do it" but the lowest common denominator interoperability standard in case he would ever need to request fires from a Slovak mortar battery over Romanian-run radio network.- Some burger mad that a 5.6 million poorfag country completely covered in either forest, swamp or lake plans to counter cheap russkie conscript masses with cheap arty spam instead of calling a gorrillion F-35 sorties to Hellfire every single one of them.
>>65394413Why doesn't US call a gorrillion F-35 sorties to Hellfire every single nigger in Iran?
>>65394413They're not poorfags by any standard. Beside, Finland is one of the few countries in Europe that didn't abandon military tradition and training post Cold War.
>>65394424Expensive
>>65394262>Dont suck off conscripts = zigger ???
Why does every /k/ thread devolve into geopolitical shitflinging these days
>>65394437Americans became insecure because of Trump fucking up his attack on Iran
>>65394437this one has a basis in reality though - the finnish situation is such that they don't have planes (because they're small or poor or whatever) and have large swathes of empty forest, which enables an artillery doctrine of decentralization. if private mika the fo had to figure out max ord and lateral limits for restrictive airspace features while sitting in a trench under fire you would see fire clearance done at co/bn/bde level. if private mika the fo had to worry about talking on rotor wing in his ao you would see fire clearance done at co/bn/bde. etc etc. the only thing private mika the fo has to worry about is his dick and yeeting a battery 4 at some woodline where conscriptovich pidorashka may or may not be drunkenly stumbling around.or russian shills idk, they hate the finns they might be here
>>65394413Very apt summary
>>65394437fun things are funwell at least for some of usdid you know that the CDC has confirmed that two burger have shat themselves to death
>>65394446Somehow Finland still has iirc 2nd most fighter planes/capita only behind Israel
>>65394465Hmmm and maybe US
>>65394376>Aren't Really Marines Yet trying to be relevant lol
Finland has always been about artillery domination. I believe the biggest reason to finnish success in the winter and continuation war was that they were pretty much the most accurate artillerists in Europe. Standard procedure on an assault was always to snipe the enemy position with artillery first and then charge.
>>65394374>Bruh, an app on a phone can be your ballistic computer for artilleryYou think the same people that want to totally rely on wired comms and analog position finding threw out their firing charts and slide rules?
>>65391687The FO is just as likely to be freaking the fuck out as the rest of the people he's with getting shot at. Do you seriously think it's a good idea for the gun team just go "hokey dokey" and drop fire on where the FO says? With no oversite? Officers are benine weirdos but they exist for a reason, they'll know if the gridf you send is a likely NAI or if it's your own grid and you mixed it up because you just got shot and started screaming into a radio. Retard.
>>65394598Our training involves intentional sleep deprivation and our officers doing everything in their power to stress us out while we give our commands in order to weed out the panickers. I remember one female FO-NCO in our battery that did very well but that got weeded out in the very end of her service when our hardest trainer managed to get her to break down.This system has worked well enough in our past wars. If you can't trust a FO to give fire commands then you also can't trust them to give fire suggestions and the direct way of going about this means that the staff officers can do their actual jobs instead of having their hands full with babysitting and micromanagement
>>65394598Also this is yet another reason why you should send text via radio instead of giving the commands via speech
>>65392759the Ardennes was inhabited rough ground 90+% of Finland is uninhabited rough ground there's a major difference between the two, the biggest being a much more developed road and rail network
>>65392461you dont even rule the nigger shit in your slums. come back when you've convincingly beat iran
>>65394437Who is Bono? Finns and Americans have always been bro-tier especially in /k/.
>>65394623Maybe its a Cav scout thing, we didn't trust our fister because he a was brand new 18 yo. My Styker commander gave all the fire commands and called everything in because he was autistically good at it. I'm just saying, you should have someone double checking shit before you throw 155mm at it. If you want platoon level indirect thats what the mortar truck is for
>>65392125America had a king and goddamnit we shall restore his throne.
>>65392276Dumb question but why does that have street tires and not all terrains? It already looks lifted in case it has to go off road
>>65392201Is this the cope about training situations put "americans in losing situations" when really it just is about how the contestants are put in peer situations rather than allowing the Americans to have 10x the military size than any other contestants?
>>65394731Typically howitzers are only used as a part of preplanned fires whereas mortars are something we can direct at something unexpected. When it comes to MLRS we only really use them as operational assets that receive their targets from drones, satellites or very deep recon teams. Airstrikes are only used at strategic assets like bridges. We don't have the luxury of double checking everything since we would be fighting a defensive total war. The staff officers would be too preoccupied with directing assets at enemy helicopter assaults and flanking mechanized companies to do much else. Also there is the problem of Russia bombing our comms and command posts. If we were reliant on a middleman to order our fires for us then we would be pretty screwed if we couldn't communicate with said middlemen. By doing things directly we also have more redundancy, all we need is a radio and we can continue the mission even if half of us get killed, and a single company has 3 platoons each with their own FO teams, and the company has 2 seperate FO teams on top of this. You have the luxury of doing things your way since Taliban equivalents don't have access to artillery batteries, glide bombs and ballistic missiles.
>>65394800So do your howitzer crews train not just to operate the guns but also compute their own firing data with no secondary check to verify it? Who does their manual computations? >>65394598Finns have been shooting at the same patch of dirt and firing their guns from the same preplanned positions for the better part of 80 years now. After a point the old heads probably know what the grids and data should look like from memory. Happens like that in the guard. It's not a good thing, either. Makes them totally inflexible and neglects core skills when they get complacent like that. You will not fight a war from your TA.
>>65394800>Also there is the problem of Russia bombing our comms and command postsIt's fascinating that the Finns built their doctrine with the assumption that the alleged Russia can find let alone disrupt dispersed comms but after the Ukraine fiasco it is very apparent that they have no such capability in general. The FDF planners must be very meticulous and down to earth guys.
>>65393922>We call those people LARPers or Armatards>ArmatardsHello newfriend
>>65394869>So do your howitzer crews train not just to operate the guns but also compute their own firing data with no secondary check to verify it? Who does their manual computations? At least mortars have their own NCOs that do the calculations, AMOS and K9s do it with their own digital systems. I don't know how the other howitzers do it but at least the semi-towed K 98s have their computers to do the calculations automatically. Like I said I'm only an assistant to a dedicated platoon FO.>Finns have been shooting at the same patch of dirt and firing their guns from the same preplanned positions for the better part of 80 years nowIt's not like we have have a scroll of points to fire at that dates decades. Whenever we go to a new position we set up a OP and start making targets based on recognizable features such as crossroads, houses, foremost entrenchments etc. When attacking often use POLAR for 81mms to fire 200 meters from our position since the vegetation is so dense that you topically only make contact at those distances.The only positions that have permanent targets would be airfields, areas suitable for landing VDV, bridges and choke points near the border.
>>65394967>At least mortars have their own NCOs that do the calculationsYeah that's more or less how mortars work everywhere. Mortars are what they train new FOs on first because they're the simplest to deal with. >AMOS and K9s do it with their own digital systemsSo do 777s/119s and Paladins but part of maintaining manual capability in-doctrine is they still have to verify data with their controlling FDC. Running totally dig it's just a matter of asking them what their computer got for a dry mission during setup and checking it with what your computer got. Then you just send direct no verbal required. Meanwhile voice fire commands are (doctrinally) given by reading out the guns' firing data rather than sending them a grid. Rockets are different - those you do just send the fire order. But they can't do polar or anything (individual launchers don't have a means to battle track observer locations) so that still needs to be translated into a grid mission by someone else. If we ever truly modernize our artillery systems to something akin to Archer then cannons will be directed exactly the same. Manual computations gone, out the window, forgotten forever - just pass on a fire order and be done.
Hakkaa päälle Pohjan poika!
>>65393077finland isn't scandinaviant. finn
>>65393922>Weyou don't belong here, newfag
>>65394413You are correct but your formatting screams leddit.>learn>to>use>these>faggot>there’s also a 50/50 chance that the “mad burger” is a paid, brown, jeet, shill for pozzia
>>65391777>>65391798Yes, we are all incompetent and stupid, you should think little of us and probably stop using american products and services as revenge!
>>65391947You didn't just move the goalposts you shipped them to another continent.
>>65392084US troops train with europeans for their benefit, not the US's.
>>65392338You would have to actually participate in some combat to make that claim, sorry.
I trained my entire company of retards to do a fire mission using scale models, radios, different targets, compass, binos and protractorbut I would absolutely not trust 80% of those fuckers to not drop it on our own heads instead. Thank god it goes to someone else (FDC?) before it hits the battery
>>65396508Why yes, we have a lot to learn from Muttlands arctic training.
>>65392457>the problem with the Finnish strategy is that it relies on the enemy moving into the fire zoneOkay, now look up who's on the other side of the border and read about their military doctrine.
I did my military service in artillery, being one of the guys operating a 122mm howitzer (our variant of D-30). My main motivation for choosing this branch was my uneducated assumption that arty crews being far from frontline equals high chance of survival.What have the casualty rates been for howitzer crews in Ukraine?
>>65396638Towed guns only exist to cripple their crews their crews in peacetime and get them killed in wartimeGo rockets, you'll have more fun.
>>65396638>Ukraine according to Oryx285 - towed artillery890 - self-propelled artillery124 - MLRS>Russia according to Oryx565 - towed artillery1023 - self-propelled artillery609 - MLRS
>>65396638Still a safer job than infantry.
>>65396646Guess I'll die or become a cripple if war happens
>>65392667>>Also we have wartime laws that gives the military the right to take any civilian vehicle that could be of use to them.My Summer Car: Russian Invasion Edition
>>65396638I'd imagine the terrain provides a lot more concealment opportunities compared to ukraine.
>>65393757>>institutional complacency and knowledge rot.>good way to sum up americaIf you think its bad in America you should see Sweden. Our armed forces primary mission is to march in the parade held during our annual Butt Fucking Festival. Our equvivalent to the joint chiefs march up front. The finns called us homos so many times that a curse took hold.
>>65392000TUKOM 34VEP 7561 7250 130 16-50 850 AM34VEP 7561 7250 130 = The target's grid coordinates and its elevation.16-50 850 = Observer-to-target direction in mils and distance in metres. This information is required for any subsequent fire corrections so that the firing unit can interpret the corrections from the forward observer's perspective relative to the firing direction.AM = Fire. The firing unit fires a single round, meaning that each gun or mortar in the supporting firing unit fires one shell simultaneously as a salvo.Once the initial ranging round has been fired, any errors are corrected before transitioning to fire for effect.Example of a correction and transition to fire for effect:TUKOM V 150 L 100 4 KE AMTUKOM = Fire mission.V 150 = Left 150, meaning the rounds impacted 150 mils too far to the right relative to the observer's line of sight. The fire is therefore corrected 150 mils to the left. Direction corrections are:V = LeftO = RightFor example, O 200 means Right 200 (mils).L 100 = Add 100If the rounds had instead fallen short of the target, the command would be J 100, meaning Drop 1004 KE = Four rounds for effect, meaning that after applying the corrections, each gun or mortar fires four consecutive rounds.AM = Fire.
>>65397598Types and Methods of Fire1–12 RoundsThe first round is fired as a salvo, with the remaining rounds fired at rapid rate.Fire command task modifier: 4 KE(Example: 4 KE = four rounds; first round as a salvo, remaining three at rapid rate.)Salvo at IntervalsEach battery fires a salvo, with successive batteries firing 30 seconds apart.Fire command task modifier: KEVÄAISequential FireEach gun in the battalion fires one round in numerical order at prescribed time intervals.This method is well suited for harassing fire.Fire command task modifier: VU 20 S(Example: VU 20 S = sequential fire, one gun every 20 seconds.)StrikeFire 0.1 basic ammunition allocation onto a 100 × 100 metre target area.The first and last rounds are fired as salvos, with all intervening rounds fired at rapid rate. The entire mission lasts exactly 60 seconds.For example, an 18-gun light artillery battalion delivers 108 shells onto the target area in one minute.This fire method is generally used during offensive operations.Fire command task modifier: ISCoverSimilar to Strike, but fired onto a 100 × 300 metre target area.Typically used, for example, in counter-preparation fire.The fire command must include the orientation (axis) of the beaten zone, specified to the nearest 100 mils.Fire command task modifier: PE07BarrierA fire mission used when the tactical situation becomes critical.Fire 0.2 basic ammunition allocation at rapid rate onto a 100 × 300 metre target area.For a light artillery battalion, this amounts to 216 shells, fired as quickly as the gun crews can load and fire them.As with Cover, the orientation of the barrier must be specified in the fire command.Fire command task modifier: ES31
>>65397598>16-50 850 = Observer-to-target direction in mils and distance in metresNot in mils. The older method and our current instruments divide the circle into 6000 parts, whereas mils divide the circle into 6400 parts. Whenever we use the new method with the old instruments we always multiply the results by 1,06666... before giving them to the fireunits.t. OP
>>65398118Yeah I was going to ask - the two digits with invisible 00's behind them is textbook warsaw pact. Same for using "ammunition allocation" rather than asking for a Battery 6 or a Battalion 3 or whatever.
>>65392013Lol. Not the ukes. They've got their drones down to a science by now. I see no Fat-35s bombing Muscow. No other country in history has ever used drones for pure strategic bombing. Until then, sit down and let the experts do the talking. You're 6 (SIX) months into your own 3-day special Iranian operations too.
>>65398524the Soviet system is more rationalsome grunt in a trench needs a given volume of fire in such and such a pattern NOW, he does not need to clutter his little brain with details like where it's going to come fromstandard units of fire also make logistics planning and operational control much simpler
>>653981186000 milirads was the soviet standard, 6400 is the NATO one.
>>65399078>muh drones>muh iran>reee americans fucked my mom, sister and girlfriend(pending)get new material jeet
>>65399078>They've got their drones down to a science by nowuhuhwhich is why they're using missiles to hit Moscow and not dronesand still totally dependent on US ISR, instead of using their independent drone strike kill-chain
>>65399965So what is the dividing line between a drone and a missile? Is a cessna loaded with explosives and flying a pre defined gps route with automated target selection a drone or a cruise missile?
>>65400219>dividing line between a drone and a missile?good questionat this point, the only major cost driver and point of differentiation left is merely the enginethe Flamingo FP-5 is actually a missile, as it uses a turbofan, as compared to the likes of the Shaheeds or Ukrainian Bullets which are propeller-driven
>>65399078People from nations who cant produce their own end to end kill chain should really think before posting shit like this.
>>65399965Moscow refinery and Wildberries warehouse were hit by drones. Flamingo missile aren't used on Moscow. Probably because of high contention of air defenses. Ukrianians apparently need to launch hundreds of drones to penetrate to Moscow targets. Low numbers Flamingo missiles can't touch Moscow.Ukrianians use flamingo missles in regions with less of AD, against targets drones can't damage. Like hard reinforced concrete buildings of factories and Soviet era research institutes.Drones go for softer targets like feul tanks and Wildberries storehouses with walls and roof made from sheet metal. Also refinery columns, when they are hard steel tubes, shaped charge can pen them and even small hole in hundred bars pressure vehicle takes it out of action. Small shaped charge hole in a building achives nothing.
>>65400254Iran can't, but they have no problems with buying in China Texas instruments chips to bomb Americans. And there is nothing you can do about that, sanctions failed because of the China world factory.
>>65400273>sanctions failed because of the China world factory.yeah I agreeI'm ethinic chinese and I believe we should have dropped Iron Curtain 2.0 on China and the turd world decades ago
>>65394894>It's fascinating that the Finns built their doctrine with the assumption that the alleged Russia can find let alone disrupt dispersed comms but after the Ukraine fiasco it is very apparent that they have no such capability in general. It's prudent to plan for the worst possible scenario when your existence as a nation is at stake.
>>65400520It's ALWAYS prudent to plan for the worst possible scenario; it's right there in the army manual even: you should also plan for the enemy's MDCOA, Most Damaging Course Of Action, i.e. what could the enemy do that would fuck you up the most
>>65393931Finnish doctrine is that>we're out gunned>we don't have enough money>we have to fight alone ("for those that are here after us, stand here on your own and do not rely on foreing aid.")>comms are jammed all the time>air alert is all the time>enemy tanks are on every road>the cossacks are on their way to burn and pillage ostrobothnia>there will be nukes, gas and biological weapons>enemy will do air drops behind lines>enemy will do landings on the coast>everything will be mined>everyhting must be dispersed>everything must be dug into ground>you will never have enough supplies>you will never have enough vehicles>you will never get enough gear at the mobilization pointBut you will fight. The military passport has said the last 100 years that you must bring anything useful from home that you might need, because the army cannot give you everything.The real "grab SKS and go innawoods" doctrine.
>>65392046Basics and fundamentals are important, doubly so when operating across multiple services and even languages. That said, yes, NATO needs to figure this stuff out and train for it, because multiple member nations are already using variations of it.
>>65399858You lost, burger
>>65401848>But you will fight. The military passport has said the last 100 years that you must bring anything useful from home that you might need, because the army cannot give you everything.>arrive a moblization point>dragging the huge wooden penis me and my buddies carved during conscription >get asked what for>make the russians feel at home after they surrender (no lube)
>>65402758>it's not about the penetration, it's about sending a message
>>65396149What I was writing didn't warrant the use of greentext IMO.Also>ledditNever heard about her. Is she hot?
