Aren't they almost the same aircraft?>Delta cope>Canards>Twin engine>unit cost higher than F-35Dassault should have joined the eurocope development and saved themselves some cash.
>>65430998>Aren't they almost the same aircraft?Yes.>Dassault should have joined the eurocope development and saved themselves some cash.They're culturally incapable of cooperation.
>>65430998>Dassault should have joined the eurocope development and saved themselves some cashLook at what happened with the recent joint german-french stealth 6th gen program, and answer that question again. The French are extremely egotistical, and insist on being the principal contractor in most shit they are involved in. They routinely crash whole programs if they dont get their way.
>>65430998>Dassault should have joined the eurocope development and saved themselves some cash. The frogs needed a carrier capable aircraft. The Eurofighter consortium specifically ruled out carrier reinforcements for the fuselage, since nobody else used carriers (no, the bongs didn't use carriers, those were glorified assault transports with a rämp). All the other countries wanted the Typhoon as a replacement for their aging Tornadoes. The frogs straight-up had no choice but go alone.
>>65431030Just create a variant like the F-35.
>>65431038That variant would be essentially wholly funded by the French, at that point why not make a whole new airframe? The Rafale is cool because it is one of the 'other ones', there are plenty of twin engined fighters, but the French made their own. It is cool, and does help French industries be and stay independent. Regardless of how important their contribution to the global defense market may be.
>>65430998no, rafale is demonstrably worse because it has to have trade offs to make sure it's still carrier capable.Eurofighter being a land based fighter doesn't have to make the same trade offs.
>>65430998>unit cost higher than F-35only if you bend the knee.
>>65430998The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35, Su-57 and J-20 as a fifth generation fighter. Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen. That is why many countries, such as India, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE which have requested F-35s or were looking at other fifth gen options like the Su-75 and KF-21, are now Rafale users.The Eurofag Typhoon meanwhile remains a 4-4.5 generation aircraft with no further development potential, and the countries who are using it primarily (UK, Italy, Spain etc) are all F-35 users and have no incentive to develop it further.If the Rafale was made by a non-NATO country, they would call it 5th gen.
>>65433854Impressionnant.
>>65430998The Rafale has its joystick on the right not the middle of the cockpit like a retard
>>65433854>other fifth gen options like the Su-75
>>65433854>Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen.At least the KF-21 has a clear pathway to 5th gen.Rafale doesn't and is just pretending.KF-21 has space for an IWB, rafale doesn't.KF-21's airframe was designed to be low observable, and with RAM coatings, actually stealthy. Rafale isn't a low observable airframe, has no clear ability to be converted into one, and even if you did give it RAM coatings, the external munitions and airframe shape make any RCS reduction minimal.Etc, etc.
>>65433854>when you can smell a post, and it smells of cheese
>>65430998>Dassault should have joined the eurocope development and saved themselves some cash.They did. They left because the Eurofighter program was a shitshow.
>>65433854>The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35, Su-57 and J-20 as a fifth generation fighter.It's the equal of the Su-57 and J-20. The F-35 is an actual fifth gen.
>>65434311Honestly, i'd argue it's worse than both the J-20 and Su-57.At least they have IWBs and airframes designed for low observability from the start, even if the execution (especially on the Su-57) is dog shit. I'll still take a 7/10 or 8/10 quality manufactured low observable 5th gen airframe over a 10/10 quality 4.5th gen airframe.
>>65434321The IWB alone isn't that big of a deal, as we can see from the F-35 with external weapons having a lower RCS than a clean Su-57. I would happily peg the peak of European aircraft manufacturing (Rafale and Typhoon) in above some temu cope plane with implessive moving doors. None of them are stealth, but at least we can be sure that the European aircraft perform as advertised.
>>65434349F-35 has some of the most advanced RAM on the planet, something france doesn't have.But sure, you can cope if you want.
>>65434378That should increase the differential between a clean and fully loaded configuration, not reduce it. The fact of the matter is that the only distinguishing feature of the Su-57 and J-20 are a half-assed attempt to copy a surface level feature of the F-35. The US is the only country in the world with a fifth gen fighter in service. I see no reason to rank the chink 4.5g fighter over the European 4.5gens.
>>65434431Saying RAM >increases the differentialmisses how radar cross-section works; RCS is logarithmic, not linear. An F-35 with external stores has an RCS around 0.1–0.5 m^2, whereas a loaded Rafale is 5 to 10 m^2. Advanced RAM on the F-35 actually keeps that loaded RCS dramatically lower than it would be on a non-LO airframe because the base fuselage continues to absorb radar energy.An Internal Weapons Bay isn't a surface-level feature; it's an absolute prerequisite for 5th-gen performance. It allows an aircraft to fly supersonic and maneuver without exposing right-angled corner reflectors and high-RCS metal missiles to enemy radar. Every major intelligence agency and serious defense analyst classifies the J-20 as a 5th-generation fighter. It has DSI intakes, full planform edge alignment, internal weapon bays, and sensor fusion. Disliking a country's politics or resorting to slurs doesn't magically alter the physics of radar reflection.Trying to pretend Rafale is more stealthy because it's not Chinese/Russian just makes you look like you have no idea what you're actually talking about from a technical angle and are just a nationalistic moron thumping your chest.
>>65434446>I put fancy moving doors on my temu 4.5 gen so now it's a fifth genNo it's not. Fuck off, chang.>Trying to pretend Rafale is more stealthyI'm not. I'm saying that neither the Rafale nor the J-20 is stealth, but we can at least be reasonably certain that the Rafale works.
>>65434455>No it's not. Fuck off, chang.Lol no, just because you're a euro doesn't make the Rafale = to a J-20.Seriously, i'm american, I just clearly know more about how this shit works at a base level without nationalism bullshit coloring your opinion.You can't get beyond "CHINK = SHIT" and that's where your brain stops functioning.
LOL there no proof the j20 is anything but a gen4.
>>65434510Anon, you're literally just retarded, you post that same image as if it means something HORRIBLE and OBVIOUS that you can see and should be self evident to anyone, but that image doesn't show anything of value.You're just retarded and don't know what you're looking at.
>>65434459Remember like three months ago when Xi had to gulag everyone in charge of the J-20 and JY-27 programs? They claimed that their "anti-stealth" radar could detect F-22s at absurd ranges because it could detect the J-20 that's supposedly as stealthy as the F-22. It turns out that it can detect the J-20 because it's not stealth, but it can't detect the F-22 at any meaningful range because it is stealth.>An Internal Weapons Bay isn't a surface-level feature; it's an absolute prerequisite for 5th-gen performance. It allows an aircraft to fly supersonic and maneuver without exposing right-angled corner reflectors and high-RCS metal missiles to enemy radar. Apparently it is just a surface level feature because RAM will just magically absorb the radar reflections from the missiles. China wouldn't need fancy moving doors if they had invented RAM.
>>65430998>Dassault should have joined the eurocope development and saved themselves some cash.>Dassault should have joined the trainwreck that is the eurofail program instead of the money printing machine rafaleRetard
>>65434558Lmao, your entire reply is inverse engineering logic.If RAM made external missiles invisible, why does the F-35 have an internal weapons bay? Designing high-speed, low-observable bay doors that open at Mach 1.5 is immensely harder to engineer than applying RAM. The US, China, and Russia all use internal bays because no RAM on earth can absorb the massive corner-reflector radar spike created by external pylons and metal missiles. Just because the F-35's RAM makes external munitions less of an RCS problem than on a 4th gen airframe doesn't make the IWB pointless, nor does it make the RAM the only thing that matters. Also, you're confusing VHF radar resonance with X-band stealth. Low-frequency anti-stealth radars like the JY-27 operate on wavelengths that cause physical resonance against the airframe surfaces of all stealth aircraft; F-22, F-35, and J-20 alike. It provides early warning track areas, not fire-control missile locks. Stealth airframes are shaped specifically to defeat high-frequency X-band fire-control radars. And finally, the J-20 purges were because the people in charge of the program lied to Xi, because he wanted/expected unrealistic/impossible performance from the J-20. And the J-20 leaders knew the only option was to lie and hope it wouldn't get found out, or that they'd manage to bridge the performance gap enough by the time the lies came out that it wouldn't be a huge deal.They were wrong this time.That doesn't magically mean the J-20 isn't a 5th gen fighter. It just means they lied about it being able to beat an F-22, which again, isn't a requirment for 5th gen as the F-35 ALSO loses in a dogfight against an F-22.
>>65434594>F-35 ALSO loses in a dogfight against an F-22.Does it? It's slower, sure, but it is substantially ahead in passive sensors (which comes in handy if you don't want to give away your position) and, if you make it a 10 vs 10 instead of 1 vs 1, data sharing. The F-22 ain't outrunning a missile at distances where they can actually spot each other, either.The F-35s lack of internally carried IR missiles would be a concern, but it turns out that its datalink capabilities can take care of that problem just fine.I'm just not seeing the F-22 being ahead where it counts. Only in the meme categories the Russians are so proud of.And I'm pretty sure that's the reason F-22 production ended. The F-35 isn't the low of a hi/low fleet like the F-16 was. It's just the next step forward.
>>65434654Sorry, but you're just flat wrong.You're confusing a multi-role strike fighter with a dedicated air superiority interceptor, and completely rewriting the history of why F-22 production ended.The F-22 supercruises above Mach 1.8 at 60,000+ feet without afterburners. Launching an AIM-120D or AIM-260 from that altitude and speed gives the missile drastically more kinetic energy and range than an F-35 launching at Mach 1.2 at 35,000 feet. In BVR (Beyond Visual Range) combat against LO targets, altitude and speed determine who fires first and whose missile reaches further.The decision to cap the F-22 at 187 airframes during the height of the Iraq/Afghanistan counter-insurgency wars because the Pentagon judged air-to-air peer conflict unlikely at the time: a decision universally regarded by USAF leadership today as a massive strategic error.The Air Force treats the F-22 as its premier air-dominance asset and is developing the 6th-gen NGAD specifically to replace the Raptor's air superiority role, while the F-35 handles the strike/multi-role volume.Even in 1v1 BFM training exercises, the F-22 consistently dominates the F-35.The Raptor's thrust-vectoring, higher thrust-to-weight ratio, Mach 2.2 speed, and 360-degree stealth geometry give it a massive kinematic advantage in visual and medium ranges. While the F-35 can occasionally trade kills using its helmet-mounted sight to fire off-boresight AIM-9X missiles without pointing its nose, the F-22's raw maneuverability and dedicated air-superiority pilot training win out the vast majority of the time.tldr; the USAF doctrine and training history proves you're wrong, and their current active development efforts to replace the F-22 with an even higher end version, not another F-35, should tell you everything you need to know.
>>65434690>>65434654Oh yeah, something I forgot to touch on, the F-22 is actively getting IRST and other passive sensors added that bring it up to par, or beyond current F-35 capability.
>>65434594>If RAM made external missiles invisible, why does the F-35 have an internal weapons bay?Obviously it doesn't, I was making fun of you for your dumbass claim that mounting external weapons on an F-35 increases its RCS by less than mounting external weapons on a Rafale because it has magical RAM that absorbs the radar reflections from the missiles.>Low-frequency anti-stealth radars like the JY-27 operate on wavelengths that cause physical resonance against the airframe surfaces of all stealth aircraft; F-22, F-35, and J-20 alike.Except it doesn't, the F-22 and F-35 have broad spectrum stealth with low observability across the radar spectrum. The Chinese did some studies in the 90s and concluded that designing stealth aircraft that way would be very difficult (it is) and therefore they wouldn't bother with it and no one else would either (ror, rmao), and now we're in the present day where American aircraft are for all intents and purposes invisible to Chinese sensors, and the pinnacle of Chinese engineering has reduced observability only in one specific radar band that doesn't even encompass all American fire controls, much less early warning systems.>the J-20 purges were because the people in charge of the program lied to Xi, because he wanted/expected unrealistic/impossible performance from the J-20.Yes, he wanted impossible performance like having the same level of stealth characteristics as the F-22 without costing as much as the F-22. Of course that's impossible, because as much as you terminally brown thirdies pretend otherwise, the American MIC spends billions upon billions of dollars on developing the world's most advanced systems and making them work, not on yachts with Scrooge McDuck moneypits for every day of the week.
>>65434558>it can detect the J-20 because it's not stealth>it can't detect the F-22 at any meaningful range because it is stealthunbelievably good analysis anon, well done
>>65434764>Americans spend an obscene amount of money on reducing every aspect of their aircraft's electromagnetic signature>Chinese go for the 60% of low hanging fruit and lie about the rest, and justify it by claiming the Americans must have done the same thing and pocketed the difference>When put to the test, Chinese hardware is useless against American aircraft because the assumptions it was based on were all lies
>>65430998>Dassault should have joined the eurocope development and saved themselves some cash.Isn't that how the Rafale came to be? The frogs were unable to cooperate due to their ego (as usual) and split off, using whatever tech they managed to scrounge together from their brief time in the eurofighter program to build the Rafale.
>>65433854>meanwhile in reality>germany received the first tranche 5 eurofighter that flies circles around the ugly clit sticking out rafagle
>>65433854Eurofighter has a somewhat clear pathway forward too, at least in pure technical capability that has been shown.The current EJ200 is severely limited, but Rolls Royce's E2SG program which is being integrated in the GCAP engine, if backported to the EJ200 core could allow for a LOT more electrical power extraction to run AI/MUM-T, electronic warfare, more powerful radar, etc.Rolls Royce has also shown 3D printed cooling tiles in the Pearl10X engine and they're using those for the GCAP engine too, if they backport those to the EJ200 that could allow the core to run 100-200 degrees hotter than it currently does. Another 100-200 degrees on the EJ200 + more efficient electrical power extraction gives you a very potent upgrade that likely surpasses Rafale F5 capability with the M88 TREX.
When people start talking about jet engines on /k/, I can't tell when they are bullshitting or not.
>>65435076>making fun of is now seething to chinkskek
>>65430998>Dassault should have joined the eurocope developmentFCAS says hi. Frogs are incapable of working with others.
>>65435076I'm sure the chinks say so, yes
>>65435107 Same happened to us Spain with navantia and their shipyards. They fucked us over with the scorpene and they allied with Morocco during the perejil situation, so we splitter and made our own. S-80+ despite what you read in the internet, if you spend a bit reading about it, it's the best non nuclear ocean submarine, and that happened thanks to leaving France
>>65430998>>65431030Nah, Gripen is the better cannard delta wing fighter.
>>65434431There are a bunch of nato countries with operational f35s dude
>>65430998>DeltaMany advantage to this design, everyone is going for it.>CanardsSame as above, not even much impact on stealth.>Twin engineIncrease reliability>F35 unit costThe maintenance costs are skyrocketing when the fighter itself is grounded with only a 25% readiness.https://www.thedefensenews.com/F-35-Fleet-Readiness-Falls-to-25-Amid-Parts-Shortages-and-Software-Delays-GAO-Report/The Rafale flight readiness is like 80%.>save moneyThe Eurofighter development cost was higher per country than the Rafale cost was for France.The Rafale is vastly superior to the EF in all but speed, and honestly superior to the F35 except gimmick.>>65431007>cooperation.Dassault made the nEUROn drone in 6 months working with 6 different countries.It's Germany who are fucking up all European project for various reasons- fifth column lobbyists (US, Russia, China...) to keep Europe weak,- national lobbying to give (busywork) jobs to German industries,- deliberate attempt to undermine "their rival" France and take leadership of Europe, Krauts are the one letting their pride get in the way,- weak government, no backbone "the US will protect us anyway" mentality,It took Russia invading Ukraine and a traitorous Donald to even start considering standing for themselves (but not for Europe).The FCAS debacle was Germany try to gain control of the whole project through a bureaucratic trick, then act as if France wasn't doing them two favors in the first place.No country will give Germany any right to veto for a reason, no doubt US lobbyist will be happy to replace their whole airforce with ITAR-ready F47.In comparison, France offer military and nuclear deterrence for Europe, gladly collaborate with Germany and would give them leadership over armored vehicle production (as long as they don't try to starve France industries), cooperate with all of Europe on many projects as long as they don't let the US install ITAR killswitch.
