Meet America's new wheeled artillery.https://breakingdefense.com/2026/08/army-picks-hanwhas-wheeled-k9-for-self-propelled-howitzer-prototypes/>The Army has awarded Hanwha Defense USA a deal to deliver K9MH prototypes for the new self-propelled howitzer modernization program, the service announced today. >“The agreement provides for the accelerated delivery of six prototype MTC [Mobile Tactical Cannon] systems, with an option for an additional 12,” the Army wrote. “Soldiers will use these platforms in a series of operational experiments to assess performance, reliability, and supportability in realistic combat conditions.”
>>65435178>Frogs were ahead of the curve award N10837300
>>65435186Hanwha is Samsnug Correa you dombass.
>>65435230I assume they are referring to the fact that CAESAR was designed in the last millenium.
>>65435178I want to see these babies shelling Minsk.
>>65435178KOREA STRONK
>The agreement provides for the accelerated delivery of six prototype MTC systems, with an option for an additional 12. Soldiers will use these platforms in a series of operational experiments to assess performance, reliability, and supportability in realistic combat conditions. Huh, so they havent actually decided on the vehicle as a whole, but are ordering a series of prototypes to evaluate the concept as a whole, before (maybe?) ordering more. Makes sense, considering the last decade of failed projects
G5 Rhino is still the coolest fucking wheeled SPG. Like you took a German factory making Nashorns and sent it forwards in time to the HALO setting. I always thought being the single-seat driver up there by yourself listening to music & comms while trekking through the jungle roads would be peak.
>>65435186CAESAR is turretless closer is Serbian Nora, Czechoslovakia even South African
I'm actually surprised America didn't take the Paladin's turret and put it on an Oshkosh/GM/Navistar truck
>>65435178Way too reasonable, so obviously the MTC program will get cancelled
>>65435178>automated turret5 years of Ukrainian war, and they still haven't learnt a thing... That shit usually is a hangar queen, takes ages to rearm, and is a litteral death trap with so many drones roaming behind the frontlines.
>>65436338>litteral death trapUnless it is tortoise tank then every vehicle is a death trap in modern warfare.
>>65435178implessive
>>65435186>the frenchczech this out
>>65436338The US is not building to fight ukraine war 2.0, nor should we. If we're fighting like that then we've lost.
>>65436452So, is america building to fight iran war 2.0? I dont see how a wheeled howitzer will be able to open the strait.
>>65436452NOOO you don't understand. You HAVE TO plan to fight a strategic failure of a war where neither side has the ability to maneuver or reach decisive victories. You can't plan to win wars, you just can't.
>>65436459Judging by how Yemen and Iran are going, it certainly seems like so.
>>65436464>planningTrump being a retarded nigger and ignoring all the military planners and leaders telling him the truth is something entirely different.
>>65436470"We spent almost all if our good ammo on Ukraine, if you go to Iran you better hope they collapse in 3 days or we are going to be taking it up the ass" is not exactly war winning advice.It's war avoiding advice, I'll give you that, but a victory it is not.
>>65436470>muh iranHas been OUTRAGEOUSLY successful. Anyone believing otherwise is a drooling retard.
>>65436477>You can't defeat an enemy by bombing him from the airis more like what he would have been told.>>65436479Can you tell me what objectives have been accomplished?
>>65436479>Has been OUTRAGEOUSLY successful.Yes. Iran has been outrageously succesufl at withstanding the US' attempt to regime change and then putting the US into a strategically disastrous position in which it is now stuck having to chose which way to lose the war, with US victory no longer being a realistic possibility.
>>65436483>Can you tell me what objectives have been accomplished?1: Replace old regime with new regime + cardboard2: make my stock portfolio go zoom3: get RTX to make a gazillion new missiles4: proof-of-concept on obstructing traffic in a naval chokepoint5:????????6: plenty of funny memes all around
>>65436498So none of them?
>>65436458The strait is not openable with military force unless you spent a few years bombing iran or send boots on the ground. The war wasn't winnable the way trump wanted to do it in the first place. This doesn't mean we rebuild the military to fight a war of strategic failure.
>>65436479What kind of madness do you need to be consumed with to conflate paying their tolls with success?Explain in great detail as to how replacing supreme leader Khameini with supreme leader Khameini has achieved our objectives.>>65436483>>>You can't defeat an enemy by bombing him from the airWe can't know exactly how their meetings went, but that is also war avoiding advice. The whole bombardment followed by land invasion thing worked in Iraq because Saddam ignored months of build up and didn't have thousand of precisely guided missiles.If we tried to gear up for an actual, proper invasion capable of busting Iranian military and governmental structures to the point of collapse, not only would there be preemptive rocket attacks, but there would be not so subtle Chinese and Russian assistance in doing so.Trump bet that the government is so unstable that busting a few key individuals would destabilize it enough for a popular uprising to cause the kind of chaos we can capitalize on. It didn't work because there was a stable chain of command that immediately stepped up take over. Then they also got bombed and again the next in line took over. You want to win the war in Iran? You gotta go there and fight for real.
>>65436506>We can't know exactly how their meetings went, but that is also war avoiding advice.No, it's arguing that if you want to defeat the enemy you also need a ground, maneuver war.
>>65436516Is it necessary? No. Is it necessary for Iran? Yes.
>>65436518>Is it necessary?Yes.
>>65436519Israel shwacked the new Syrian government over the head and basically demilitarized them of noteable heavy equipment with airpower alone.
>>65436521That is not synonymous to defeating the enemy.
>>65436526Do you think defeating the enemy is solely full occupation? Flying your flag outside their capital? Retard.
>>65436516>you also need a ground, maneuver war.You want to have a mobile war in Iran? In those mountains? Half of which are bored through and riddled with concrete hives? Against at least 2 million fanatical IRGC niggers + regular army? While the Russians and Chinks are delivering food, money and weapons without pause? While guided missiles are landing into our ports and fuel depots? While Russian/Chinese "science ships" are doing "sea floor mapping" in range of our fleets?Are you sure you've looked at the map and though this through?
>>65436532To defeat is to:>disrupt or nullify the enemy commander’s plan and overcome his will to fight, thus making him unwilling or unable to pursue his adopted course of action and yield to the friendly commander’s will.It is not possible to ensure this with an air campaign. You require an actual maneuver element on the ground to defeat the enemy.>>65436533See above. Either start a ground war or don't start anything at all.
>>65436545yeah you're just retarded
>>65436338What you're saying is retarded, Caesar guns have the longest lifespan in Ukraine because they can fire a few rounds and flee before the drones arrive, having an automatic turret allows you to be faster.
>>65435178Just a few days after the president took a shit on south Korea, the US declares their intent to rely on them militarily. B-E-A-utiful
>>65435186>unarmoredLolLmao
>>65436569>rely onThe factory will be built in Alabama, United States.
>>65436157The Paladin is woefully outdated. It should not be the basis of a modern SPH.
>>65436622Ominous given the artillery factory debacle.
>>65436567From what I understand an automated turret doesn't really make it quicker, because you will always need at least 2-3 shots to recalibrate to hit your target, so you will always need to wait like 1 or 2 minutes to see where your 1st shot landed, so only the 1st shot will be faster.And by "death trap" I think he means that an automated turret is full of ammo and charges, so if 1 FPV or whatever lands a good hit it's bye bye for the whole vehicle. The Ukrainians don't use the storage on the side of the Caesars for that reason. That's also why I thought that the competition would be between the Caesar, Bohdana and Atmos.
>>65436890>debacleno real debaclethey knowingly gambled on a higher-risk method of ramping up shell production and they lostit's hard to judge from unclassified data whether the risk was worth the attempt or not
>>65436920Automated turrets exist to cut down on the required crew for the vehicle. A towed gun requires like 6-7 guys for fast and successful operation. A proper SPG needs just 3.
>>65435178>heeledhuh, I guess they'll just slap those turrets on Oshkoshs. Also I guess that balances out Trump's chimping at Korean Wargames and appeases the Samsungs
>>65436934considering the yourapoors have managed to ramp up shell production by an order of magnitude moreI don't see how this could have even been high-risk high-reward and you'r not telling me that the US doesn't have the domestic capacity to just copy them
>>65436974>I don't see howthen sit down and leave the thinking to those who do>considering the yourapoors have managed to ramp up shell production by an order of magnitude morehave they?what are the numbers for US and European shell production, cite them
>>65435178>coping gooktranniesimagine being dimwitted enough to believe this is a contract hahahaha
>>65436261>>65436157BAE shit the bed one too many times
>>65436458A lot of people (NAFO types in particular) have learned the wrong lessons from the war in Ukraine.
>>65436495They're down to the bottom rung of retirees who used to be sychophants to Khameini running their military, they can't stop US bombardments from killing said leaders, and their economy is g o n e. How is Iran not losing?
>>65436533>>65436545Or we just keep bombing you thirdies into the dirt and you keep on dying. That works.
>>65437020Don't you mean thirdies spamming threads about how shaheds will save them any minute now?
>>65436986the europeans produced 300k shells a year in 2022 and are now doing somewhere between 2m and 2,5m germany alone produces almost double what the US does https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/current/germany-us-ammunition-production-rheinmetall-rearmament/so sit down and and leave the discusion to those that know what they are talking about also note that those European factories don't use turkshit robots despite being their economies being a lot more exposed to each other
>>65436464>Judging by how Yemen and Iran are goingEven the anti Trump media outlets are starting to admit Iran lost.
>>65436890>Ominous given the artillery factory debacle.Turkish equipment is not involved so there isn't anything to worry a out there.
>>65437043>europeans produced 300k shells a year in 2022 and are now doing somewhere between 2m and 2,5mgermany alone produces almost double what the US does>counting factories in Americashiggity
>>65436956Well in most videos I saw of a FPV striking a vehicle the crew always try to flee, if the ammo detonates first the one guy crew is more likely to die than the 2 guys in a non-automated SPG who can flee.But what I was talking about was that automated turret go boom and destroy the SPG while the non-automated turret are only damaged and are more likely to be able to be repaired
>>65436956DITA only needs 2 with the fully automatic turret
>>65437091>counting factories in AmericaRheinmetall doesn't have any shell production in the USclearly the US would be better of getting them involved instead of some turkshits
>>65437108Rheinmetall has ammunition factories in at least 3 states.
>>65437079That's the spirit son, you've got this!
>>65437043>what>are>the>numbers>for>US >shell >productionyou omitted US shell production because you know you're wrong and are trying to cover it up while still acting smugyou are an unrepentant liar and bullshitter acting in bad faith hoping not to be called out
>>65437117it's american subsidiary that being said Rheinmetall isn't the only German shell produceryou can cope all you want but you can't dispute the numbers
>>65437125>anon doesn't know that is a plane in a boneyardembarrassing
>>65437134No one is disputing the numbers, you are simply in denial about where the factories are.
>>65437134The numbers you're afraid to post because they destroy your narrative?
>>65437132some 600,000 in 2024 shells as per the article cited the US was planning to get to 1,2 by 2026 but has fallen well short if you have source to dispute that feel free to post it or shut up
>>65437144>No one is disputing the numbersoh, *I* certainly am
>>65437143Prime thirdie meltdown. >>65437149Your source is third world clickbait from a zigger outlet.
>>65437149>600,000 in 2024>if you have source to dispute that feel free to post it or shut upsure, the figure is actually less; 36,000 a month as of March 2026https://www.forbes.com/sites/petersuciu/2026/07/24/us-army-has-failed-to-replenish-stockpiles-of-155mm-artillery-rounds/now show me your European 360,000/month shell production or get down and lick my boots, moron
>If we screech 'Iran is winning' in enough threads then it becomes reality!!!The thirdies are not OK.
>>65437156sure if you've the number and a better source feel free to post them here
>>65437143what it looks like the second Pakisaar stops using chatgpt to write posts
>>65437159>We It's one toilet paperless third-worlder named Achmad Rachmani.
>>65437160My ass is a better source and it says Europe has never even seen a shell let alone made one. Debate me.
>>65437164>ACKmadAmazing.
>>65435178>which way, artillery man?
>>65437157>now show me your European 360,000/month shell production or get down and lick my boots, moronthat would be nice if I ever claimed thatI said that Europe managed to increase it's production by an order of magnitude more than the US has increased it's productionfrom the low hundreds of thousands into the low millions meanwhile the US can't break one million you'r free to keep grasping at straws about magnitude but as it stands the Europeans produce several times more shells than the USand they didn't need to turn to some turkish gambit to achieve that
>If we call him brown enough that will fix US shell production and paper over how the US got scammed by some turks
>>65437175Going from zero to one is an infinite rate of growth. >>65437179You're mad about the Turks because someone posted memes about them bullying the Salafvids back in the Middle Ages in another thread. It's so easy to get you to out yourself.
>>65437182the US and the Europeans started with comparable shell production numbers.the Europeans have managed to increase that production by an order of magnitude the US hasn't>tuks and persian shithahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahyou think I care about that?you do know that people don't become brown simply because they disagree with youif I where some brown shitskin I wouldn't be pointing out how the Europeans managed to increase their shell production. instead I'd be ranting about how many shells russia has claimed to have made and how that's bigger than US and European production combined
>>65436974>the yourapoors have managed to ramp up shell production by an order of magnitude morehere comes the goalpost shifting>>65437175>I said that Europe managed to increase it's production by an order of magnitude more than the US has increased it's productionit's certainly easy to show massive increases when you start from fuck-alland even if we were to take this ludicrous claim at face value, it's still wrong: pre-2022 European shell production was 300,000 shells a year>keep grasping at straws about magnitudeit's not my fault that you don't understand the meaning of the term "order of magnitude" and are now backpedalling frantically>>65437182>goes from 1 to 5look ma, 500% increase!
>>65436974shells are for poorfags, the Americans are focusing on missile productiongood luck trying to shoot down ballistic missiles with howitzers
>>65437202>here comes the goalpost shifting>Europe produces more shells than the US and has managed to increase it's production a lot better>nah hun you din't use this word the right waysure thing fag how is that going to close the gap in shell production between the US and Europe?
>>65437213>the meanings of words don't mattervery brown mindset
>>65437216>going from hundreds of thousands to millions isn't an order of magnitude
>>65437223>300,000 to 2 million isn't an order of magnitudeit isn't, no, not if you don't leave out the number to make it sound more implessive than it really is
>>65437258>going from 300k to 2,5m is the same as going from 150k to 400ksure and I'm sure it's a very sane high-risk high-reward strategy to outsource critical parts of production to a turkish firm that will close the gap any day now.
>>65437283>is the sameI never said it was
>>65437173 >>which way, artillery man?Whichever can mount an L58 superlength barrel with a 25-liter chamber.
>>65437291can you then concede that there is a significant difference one might even with a bit of poetic license say a difference on an order of magnitudesomething only a raging spastic would throw a fit over simply because he felt slighted by reality hand had to kvech about semantics
>>65437164He's putting in a lot of work. Most implessive (or whatever Farsi equivalent).
>>65437312You mean like the one you're throwing now?
>>65437368>no it's only 8x, you can't use that word to describe it, that word is only for 10xare you german?
>>65437394it's not thoughbeit.
>>65437400Gutten abond Hans
>>65436338>That shit usually is a hangar queen, takes ages to rearm, and is a litteral death trap with so many drones roaming behind the frontlines....which is why every subsequent Bohdana upgrade has involved automating it?
>>65437407Cyka bylat, zigger.
>>65436974America is just too corrupt, and there is no actual oversight or punishment for taking the money and accomplishing nothing. And it doesn't help that the MIC is the B and C students, while the heavy hitters are in finance and SV.
>>65435178Seems like an off-brand Zuzana
>>65436974Go google the fiasco of the new shell plant not being able to produce shells
>>65437031>How is Iran not losing?because it still exerts fire control over the strait of hormuz, its one major strategic lever over the world economy, and until ships feel safe sailing through there without risking eating a missile or shasneed this will remain the caseit literally does not matter if all of iran is in flames as long as someone remains who can launch missiles and drones into the strait
>>65438304>because it still exerts fire control over the strait of hormuzIran has never had control of the Strait my seething thirdie friend.
>>65438304>because it still exerts fire control over the strait of hormuz, its one major strategic lever over the world economy,$83 a barrel. They lost a long time ago, they just dont have the decency to concede. Honor cultures, not even once.
>>65437741>while the heavy hitters are in finance and SV.What does SV mean? Sales something?
>>65438428>>65438433fuck's sake can we discuss this without resorting to flinging ad hominems or accusations of being brown at each otherLOOK at ship traffic in the strait today compared to this time last year. Iran does not need to control every single ship to exert *fire control* over it and pressure the rest of the world with the threat of bombing shit that passes through it if they don't concede to demands. it does not matter if we fucking glass every city in the whole country if they retain the capability to credibly bomb shit in the strait and that threat is high enough to affect how willing anyone is to ship shit through it. Iran sees this as an existential war. it does not give a flying fuck that we destroyed its navy and blew up a bajillion hadjis. as long as its sole strategic lever remains in its hands it will keep using it. which it fucking is.
>>65437179>r over how the US got scammed by some turkswhat is the context of this?
>>65436622>factory will be builtThat still means a lot of technical data is to be delivered. So yes, reliant on Korea. Good will for a while yet.
>>65437312>poetic license>semanticssorry, but I have a specific objection to thisI may agree with you on TZD and various other issues, but I do not agree that the term "order of magnitude" ought to be granted poetic license to mean anything less than at least 10x
>>65437020no, moreso dronenigger thirdie types who support russia and iran.
>>65437258it is quite literally two orders of magnitude you seething stovepipe lmao.
>>65438808>it's 30 million nowfucking idiotyou're not old enough to post here, kiddo
>>65435178The Serbs have built a bunch of versions of Nora in 152 and 155. Pic is the chonk version they sold to Azerbaijan. There is also a Bangladesh version.
>>65438589The longer it goes on the less leverage Iran will have. Consumption is being reduced, both in terms of demand, as high prices naturally result in lower consumption, but also with the deployment of alternatives from solar, wind, geothermal all the way down to biogas and mass EV adoption. Long term, nuclear power is experiencing a reinessance as well.It's like the south during the civil war beliving 'King Cotton' will force the hand of the rest of the world.
>>65437173For a vast and varied country like Australia, we have never had self-propelled artillery until this year.
>>65437173This montage needs to add Boxer RCH155 given it now has multiple customers.
>>65438889This is only for non poors. Hence why most shitters disregard it.
>>65435178watch as "someone" will lobby it to get it cancelled it and make a new procurement so detailed that it will favour only a single american companyoh wait that was the air tanker program sorry
>>65438889I'm still unsure whether shoot on the move and substantial armour are utterly necessary in the new drone-infested world, or a useless and expensive gimmick.
>>65438949They don't operate at the frontline, with modern munitions their range can be upwards of 70km. The ability to fire and move means they'll be gone from the firing area before shells impact the ground. Drones are not ever-present across the frontline 70km in depth, even less so armed drones, meanin drones need to reach the firing areas. Even fast attack drones will take a decent chunk of time to get there. Moreover they presumably operate in an organized force structure that includes drone defense as opposed to every man for himself. This is all beside the point that drones are a fairly new weapon system against which countermeasures are still being developed. Drone attrition rates are already approaching 90% in Ukraine. If effective countermeasure are developed you're back to square one where superior firepower and maneuver units are badly needed. Simply droping development and procurement on basically everything 'because drones' is idiotic. You need an actual army with combined arms, drones effectively being one of the 'arms', to fight a war.
>>65438970... if you answered my question there I think I missed it. I don't doubt that artillery still has a role to play, I'm just wondering at how advanced it needs to be.
>>65438970Agreed, and you can saturate a target just as effectively, if not more so, with a dozen artillery rounds as much as you can with a dozen drones.Mainly for static targets, but if you're firing at a moving target, or for counter-battery fire, you'd probably still use drones, especially if your enemy has good shoot-n-scoot artillery.Though, we have seen plenty of times through this war that artillery has been employed effectively against incoming waves, and those units eventually pause or stop, so can be even more easily hit with artillery from 60km away.
>>65438598>US taxpayer funds a new ammo plant to be build by General Dynamics>they outsource critical equipment to a turkish firm>not a singel useable shell producedgreat succeshttps://www.propublica.org/article/general-dynamics-artillery-factory-failed
>>65438981Everyone is fixated on Ukraine where the front is stalemated, but a stalemate is not how wars generally end nor are they a desirable way to fight a war. For a decisive victory, by whichever side, we either see a collapse of the state unable to cope with the political and economic demands of the war or we see a return to maneuver warfare.That's not how we (in the west) want to fight wars. Our aim should be a quick decisive victory and that entails maneuver forces in the form of self propelled guns, tanks, IFV's, APC's, etc. that can exploit tactical and operational weakness, established trough the use of combined arms, to deliver the finishing blow and break in the operational depths of the enemy. We shouldn't be preparing for the war in Ukraine, we should be preparing to avoid a war like the one in Ukraine.
>>65438997>We shouldn't be preparing for the war in Ukraine, we should be preparing to avoid a war like the one in Ukraine.We need to be able to fight like ukraine before we can fight better than ukraine. And the latest exercises show some serious lackings in that regard.
>>65438997 That's not how we (in the west) want to fight wars. Our aim should be a quick decisive victory and that entails maneuver forces in the form of self propelled guns, tanks, IFV's, APC's, etc. that can exploit tactical and operational weakness, established trough the use of combined arms, to deliver the finishing blow and break in the operational depths of the enemy. We shouldn't be preparing for the war in Ukraine, we should be preparing to avoid a war like the one in Ukraine.Okay, so what happens when the enemy doesn't fold over and die and instead brings missile and drone spam?
>>65439009>Okay, so what happens when the enemy doesn't fold over and die and instead brings missile and drone spam?you bomb them to death with air forces>durrr what if you dont have thatdon't start a war then.
>>65439025>you bomb them to death with air forcesDid you miss the part where we had to stop bombing Iran because they rocketed our local bases which then caused a logistical crisis for the carrier on duty?>don't start a war then.And we are back to that is not war winning advice, that is war avoiding advice.
>>65439029The problem is the West is very averse to any loss in life, and Russia, Ukraine and Iran have shown that there will always be missiles and drones that get through and strike targets.While something like 50 US aircraft/assets were hit or lost, can the same be accepted for self-propelled artillery if the drones are getting through and going for them?Maneuver warfare bogs down and slows if you can't push through the losses.
>>65439037>The problem is the West is very averse to any loss in life, and Russia, Ukraine and Iran have shown that there will always be missiles and drones that get through and strike targets.That's because le diversity completely destroyed the national spirit and now we no longer have countries, we have economic zones nobody wants to fight for.>Maneuver warfare bogs down and slows if you can't push through the losses.The fundamental problem that gets manouver warfare gets bogged down is that everyone has sats. This means you can't concentrate your troops in preparation for an attack because they get hit with a rocket strike and if you do some kind of dispersed preparation followed by a concentrated attack, the enemy saw it coming and has 300 drones per tank ready and waiting for you to show up. Also mines.
>>65439029>caused a logistical crisis for the carrier on duty?Calling it a crisis might be overselling it, but it will be quite interesting to see if having to push almost all logistics out to DG will cause some re-work in the USN, especially with regards to the MSC and the ships available under USNS prefix
>>65439042So, to get back to the topic, would you agree that self-propelled shoot-n-scoot artillery is still highly important, but requires redesigned defence against hunter-killer/counterbattery drones,OR,Precision and/or saturation artillery is less important as you can just use drones to hit targets precisely including, or rather, especially, mobile targets?Option two certainly requires less multi-million dollar vehicles and maintenance programs.
>>65438949The system has been in Ukraine for about two years now and countries are buying. Cant be that useless.
>>65439087Ukraine also has great success with the far inferior and far cheaper cesar.
>>65439094Yeah... okay?
>>65439129And a caesar arty piece has a unit cost of 3-6 million. A RCH155 has a unit cost of 14-19 million. Which of the two you buy is kind of an important decision.
>>65439136Stop being poor i guess? The Cesar also has a crew of 5 while the RCH155 has a crew of 2. Which goes a long way in logistics.
>>65439142And aren't they both only capable of carrying something like 24-38 rounds? If I recall correctly it's rather low.
>>65439142>Stop being poorAre you the same kind of idiot who tells people complaining about overweight gear to lift more?
>>65439160No thats stupid.>>65439152No clue.
>>65438826And in true Serb fashion, they made more a capable model (mgs-25) but decided to shelve it because...familiarity
>>65439142Cesar 6x6 holds 18 rounds (6 per minute)Cesar 8x8 holds 36 rounds (6 per minute)Boxer 8x8 holds 30 rounds (8 per minute)
>>65438977>They don't operate at the frontline, with modern munitions their range can be upwards of 70km.Thats only achieveable with rocket assisted ammo and precision guided muntions. If you are firing a rocket out of your gun, you might as well fire a rocket off a truck, and save tons of cost on your guidance kit because it doesnt need to be hardened against a 100 000 G shock and spinning at 250 000 rpm. IIRC an entire GMLRS rocket costs less than an Excalibur shell and has a payload several times larger.
>>65439246Excalibur is the Ermenegildo Zegna of artillery shells. BONUS and SMArt are considerably cheaper. Though, admittedly, those are only useful against vehicles. Also, a missile trugg can only carry 6 ER-GMLRS. Meaning that it has to fuck off to reload after every salvo, far enough enough behind the frontlines that trugg and ammo carrier don't get ganked by a lucky drone. Whereas an RCH-155 can lob 6 MRSI salvoes of 5 shells each before having to reload, and can do it at a light trot.
>>65439074Artillery still has its place because there is no stopping it. Drones suffer severely against defence systems and it gets much worse with range. If you need something blown up 50km past the contact line and it's properly defended, you are stuck using an artillery piece.From what I understand, most of the artillery used in Ukraine is basic bitch towed artillery that sits in a camouflaged dugout until it's time to fire at which point they take the tarp off, shoot a few rounds and put the camouflage back on. Of course it's also possible that there's a lot of mobile artillery around, they just don't get themselves filmed like the less valuable static guns.Mobile self propelled arty has some major advantages and it's certainly worth having, but I'd get the drones first. And even then, within drones there are categories to prioritize.
>>65439320>BONUS and SMArt are considerably cheaperM982 cost $100,000, DM702 is said to cost around €70,0000, and they are both of very different design and purpose
>>65439385>M982 cost $100,000 That's an internal cost listing at the beginning of 2021. US armsmakers always lowball when doing internal accounting. The actual international selling price is way higher. It was closer to $180k back in 2022. By contrast, Euro arms maker figures are closer to actual selling prices, since they generally don't use tiered accounting.
>>65439440>The actual international selling price is way higherbecause the contract includes ancillary equipment and services such as shipping, training, and maintenance>By contrast, Euro arms maker figures are closer to actual selling pricescome onFrance bought Rafale F4s as €120 million a pop, and proposed the same Rafale F4s to the Saudis at €200 million>It was closer to $180k back in 2022yeah, adding 80-100% (or more) to the internal price for all the other bits and pieces that make up an international arms sale is bog-standard
>>65435973>G5 RhinoAmazing hardware, goddamn FrenchiesI also fucking loved them in C&C Renegade
>>65439807>FrenchiesI mean South-Africans, for fuck's sakeCAESAR fucked me up for goodAnyway, glory to the Brotherhood, Kane lives in death
>>65436157They want three man crews.
>>65435178>wheeledWhy, isn't that gay?
>>65439985Not gay if you're underway, and that includes any vehicle in motion.
>>65440009I bet you're so far down the gear stick that you can engage high-range by sneezing
>>65439320>Also, a missile trugg can only carry 6 ER-GMLRSYou dont need to specifically use GMLRS rockets. Guided artillery rockets are available in calibers down to 122 mm. Regular 122 mm rockets can be carried by infantry and launched off a single shot rail. There is no reason why guided 122 mm rockets could not be launched the same way. Meanwhile, to launch your 155 mm shell, you need a 40 ton vehicle costing multiple millions of dollars.
>>65437210Well in a year or so America wants the capability to shoot down drones and cruise missiles with hvp/mdacs.
>>65439985Did I wake up 20 years ago and Sparks/Sprey were relevant again?
>>65435938This image would look much better without those hideous "learn to draw anime" bug faces.
>>65440778you know very well we're talking about the 155mm HE common that most of the new production is
Europoors btfo
>>65436495The I real goal isnt regime change that would be too risky
>>65438990Very good article Imagine trusting the turks
>>65438887Wrong brucehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztnrtgmpzNc
>>65439336In Ukraine use our SPGs basically as static guns. Our officers wish we had towed guns instead because SPGs are huge fuckoff targets that are difficult to camouflage and protect from FPVs. The only advantage of our mobility is being able to exfil and infil to our firing points faster. That and built in power generator is very useful>t. ukie SPG crewman
>>65444588What SPG do you operate? How do different models compare to each other? Mostly curious about DITAs
>>65439142Doesn't mean shit for the Ukros: automated/ turreted howitzer are a pain in the ass to rearm, and in the end, less safe for the crew, since the vehicule will have to carry its own ammunition by itself, turning it into a litteral deathtrap and and easy drone target. TDLR: it's far safer and quicker to use an empty simple non automated system, accompagnied by a low profile vehicule carrying the ammunitions and powder. Takes between 2 and 5 minutes to set up the gun, load it, shoot, and relocate, rince and repeat as much as you need. Whereas an automated turrets will eventually have to rearm and stay still for 30 to 45 minutes... So it will have to burn more fuel to get in and out of the murder zone, and shoot less.
>>65444592Polish Krab, our unit has also had PzH2000 but they prefer the Krab because it's easier to maintain.
>>65444588>Our officers wish we had towed guns insteadthey were wishing for SPGs not long ago because towed guns could not shoot and scoot>>65444657>they prefer the Krab because it's easier to maintainhard to fault thatis it the electronics, the weapon system, or the running gear that's difficult to maintain on the Pzh2000s?
>>65444657Ze German Engineering strikes once again
>>65444661Shoot and scoot is dead completely now, as is counterbattery. Even just the movement to our firing positions (which are just barely in range) is extremely dangerous. FPVs fly over us constantly. As for repairs I heard that the electronics and specifically the ballistic computer are fragile and difficult to keep running out in the field. Krab just worx, except when the primer gets stuck in the breech block and we have to dissemble the whole thing and hammer it out.
>>65444941Crazy how things changemaybe combat electronics should be better hardened good luck, boys
>>65444941could shoot and scoot tactics come back if more counter drone systems were to be implemented?or is the whole concept dead in the water and the future is just big static guns firing away from a trench?
>>65444941God be with you annon
>>65445759It's dead. So are the big guns in static positions - that's an artifact of Ukraine. The future is unmanned HIMARS pods.
>>65445773thats what I figured desulong range MLRS guided by recon dronesgood luck on the battlefield
>>65445964Anon you aren't talking to someone in Europe let alone fighting in Ukraine.
>>65444941>Shoot and scoot is dead completely now>movement to our firing positions>then leaving after Yes, that's called shoot and scoot. Go in, shoot, leave. There will always be threats, and "counterbattery" is now done by artillery and drones.
>>65446081NTA but they’re rightanything that conventional artillery does is done better by GMLRS
>>65446320Trying to do tube arty things with rockets is as inefficient and stupid as trying to do rocket things with tube arty>>65444598>Takes between 2 and 5 minutes to set up the gun, load it, shoot, and relocate, rince and repeat as much as you need.You have never operated a towed 155 in your life lmao. Takes on average a half hour to set up, shoot a mission, and leave. It's not just the gun crews you have to worry about; it's everyone else. >>65444661>is it the electronics, the weapon system, or the running gear that's difficult to maintain on the Pzh2000s?He means they have an easier time getting Polish parts and tech support than German ones. >>65445964No one has the magazine depth or the production capacity to make their artillery park consist entirely of rockets without running out within a month. >>65444598>automated/ turreted howitzer are a pain in the ass to rearm, and in the end, less safe for the crew, since the vehicule will have to carry its own ammunition by itself, turning it into a litteral deathtrap and and easy drone target.Same process to rearm and same risk to personnel that rockets take whenever they leave their hide site with a full pod.
>>65435178Better late than never
>>65436444czeched
>>65436444That better be 155.
>>65435178They really should just bring back the Crusader and update all of the electronics. The only knock against it was that it was "too heavy" (40T plus 40T for the resupply vehicle), back when rapid deployment from CONUS was all the rage.
>>65449527They dropped it because peace dividend and GWOT, not because it was a bad idea.
>>65436533Iran couldn't stop the Americans from building an entire functioning air port inside their country in the middle of a zone their military was actively searching for Americans what the fuck makes you think they'd have a snowballs chance in hell against an actual invasion
>>65436506Yes, the cardboard ayatollah is alive, we wouldn't lie to you about that!
>>65436920>you will always need at least 2-3 shots to recalibrate to hit your targetThis is why the US has purchased large quantities of PGK.
>>65438808Its only one order of magnitude, two orders of magnitude would require a number in the billions
>>65438813100,000 * 10 = 1,000,000 not 10,000,000 anonAlso, stop using AI and think for yourself
>>65439336You understand wrong, static guns are too slow to survive in Ukraine on either side of the line so everyone shoots and scoots with SPGs now
>>65449799>static guns are too slow to survive in Ukraine on either side of the lineGenerally speaking: on the Ukrainian side they mostly employ SPGs and on the russian they've fallen back to old towed guns buried deep inside ultra hardened positions. Pros and cons to each.
>>65438589Iran considers the absolute destruction of the Great and Little Satans to be an existential war. It always has.
>>65444588Why not keep them mobile the way Himars is used, sneaking them forward in the night for a large fire mission, and then running away before dawn?
>>65450164Much shorter range without ER shells (base-bleed, rocket assist etc.). HIMARS has a range of at least 150 km (with the basic ER-GMLRS rockets, ATACMS and PrSM have more). Even the best tube arty (that L58 monster created by KNDS) only has a reliable range a bit over 60 km when using regular (i.e. non-assisted) shells. Since the danger zone extends nearly 50 km on either side of the contact line, this brings the SPG into hunter-killer drone territory.
>>65444315Well I'll be, thanks mate.
>>65449759Apparently only 100 000 have been built, and GPS can be jammed
>>65437173Would prefer 8x8
>>65438889Ugly.
>>65444941>fragile and difficult to keep running out in the fieldKrauts being Krauts.GLHF, anonchik.
>>65437989Zuzana is making me all hot and bothered
>>65435178>America's new wheeled artilleryThey aren't buying it. The Army is interested in the concept of wheeled artillery and want to experiment with it in war games. Six pieces is a single battery in the US Army's structure (2x 3 gun sections). They'll probably equip a paladin battery and play around with it for a while.Buying an existing system that is easy to work with (ROK systems are designed to be fully integrated in US commands) is tons cheaper than building a prototype themselves. If they want to go with a wheeled SPH, they put out a contract to develop something American.This is the same thing as when the US Army rented 16 Italian Centauros to evaluate the concept for the Stryker MGS in 2000. Or when the Army borrowed LAV-25s from the USMC to evaluate the ideas behind the Mobile Protected Firepower program.
>>65451282The purpose of the program is to replace the M777 and M109 with a modern, mobile artillery system. Not to poke around and see what they think of a new operational concept.
>>65451282>They'll probably equip a paladin battery and play around with it for a while.I think it'll go to an MBCT or SBCT battery to replace their 777s. https://files.catbox.moe/u61su0.pdf
>>65438589Have we destroyed their navy though???They still have small boats and missile boats and only one submarine was confirmed sunk in port out of 7+. ASW assets are unable to do their job in the contested air space.Where the FUCK are their subs???
It's just an inferior T-155 FirtinaYou want a k9 with a the best combat history and proven operational track record you go T-155 Firtina
>>65451455Sauce? You think they cannot field test the K9 and figure out what they want altered or upgraded? Don't they have to buy the rights and assemble them here anyway?
>>65438838It is not just oil that passes through the straight and how profitable the petroleum output and economies of several countries is tied to how easily movable their goods are pipelines are not a fix for overall shipping and transfer of goods. If the wealth and competitiveness of gulf monarchies weaken in the long term ( and it will as long as the straight remains closed ) less of their wealth gets reinvested in USA. That has been the deal all along they make obscene amounts of money backed by US firepower share a small amount of it with their citizens invest the rest in us companies stocks and bonds
>>65451532NTA; I want the US to stop humoring those tards who show up to our country in those fucking robes. Put a suit on.
>>65451504Haha T-1SS Fartina
>>65451621You say that but imagine how easy it is for one of your wives or concubines to suck your dick and ngl if you live in desert must be comfy as fuck. ( also mostly we visit them it's not the other way around )
>>65444140Well now they are trusting AI ^^ you gonna say better than turks but the end result will be the same
>>65451468That's likely the final intention. I meant that they'd give it to a paladin battery because they're already familiar with SPHs and have the support equipment/vehicles already. For a test, it'd be quicker and easier to familiarize a paladin battery than to totally retrain and equip a M777 unit.>>65451455>purpose is to replace the M777 and M109. Not to poke around and see what they think of a new operational conceptA wheeled gun wouldn't even be able to fulfill the role of ABCT fires support since it's cross country capability would be so low.The M109 is getting replaced, but not with a wheeled gun. While the intent is to replace M777 batteries, the US doesn't have a wheeled SPH to tell what exactly they want out of one. So they pick up a few existing designs and see what they think. The Army wanted an assault gun on the Styker when they leased the Centauros, but there wasn't anything in the US arsenal that would allow them to see how the Army would use a wheeled assault gun.This is part of the acquisition process. Tests and war games inform doctrine. Doctrine is what technical requirements are written to fulfill. They can't write their program requirements until they know how it's going to be used. They can't write the doctrine until they've tried one out. There's no "poking around" here, the purchases signal that the Army is serious about figuring this out. Direct quote from the Army in the article is:>Soldiers will use these platforms in a series of operational experiments to assess performance, reliability, and supportability in realistic combat conditions>Data and insights gained from these experiments will directly inform senior leaders’ decisions on future fieldingThe Army themselves say it's for experimental evaluation of wheeled SPH concepts. There's zero signs that the Army is evaluating the K9MH for acquisition. Otherwise, this article would be talking about Hanwha signing a deal to build a production site in the US.
>>65451519>Don't they have to buy the rights and assemble them here anyway?A US selection would have to have full US production, not just assembly of knockdown kits. Congress wouldn't fund it otherwise.
>>65451989>I meant that they'd give it to a paladin battery because they're already familiar with SPHdesu I'd give it to whatever cannon battery I could but with FDC personnel, officers, and a 1SGT who had all worked with rockets before. The automation present in these things makes it so it's much more like running a HIMARS battery than paladins. There'll have to be a whole new internal SOP for how they're deployed and directed if they really want to take advantage of what they offer.
Why can't this also do the MDACS role in counter air?
>>65451532Oil is the only relevant thing that passes trough the strait, don't delude yourself, that's what makes it important. The era of oil being the primary source of energy is slowly and assuradly ending. The gulf arabs can revert back to irrelevant desert dwellers and pound sand for all I care.
>>65451504Has this system ever been exported outside Turkey other than on paper?
>>65436567what makes the caesar gun so good is that it's very simple with the bare minimum of gucci tech so you get a sensible gun truck that is easy to manufacture and scale up in numbers
>>65436567>having an automatic turret allows you to be faster.Eh actual firing speed is about the same in the grand scheme when you take into account ammunition handling and reloading procedures. What the auto turret lets you do is crew the thing with only two guys rather than eight. That's huge.
>>65453507Auto turret has better burst, if you want to rapidly saturate an area then fuck off with the quickness. But yes, its biggest advantage is much lower crewing requirement.
