How unfathomably corrupt is the military industrial complex when we went from producing a thousand ships per year in the 1940s to producing 60 tomahawks per year in the 2020s?
>>65435643If you truly understood you would either break down in sadness or rage or they would kill you.
>>65435643>>65435646we've had lased gravity and time travel since the late 1960s, it ain't that deep
>>65435643Anon a tomahawk is much more complex than a 1940s battleship.
>>65435653nuh huh they both tubes of metal that go thataway
>>65435653How can one post be so wrong?
>>65435653How the fuck do you believe that? Anything that houses people inside of it is already 1000 times more complex
>>65435675>>65435660retards
>>65435643Biden raped procurement. The only reason THAAD was still being produced is that the Saudis ordered a bunch. If it weren't for Ukraine, Patriot numbers would probably incredibly slow.
>>65435643you're just spamming threads rn huh?
>>65435643I dunno, maybe because we were rationing all civilian goods and everyone who could make anything was devoted to the war effort? Just a thought
>>65435679You can provide your reasoning at any time
>>65435643Where do you put all of the tomahawks when you make 10,000 a year but you only shoot off 10 of them? Now that we've blown through a lot of our stockpile there's a reason to produce more, but it doesn't happen overnight. If there was a need for more we could scale faster, but the concern here is that we might cone up short in a war with China years from now, not that Iran will invade us if we can't make enough missiles to fend them off.
>>65435688it was more than that. war powers basically suspended the ability of all kinds of groups from interrupting war production. unions, landowners, lawyers, railroads, bureaucrats, whatever. today, they have them lining up and they make more money off obstructing this shit than the primary contractor does. especially the lawyers.
>>65435699just shoot more of them
>>65435705People will complain if you shoot off a few tens of billions of dollars worth of munitions a year in peacetime, even if that's a drop in the bucket compared to overall spending.
>>65435709problem is when everything is a "drop in the bucket" and you fill the bucket up with little drops
>>65435714Which is why we don't shoot off tens of billions of dollars a year in munitions in peacetime.
There's a part of the blackhawk that needs to be replaced after every flight. It looks like a paper clip. It's just a small piece of metal. The manufacturer charges the Army $700 for it.
>>65435699>Where do you put all of the tomahawks when you make 10,000 a year but you only shoot off 10 of them?in the munitions bunkers at hawthorne nevada, i think. that's what that depot is for.
>>65435720>There's a part of the blackhawk that needs to be replaced after every flight. It looks like a paper clip. It's just a small piece of metal. The manufacturer charges the Army $700 for it.There's a small piece of your soul that needs to be replaced after every shillpost. It looks like basic self-respect. It's just a tiny piece of dignity. The manufacturer charges your employer 7 cents for it.
>>65435720What are you going to do, buy a main rotor circlip that isn't aircraft certified? I bet you'll be really glad of that $699.97 you saved when it breaks and the rotors fall off.
>>65435728How many Tomahawks can you fit in it?
>>65435733kek
>>654356431940s US was basically state capitalism. The entire productive output of the US was dedicated to the war effort. Turns out shit gets done when that many people are working towards the same goal.Modern production though is largely impeded by the forces of imperialism. The US has systematically outsourced so much of its productive labor that the majority of US workers are highly-paid professionals, financiers, and service workers. Production is the minority. With this comes the inability of the people within the US to produce what they need, which baloons costs.Military production faces a particularly nasty contradiction in late stage imperialism: you want to outsource the production pipeline, but you cannot because it puts the weapons in the hands of another nation. Tricky situation. You say corruption, I say unavoidable outcome.
>>65435741>Military production faces a particularly nasty contradiction in late stage imperialism: you want to outsource the production pipeline, but you cannot because it puts the weapons in the hands of another nation.>Tricky situation. You say corruption, I say unavoidable outcome.Huh. Personally I call it weaponized planned obsolescence.
>>654357412 more weeks until capitalism collapses, right?
>>65435741>Military production faces a particularly nasty contradiction in late stage imperialism: you want to outsource the production pipeline, but you cannot because it puts the weapons in the hands of another nation.The solution is to only make high-value weapon systems. Making mortar shells is a bad investment for a rich country, making a laser that can shoot down thousands of mortar shells for pennies is a good one.
>>65435709shoot them at the people who complain
>>65435738not sure. probably at least a couple dozen.>The depot covers 147,000 acres (59,000 ha) or 226 square miles (590 km2) and has 600,000 square feet (56,000 m2) storage space in 2,427 bunkers. HWAD is the "World's Largest Depot".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_Army_Depot
>>65435643People don't want to work anymore, and that includes the people who are supposed to make other people work.Why should congress critters make the effort to leave their offices and demand efficiency when it's not their money they're spending and they're making millions for themselves on insider trading?
>>65435874>People don't want to work anymoreso how is the unemployment rate so low? the current rate is around mid 70s or 2000's levels
>>65435643There's no actual war going on and thus no large sector of society devoted entirely to producing equipment for it. You cannot run that kind of economy perpetually. You build what you need/can afford, keep some stockpile, and gradually produce new as things reach their expiration date. If you fire off stuff then you need to wait for more to be produced from the facilities that can create it. And we're dealing with weapons a bit more complex than dumb bombs/shells.
>>65435643A single tomahawk is infinitely more complex than the entire us navy of 1940.
>>65435741That's a lot of words for a leftist to say that they finally achieved perfect gaberment regulations and to NOT say the consequences of this are dire.
>>65435948Fine and dandy but the American gaberment spends unfathomable amounts of money for "defense" and has nothing to show for it.
>>65435969Yeah as we all know the US is utterly incapable of fighting a warWait a second, that's ridiculous
>>65435643Why make this fucking thread? They can make more but don't have a use for them right now so don't order them.
>>65435823So like 50,000 Tomahawks if you stacked them 8 feet high with no spaces in between. It would certainly be possible to build that many, but that's a lot of valuable storage space that couldn't be used for anything else, and a lot of missiles sitting in bunkers that would need to be periodically overhauled and modernized. And once you build that number, you're back to standby production rates.
>>65435688>imblying US government doesn't
>>65436020Does this chart include spending on servicing debt?
A single ww2 destroyer took around 1million man hour to build, a tomahawk should be around 2000-3000 man hours
>>65435643WW2 production was cheap and lousy and i'm tired of pretending it wasn't. Thousands of bombers made per month and what happened to all of them? Scrapped after the war, because the frames had already worn out so hard they weren't airworthy, not even sold to foreign states not even as civilian transports. Same with so much other shit like jeeps, ships, tanks, guns, etc, a lot that was made fast and cheap was not only obsolete within a few years but also trashed, more expensive to repair and maintain than they ever were to produce.
>the *uZZians build 90-120 WW2 battleships a monthImpressive.
For the same price you can get 10 flamingoes
>>65436020>>65436025>federal spending at 23%>state spending at 11%>local spending at 10%>44% of the US economy is goverment spending >that's only 5% less than the EU average
>>65436090Today US Government spends more than during WWII war mobilized economy and have nothing to show as results of this spending...
>>65436102Except for all of the ships, tanks, missiles, aircraft, bombs etc
>>65436102well most of it's spending now is on social spending I just found the breakdown of public/private spending to be interesting especially when you look at how small the gap has gotten with the EU
>>65435697battleships are a lot of fabrication and welding. tomahawks are microcircuits that switch fast enough to recognize the terrain its flying over at hundreds of miles per hour while carrying a nuclear warhead about ten times more powerful than that the ones dropped on japan. if you can't see the difference in complexity then ask yourself why they couldn't do this in ww2 and if you still don't understand then fuck off because that poster is right about you.
>>65436169No no bro you don't understand, it's big and it needs a lot of manpower! It totally has to be super complicated and hard to build!
>>65436169The sheer effort in putting all those resources together is more complex than assembling a missile. The missile's production chain is more complex, but in terms of the actual final production item than it goes to the battleship without a doubt.
>>65436169I have a smartphone in my hand.I don't have a battleship in my yard.Checkmate, dipshit.
>>65436169>nuclear warhead Not relevant to this discussion
>>65436169A aamsung is moe powerful than a tomahawk retard
>>65435731What a useless and pathetic post.
>>65435949You are infinitely dense.
>>65435984They're currently losing a war against sand niggers
>>65436084I still can't get over how this is just modernized V-1
>>65436250Iran lost to literal niggers.
>>65436250iranians are spending half their monthly wage ($100) on food
>>65436306may we see the victory
>>65435653na they are pretty much the same
>>65436297And that's what makes it cool.
>>65435643Because all modern equipment is bottlenecked by electronics which can never reach the level of mass manufacture of simple things like steel.
>>65435653A phone is far more complex than a 1940s battleship
>>65435643>How unfathomably corruptVery corrupt. They should be demolished and replaced by new thing.
>>65435643>How unfathomably corrupt is the military industrial complex when we went from producing a thousand ships per year in the 1940s to producing 60 tomahawks per year in the 2020s?Not only is it corrupt, but it's also incredibly tangled in its own requirements that nothing ever gets done.Every component needs to be checked and rechecked in one way that makes sense and 15 that do not and gradually accumulated inside of the system over the decades. You get entire departments doing pointless inspections and of course this continues because they have to protect their jobs.The actual corruption manifests through nonsensical contractor companies that get hired by order of the boss to make simple things like ramps, screws and ladders, but they charge for it x1000$.The actual major companies like lockheeb don't even get these magical profits and kickbacks because that money would end up with the shareholders and that's counter productive to the people profiting off of the corruption. They tend to make around 10% when all is said and done.Of course, this brings up the real question: where does the money actually end up. And the answer is politics and propaganda. Promotional campaigns for one thing or another, election campaign donations, newspaper/internet/television shills etc. etc.
>>65435643These ships were made out of concrete, and the USA's current output is higher than our output was during WW2 despite having fewer workers. A war board 2026 USA would be a wild thing to see. Suspension of contractual obligations, iron and coal from the USA gets turned into war materials. Concrete drone boats, domestically supplied chips and rolled steel being turned into missile bodies in giant outdoor assembly lines that will pay anybody a daily wage to bend, rivet, or weld something over and over again for 12 hours
>>65436084...which take up way more space/weight, aren't navalized, are easier to shoot down, don't have satellite downlink/anti-ship capabilities and are less accurate. For naval ops, the cost of the munitions isn't even the limiting factor. Look up the operational costs of a single destroyer per year
>>65436414Oh yeah, it's just total collapse of western manufacturing capabilities in general.Btw, Henry Hazlitt was warning in the 1960s already that this switch from industrial capabilities to the "service economy" (with law, finances, healthcare and administration being the most prominent occupations) must end in a disaster. That's before we even account for government corruption kek.
>>65436455>Every component needs to be checked and rechecked in one way that makes sense and 15 that do not and gradually accumulated inside of the system over the decades. You get entire departments doing pointless inspections and of course this continues because they have to protect their jobs.as someone who's basically just starting to learn about industrial standards, i've wondered about that for some time. you look at a video or a product from any major aerospace company and see how they go about inspecting a single article, even something as simple as a bolt, and it swaps hands through like 6 different inspectors all performing different tests like fluorescent penetrant inspection, ultrasonic stress testing, coordinate measuring, etc. and i can't help but think how much that adds to the cost. it made me wonder if it were possible to cut down costs somehow and i remember seeing that new chinese cruise missile, the YKJ-1000, that they are apparently building for ~$100k/each and it turns out that they're using off-the-shelf automotive components that don't require all of that extensive testing because the performance requirements aren't specifically high and they don't need to last very long; it's all extremely cohesively designed and shrink-wrapped in its planning and production methodology if truei used to think that everything high technology had to be expensive but it's becoming more and more obvious that that is a conscious choice, to an extent
>>65436306We must conclude: niggers>sand niggers>leftards in charge of western civilization.Those niggers must just be more down to earth.
>>65436310>>65436306First the cope then the seethe. Beautiful.
>>65436169The device you are posting from is an order of magnitude more complex electronic device and can be sold to consumers for a few hundred bucks.
>>65435943>how is the unemployment rate so lowRedefinition of "employment" to include "education" (sitting through pointless impossible-to-fail courses on feminist art appreciation or some equally useless shit)
>>65436579Usually also includes unemployed people who are active clients of employment services and shit like that.
>>65435643>1000 shipsWhich would die without ever even DETECTING a modern day target. Modern weapons are orders of magnitude more expensive and effective than their 1940's counterparts, but if you want to crank out T54's by the thousands go right ahead, it's the greatest way to cure overpopulation in your country.
how come its always threads complaing about how actually secretly bad the american military is? its never about germany, the uk, spain or any other nato country.
>>65435643>>65435646Samefag less obviously.
>>65436611You were carrying the torch for a while. And son, we are dissapoint.
>>65436619>for a whilewithout lying tell me who is ahead?for the followup: how many conflicts has the new leader engaged in in the last 50 years?
>>65436611Because nobody doubts the garbage status of the Germany military for example, and the rest are utterly mediocre as well.
>>65435746Nobody was talking about capitalism, you illiterate retard?>>65435966That'S a really funny take, given the US wartime economy in the 40's was closer to a full-on government-run command economy than anything the US has ever seen before or after. Like FFS the US government literally sent in bureaucrats and military officers to outright take over corporate leadership in companies that failed to meet their demands back then.
>>65435994Anon. Trump launched more than half the global stockpile at Iran over the last 6 months. ~4 years worth of even that theoretical maximum rate production.
>>65436306And yet they're winning against the US. Makes you think...
>>65436550see >>65435733
>>65436641what exactly ARE the win conditions for iran, and do only pro-iran people believe that?
To be fair we weren't also turning penises into pussies back then. It's give and take.
>>65436641>winningAre they? Last I checked Irans economoy was falling apart and all they can do are the occasional drone attack that doesn't achieve anything but make the surrounding countries despise them and further reduce the little trade they had.
>>65436721>thirdies before iran >try it great satan you'll lose ships and hundreds of zogbots!>after>t-the straight is mostly closed haha!>forgets to mention that the lack of trade hurts them even more than does the us>soon there will be full on famines and power loss in the third world causing millions to die If this is the US losing I'd really hate to see what winning looks like.
>>65436678the IRGC to still be in power when all is said and done, all the rest is icing on top
>>65435741It takes fewer people to achieve the same output. US manufacturing is basically maxed out, we can't do any more without going into overcapacity because maintaining on hand inventory is expensive and wasteful. The main reason we outsource is the Chinese we're willing to do something basically for free and we spent the last 25 years essentially letting them. It's not that US manufacturing packed up and moved to China, the vast majority of jobs weren't lost to outsourcing. They were lost to automation. Computers killed ~90% of the jobs we had in WW2 while simultaneously making production costs cheaper and workers much more productive. The problem is oh hey what happens when we scale up production to make missiles. The US government will use what it needs and then stop buying more. Then we have a production line we spent $100 million on shut down and no one else to sell to. And it's not like we aren't doing it. We put hella money into ramping up production of domestic artillery. We put hella money into ramping up maintenance and production for warships and auxiliary ships. You get the idea. We're doing it. We don't have a war board telling everyone to do it faster.
>>65436751So we can set up an assembly line to build tomahawks and make them for $500k each but then where do we store them? Tomahawks have a shelf life. They are expensive because the components necessary for its capabilities are all bespoke proprietary technology miniaturized and hardened against the weapons of foreign adversaries. It's guidance systems are redundant and it can loiter over a target and wait for the opportunity to explode. A barracuda 500 can't do that. How do you find R&D for the next block tomahawk and develop new capabilities unless you roll them into the costs of small production? This is why these cost $3 million. I'm sure if the federal government wanted 80,000 of them Raytheon could revise the price to $500k each.
>>65436404Tell this to 1 billion annual smartphone production.
>>65435741>1940s US was basically state capitalismSee >>65436020 >>65436090
>>65435643Simple. We have NO industry compared to the 1940s
>>65436779US domestic production is 6-7 times higher than it was at the peak of WW2, don't believe that.
US value added manufacturing hit 3 trillion dollars this year. China is at 4.8 trillion but China manufactures 30% of everything used on earth and we manufacture half of that with 1/5th the population.
>>65435738*slaps bunker door*
Learn to Wartime Economy, stupido. The US isn't in some major conventional conflict so the kind of numbers that shat out ships in the 40s is something you never see in peacetime.Besides, said big conventional wars are rare these days with most combatants already at the negotiating table after a few airstrikes and bombings. Why the fuck would you need factories churning out 100 tomahawks when less than 10 would do?
>>65436779>weBut you're from a third world shithole.
>>65435699>>65436824Total cope. The idea that "bro in a real war we would just increase production" is retarded becauseA: that's happening right now and production is barely being increased B: In the case of a major war with a near peer now or in the future you won't have months or years to ramp up production. Even if by some heruclean effort you double or triple production from 60 a year to 180 in 6 months good chance the war is decided by then and when you are firing off 300 a month its still not enough.And tomahawks are not some extremely advanced tech, they debuted in the early 80s
Sometimes I wonder whether incel smegma z was just this thread but in slav
>>65436084For the same price as 10 flamingoes, you can get 50 GBU-31s.
>>65436858>A: that's happening right now and production is barely being increasedIt's not, no one at any level on the US side is treating this like a real war and that's why it's such a shitshow.>B: In the case of a major war with a near peer now or in the future you won't have months or years to ramp up production. Even if by some heruclean effort you double or triple production from 60 a year to 180 in 6 months good chance the war is decided by then and when you are firing off 300 a month its still not enough.This was just as true of ship production going into ww2 and look at how that turned out.
>>65435699>If there was a need for more we could scale fasterThe Patriot situation shows that this is very much not the case.
>>65436768You don't think the two are even close to equivalent...right?
>>65435643The post has convinced me the west is weak and BRICS is the new superpower numba one
>>65436802Europe has what, 750 million people? It does about 2.8 trillion in value added combined manufacturing so the US even with its extremely limited manufacturing workforce outperforms everyone else man for money.
>>65435699>If there was a need for more we could scale fasterThere is a need for more munitions since Ukraine war started. 5 years later nothing changed. US corps moved like 90% of production to Asia. You cannot simply move it back in few years. You don't even have educated and qualified workers in enough numbers to do that.
>>65436904Nobody will ever match US WW2 navy so I wouldn't get too excited Rasheed.
>be Achmad>Ban evading because of yesterday's raft of seethe threads not going well>Iran still rubble>IRGC commanded by third string Khameini loyalists they called out of retirement because their current crop of commanders are dead>Can't ship oil>No nukes, no ships, no air force, down to cope tubes and cope kites>Come to /k/ to shed fat goatfucker tears for free
>>65435687He's been seething nonstop. Someone clocked him in another thread changing characters to try and D&C right as he was doing it.
>>65436964Quick post an anime girl, that will convince people you aren't brown.
>>65436790Productivity is down, thoughbeit.
>>65437005So are your pants when you see a goat with its back to you.
>>65436874Tomahawk computer from 80s had 64K memory. 190000 times less than average smartphone today. So difference in production of electronics then and today is completely mind-blowing.
>>65436824>Learn to Wartime Economy, stupidoUS already spends large part of the GDP then during WWII >>65436775
>>65436626Well obviously China is ahead. Look at their stalemate with India using sticks and shields.It's the future of warfare.
Tough pill for AIPA/K/ to swallow but if they are being spent by and for Israel then we should be producing zero.
>>65437255>aipa/k/Christ and I thought /k/eddit was the worst you brainless children could come up with
>>65437511
>>65437569one of the two million russian kikes living in israel
>brownoids when 'janny' wont let him post AI sloppa and BBC
Low energy??? He can't even stay awake these days without his bimbo handler shocking him with the butplug shoved up his incontinent ass lol
>>65437592what a weird thing to bring up out of no where, almost like you're a tranny projecting and breaking /gif/ containment or at least larping as one
>65437602>trannies mentionedProtip:If youre seeing 'trannies' everywhere, (You)'re the tranny.
are we pretending those aren't some of a trannies favorite things lol
>>65436657i'm not suggesting that every single component is replaced with an off-the-shelf equivalent but there's definitely huge cost savings to be had if some parts were standardized and built to a certain cost across multiple systems, especially stuff that isn't crucial to the functioning of the product, like a non-moving, non-structural part
>>65437569
>>65436964all those factories in Asia are automated, why can't you build the same factories in the US?Oh wait, we do.
As someone on the inside Because support and management and hr is 60% of the business and gets paid 60% of the salaries. Which sounds ok except that top execs take in 35%, and the actual techs who build all of this are tiny and underpaid and cycle in and out every six months leading to near total brain drain and loss of tribal knowledge. At this point, most defense companies in the US are glorified daycare for people whose job it is to make meetings.
>>65435643It would be unironically better if they just gave themselves money and stopped shitting up the production or society with their faggotry because they are going to get us all killed.
>>65435643Running national defense as a for-profit industry is the stupidest fucking idea anyone ever had.
>>65435643>to producing 60 tomahawks per year in the 2020s?Because we just needed to replace those that were ageing out. Now we dont.Now we will make 1000 a year to get stocks back up.https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/us_finally_backs_up_tomahawk_production_surge_with_record_229b_contract_over_1000_missiles_annually_after_iran_war_burned_through_stockpiles-19500.html
>>65436964>The US military invested 533 million on a General Dynamics artillery shell plant that would supply ukraine with all the shells it needed>it failed to produce a single usable shell>The "cutting edge" factory was supposed to fully automate shell production, instead, robots caught fire, the factories signature automated devices cracked the steel on the shells>General Dynamics brought in specialized flow-forming press equipment from a Turkish defense machinery subcontractor, Repcon>The Turkish machinery suffered constant breakdowns, with robotic arms catching fire, components smashing into each other, and presses requiring manual blows from sledgehammers to operate.>The situation never improved. The Army, which funded the factory, ordered work halted on two of the three production lines in August 2025.>By then, General Dynamics had blown through eight deadlines.>Here’s a photo of botched shells at the factory. They’re supposed to have perfectly smooth noses.>Instead, a machine mangled the metal into something that looks like the swirl of soft-serve ice cream.No refunds.
>>65438292literally how in the fuck
>>65438292>brought equipment from a Turkish subcontractorkekI bet the next day they bought some dry land in Florida.
>>65435679No you are actually retarded.The entire point of stuff like software is that whatever job isn't actually complex anymore. No, it doesn't mean we can do things that are more complex than we could before, it means the complex things aren't as complex anymore, and you can then scale them.Software, digitization, etc mean that things are SIMPLER. One guy figures out whatever problem and then that solution just gets copy and pasted forever. Problems where you need 1000 specialists, 100,000 workers, and leadership that literally does need complete knowledge of the problem in order to lead that mass IS more complicated.
>>65438292that was to add another 3000 a month and get the usa to making 10k a month instead of 7k
>>65438292america is an incompetent third world shit holeimport the third world become the third world
>>65438292>No refunds.It appears that they made Repkon buy this facility back from them, so I guess there are refunds in this case.
>>65438063>all those factories in Asia are automated, why can't you build the same factories in the US?>Oh wait, we do.No you dont. Mexicans are simply cheaper than machines and more easily replaced.
>>65438344>this is your brain on /pol/ kids>not even once
>>65435643Just as congress doesn't care to govern, they don't care to legislate. I think it's because they're all geriatrics collecting social security that really don't give a shit.
>>65436904BRICS isn't a superpower or even a real bloc. It's literally just China with Russia as a junior partner and ally of convenience.
>>65438463Mexicans are rapidly replacing the Chinese in our supply chains. I mean fire sale, China is no longer our #1 trade partner. Foxconn and co are setting up in Mexico, which is telling the Chinese to bugger off. The next century is going to be CanUSMex+Europe,Australia+new zealand, Japan, India, and Vietnam vs the league of belligerent assholes.
>>65438305Given that the way military contracts are structured, they pay wages in the realm of burger flipping, I would probably blame the lumpenproles they had to hire over the turkshit.
>>65436867The electronics and overall complexity of modern weapons cannot be reproduced at the same rate as WWII technology. We will not be able to go from a design to a working prototype manned aircraft in a few months like some aircraft did in WWII. Everything in the production chain is running on Just-In-Time manufacturing so there's hardly any stock to surge with anyway. >t. MIC worker
>>65435643US isn't russia, it isn't in a perpetual devastating forever war. There's no need really to increase production of things. Maybe interceptors for a year or 2.
>>65435643the fall of the soviet union ushered in some retards who thought it was the 'end of history', proceeded to outsource everything and de-industrialize the US because they wanted to siphon all the money up while keeping people occupied with cheap shit, and now they're finding out 'oh shit places don't just become free market democracies because the US survived the cold war and the USSR didn't.'neoliberalism in all it's forms is the most retarded stance on governance since pol pot.
>>65438559Do we have to share the same side with india though? Can't they stay neutral or something...
>>65435653And let's see since the 1940s we went from vacuum tubes to transistors, which initially had a lot of wiring that then got replaced by PCBs, we went from manual lathes and mills to CNC tools, robot arms that can move around every axis not to mention 80 years of material science and finite element analysis and so on, all of which allowing us to do more with less.But ultimately corruption is only one side of the coin. If America hadn't chosen to run an eternal temu trinket economy based on trade deficits, american shipbuilding would still be relevant, american machine tools would still be relevant and an entire sector of SMBs would have retained institutional knowledge. The complexity argument dies when we're looking at making essentially 1940s tech like 155mm Artillery. And the US taxpayer spent $500 million in 2023 on a plant in Texas that hasn't made a single part as of a few weeks ago. Why? Because they could not make tooling for it. Because the guy or gal who would make the tooling is either getting you your postmates order or doing only fans.And considering both the resistance against a domestic industrial policy by governments foreign and domestic as well as the horrible attempts at turning this around by the current administration there is very little hope to fix it.
>>65438155>Running national defense as a for-profit industry is the stupidest fucking idea anyone ever had.
>>65438292>General Dynamics brought in specialized flow-forming press equipment from a Turkish defense machinery subcontractor, Repcon>Turkish
>>65438637>Just-In-Time manufacturingAnd why is this the case? Did america run out of warehouse space or something? The US is perfectly happy keeping obsolete aircraft mothballed "just in case" , and even maintain a parking lot of F-22s that don't do anything 99% of the time, but god forbid there's a rocket motor factory sitting idle. Every day there are cars being made on assembly lines that have equally increased in complexity since the days of the Willys MB.
>>65438297>>65438292They did this because america can't into tooling. They only had the tooling for M107 shells. But they want to make M975. The new shell is a bit longer and heavier, but that's not what the tools are designed to handle. They did it anyway because they don't have capacity (workers and knowledge) to rebuild the tooling.
>>65438292Scammed by subhumans award.
>>65436550Safety standards are written in blood, the chinese use COTS more because they dont care as much about the lives of their people
>>65438984This is pure cope. There's actual safety and then there's bullshit. And even then there's way to do things efficiently and inefficiently. I don't remember if it was GE or P&W, one of the big airplane engine manufacturers they recently made a big deal out of...buying a robot arm. So that instead of waiting for safety sally #43 the robot can do the inspection and the sign off happens digitally.This is the state of the art of american manufacturing.
>>65438992>There's actual safety and then there's bullshit.You should build a submarine with advanced common sense like that.
>>65439005A disposable rocket is not a submarine.
>>65436678Its hard to say, staying in power for the IRGC is clearly a win condition but if it was the only one they'd have taken a deal by now. There must be something beyond status quo antebellum that they need to consider the outcome not a defeat
>>65436858I want to know where you retards keep getting this "the next major war will be short" idea fromUkraine was supposed to be a short ear and so was Iran, I see no reason why the big one would go differently especially since it will feature at least two combatants with the resources to go the distance by default
>>65439005You completely misunderstood me. And it's partly my fault for assuming you're in the know. Safety isn't a check box for the retards in high viz gear and clipboards to tick. It's a physical state of a thing.In your case that means the state of a submarine is "safe".Meanwhile most things that get branded as "safety" are actually compliance and while counterintuitive to luddites those things go in opposite directions. For starters, simply the act of a safety Sally existing diminishes ownership. It's even better when she's not actually a person but a phone number for a safety office or an actual third party organisation. The Mesquite plant was discussed in this thread for example. What wasn't mentioned yet is that they had an OSHA issue where fumes/smoke or some such posed a hazard. So everybody has to drop everything and safety sally does her thing and finds no fumes and ticks her box. BECAUSE EVERYTHING WAS SHUT OFF.There is an entire sub industry that lives solely off of generating corrective actions for findings and nothing else.
>>65436678Keeping the strait closed until the US pays them and fucks off to let them collect their totally-not-a-toll. Bonus points for doing a Carter 2.0 to Trump.>>65436721>Hormuz traffic at less than 8% of pre-war numbers and trending downwardsSeems like they're winning, yes.>Last I checked Irans economoy was falling apartOkay, and? This is an existential conflict for Iran. They have nothing to lose from fighting to the last man, woman, child, bullet, coin and drop of blood.>and all they can doIs keep the strait closed, which creates an economic war of attrition they are effectively guaranteed to win because, again, they have nothing to lose and everything to win. It's a game of chicke, and Iran's car doesn't have a steering wheel.>>65436734So how's all those bases between Jordan and Diego Garcia doing? Oh, they're still closed, too?>forgets to mention that the lack of trade hurts them even more than does the usIn the delusions of economically illiterate MAGA-tards only, I'm afraid. Again: You have something to lose. Iran does not. Cope, seethe and dilate more about it.
>>65439043I mean their country has effectively been destroyed. Much as poltards want to deny it, Iran is in really deep shit right now. Things are barely held together by the unifying effect of an outside adversary waging war on their soil, but even with that, they've had to execute tens of thousands (conservative estimate) to hundreds of thousands (high estimate) of political dissidents. Various high level officials have been promoted and demoted and shuffled at insanely fast rates, which is generally considered to be a sign of internal disunity in the government. Their regional militias are either already on death row (Hezbollah in Lebanon) or are about to get their shit kicked in by governments that previously tolerated them (Hezbollah in Iraq, which is actually a completely different organization). Their industrial base has been systematically destroyed and would take well over a decade to rebuild even under optimal conditions with unrestricted foreign trade. Middle class households now spend their entire income on food, and lower class households are facing imminent risk of famine.So with all that in mind, how long do you think the IRGC is going to last if they accept a status quo antebellum? No matter how many dissidents they execute, there has been too much damage done, and the people are NOT going to put up with more hardliner bullshit unless they can come away with major concessions. But really their only bargaining chip was the GOP midterm performance, and by now it seems clear that the Trump admin just going to bite the bullet and take the loss to keep the war going. And with that, Iran really doesn't have any leverage at all. So they're not going to get those concessions, not now, and not ever.In a lot of ways this parallels russia actually - the country is likely to implode as soon as peace comes, so the Iranian leadership desperately want to keep the war going as long as possible.
>>65436982>be MAGAt>still coping, seething and dilating>strait still closed>oil markets still ailing>gas prices keep rising>strategic reserves still getting emptier and emptier>Trump still incohenretly screeching and ping-ponging between impotent threats and begging the Iranians for a deal>US bases between Jordan and Diego Garcia still rubble, 5th Fleet HQ still closed>tankers trying to run the strait still exploding>can't ship anything>can't even properly feed the sailors because losing the bases fucked up logistics>no strait, no balls, no plausible way to not lose the war, down to coping and seething about muh k/d like with every war the US lost>come to /k/ to keep whining because /pol/ isn't enough
>>65439076As an addendum, posters like >>65439067 are a great exemplar of these dire straits. Notice how any criteria he can establish for a supposed military victory revolve around the country not having anything left to bomb, or around a constructed war goal that is not relevant to either party in the actual war, and which is increasingly seeming irrelevant on the global scale. Yet it is still proudly touted as a sign of military victory, in place of any actual tangible advantages. This post has no deeper thoughts about how Iran can survive, no deeper reasoning about how control of the strait might be used as leverage - because the answer to both of these is "it can't." Instead, the post is conceived with a foregone conclusion (Iran = winning and invincible) and then written to twist reality to support that conclusion, regardless of the actual course of the war or strategic situation.
>thread about military industry and cost effectiveness>gets derailed by Americans talking about IranHonestly scary to know you're over the target and burgers are still in denial 3 decades into temu trinketry. But don't worry it's all just trump and his reverse Midas touch. Nothing to see here, move along.
>>65439091The MIC is horrendously corrupt, but that doesn't change the fact that you obviously made this thread to start this shill war without jannies banning you instantly for posting a politics thread. Like who the fuck do you think you're fooling? Lol
>>65439043>There must be something beyond status quo antebellum that they need to consider the outcome not a defeatThe status quo antebellum included getting bombed at will by Israel and US, so they're probably looking to make that not part of the status quo that they return to.
>>65439090>>65439076>wall of text with mumbojumbo.It is not disputed that america can fly bombs down the chimney of every single house in Iran until they run out. What is disputed, and historical fact, is that an air campaign alone has never successfully coerced an enemy. The tactical success of a near 100% effective precision bombing campaign is not relevant and america has bombed more countries with more bombs both in the precision age and before and it has never coerced the enemy into signing American demands unless substantial ground forces were in play. And even then there's the German example where they really really really didn't want to be occupied by the soviets and an american bombing run followed by a tank push sounded rather nice by comparison.America wants Iran to do X. Iran isn't going to be persuaded to to X from the air alone. And that is the reality Americans are desperately shielding themselves from even though the historical data is there for anyone to see.
>>65439104>an air campaign alone has never successfully coerced an enemyWhat made Serbia end their chimpout?There were boots on the ground but they didn't go in to Serbia proper did they?Just BTFO some Bosnian-Serbs in BH I think.
>>65439097I came into this thread 150+ posts late so IDK what you're talking about. I just think a sound industrial base that actually has the skills, supply chains and cost effectiveness to mass produce things and replenish losses is important to any military piece of equipment. We have plenty of threads discussing why X,Y or Z was a stupid design or ineffective and most of the reasons go back to manufacturing quantity or quality being mismatched to the resources available and the commitments the military had at the time. It's not my fault that the US keeps shooting itself in the foot for 30 years.
>>65439104Japan and Serbia come to mind as two examples that did exactly what America wanted because of incessant air-rape. This is also pointed out to you in every thread, crazy how you keep forgetting!You have also failed to explain how a country that winds up as a bombed out ruin in conditions of starvation with its regional influence annihilated and its entire military destroyed can be considered "winning." That was the main point of the posts you replied to, I guess you just simply forgot to actually respond to it, since you were too busy reposting the same slop that was just refuted.
>>65439118Then in that case I'd advise you to make an actual honest thread about it once this one dies or gets deleted. This was just a bait thread from the start, as seen in the OP that is just a simple false equivalency (1940s shipbuilding vs 2020s precision guided munitions) tacked onto a real concern (MIC corruption)
>>65439122>You have also failed to explain how a country that winds up as a bombed out ruin in conditions of starvation with its regional influence annihilated and its entire military destroyed can be considered "winning."By vatnik standards, the heavy bag at my gym has defeated me in countless fights.
>>65439131kek
>>65439113That's actually the perfect example. Srebenica and Zeba (so called UN safe zones) were overrun in 95 after 3 years of air power basically achieving nothing. Then you had the ground offensive operation storm with the NATO airpower operation deliberate force. Those two things combined pushed all the way to Banja Luka. Now counter this with Kosovo in 99. The KLA was nowhere as capable as the Croatian army and despite an air campaign for 78 days things only changed on the ground at the very end when the KLA made gains at Mount Pastrik. Plus some other factors like Russia no longer backing Milosevic and a potential threat of a NATO ground war. TL;DR: It never works when you're just having air power but no effective ground force.
>>65439122See>>65439149Japan actually also didn't surrender because of the air war alone. They surrendered because they literally could not sustain themselves as they relied on imports and the US Navy had absolutely rekt their merchant marine. But even if I'd ignore that there is a unique flavor to dropping nukes over JDAMs. And just to be 100% clear: airpower ALONE has never broken anyone's back. Doesn't mean it isn't useful or even necessary to do so. It just needs to be backed up by other factors.
>>65439104>What is disputed, and historical fact, is that an air campaign alone has never successfully coerced an enemy.stop going into every thread and producing dogshit. I even gave you a recent example of this literally happening but you went >nuh uh
>>65439156Japan surrendered because the time was right. Stalin wanted to invade and the US hitting them with the atomic bomb was a godsend for them that kept the red army out. The Japanese bitch and moan about it, but in reality their country was never split in half like Stalin wanted.
>>65439163You have not provided a single example of that though. Every successful coercion of an enemy state since the airplane was invented involved at the very least ground elements if not other externalities like losing political patrons. Meanwhile I can go through the list:>Germany, 42-45German productivity actually rises despite RAF night bombing campaign>Japan 42-45LeMay turns 67 cities into rice cookers, kills more japs than both nukes combined and even then they face the US Navy running wild around their waters and the Soviets invaded Manchuria.>Korea 50-53US Air force essentially levels Pyongyang, destroys irrigation dams and it still requires an actual ground war to get to the armistice>Vietnam, Operation rolling thunderThree years of bombing changed literally nothing. As a sidenote: Linebacker II was a tiny operation by comparison but more effective because it didn't try to coerce the north to abandon it's insurgency and the US had normalized relations with China who were now leaning on Hanoi to go back to the Paris deal the NVA had signed a few months prior anyway. Minimalist ask by comparison. >Iraq 1991At the tactical level the interdiction of Iraqi forces was a great success. But the decapitation strikes to trigger a regime collapse in Iraq? Utterly failed. And combined with a highly effective ground war too. Already talked about Bosnia and Kosovo above.So where is this magical air campaign that - without a ground war or external factors - lead to regime change/collapse/signing of surrenders etc?
>>65439104>America wants Iran to do X. Iran isn't going to be persuaded to to X from the air alone.On the other Iran can persuade America to do X with just bombing them with drones and ballistic missiles.
>>65439209>lead to regime change/collapse/signing of surrenders etc?oh, so now we go from 'defeat the enemy' to 'total war style surrender', ok!
>>65439234Read my original claim. It's about using air power to COERCE the enemy. That is what never works. That is the goalpost of turning operational target sets into defeating the enemy. Defeat isn't measured in numbers of bombs dropped it's measured in: Are you fucking ready to do what I want you to do? And airpower alone has never managed to convert the former into the latter.
faulty logic, faulty evidence, and fake news all aroundis there even a point to doing a detailed refutation of all this turdie shitposting? seriously?>>65439097>The MIC is horrendously corruptyou keep saying this but you can't deliver any solid numbers which aren't attributable to other factorsif the MIC was supposedly "horrendously" corrupt, other countries should be able to accomplish what the US MIC does at lower price points. they can't.unless you claim they are all even more corrupt, in which case the US MIC is the best MIC in the world, by dint of being least worst.this is called "industry benchmarking"furthermore we can also compare US MIC results vs other industries, to see whether they produce worse results than other US and non-US industries. do they? no, they don't. US weapons tech is still the most advanced in the world, and it comes at a cheaper cost than everyone else, for that standard of capability.>>65438898>why is this the case?non-JIT requires massive investments in holding more stocks of raw materials and spare capacity at different levels of the supply chain, which is costly. the defence budget would have to be higher than it is right now to accommodate thatand AYRT is wrong, the Tomahawk and Patriot production lines do actually have significant spare capacity. that is why they have indeed managed to triple production of both these missiles in 2026 vs last year, whereas Europe has no such plans in the very near future to increase missile production, because they don't have the spare capacity>>65438155>Comrade Scientist, sit here at this desk, you will invent cutting-edge world-class weapons for free, it is your duty to das Vaterland / za Rodinu>>65437072>US already spends large part of the GDP then during WWIIas a percentage? hell fucking no, turdie>>65436858>A: that's happening right now and production is barely being increasedsure, hon
>>65439230Iran isn't banking on persuading the US, it knows it can'tit's banking on the rest of the Gulf/world to do it for them if they start to feel the squeeze from them fucking with the strait
>>65436113>I just found the breakdown of public/private spending to be interestingyeah this is a major major concern, because in the EU, it means they are basically at Communist centrally-planned economy level, when half the country's economic output is government-controlledfor comparison, the USSR in 1989 had an estimated official GDP equivalent to US$ 789 billion, but the shadow economy might bung this up to 900 billion or 1 trillion$510 billion of this was government controlled, or about 50-55% of the economyFrance is the worst-hit, and officially 56-57% of its GDP is made up of government spendingFrance in 2026 literally has the same centrally-planned economy as the USSR in 1989>>65436090>US spendingmore like 40%but yeah it's not great either>>65435741>state capitalismit's called "socialism">>65435966indeed
>muh MICEisenhower was warning about the MIC making up too large a proportion of the US economy at a time when US defence spending constituted 9% of GDPcurrent defence spending is nowhere near that level, so the hurr durr MIC argument is nowhere near relevantbut of course America's enemies would want the US to reduce its defence capabilities the same way Europe did, culminating in Russia invading Crimea the very same year they hit their all-time low
>>65438559>Mexicans are rapidly replacing the Chinese in our supply chains.The components still come from China, they are just rebadged in Mexico. And I meant that while the rest of the world went to CNC machines and robotization in the 1990s, America went with bio-robots aka mexicans and kept their old factory machinery.
>>65439283First of all defense spending should atrophy over time as GDP increases if the size of the military stays the same and one does not go to war.But the questions I have is: how much bang are we getting for our buck? Why is it acceptable to spend $500 million on an artillery plant that doesn't make artillery shells?Maybe defense companies should be private instead of public companies to reduce the high time preference behaviour that quarterly shareholder numbers reward?Why are we taking defense contractors at their word when they promise to 4x their production when they don't have the supply chain to do so? Why is cost+time sacred and GOCO sacrilegious? Why are we prohibiting our own military from making repairs and instead get charged $3000 for a tiny switch that grounds an entire airframe?If the MIC isn't this device to launder tax money into these companies and actually a vital part of national security then there's a lot of reforms to be done before they should get a single cent more.
>>65438898>And why is this the case? Did america run out of warehouse space or something?Because just in time means that you dont need to have an inventory, so lower cost, meaning more profit but also no resilence against transport shocks. Its a financial invention meant to monetize transportation and digital inventory tracking.
>>65438292How do you fuck up the coning this badly? It's literally a roller pressing on a heated spinning tube.
>>65438865Maybe we'll get lucky and Pakistan will nuke'em.
>>65439351Turkey>>65439353We've been saying that for 28 years, I've lost hope.
>>65438292reading the article on this really makes it seem more like it was a test than an actual plan to supply ukriane. like a 'we are now at war and need to build a munitions plant IMMEDIATELY' scenario. as far as gov spending goes half a bil isnt that bad.
>>65439325>defense spending should atrophy over time as GDP increases if the size of the military stays the same and one does not go to warno, it should notmany operating budgets, not just defence, are given in "% of x" terms because it is recognised as a rough rule of thumb that this expense is connected to X, and the greater X is, the more you need to spend on itin this case, a simple analogy is: the more valuable your property, the more guards you need to hire to guard it, because if you protect more property with fewer guards, the risk to the enemy (which is also calculated as a % of the reward) is reducedcome on, it's intuitive: would you risk robbing a 4-man cash truck for $100,000? nowould you risk it for $100 million? much more worth the consideration, amirite?furthermore, using a % figure means the budget can be scaled up and down whether it's a multi-trillion-dollar economy or in the high billions>how much bang are we getting for our buck?see >>65439241>Why is it acceptablemistakes happencan you suggest a system that is 100% mistake-free?>Maybe defense companies should be private instead of public companies>GOCO sacrilegiousprivate companies have even less public oversightyou can read RTX's financial statements anytimewhat about Fire Point's?>Why are we taking defense contractors at their worddid you have access to their pitch?you must be very well-connected then>instead get charged $3000 for a tiny switchthe $3,000 includes a lot of other work>before they should get a single cent more>prease dlop evelything and spend zelo on defence, Amelicanssure, Chang>>65439340>Its a financial invention meant to monetize transportation and digital inventory trackingJIT dates back to before computers, and the reason is actually to reduce the cost of keeping large amounts of stock on handthis is diploma-level accounting knowledge, if you don't know this, you're really not qualified to comment
>>65439257I don't agree with your assessment of the soviet what % of the soviet economy was or wasn't centrally controllednor you assertion that the Eu is basically a commy centrally planned economy.most of the spending issued by EU member states aren't direct market interventions. what does directly impact on the market is regulated trough the EU's public tender framework that prevents simply side stepping competition.>more like 40%it's 44%
>>65439113>What made Serbia end their chimpout?The economic embargo, lack of fuel, hyperinflation, the success of operation Storm,Operation Sana, and massive internal discontent in Belgrade.
>>65439113>What made Serbia end their chimpout?Serbs, first and foremost. You will struggle to find a more cowardly people outside of Turkey.But beyond that, the Yugo economy was highly integrated and interdependent, with much of heavy military industry happening inside of Serbia, off of everyone else's tax money. When Croatia and the rest split off and stopped paying said tax money, Serbia was left with a bunch of military factories building components for vehicles and machines that are supposed to be assembled elsewhere and no way to fund them.As a result, the Yugo/Serbian economy took a sharp dive and broke down in ~1998 or so. They've since reformatted them and now basically function as Russia did in the 90s, with export focused military factories, but back then everything was fucked and they couldn't handle the economic pressure.
>>65439371>JIT dates back to before computers, and the reason is actually to reduce the cost of keeping large amounts of stock on hand>this is diploma-level accounting knowledge, if you don't know this, you're really not qualified to commentIt wasnt a practical thing until the late 90s because the tech to do fully automated inventory tracking wasnt there yet so you had to keep some stock on hand. Now its technically feasible to run with zero stock provided everything works perfectly. If there is any disruption, such as russian drones landing somewhere in your transport chain, the entire scheme collapses.
>>65439412>most of the spending issued by EU member states aren't direct market interventions. what does directly impact on the market is regulated trough the EU's public tender framework that prevents simply side stepping competition."the government isn't directly impacting the market because any tenders are subject to the rules written by the government"pleaseif I were to say that corporations ackshually don't have undue influence on their in-house employee conduct rules because those rules are regulated by the employee manual they wrote, you would rightfully object vehemently>it's 44%what's your source for state and local spending?state and local, 2024: $5 trillion (US Census, no later data as yet)federal, 2024: $7 trillion (US Treasury)GDP: $30 trillionthat's 40%
>>65439371The fundamental problem is the obscene price. Whatever the reason for that obscene price is what must be fixed. And I don't need to access to some secret pitch when I can publicly look up patriot deliveries and procurement figures, look at the relevant OTA's and then compare notes: more missiles are supposed to be made but without any increase in rocket motors being made. Add in the average delivery time and then it's clear the timeline physically can not be met.>Chang I am convinced you are more of a Chinese shill because the only one benefitting from the wasteful use of US resources are the enemies of the US.
>>65439366>>65439351That's actually not the way the Mesquite facility is supposed to work. Instead of the traditional forging it used this fancy flow-forming process.Think of a fast spinning machine that squeezes and rolls out metal like clay on a potters wheel. That's what the turks sold and I hate to be the guy defending them but it was absolutely known by GD and Army that this entire process only worked for the specific steel and shape of the M107. They knew it was basically unknown if it even would work for M795, and if it did what changes they needed to make.On paper FAR 9.7 exists to protect against this type of scam, but Congress decided competitive bidding and oversight over UCAs is for pussies so just build the airplane while you fly it.
>>65439460>the price is obscene because I say it ismmhmm
>>65439480Are you dumb? I can spend a year working by hand carving the flight control stick for a UH60 out of pure marble. I can pay myself minimum wage to do it and the price will conform to the time spent on it and the materials used. And let's not forget that while I'm at it said helicopter is grounded due to lack of parts.That still isn't an efficient use of resources and the army itself has recognized it and wanted right to repair language added to their contracts for this exact reason.
>>65439371>this is diploma-level accounting knowledge, if you don't know this, you're really not qualified to commentYou are supposed to keep track of contemporary developments and not rest on laurels of your 40 years old diploma. (avoid old doctors btw)JIT is widely considered to be a dead end which was only successful for a while because the originators (Japan) paid huge premium for storage space compared to their - relatively short - supply chains. It doesn't work as a general approach AND is particularly destructive in case of the defense industry with the risk of supply disruptions being inherent there. Literal nation-level cataclysms happened when some governments attempted to JIT their energy supplies kek.
>>65439500personally I have always considered JIT to be marketing fluff for the much simpler and much more unsexy longstanding principle of "keep your inventory holdings as low as possible, retard"but that's by the bythe claim I was addressing was:>Its a financial invention meant to monetize transportation and digital inventory trackingContext matters, anon
>>65439454it's good to see that you agree that your assessment of the soviet economy is bogus>in-house employee conduct rulesit isn't in-house, those are EU regulations with direct effect, control and enforcement on member states as to what requires a public tender, what the rules for those tenders are and how to award them.furthermore the house committee on small businesses estimated in 2013 that between 20% and 30% of federal dolars go to non-bid or sole source bid contracts.Eurostat stated that in 2021 15.8% of bids weren't competitive>44% my source was simply googling it because I didn't want to dive into it.there's a lot of differing data out there now that I'm looking at the underlying sources frankly I'm appalled by how bad the information is compared to Eurostats yearly reportingI did find this website https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/detailsI'm not sure how reliable it is especially since the total spending estimate (13,33) doesn't line up with adding up it's parts (14,57) so it's 43.7% or 47,7% pick your poison I guess point being that the gap between the US and the EU weighted average is a lot smaller than what most people would assume it would be.
>>65439505Maintaining on hand inventory is wasteful and expensive.
>>65439518>it's good to see that you agree that your assessment of the soviet economy is bogusnot at allI just didn't want to belabour the point, since you were at the>nuh uhstage of baseless denial>my source was simply googling itah yes>those are EU regulationsstill a government, even if it's not national governmentstill a Soviet-style centralisation of the economy in the hands of bureaucrats>15.8% of bids weren't competitivepleasewe all know how to write a tender in a way that shortlists just the contractors we want and excludes the othersinb4 nuh uh EU regulations are perfect, have no loopholes, and cannot be gamedbesides, tender rules notwithstanding, governments can simply choose not to tender, by reducing spending in that sectorand vice versawhat can Eu tender rules do to help e.g. the missile manufacturing sector when the government simply decides "we are not going to buy missiles, we are going to buy artillery shells", and they control half the economy?zilch
>>65439530>I don't care about the data and sources you provided>I'll just rantgood to know no one should take your posts serious
>>65439537>ESLsuck my dick
>>65439545>ad hominem timeit's okay annon you can just go do something else
>>65439547>mentally ill retard spamming the entire board at 1 post per minute for days in a rowgo take a bathroom break schizo.
>>65438879>american shipbuilding would still be relevant,It would be as irrelevant as American cars, because Korea and Japan would still make better ships cheaper.
>>65439530>a Soviet-style centralisation of the economy in the hands of bureaucratsso just like teh US budget, except the EU has rules and publishes data to make those rules enforceable?Curious.
>>65439627Korean and Japanese automakers build cars in the US. Japan imports all their Camrys from Toyota's Kentucky plant.
>>65436861Think you need to figure in the cost of the launch platforms here too.
>>65439653Because of legal barriers. If they didn't have to, they probably wouldn't. But of course, the best way to get any manufacturing done in the US is to not let American companies be in charge of it.
>>65439643>the US government doesn't have rules and doesn't publish data
>>65439505>>Its a financial invention meant to monetize transportation and digital inventory trackingYes it is, see>>65439526>Maintaining on hand inventory is wasteful and expensive.From a systemic viewpoint JIT is a way to monetize timely transport and highly precise inventory tracking down to individual items. It is also not a "free lunch", it is something that greatly increases your vulnerability to external disruptions. This trade off is not considered at all because JIT makes number go up.
>>65439750It's all about avoiding tariffs and catering to the most influential consumer market on the planet. The primary difference between working at Toyota and Ford is union membership.
>exclusive low production run things cost money>smooth brained normies call this corruptionI mean it aint perfect but qt least we actually get what we pay for. The russian government has full control of their defense industry and they're lucky to get one third of the things they buy
>>65439882>JIT is a way to monetizeI'm not sure you're using the word "monetize" how it is commonly used in business, which is "to obtain additional revenue"to "monetise inventory tracking" does not mean to calculate the cost of inventory tracking, it means to find a way to sell an inventory tracking system and get money for it(which is actually what SAP SE does)cost savings do not count as additional revenue in this contextfurthermore, JIT pre-dates digital inventory trackingas >>65439526 somewhat trollishly points out, the main benefit of JIT that us bean-counters recognised is the reduced inventory holding costfor example, take Walmart's 1975 financials>https://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/11/112761/ARs/1975AR.pdfof the assets of $75 million, $50 million comprises inventoryworking capital is $30 millionthis is funded by $32 million of capital and debt at an average cost of capital of 7.4%, or $2.3 millionnet income was $6.4 millionnow, if you could find a way to reduce your inventory holdings by say 20%, or $10 million, simply by holding less inventory through efficient JIT inventory management, you could cut your cost of capital by $0.8 million and increase profits by 12%, just like that that's nothing to sneeze atbit of a simplified example, but I think you see the point>This trade off is not considered at all because JIT makes number go upit is a well-known considerationmany organisations believe the cost savings outweigh the risksbefore you immediately retort "that's stupid!", first ask yourself, how much are you going to pay to keep how much more inventory of finished goods and/or raw material on hand, and where you will get the cash fromdefence is a fun example. ask yourself, how much does it cost to keep how many tanks, howitzers, combat jets, warships, and their munitions in inventorycome up with a proper figure, then work within the defence budget, and explain where you'll find the savings. be specific.
>>65439627>industry has institutional knowledge>instead of throwing this away for a quarterly stock price increase this is maintained for years as a point of pride>industry is better than competitionThere is a lesson in here somewhere.
>>65439526Right up until you end up paying out the ass to airlift 217 bolts to the factory floor to stop your entire line from stopping. But this is more of a thing with actual mass production, not the bespoke defense contractor that makes a dozen or a hundred of a thing in a year.
>>65439439>Now its technically feasible to run with zero stock provided everything works perfectlyIt wasn't really visible to the public but there was a technological revolution in inventory messaging around the 2000s.Prior to then, the infrastructure for a supplier to be alerted when a cashier scans a can of beans at the checkout, wasn't quite there.A couple of companies around the west developed similar but competing technologies in this area around the same time and in each country, basically only one of these companies got it right and won the race and secured the vast majority of inventory/logistical messaging customers. Then the US one, which had gotten the richest and also pioneered A/B testing of sales pitches which they used to capture basically the entire market by running the statistically provably best sales pitch out of every logistical software sales team anywhere, this company then moved in to the other markets and bought up the existing big fish with their endless pockets of money, set some dev teams to create compatible message portals to translate messages between the two systems and moved the sales team managers in to engineer their sales strategy and capture their own market better than they ever could before.I worked at one of these companies for a while, before it got bought out by the US giant for $70m or so.The tech means that a store's database subtracting one from shelf inventory, either when the cashier processed the payment, or possibly while it was scanned and then reversed if the sale was aborted, the system could handle both sorts of behaviour, anyway when the store said it's on-shelf inventory, or general inventory if they weren't sophisticated, had one less X, the system messages our platform who message the client HQ's DB and let's them know. Then they tell us to tell the supplier the same thing. Eventually the number reaches a threshold that's in a contract somewhere and the manufacturer ships a box.
>>65439750It's cheaper to make Camrys and Accords in the USA than to ship them here. The main difference is in sourcing. I've worked for Honda and Honda will source everything they can from Mexico, sometimes it's cheaper to get parts from Ohio and Michigan. There are hundreds of small business suppliers to Honda all over the map, and these guys are staffed by temp laborers which are much cheaper than union auto workers. Honda engineers build all of the quality jigs and design the exact processes so that it's nearly impossible to normally send them a bad component. Coiled steel goes i one end and presses progressively stamp parts out loading them into massive gaylords with 5000+ parts in each one. Each vehicle is made from parts from hundreds of different suppliers and assembled in Marysville, OH.A tomahawk will have a much smaller assembly line, because these are not easy to just store. Each TLAM is 21 feet long with an 8 foot wingspan. Where do you store these? if you want 1,000 of them, you'll need to maintain each and every one of them in a state of constant readiness so that when it's loaded onto a ship it can just be fired. this is unfathomably expensive.
>>65436790>Using fiat (de)based numbers.Classic rookie mistake.A good recent example of why this doesn’t work is that japan’s export numbers started going up bigly on paper shortly after the yen started devaluing. But when you count for tonnage of exports it was actually the same or down.
>>65438898J-I-T is a Japanese psyop.Though they also drink their own koolaid, the Japanese packaged it as business strategy bullshito to sell to naive American MBAs.The imperial Japanese Army relied on J-I-T in WW2. And half of them starved, lol.Not really a great strategy in war or business.
>>65435643https://www.propublica.org/article/general-dynamics-artillery-factory-failed
>>65439657The launch platforms are reusable.
>>65439478>fancy flow-forming processLet me guess - they save 5 bucks on the machinist having to lathe down the sides.
>>65435653nah
>>65436494>more space/weightso?>aren't navalizeduse case?> are easier to shoot down,its fine because they have 10x of them> don't have satellite downlinkuse case?>anti-ship capabilitiesits a missile anon, of course it has anti-ship capabilities, what the fuck are you talking about?>and are less accurateits fine because they have 10x of them
>>65436306>Iran lostwhat an odd thing to say
>>65438292>Turkish machinery
>>65443411I got more posts deleted pointing out how the EU's lack of taking defense and russia seriously fucked ukraine over than pointing out how retarded the iran war is
>>65443637imagine trusting a monkethe board activity certainly suffered because of it
>>65443411>instead of sending them to Ukraine where they could have done some goodlol yeah american tomahawks being used to blow up civilian infrastructure in russia. a great look. no this slugfest should stay between ukirane and russia now that they're both just terror bombing.
seething russian shill noises, between retarded reddit spacing
>>65435643Explanation: So basically our money went from making multiple battleships per year, to focusing our funds on keeping 1 million obese black women from dying of obesity per year
>>65443787>seething russian shill noises, between retarded reddit spacingReddit spacing was invented on 4chan, arguably we were the ground zero of shill posters too.You're not actually wrong though.
>>65435646>They would kill youOnly the teamsters that work there would try some silly shit like that. Anyone who gets their pay from the taxpayer is a coward.
>>65435643Peace time vs war time production.
>>65439975American industry was already below par in shipbuilding by the 70s.
