When the recent ruling leading to less restrictions on short barreled rifles, I'd love to hear what you think would be the optimal home defense setup.>What rifle would you have?>What caliber would it be?>What would be the barrel length and overall length of the rifle?>What specific ammo would you keep loaded in it? (HP? softpoint? good ole m855?)>Any attachments or accessories?I personally have a pistol-braced AR with a 10.5 inch barrel loaded with 55 gr ballistic tip .223 with a Sig Sauer red dot.
>>65438769Same answer it's always been. >12 ga>#4 buck>barrel down to the mag cap
>>65438769Gonna do a no-form-1 9 inch SBR .300 Memeout build with the same-day no-form-4 cal suppressor I bought last week.Talk me out of it.
>>65438785I thought about getting a .300 Blackout upper at some point, but thats only if I get a suppressor too.What ammo you considering?
>>65438769>>What rifle would you have?AR15>>What caliber would it be?5.56>>What would be the barrel length and overall length of the rifle?20">>What specific ammo would you keep loaded in it? (HP? softpoint? good ole m855?)M193 ball>>Any attachments or accessories?no
>>65438769Guys, what if we shorten the stock and made the barrel even more longer?
>>65438769>What rifle would you have?Not a rifle, a PCC. Civilian MP5SD>What caliber would it be?9x19mm.>What would be the barrel length and overall length of the rifle?5.75 inches, 31.77 inches>What specific ammo would you keep loaded in it? (HP? softpoint? good ole m855?)Subsonic hollow points. Quiet, compliment the suppressor, and won’t cause too much collateral damage. >Any attachments or accessories?Red dot, light, and (if you live in an area with lots of crime) a FRT
>>65438833I like it, but I don't you think something like that would be too expensive for home defense?A Ruger PC Charger with a stock, suppressor, and red dot would be quite a bit cheaper, be shorter in length, and also provide higher velocities with its 6.5 inch barrel.
>>65438840Turkish and Paki MP5 clones aren’t much more expensive than the PC charger and are often on par with official HK quality (I know POF specifically is an OEM manufacturer for HK). Unironically the most expensive part of the package would be keeping a stock of subsonic hollow pointsAs for the length issue, the MP5 aftermarket is quite large. The stock could be swapped out or removed.
Speaking of Ruger, I have a Ruger 5.7 that I like a lot, so I'm considering picking up the LC Charger.What kind of velocity increase can I expect out of a 40gr hollowpoint (Hornady Black)?
>>65438792Definitely subsonic. As for manufacturer , i have no idea. I want the build to be dead quiet, or as close as possible. Will probably be using a BCM 9 inch upper for it slapped on whatever lower.
>>65438833I love the MP5SD
Quick question: What picatinny folding stock would look best on a Ruger PC Charger?
what a drongo topic
>>65438785We still gotta engrave our no-form-1s?
>>65439522First, I doubt you're actually Australian enough to use that slang.Second, look I was a little drunk when I made the thread, cut me some slack, okay?
>>65438769Short shorts talked to the FBI:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oTKsnWg95MThey're apparently in favor of a 10.5 with a 1/7 twist and 64grain bonded soft points.
>>65438840Not sure you'd want higher velocity while running a can. For hearing safe indoor use I want to keep things subsonic.
>>65438833Been thinking about this too. Only thing holding me back is that i either have to give ~4k to HK or 1.5k to roaches who allegedly have HK quality
Suppressed and SBR'd 5.56 bullpup with 75gr TAP is the optimal choice.
>>65438769Currently I have the OP rifle with all the requisite tactical doo dads and gizmos (light, laser, rds, silencer). The only issue I have is the lack of 5.56 subsonic cycling loads, which in an ideal world we would have some 85-90ish grain subsonic soft point. Currently I just use OTMs, yeah it's noisy but it's far preferable to raw gunfire. Presently though I think it's the ideal HD gun in terms of both form factor and lethality
>>65438769According to the FBI, 11.5" barrel with a 62-75grain bonded/defense ammo 1/7 twist is optimal up to 2-300yards.
>>65439626>SBR bullpupDoesn't that defeat the point of a bullpup? Unless its like a PS90 which if goofy without the short barrel
Maybe 2000's thinking or isreali thinking, but .300blk or 5.56, bulpup, single point shoulder sling, tmp foregrip, non reciprocating charging handle or top mount, ambi fire controls.There are a range of military style PDWs in this configuration, there's a reason for that, but they're all fairly unobtainable in either full auto or sporter semi. And with the proliferation of soft armour a lot of the ones chambered in sub caliber are obsolete. Id still pick one over a regular AR though, if money wasn't an object, i just had one. This sort of goes hand in hand with the shoot first, shoot at noises, let the lawyer sort it out kind of doctrine. Survival as a priority.
>>65438833The MP5SD was not a PDW, it's not a good choice because it lacks power, it's defeated by soft armour, the mag is too long and so is the barrel with the suppressor. It's really quiet a specialised piece, hence its rarity. There was a PDW variant of the mp5, which you'd always take for self defence, but while the SD fills is neich role in semi, the PDW variant really doesn't.
>>65439802It doesn't defeat the point, it's the entire point. The one pictured is a 13" barrel which still zaps while being shorter than an AR even with the can.
>>65439802Not him but bulpup is really for when barrel length is going to be a weakness. Your high velocity rifle calibres suffer the most when the barrel is too short. If you want to run a suppressor for cwb barrel length is going to be a serious issue so it's a very wise choice.
5.56 bullpup with 24" barrel slinging 40gr polymer tipped varmint rounds at extreme velocities.
>>65439827It’s a tool to stop home invading ghetto dwellers and tweakers, not the feds. The people it’s intended for do not wear body armor.
>>65439575You could buy one of PTR’s MP5s for a couple hundred more than one of the Turkish clones. PTR definitely isn’t the company it used to be but it should still be reasonably put together and do you good
Unless you want to shoot intruders through your walls you want a carbine with a high velocity and lightweight projectile.FMJ 9mm is going to penetrate straight through, while a faster 5.56mm FMJ is probably going to yaw around and get stuck in furniture.Honestly a supressed P90 with hollow points is ideal. The suppressor is for the homeowner and family's hearing. Indoor muzzle blast is actually somewhat disorienting to people in front of the muzzle.
>>65438769One mile long
>>65438869The difference in wounding between FMJ and hollowpoint pistol rounds is incremental. You actually lose stopping power if they overexpand before reaching the spine. .40 also has a rounder bullet than a pointed 9mm or 5.7mm so it yaws less in flesh. Yawing in flesh is ideal.
>>65439841>Your high velocity rifle calibres suffer the most when the barrel is too shortIn a world of 10.5" suppressed 5.56mm AR-15 used by all the military and police operators, I think your boomer logic doesn't hold.
>>65438769Unironically a suppressed flux raider would be perfect. Compact, handy, modular, accurate for the short distances you’d be engaging an intruder in, and you can load it with hollow points and not have to worry about over penetration. Literally the only con is that you would need to willingly buy a P320.
>>65439981Not sure about PTR. I have heard their stuff can be questionable, although that info is a few years old. I'll look into recent reviews.
>>65440043PTR are very solid.
>>65440031Except pistol calibers are terrible ballistically speaking.
>>65440008P90 has dogshit ballistics. I would much rather any 9mm or .45 with frangible ammo, or No.4 Buckshot.
>>65440124Doesn’t really matter for the intended use case. In a home invasion scenario (assuming you don’t live in a mansion, which if you do you should just have private security), you’re going to be engaging from maybe 10 yards max. The intruder is practically guaranteed to be unarmored and is going to be armed with either a melee weapon or a small pistol caliber weapon of his own.
>>65440154Didn't say terminal ballistics. Pistol rounds are dogshit for effectively and quickly stopping a threat without a hit to the CNS and should only be used when you can't carry a long gun.
>>65438769SBR’d M1 carbine
>>65440154True. If we're talking subsonic rounds the benefits of a rifle caliber diminish. Just need to put a lot of holes in the right places quickly. Just about any handgun can do that, depending on shooters skill level.
>>65440014Anon, 40 GRAIN, not 40 sort and weak.As in 40 grain 5.7x28. Thats why I brought up the Ruger 5.7, since the LC Charger is chambered in the same caliber and takes the same mags.
>>65440181Have fun shooting straight through your target and killing your next door neighbor with your rifle round bro.
>>65440181>Dogshit for effectively and quickly stopping a threat>Without and hit to the CNSIsn't that just every bullet? Even with 5.56 you still have to hit the chest triangle, CNS, or pelvic region in order to promptly drop a threat. 9mm is capable of doing that quite fine against an unarmored target.Ultimately, as long as you are armed with a proper self defense loadout, you'll do fine.
>>65440235Thats retarded. 5.56 and .223 fragment out of anything above 10.5 inches, so overpenetration is not an issue (unless you miss but thats always going to overpen plus skill issue)
>>65438769pistol calibers pccs in their proper barrel lengths for ballistics not maneuveravilibyt meaning 10 - 12 inch barrels. Short barrel shotguns in 8 to 10 inches not ridculous meme 3 inch barrels. carbines in 12 - 14.5 you aint getting out of vehicles or clearing houses with a team. ballistics for barrels will over come shortness now that the nfa is toast. >but chaim what about suppressors?no.
>>65440240So if it's not overpenetrating, then what advantage in terms of lethality does a rifle round have over a pistol round?
>>65440240>5.56 won’t overpenetrate so long as you deliberately handicap your own maneuverability by using a weapon that’s too long for effective CQB in a CQB scenario Brilliant idea
>>65438833>(if you live in an area with lots of crime) a FRTWhat's FRT?
>>65440262Forced reset trigger, it resets the trigger after every shot, which allows you to achieve a fire rate similar to full auto while still pressing the trigger once for every shot and therefore not being classified as a machine gun under U.S. law
>>65440262forced reset trigger. A creative way to get "almost full auto". legally grey.
>>65440137>P90 has dogshit ballisticsIf the bullet nosedives immediately out of the barrel, sure, it would be a problem. But when the OP asked for home defense, blistics don't matter when the trigger gets pulled when the target is what, 20ish feet away at most indoors?
>>65440271Ballistics for a P90 is even sillier since you have 50 rounds of it. Even better if you get the FRT
>>65440256You're being retarded on purpose. You know a rifle isn't actually any more obtuse to handle than a PCC. Hell, I'd argue the best thing to have is a short 6 to 7 inch barrel 9mm PCC and a 10.5 to 12.5 AR in 5.56.Like, you can have both and be more than capable of working both quite effectively indoors.>>65440254You're also retarded. Like I said, any shot you miss will over penetrate because proper self defense ammo is designed to stop within the human target, not your drywall.Of course a rifle round is more lethal that a handgun round. No shit. Thats not the argument. Rather, a 9mm is more than adequate for self defense, and often comes with its own benefits (such as better performance out of shorter barrels, cheaper ammo, less noise overall, etc) that make it a fine choice.I keep both a PCC and an AR for home defense. Its not that big of a deal.
>>65440238You'd think, but no.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st10TqTBul0
>>65440280>You know a rifle isn't actually any more obtuse to handle than a PCC.Not him, but a smol PCC is OBVIOUSLY going to be easier to handle in the home than something with a 11" or longer barrel.>Of course a rifle round is more lethal that a handgun round. No shit.Answer the question. What makes a rifle round that reliably penetrates between 12-18 inches of ballistics gel after penetrating through 4 layers of denim more lethal than a handgun round which does exactly the same thing?
>>65439523The Jensen case supposedly covers that with FPC members, such as the suppressor case covers GOA members and SilencerShop customers. I got my suppressor last week without a GOA membership, though that's because my LGS is based and they had a selection of cans from SilencerShop to cover my ass.
>>65438869right around 2000fps with the 40gr. I've seriously been considering getting one too. you almost HAVE to get one if you have the other, considering they have exactly the same controls. it just makes sense as a primary and secondary.
>>65440287You're talking about the greater velocity of rifle rounds increasing wounding. Which is true. Along with the greater mass of shotgun slugs creating a larger permanent wound cavity and buckshot creating multiple permanent wound tracks this is why rifles and shotguns generally have greater terminal effectiveness over pistols.Though if you reduce the velocity of rifle rounds or reduce the mass of shotgun rounds, you're back down to "pistol level" where permanent wound cavity is the only factor.So 300 memeout with a can is gonna act like .45AARP if you're running subs. Since pistol rounds are largely indistinguishable in an ER or morgue, just about any pistol caliber than can reliably penetrate will perform about the same.If you're running a can for hearing safe indoors, then you're probably wanting subsonics. If not, why bother with a can?
>>65440302>Answer the question. What makes a rifle round that reliably penetrates between 12-18 inches of ballistics gel after penetrating through 4 layers of denim more lethal than a handgun round which does exactly the same thing?Not only that, but we’re likely talking about subsonic 5.56 given that this is a suppressor-centric discussion. That diminishes the performance of 5.56 even further.I could see an argument for .300 blackout here (that’s literally what it was designed for after all), but with subsonic 5.56 there’s really not much putting it over 9mm.
>>65440302Okay.The two primary ways bullets damage the body is through a permanent cavity, where the bullet physically bores a hole through the target, and the temporary cavity, which is caused by the sudden and extreme release of kinetic energy stored in the projectile.Lets assume we shoot two people, one with Federal HST 124gr 9mm out of a 7 inch PCC, and the other with 55gr m193 5.56 out of a 10.5 inch AR. The HST will hit the target going about 1200 f/s and the m193 hits at 2600 f/s. This gives the HST 396 foot pounds of energy stored in it while the m193 will have 825 foot pounds.Under normal circumstances you'd think the HST will dump its energy faster than the m193, since the HST is a hollowpoint and the m193 is FMJ. However, because of how much energy is stored in the m193, it will fragment within the target, dumping its energy in the same amount of time as the HST and stopping around the same distance.Since the m193 has double the energy as the HST, it will cause a much greater temporary cavity within the target, giving the m193 more potential to damage vital organs, bones, and nerves your attacker needs to not die.Of course, its worth noting this is mainly something you see with intermittent cartridges, like 5.56. 308 and 7.62x39 tend to icepick, making small permanent cavities but over penetrating out the back, leaving most of the energy in the bullet and not the target.>TLDR: Its all about energy and the ability to dump it quick.
>>65440333If you've ever shot indoors without earpro unsuppressed you'd know why. All defensive rounds should be super.
>>65440302>>65440341To further give you some further reading, here's a PDF of the journal of the International Wound Ballistics Association.https://files.catbox.moe/g49cjw.pdfPages 25 through 38 contain ballistics data showcasing what I mean. While the 38 Special and the 45 Auto have a straightforward permanent cavity, the .223 softpoint has a much larger permanent cavity, due to the extreme forces of the energy caused much of the temporary cavity to become permanent.
>>65440341>>65440365Great posts. Thanks for explaining that anon.What is a rifle round/firearm combination that can produce that kind of wide permanent cavity, while consistently penetrating through 4 layers of denim and between 12-18 inches of ballistics gel, while NOT utilizing a barrel that is unsuitably long for in-home defense?
people argue too much over lab tests and hypotheticals. just think about it... at the end of the day, the most common round used in actual defensive scenarios is 9mm. you can argue both for and AND against it at the same time, despite the fact that it is the most used. for it because it puts down more people daily than anything else combined. against it because you can watch thousands of videos of criminals tanking mag dumps before dropping. shot placement matters more than anything, that is already the obvious answer. somehow, people still don't get it.
>>654405069mm being cheap af is a big reason it's used as often as it is.
>>65440511not really. it's more because it's standardized with police, and handguns in general.
>>65440506Because most people don't bring rifles outside. You're not handicapped like that in your own home.
>>65438886>Definitely subsonic.don't, friend with a 9" used subsonic ammo in it and the gun kept jamming on each shot, it refused to rearm.the only gun that cycle with it is my APC300 and i have to put the piston port to max for it and it's still not enough for it to lock on empty mag.since you intend to get an upper, look also for buffer spring and weight for it, if you don't then stick to standard ammo.
Why did the green tip ice pick in somalians again ? Distance? Or was that just observed from very close range khat warriors.
>>65439827>It's really quietyes
>>65440533it takes a few inches for the disruption to occur. by that time it's already completely through the backside of a somalian.
>>65438769mk18, 75gr gold dots, flash light, red dot. I guess a suppressor if you want. I don't use one. It's fine.
>>65439626What is the utility of the toe knife in home defense?
>>65440271Terminal ballistics, you mouthbreather.
>>65439827>brit thinks that body armor is a realistic concern>brit thinks that's a long magazine>brit thinks that a burst of subsonic 9mm will be weak>brit thinks that silencer technology never developed past 1974
>>65440593No one expects it
>>65438769>What rifle would you have?Any decent semiautomatic shotgun, preferably a Benelli brand M4>What caliber would it be?If you are talking specifically rifle and shotguns weren't allowed, good ol' 5.56 real FUKKEN NATO>>What would be the barrel length and overall length of the rifle?20" barrel with an A1 stock just as God and Eugene Stoner intended.>What specific ammo would you keep loaded in it? (HP? softpoint? good ole m855?)M193 fmj>Any attachments or accessories?I'm rawdogging that shit, mane.>>65440262>if you live an area with lots of crime>What's FRTIf you don't already know what they are, it doesn't matter. Your piece of shit communist blue state already banned them along with any decent home defense guns.>>65440511This is a true statement. Being cheap is an advantage in of itself.
>>65438769Not an SBR, you kidding? An SMG, PDW or pistol, no question. If it's home defense, the first shot out of an SBR is going deafen every single person in the house and probably make me miss every shot after, even with a can on it I'd still rather be dealing with the blast of a pistol-caliber weapon with no hearing protection than an SBR. Subguns with cans would be even better, at that point you'll have no problem shooting with no hearing protection and you'll still probably be able to hear the assailants gurgle to death after.
>>65440642>If it's home defense, the first shot out of an SBR is going deafen every single person in the houseThat's really not how it works. Anyone outside of the room you're in will be fine. You also will not be deafened immediately. Your hearing will seem normal for a little while, then suddenly begin ringing and sound like you're underwater. You can get through the whole mag no problem.First timers will probably disoriented from the concussion however, would avoid not using a brake unless you're used to it. Free flashbang if you are. It's funny to me how much people who have never shot anyone worry the most about hearing, and completely disregard the other person presumably trying to kill you. Impossible to take this seriously.
>>65439827>Armour Post your tele loicense you grass eating, tea drinking, fag
>>65440623>Being cheap is an advantage in of itself.Yeah. Cheap ammo means you can train more with it.
>>65439626a bullpup in home defense retard larpmaxxer (you)
>>65440256>handicap your own maneuverability by using a weapon that’s too long for effective CQB in a CQB scenario I get the point you're trying to make, but the importance of this LARPerator shit is greatly exaggerated. In a legitimate home defense situation, you should not be clearing rooms and moving around a bunch unless you have family members to protect. I imagine that is not the case for most /k/ommandos. Any gun with a total length under ~40 inches will work just fine in most cases. People focus way too much on barrel length and its impact on maneuverability.
Since we're talking PCCs here, has anyone heard of the Matador 9? Looks pretty nice, is roller delayed, can swap lowers to take Glock, Colt, and MP5 mags. I heard the company takes forever to ship stuff though and its relatively new so there isn't much info on how they can hold up over time.
>>65440685Just get an MP5 dude.
>>65438769Aug. 14.5" barrel plus a can. 556 is good. 300blk subsonic if you would prefer. Flashlight and a red dot, and a trigger upgrade.
>>65438769Anything with a round in the chamber is solid. Too many fucks argue about everything. Birdshot. If you took that to the face. Not only would the guy live he would be down for the count and screaming with shit in their eyes bleeding everywhere probably better off dead and in need of a fucking ton of medical care. Point is it's not a military force on force engagement. You're Gucci if you're smart enough to have a gun. Only better yet if you actually make one out for yourself to that situation to play with and achieve.
>>65440941>better yet if you actually make one out for yourself to that situation to play with and achieve.has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
>>65438769home defense is not what america needsthey need civil defenseshow your civil defense loadouti cant right now
>>65441006
>>65441011gee bill
>>65441011What knife?
>>65441084Mom said because I'm special I can have as many optics as I want :D
>>65441101Terävä Skrama
>>65441106>$84Absolute sex.
>>65438810> m193 from a 20 inchPatrician
>>65440490Any gun chambered in 5.56/223 with at least 12.5 inches is practically guaranteed to fragment with 55 grain.Assuming you're using normal HPs or softpoints, 55 grain 5.56/223 will have that explosive cavitation while reaching desired depths IF it reaches at least 2500 f/s. This is more than achievable out of a 12.5 barrel, and often out of 10.5 barrels with well-made ammo. Often, heavier bullets will have this similar effect at an even lower velocity (which is why the FBI uses 64 grain Speer soft points for their SBRs)
>>65441387Also, here's an illustration showing m855 and m193 out of a m16 (20 inch barrel).Also also, according to a Garand Thumb video, a 10.3 inch AR will achieve over 2600 f/s with 55 grain 5.56/223, so that would be the absolute bare minimum.
>>65440365God I can tell I was exhausted when I wrote this.
>>6543876911.5 556 AR with a can using barrier blind soft point or MP5 with a can using federal HST. Lower threat level go with the MP5 higher threat level grab the AR. Optics on both would be reflex sight ie red dots and holographics with 1k lumen flashlights.>>65438840>just use this shit ass blowback instead of amazing roller delayed dead reliable PCCNo thank you>>65439692based FBI they also use 40 round Pmags which is also based >>65439575Trurkroach MP5 is good
>>65440346I have shot indoors without earpro. I much prefer shooting indoors with subsonics and a can.
>>65438833TBF used by SAS better of with MCX rattler in 10 inch .300blk sub
>>65441827Right. And 135dB indoors is a lot better than 165dB indoors without compromising ballistics.
