Why did Fire Point startup with zero missile pedigree get all the funding while Sapsan/Hrim-2 real design bureau had to fight for scraps?
>>65455561>Politicians are corruptThe chinese seems fine, atleast compared to slavic/european countries.
Their missiles seem to be really bootyrustling the ziggers so I say it was a good investment
>>65455607they're still just as/more, they just kill the ones that fall out of favor so everyone sealclaps a bit about them being harsh on it
>>65455613>everyone sealclaps a bitThen why don't european do the same? Is corruption an european traditional value or smthng?
>>65455551Hrim is KB Pivdenne they are an old established ex Soviet with long history of satellites rockets etc. and debts and oversight FP is >>65455561
>>65455551Same reason Australia adopted the Owens gun, it worked well despite being invented by a highschool dropout after his mortar business failed.Much like DARPA running the drone challenge they don't give a shit about experience or qualifications they just want a good design.
>>65455668>they just want a good design.genuinely curious, did fire point deliver? is the fp-1 better than the an-196, for example?
>>65455697>did fire point deliverYes, it's a long range cruise missile produced domestically in what is functionally a 3rd world nation.I think a lot of people forget how fucked Ukraine was even before 2014, the 90s never ended in Ukraine.The good news is if they win this thing and retain control of their major gas fields they can replace Russia as Europe's gas tank and with an armed and combat experienced population corruption will be extremely high risk for the political calss.
>>65455607Idk, selling rocket fuel and replacing it with water seems very ziggerish in nature.
>>65455720>selling rocket fuel and replacing it with waterBaseles asumption
>>65455725Yeah, sure. Just a few generals fired due to poor health, nothing to do with corruption.
>>65455729>few generals firedNTA, but chinese being proactive at rooting corruption makes them above and beyond most european countries.
>>65455551Secret cargo arrived at a Moscow
>>65455607>The chinese seems fineThe top 100 ccp officials are all usd billionaires. That was in 2006 or so, it'll be more now.Their corruption has become more sophisticated, they own the country's infrastructure and malls and get some tiny piece of every yuan that every Chinese spends.
>>65455705>in what is functionally a 3rd world nationSecond world. Third world countries don't have aviation industries and running water. First world means drinkable water of course.
>>65455755>Third world countries don't have aviation industries and running water.What?? by that concept, fucking indon and india are second world countries.
>>65455756yeah the two indos are bad, but true third world ""nations"" like the congo or sudan are on a whole nother levelfor example, the indonesions are actually fighting the papuans, while the congo doesn;t even care that a third of the country is lawless rebels
>>65455731Yeah, sure, a clash between corrupt officials that gets covered up by a corrupt party is definitely an attempt to root out corruption. The fuel wouldn’t have been sold in the first place if they had been proactive. And Europe is a different beast altogether - they have free elections and governments with actually functioning judicial systems. China has never really had anything comparable, it has been plagued by rampant corruption for thousands of years.
>>65455771>rampant corruption for thousands of years.Yeah, i can only imagine how much more advanced chinese will be without said corruption. I mean, with all those corruption happening, they can even challenge first worlder for dominance in scientific research.
>>65455705>Yes, it's a long range cruise missilehow does it compare against existing cruise missiles? it seems to do very poorly: the accuracy is terrible to the point that even the massive warhead can't compensate for it, and it's prone to being shot down
>>65455778Intellectual property infringement and straight up industrial espionage is not research, Zhang.
It's not about funding or corruption at all (this is a RU propaganda talking point pushed recently by ruslims), it's about the ability of smaller businesses and private enterprise to quickly execute vs soviet-era MIC barely crawling. Simple as. You can easily design, test and iterate on your own or investor's funds, and then when you have at least something usable or promising you can get small scale direct orders from specific detachments or specific agencies. Once it's proven, you can get your foot in the door with the MoD overall, giving your more access to customers. This is how it works in Ukraine at the moment. Any sort of corruption here is homeopathic at most, compared to projects and such. Real corruption happens on other crap.The big thing is so basic that I'm not sure that I even have to write this here. A small/private business can be 10+ faster in its operations due to having a few people who give a shit and not having 30+ years old crusted out bureaucracy and everyone just punching in clocks without giving a shit. Thus a couple guys can do weird shit for tests, get results, move to another option and iterate at lighting speed while old soviet faggots sitting on their ass would wait for their manager to make a written request, which he'll do when his upper manager will do the same, which that one will wait for another one. And when some crap won't work they'll sit and write reports for weeks or months on end. Not having enough powers to affect things is a big issue in such organizations, yes. Thus the people working there get crusted over time as well. Chronic underfunding over the years just rubs the salt in. 1/2
cont. >>65455845The real issue with Hrim-2 is that it was in development hell even before 2014 (let alone 2022). Back in mid 2000s Ukrainian MoD realized that at some point all the Tochka-U missiles will expire, so it requested a system to replace it. That's when it started. Then boom - 2008 financial crisis, funding cut. So the MIC pivoted to try and get export contracts to finance the project, there were expectations that Saudis would be a client. After 2011 the project was also sabotaged by Yanukovich's government and FSB plants. The project got second wind after 2014 due to the Crimea/Donbas shitfest, finally getting funding it deserved but it still was slow in terms of actually getting shit into production. Because it's one thing to make a prototype and even do a few test launches, but getting crap into finalized production became a problem. You can compare and contrast Hrim-2 with Neptune from Luch Design Burea: one project (Neptune) got fully developed and ready for production during 2014-2019 and just didn't get orders until shit has hit the fan in 2022 (and later quickly iterated to make even better products, i.e. Long-Neptune and such), while the other project waffled for years and then got put under even more issues, since the idea for Hrim-2 was that solid rocket fuel would be produced at the Pavlohrad Chemical factory, which got routinely bombed starting in 2022.2/2
>>65455551Firepoint delivered results with total Wildberries and OZON death.
>>65455561>All of Zelenskis friends got richMy retarded friend, they were already rich before he became president. I know this isn't said in your metodichka, but the guy wasn't just a media star for decades but used that to build his own entertainment empire.
>>65455697>is the fp-1 better than the an-196, for example?Depends on you criteria. It's like 3x cheaper and produced in significantly higher volume.
>>65455756>What?? by that concept, fucking indon and india are second world countries.Accurate. They are second world by both economic and political definitions. >but they're shit holes!That's why they're not (economically) first world
>>65455731Xingers "roots out corruption" only when this allows him to purge someone he doesn't like. The PRC, like all non democratic governments, relies on giving out access to corruption in exchange for loyalty in order to functionNo one joins the CCP to forward the personal interests of Xi Xinpeng, they join because rising the ranks is how you get to make real money without the party coming down on you for it
>>65455551The short answer is Fedorov, who was the Ukranian minister of defense. His side of the thing is Fire Point and they made the Flamingo missile. The reason why they chose that design in particular is because the Flamingo missile is the simplest offensive missile you can possible make, which is why it's viable to produce it in Ukraine where every production line got hit with a rocket/drone strike twice over.The downside of the Flamingo missile is that because it is so simple, it gets shot down really easily and success rates against hardened targets are negligible.They tried to go after civilian warehouses instead, but that's not going anywhere either because nobody gives a shit about a bunch of dragon dildos and women's clothing getting blown up.
>>65455873>because nobody gives a shit about a bunch of dragon dildos and women's clothing getting blown up.lollmao even
>>65455551>Sapsan/Hrim-2Anything that is linked to the Soviet heritage is going to be full of decrepit Boomers who insist on doing things only a certain way and gatekeeping young talent out.
>>65455697Yes, and it's not even close.
>>65455916An-196 has its own benefits, but... it's way more expensive like 300% and produced way slower and in less volume.
>>65455850>Firepoint delivered
>>65455551It was actually just the opposite. FP designed and started building missiles with its own private funding. They kept begging the Ukrainian military to try and buy their shit and the Ukrainian military kept ignoring them.Meanwhile, HRIM was being funded by the Ukrainian MIC and was soaking up all the money like a big fat oligarchic sponge and delivering one or two missiles every year. Like, when was the last time you heard of a Hrim being launched? Probably a year ago, maybe two. They were producing practically NOTHING.Then FP ran a big media campaign asking "why the fuck aren't you using these great cruise missiles we've put together just for you?!!" And that broke through the MIC firewall and brought the fact that there were cheap long-range missiles available (but being ignored) to the attention of the public and to the top-rank politicians.And so, suddenly, the Flamingos started getting used, and they worked just fine against the nonexistent Russian "what air defense doing?" air dedefence. So the Ukrainian government actually ordered and paid for more missiles.It's just like with those stupid little drones that the Ukrainian commanders were refusing to allow to be procured three-ish years ago. Nooooo, you can't just send a drone out to blow up ziggers, you have to do a zerg rush because zerg rushes are the traditional Soviet infantry method for killing off a maximum number of our own soldiers while doing nothing to the enemy! Just like what Great Russia is doing with all of their chmobiks! Until finally Zelensky had to step in and FIRE the stupid asshole ex-Soviet general who was ordering zerg rushes and blocking drone purchases.Honestly the main difference between Ukraine and the U.S. is that we still haven't caught up to the reality that buying one solid gold toilet per year instead of 100,000 ceramic crappers just isn't going to cut it in future warfare.
>>65455729There are literally only two people not gulaged in the entire CMC and one of them is Xi. So something is definitely up, there are usually about 70+ people in that. Not clear if that was a corruption purge or some kind of party power struggle
>>65455981Xi was also gulaged along with his entire family, but he tried so hard to get back into the beloved CCP that the glorious party forgave him, and the lil Pooh gets to gulag people now.
>>65456008That happens all the time, ccp has a waste-not-want-not attitude to officials that lose power struggles
>>65455607Corruption is the only way to gain wealth and/or power in a Communist state.
>>65455845>>65455847interdasting
>>65455607>t-the chinese seems fineHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>65455615>china implessive implessive maybe maybe?no lol.
>>65455778>completely transparent chinkshill postlol, no they can't.
>>65455561Lmao, you cannot imagine the kind of institutional corruption that soviet design bureaus breed and that ex soviet design bureaus inherit.Starting fresh is genuinly the better choice and the results speak for themselves.>>65455607>The chinese seems fineFrom the outside my guy.
>>65455873>because it is so simple, it gets shot down really easilyyes but I don't think other Ukrainian drones are better in this regard. Russia has something like a 99% success rate in shooting down FP-1s>and success rates against hardened targets are negligible.the fuckhuge warhead should be able to destroy pretty much anything in theory, if it hits. the problem is that FP-5s are comically inaccurate, possibly because they can't cope with Russian EW
>>65455845>>65455847>glorified theater prop makers can totally outperform people with 30 years of ballistic missile design experience because of muh startup culture or something lmao
>>65455607Wumao so fucking hilarious sometimes.
>>65455975>And so, suddenly, the Flamingos started getting used, and they worked just fine against the nonexistent Russian "what air defense doing?" air dedefence.nope, the vast majority of the time it either misses or gets shot down. this is why ballistic missiles are so valuable btw, because they can actually penetrate AD and hit the target pretty consistently
what are these zelensky shills, first time i see so many in 1 thread (at least 3)they post huge ass walls of text while accusing others of following metodichkas, nooo way. AND they also implicate fedorov in firepoint corruption? top kek, ze must be fucking trembling when the elections comes and he's ousted like the useless fuck he is. the only reason FP has all this funding is because it is run by Ze friends. if i was to start such a company and create the same products, I'd just be fucking ignored as there were no tenders in MOD until Fedorov introduced them THIS YEARthis is just low risk/low profile corruption, have a legit product and get legit business going your way because you're friends with the guy holding the money bag. and legit as far as i know, there were tons of recordings from NABU but idk if they have crazy margins on them drones or anything like thatbtw Fedorov was ousted SPECIFICALLY because FP wanted something like 80% of budget for drones to be used on their products and they got 25% https://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2026/07/24/8045760/ CTRL+F Fire Point and translate the paragraph
>>65455975>Until finally Zelensky had to step in and FIRE the stupid asshole ex-Soviet general who was ordering zerg rushes and blocking drone purchases.And then Zelensky fired Federov (the general who oversaw the drone revolution) because he dared to say Ukraine was slowly losing the war and needs a plan to actually win.
>>65456844holy fucking shit lmao
>>65455607AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHhAHAHHAhAhaaHA
>>65456875at the very least they're willing to execute people for corruption. in the usa we invented a ritual that makes corruption legal instead
>>65456857you guys can't just open telegram or some default news websites? how misinformed are youfedorov is a 35 y/o civilian project manager basically, was working in digitization ministry. who got fired because he did too good of a job at MOD optimizing stuff (read: eliminating corruption) the false pretense for firing was a conflict with syrsky, zelensky wouldn't touch syrsky if it wasn't for protests. not that ze cared for him, he just fed him to the wolves to calm the nation basically >>654568662nd para is a bit gibberish, basically saying that David Arakhamia represents some serious people from MIC and he's one of the architects of Fedorov's firing. he also bought the largest Telegram network in Ukraine and after it was sold (not to him directly but to proxies), it started targeting and dragging Fedorov through the mud. it's all just fucking money manalso Fedorov himself said that he killed a low-range artillery shell contract worth of 200$ million on his post-firing conference it was I think. that contract was with some EU country, and people behind the contract were pissed. the reason for the cancellation is that we don't fucking need them shells, 95% of hits in low-range zone are done with drones
>>65456883wrong, they follow the russia model. everyone does corruption, you only get ousted for it when a political rival of yours with more power wants you out of the way or has some sort of dispute with you.
>>65456888>the reason for the cancellation is that we don't fucking need them shells>we
>>65456897idk what you're getting at but here's the quote from his briefing "We saved over 100 million dollars on the artillery tender. And we stopped a large number of contracts that were signed directly with foreign companies, which I didn't even know about. I only found out when I stepped into office. I found out when I traveled to [that] country and said: 'Dear Minister, we are not buying 155s, do not allocate 200 million for Leopard repairs, don't do this, that, and the other.' I return to Ukraine, and my phone is blowing up: 'You ruined our contracts, our framework agreements. Let them pay us.'"full transcribe https://censor.net/ua/resonance/4014082/bryfing-myhayila-fedorova-dlya-zmi-pislya-vidstavkydon't use the default browser or google translate, use LLMs
>>65455755>First WorldThe West>Second WorldUSSR and their vasals (Ruski MIR)>Third WorldEveryone else (they are poor)Its really simple. What you are talking about is normally called Developed, Developing, or Undeveloped counties.
>>65456917there's no second world post ussr collapse. no pidorstani federation isn't second world unless you consider just mosquecow and pidorsburg as second world.
>>65456917>Everyone else (they are poor)finland isn't poor lol
>>65455607
>>65456895source?
>>65456917the meaning of first, second and third world have changedit is no longer a set of cold world terms in the same way that right win and left wing politics no longer refer to what side of a tennis court in Versailles you are sitting on
>>65456917Former Communist countries that became impoverished after the fall of the USSR were all downgraded to Third World.
>>65456917For instance, Cuba is a third world shithole, because it has all the markings of one and so is North Korea.
>>65455873How will officers punish roosters without access to a steady supply of dildos?
>>65455551I just can't believe it has taken 5 years to figure out how to make an Iskander. Seriously what the fuck do these defense contractors do all day?
>>6545719310% for the little guy
>>65457297zelensky would look like a child in that pic if he wasn't sporting that big ol' gut
>>65456996Xi is still in power
>>65457297>10% for the little guy>picrelWhat did the big guy get?
>>65456820>glorified theater prop makers can totally outperform Yes. I know guys who've developed automated target acquisition and guidance systems for drones in 3 months from start with zero experience in the field to successful tests by army guys. Cope and seethe.>people with 30 years of ballistic missile design experienceThose "people" long died or retired. An organization without staff is just a paper shell of its self. Most of these soviet MIC shitfest factories never had a sane inter-generational knowledge transfer happen because not a single sane person would go working there during 1991-2022 - they pay was shit (you'd earn more doing pizza delivery) and the factories were on their death beds. It's honestly not that different from how gamedev companies who made cool shit decades ago now produce crap - yeah, the brand and company are still technically there, but the people have all changed years ago. And it's people who matter.
>>65457543>I know guys who've developed automated target acquisition and guidance systems for drones in 3 months from start with zero experience in the field to successful tests by army guys.I am guessing that gluing a python package for computer vision to a python package for controlling a quadcopter is orders of magnitude easier than designing a new ballistic missile, especially nowadays when you can probably ask chatgpt free tier to do the former
>>65456908>>65456888>>65456844Everyone involved is either scamming or retarded except, ironically Syrski who's problem is that he's mr. I'm just following orders.The reason Syrski and Fedorov got into a fued is because Fedorov spent so much money on offensive drones that did fuck all that Ukraine pissed away the yearly budget while depriving the uniformed military that does the actual fighting on the front line of funds.Then the president didn't want to choose and told both of them to fuck off while he wrangles enough cash from the EU to live through the year.It's not helping that all the droning made the Russians mad so they went back on the grain deal and now the one part of the Ukranian economy that actually made money can't efficiently deliver their product because the ports are under blockade.
>>65455873>a bunch of dragon dildos and women's clothingBut enough about essential Russian military gear
>>654568274/9 successful attacks seems pretty alright for how tiny the numbers in your picture have
>>65455697If you look at the aerodynanic design the fp-1 is much cruder. However if the cost is anything to go by the an-196 probably uses a lot of complicated composites moldings and the fp-1 is much easier to fabricate.I think this shows the difference between the two. The an-196 is a very professional design, the fp-1 on the other hand is what Ukraine really needed, a cheap crude spammable design. This is a good example of how startups are often able to innovate and come up with bettet solutions than legacy companies eith more funding and expertise.
>>65457543There will be a held over cohort - a 20 year old in 1991 is 55 now. Also they were constantly doing work (not making money but doing real work) throughout the period. They are definitely going to tend Stalinist playbook on industrial bureaucracy. Video related kind of hard to get over tbqhhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyWxa6FZwD4
>>65458304My negro, people didn't work in soviet aerospace industry at 20. Usually one would start at 21-22 at the earliest, often even older. When 1991 collapse happened, only the most retarded, stubborn or useless people stayed in the factories to work for pennies, when the market was paying real money. >Also they were constantly doing work (not making money but doing real work) throughout the periodNot that much for people to have anything to do. The load on those enterprises collapsed post-1991. Sure, they'd be glad to assemble you something like a Zenith rocket, but since those enterprises were rudderless in terms of leadership or sabotaged by ruslims, they never transitioned to become stable global suppliers of space/military shit.
