Leopards are back as euro's tank of choice.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daa8MJ9jM9ALeopard 2A8: Norway Chose It Over the K2 Black Panther, and 6 NATO Nations Followed
>>65455563>TankIn drone age.Nato is really full of boomer isn't it? God i wish they send some to ukraine so we can get moar drone /k/ino.
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>>65455604dronebrain really ruined a generation
>>65455563>tanks in the current yearLiterally, not worth it anymore>>65455664Leopards were absolutely mogged in Ukraine though.
>>65455696>Leopards were absolutely mogged in UkraineWhat tank is not mogged in ukraine? The age of tank is over. The future is now, old fag.
>>65455604>Nato is really full of boomer isn't it?i think its more a case of the european mic, especially the german mic, being heavy on tanks. they are set up to produce tanks so they lobby the politicians to buy tanks, even thought their military value has greatly diminished. if rheinmetall were an aircraft producer you would see them go all in on aircraft and tanks being completely sidelined.its all about the money.
>>65455893This doesn't make any sense, they're not set up to build tanks, this isn't the 1980's. Leopard II production was kept on life support via foreign orders and they're full on orders anyway. If anything they're set up to produce a lot of wheeled vehicles and they're selling in much greater numbers as well. Germany in particular is a premier producer of heavy truck chassis not to mention their compatabilty with the existing automotive industry that's not doing too well lately and would benefit from goverment contracts to pump out light AFV's Secondly, your comment regarding Rheinmetal ignores the fact Germany is a major player in Airbus. By the way, while the Leopard II involves Rheinmetal, the tank is manufactured by KNDS and much of it is built outside of Germany as is.
>Tanks in 2026Time to let go unc
>>65455951>This doesn't make any senseit makes all the sense. thats why italy is building its own special leopard variant. not because they need a specialized leopard variant specifically for italy, but because the italian mic wants in on it and they lobbyed the italian politicians to involve them in the order.
>>65455968>just sit in your trench and get droned forever>every war will be a stalemate foreverEver wondered what happenes if effective counter measures against drones are developed, their attrition rates are already approachin 90% in Ukraine, while you basically abolished every combat arm of the army? What's the long-term plan here?>>65455974It makes zero sense, Germany is not set up to produce tanks and they're having to expand production and outsource to Czechoslovakia, Greece, Spain, etc. because their backlog of orders is already years long. Much of those new orders also include local production because Germany is literally not set up to produce tanks.Germany built barely any new hulls after the end of the cold war hence why they're not shitting out tanks. Your military industrial complex conspiracy is nonsensical and doesn't line up with reality.
>>65455997>CzechoslovakiaMeant Czechia. I wouldn't be surprised if Slovakia was in on it as well though.
>>65455604At the risk of being called a chinkshill I'll say that the bugmen's approach to the drone era is the only correct one. They gave up hull NERA armour that is hardly ever going to be used for a remote turret full of optical sensors, jammers and radar-based APS which is autoloaded too by the looks of it.If I were the one who designed the thing I would've installed a 30mm grenade launcher with airburst ammo to not waste the APS's charges and reserve them for ATGMs.
>>65455604How many confirmed drone kills on Leo2?AFAIK most losses have been immobilized by mines or atgms or by getting bogged down in the terrain and then scuttled by the crew.
>>65456030I think you're overloading the tank and its crew with having to do 12 different thigns and oversee 6 different weapon systems. It would be much better to concentrate that in a separate vehicle, much like was the logic with SPAAG, that can enable tha tank and its crew to focus on its primary task. APS makes great sense in such a scenario as the last line of defence. Hard-kill systems on modern IFV's are already evolving into this direction with 25mmm, 30mm, and 35mm AHEAD ammunition, integratad radar, visual and even sound systems specifically to detect and engage drones. The idea being rather obvious, your tanks already work in tandem with IFV's.
>>65455604Please tell me how would drones help out here?
>>65455997> Ever wondered what happenes if effective counter measures against drones are developedKeep copin’ unc kek
>>65456067shaheeds would strike the coalitian bases in saudi arabia and carriers in the gulf, disturbing air operations, potentially destroying ground targets like radars, storages, repair shops, command facilities, trucks, fuel storages etc. lancet strike drones would engage the abrams, humvees and bradleys from a safe distance. fpvs could be launched out of manholes and trenches. drones could drop mines on roads that are being used by the coalition. surveillance drones would have given the iraqi army a good picture of the frontlines and were coalition forces are concentrated and where they are not and give artillery a chance. transport drones could drop supplies on isolated units. etc. etc.how would drones not help out there?
>>65456099>things that have totally happened so far>meanwhile Iran has lost it's entire navy, air force, 2/3rds of it's c3 infrastructure, and most of it's weapon stockpiles. All for the result of 15 dead Americans.
>>65456067Shasneeds would kill the American tanker trucks, leaving their tanks harmlessly stranded in the desert without fuel.
>>65456066>would be much better to concentrate that in a separate vehicle, much like was the logic with SPAAG, that can enable tha tank and its crew to focus on its primary task. APS makes great sense in such a scenario as the last line of defence. Hard-kill systems on modern IFV's are already evolving into this direction with 25mmm, 30mm, and 35mm AHEAD ammunition, integratad radar, visual and even sound systems specifically to detect and engage dronesIn the curent year Main tank gun should should be 35-50mm with anti drone airburst capability.
>>65456099Most of the things you wrote are fanfic though. Like Lancets striking tanks from a safe distance? Lancets only have the same range as artillery, and Iraq had plenty of artillery, including anti-armor smart ammunition, when the war started. They tried to use it and were killed for their trouble. Targeting armored formations is difficult.
>>65456067>try to aproach Iraqi positions, >get roasted inside tank before you even see them
>>65456113See total artillery death in the Ukriane.Drone counter battery fire is over 9000 times more stronger than artillery counter battery fire
>>65456113>Targeting armored formations is difficult.Yeah, in the 1980s grandpa. That was 50 years ago. We have drones now. There's no complex bureaucratic cycle of flying a recon plane or sending commando teams to see the tanks, report them, arrange the cannons, and try to time the shots to hit where the tanks are going to be. Ahmed simply launches his fiber optic into the sky, sees the giant vehicles driving in a horde across open terrain, zooms down and pops one right in the ammo rack. Targeting armored formations is super easy, so easy that even retards like Russia have starting using infantry infiltration and smart bombs instead.
>>65456114>be an Iraqi dronenigger>waste your drones on feint attacks>trucks with more drones get raped by F15Es>finally launch your last drone against a real target>it just gets blinded by an AN/VLQ-7 on auto and crashes>get dismembered by an ICM
>>65456126>even retards like Russia have starting using infantry infiltration and smart bombs instead.Russia has run out of tanks, retard-kun.As for everything else, let's see it happen against a competent and well equipped enemy who maintains the initiative and has access to air power.
>>65456113>Targeting armored formations is difficult.how you can just say that with a straight face after years of daily video feeds of armoured formations getting rekt to the point of basically extinction is beyond me. some people just choose to reject reality.
>>65456109Those are insufficient calibers to deal with earthworks, buildings and enemy vehicles. If anything guns will get bigger.
>>65456130>>waste your drones on feint attacksYou aren't feinting anything in the drones camera view.>trucks with more drones get raped by F15EsSome may, but on 1991 Iraqi ground forces had left many vehicles and units in combat ready state and as results there were plenty of ground combat bettwen Coalition and Iraqi ground forces. Only Iraqi T-55 couldn't touch Abrams, but with drones table sare turned other way, Abrams can't touhx drones.>it just gets blinded by an AN/VLQ-7 > 2 wundervaffen Bradleys will save usAlso not so effective against drones because of the limited filed of view of this system. Drone will just fly on flash leaving it in the lower part of the screen until Stingray can't track drone anymore because of the limited vertical elevation.
>>6545617650mm HE with delayed fuse will pen 400mm reinforced concrete and 2000mm of compacted earth. There are no practical bunkers that can stand such round.>enemy vehicles50mm sabot will pen anything that aren't tank frontal armor, and tank frontal armor is unicorn target on the modern drone battlefield.
>>65456176why would a drone not be able to lift a 120mm shell? it can fly it with pinpoint precision directly into a building or trench, with much greater range and accuracy and without needing direct line of sight.
>>65456208Except none of this is true and you live in fantasy land.
>>65456136And why have they run out of tanks?And you call anyone else a retard? hahahahaha
>>65455604>>65455696>>65455893>>65455968>>65456076>>65456099>>65456222lol all this dronenigger seething is adorable>n-no, b-but drones are supposed to do everything now!>w-why are all of the professional military procurement people still buying all these useful weapons, my dronebrain can't understand, everything is supposed to be obsolete!ukraine is not every war ever, droneniggers. people smarter than you are working on the issue of modern warfare and they are incorporating drones into armed forces, not replacing everything else with them.
>>65456104And yet the war has not been won.
>>65455563RIP
>>65456324Because the people ordering new tanks also own shares in the companies manufacturing them?
>>65456066A lot of shit can be automated, besides there's the commander who can look after the APS and RWS machine gun while the gunner operates the main gun.
>>65456030There's a heavy IFV/FSV version of the same tank that I imagine is supposed to work in tandem with the MBT
>>65456136>Russia has run out of tanksThat's right grandpa. How did you think that happened? It was conventional war for the first ~year. After that? It was all FPVs killing tanks. Traditional air power can't stop infantry with AKMs, how do you think it's going to stop infantry with fiber optic FPVs?>>65456176Hexacopter drones in Ukraine routinely carry 20 to 40lb payloads. >>65456324Yeah and why do you think that is?Hint: bureaucratic risk aversion. The monkey doesn't drop the old branch until it's in the next war.
>>65456846>a-and why do you think that is>n-noooooooo they're stupid they're stupid they're stupid drones drones drones drones dronesyou need to stop drooling, dronenigger, it's unbecoming of you.>beurocratic risk aversionno, because people significantly smarter than you have deemed not buying tanks to be a fucking retarded decision strategically.>b-but what IF drones totally obsoleted everythingbut they haven't, they haven't made anything obsolete at all.they've been incredibly succesful in one specific war with highly specific circumstances, and now everyone's developing counters to them, as well as intergrating them into their own forces.>dronenigger land gets attacked>haha, the fools, don't they know armored vehicles have been obsoleted by drones? we've phased out all production of these complex supply chains because it was cheaper!>whoops, invading army has strapped C-UAS to everything and drone swarms do negligable damage>quick! send in the... oh wait
>>65456846>for the first yeardidn't follow the war zoomer award\>g-grandpayou're an insecure zoomer lmao, you've staked your entire personality on shilling for drones, it's frankly embarrassing.
Why haven't tank producers started to build drone cages yet?
>>65456293Your concession is accepted.
>>65455604Non-US NATO isn't shit. The USA is literally 65% of the total forward deployable force. The USA's military budget was also 64% of the ENTIRE NATO total in 2025. Turkey looks big on paper, but it literally cannot forward deploy even 5% of its total force even regionally. The next best to the USA is France and then the UK, but the UK has an advantage in naval expeditionary forces.
>>65456864>whoops, invading army has strapped C-UAS to everything and drone swarms do negligable damageToo bad tankfags need to lose all their tanks first to get the memo, otherwise they refuse to admit drones exist like itt.And after they lost their tanks, well they don't have tanks to strap C-UAS on to.
>>65457971More fun facts.The USA states of VirginiaCaliforniaFloridaTexasWould each individually be counted as the #2 most powerful members of NATO if counted individually on their own without competing with or combing forces with each other. Virginia and California would be competing for the most conventionally powerful USA states by stationed forces. The USA state of Arizona by itself has a higher land vehicle and air force power rating and forward deployability rating than France and the United Kingdom combined. And France and the UK are #3 and #2 respectively for forward deployment capability in all of NATO. The USA also has 86% of the total active and reserve nuclear warhead arsenal in NATO. Around 5,100 total warheads, of which 4,200 are immediately available and have strategic vehicles for them. The possible 2027 USA military budget is equal to NATO's (including the USA's) entire 2025 budget, $1.5 trillion USD.
>>65457971Kek what is this gay fantasy shit? How old are you, 12?
>>65458010Strategic air power (strike aircraft, logistics, payload suites, and AA) and EW has always been more important than MBTs. Even in the old doctrine you don't mass deploy ground forces and land vehicles without superior or at least peer level air strategic and close air support. Neither Russia or Ukraine have ever gained air superiority over the other. No NATO member would be capable of launching serious strikes inside of Russia without losses anyway. But USA EW defeated S-400s and PRC HQs deep inside of Iran. The USA also produces a shahed 136 analog for $40k/unit and has deployed offensive and counter drone warfare units armed with affordable and advanced drones in both its military, CIA/civilian factions, and US CBP (border patrol). The CBP drone warfare units primarily use classified EW capabilities to drop hostile cartel drones with the push of a button and no kinetic payload.
>>65458021Those are actual listed inventories and capabilities in 2026. The UK can at most forward deploy 4 naval strike fighter squadrons, an additional 4 strike fighter RAF squadrons, 6 destroyers/frigates, 3 attack submarines, 2 medium carriers, and up to 20,000 combat troops with a maximum of 30,000 support troops with vehicle support. Any more and the British isles would lose strategic local air defense coverage. France can at most forward deploy 1 medium carrier with naval 2.5 strike fighter squadrons, 8 frigates, 1-2 attack submarines, around 40,000 combat troops with up to 75,000 support troops with vehicle support. The USA can at most deploy 6 super carriers (4-5 in practice), 6 light carriers (4 in practice), 1,400 strike aircraft, of which 600 are naval, 64 destroyers/cruisers, 34 attack submarines, 800 CAS aircraft, 800 logistics aircraft, 400,000 troops total of which 160,000 combat alone with vehicle support. And already has 190 military bases around the world. The USA military budget in 2025 was $980 billion. NATO's 2025 budget was $1.5417 trillion USD.
>>65458032>forward deployWhy exactly would anybody except the US need to do this?
You retards do know what combined arms warfare means right?Buying a tank doesnt mean drones cant also be used.There will always be use for an armored vehicle with a big gun
Btw a "typical" USN super carrier strike group usually consists of at least 3 destroyers/cruisers, one covert attack submarine that patrols around the group, 4,000-6,000 personnel, at least 64 strike aircraft with additional refueling and EW capability aircraft. For example if the UK forward deployed two CSG's of its own (both Elizabeth class ships), they would need at least 2 destroyers and 1 frigate each, 6 total. Leaving only 5 frigate/destroyers for defense of the British isles and territories, and this assumes no ship downtime which is impossible. And 2 of 6 total attack subs would be deployed, leaving only 4 to patrol the British isles and territories.
>>65458041The /pol/-tier dronespammers do not understand this.They are thirdies who cannot comprehend such things.
>>65458037France and the UK cannot even forward deploy adequate forces to Ukraine, which is on the same continent as their nations. Even if they called up a general muster of all available forces.
>>65458042Its amazing how fucked UK is. They spent all of their money on two ramps and dont have anything to even escort them.
>>65458046OK, and your source for this?Also, why would France or the UK send troops to Ukraine?
>>65458047That's what they get for drinking Muscovite kool-aid in 2016.
>>65458047Even the USA barely has enough escorts and extra for territorial defense and attack globally, IMO. France is also in the same position as the UK, as its 16 frigates/"destroyers" barely have enough ordnance onboard to be adequate for basic territorial defense.
>>65458056source is shit pulled from his nigger ass
>>65458056UK MOD, France MOD, US DOW. France and the UK have also been raring to get mutilated in Ukraine for 4+ years now. The UK and France have both been sending attack munitions that Ukraine is presently (right now) using to bomb targets deep inside of Russia. Germany is also used as a transport hub. This is the most the USA would allow them, they don't go any farther in escalation because they know they do not have adequate forces or industry on their own without USA support.
>>65458067And thus the dumb zigger reveals itself.
>>65458070Full blood American. Fuck europe. All of it. From Portugal to Russia. Ukraine has lost more vehicles than the combined forces of the UK and France have at present. All 31 abrams and some 200 MRAPs were destroyed within a year to 18 months inside Ukraine, mostly by mines and drones.
>>65458073Sure thing, mr Johnny American from Texas oblast.
>>65458067>The UK and France have both been sending attack munitions that Ukraine is presently (right now) using to bomb targets deep inside of Russia>>65458073>Full blood American.Full blood american is crying about deep inside of Russia getting bombed?hahahahahahahha
>>65458092I just said IDGAF about europe as a whole. Including Russia. And as I pointed out, the USA is literally 65% of NATO's total forces and budget. I'm 100% for pulling out USA forces from europe and south korea. It would take Europe 30 years to rebuild their militaries to adequate levels for a new cold war with Russia/Iran/North Korea/PRC. My tax money is unironically better spent on bombs for gaza.
>>65458094The shift you cucks made from cold war where you correctly identified ruskies and commies as inhumane to this cuck surrender behavior is amazing.
>>65458100No said the USA is surrendering, quite the contrary in fact, it is positioning itself to geopolitically out compete europe and east asia combined in tech and industry and military. The supermajority of Americans literally do not give a fuck about europe at all. We're done with it. Fuck europe from Portugal to Russia. Fuck and Iran and dog eaters in korea to.
>>65458102>im not retreating, im just going backok bud, you keep telling that to yourself. I am sure ruskies and chinks and other usa hating niggers will appreciate you leaving shit for them to plunder.
>>65458105The USA has defended an ungrateful europe for 80 years and gotten nothing out of it. The new pivot will be to Japan, Australia in the pacific, Israel in the middle east, and halved or less residual forces in europe primarily for nuclear missile radars and USA air defenses to defend the continental USA from europe. The rest of europe will have to fund its own defenses. The USA has also gotten literally nothing out of defending dog eaters in korea, while Japan has been the overall more stable and reliable island fortress nation for USA forward deployed bases and forces.
>>65458108>Israel in the middle eastAre you retarded.Wtf have the jews done for USA? They are parasite that only there to suck US taxpayer money. Thanks to them, the US is neck deep in unwinnable war againts Iran.
>>65458108You are literally ignoring what I am saying. You have your literal enemies encroaching upon your, lets say, weak allies, and your response is to run away. Thats what you want to do. You are afraid of confrontation. You want to avoid it. You would rather give up what you had, than stand up to ruskies/commies/whatever.If you want that, thats fine. Just accept that you are a surrendering cuck and if your countrymen 50 years ago would know what you stand for, you would be branded a traitor.
>>65458113They literally put their entire nation on the line with 3 days notice to bomb the absolute fuck out of Iran out of spite. And europe ever ungrateful, doesn;t realize that the USA-Israeli action in Iran removed at least 10,000 missiles and drones in active Iranian hands and production that would otherwise end up in Ukraine (at least 3,000 were given to Russia, and 3,000+ more were on the way).
>>65458114I don't recognize europeans as allies. You have never done anything to protect USA interests of your own volition and have instead actively tried to create your own hostile economy to counter the growing USA hegemony. Fuck canada and mexico as well, both literally hostile and parasitic nations at home. And Turkey should not even be in NATO at this point, it is actively against europe and the USA's interests, ie hostile to the west.
>>65458025>Another full American here, NATO is capitalist perversion and should be broken up, America doesn't need allies, we have a strategic location strong petrochemical industry and numerous warm water ports
>>65458128America does not *have* allies. At best the only nations that have actually gone out of their way to cater to USA interests are Australia, Japan, more recently Israel (usually a wildcard normally). That's about it. Everyone else has been a leach or actively hostile the USA publicly or in policy. The USA has also recently spent $10 trillion in domestic investment for domestic industrial and critical materials/components production. Even prior to that, individual USA states already had more industry than the UK and France combined, not even the biggest states either, states like Arizona and Missouri.
>>65458116And what the benefit for USA, iran can bomb the fuck out of Jewsrael and nobody in the USA would be afected. The US can simply watch as Kikesreal getting removed from the fucking world. Bu no.. good goy usa must help their master. What a cucked country.
>>65458135Iran has been actively hostile to the USA for 47 years, recent intel showed publicly it was aiming to triple its missile and drone arsenal by 2028-2029, it has been actively pursuing nuclear weapons (which WILL ONLY lead to nuclear war, which WILL expand outside of the mid-east), it is an active military supplier to Russia and the PRC and vice versa and a member of BRICS (hostile to the USA, all members), and the ayatollah called for the final holy war after nuclear talks failed (they failed because Iran did not want to concede its nuclear weapons program, which the Russian Federation was aiding). Israel is a nuclear armed nation, and it WILL nuke Iran 100%, which would then cause Russia Pakistan, Turkey, and India to chimp out, which would cause everyone else to chimp out.
>>65458141Also. Ali Larijani was in Moscow less than 2 weeks before SHTF. The USA and Israel killed him less than 3 weeks later.
>>65458147Also little Kim the dog eater also shit his pants as SHTF. He launched some dozen or so missiles as a desperate defensive measure, as he watched the majority of Iran's 47 years of sanctioned MIC build up go up in smoke in a couple weeks. The USA can strike anywhere on Earth. Anywhere. Regardless of how many S-400s and HQ's you have. Starshield and the X37B also are part USA space weapons fleet and capabilities.
What blew up this time for the Amerishart to go off the rails so much?
>>65458166Russian drones have been test running bombing Ukrainian supply aircraft picking up UK, French, and Germany military supplies for several weeks now. The USA isn't going to respond to your article 5s when they actually do blow up Ukrainian planes on the tarmac and taking off/landing in european NATO countries. Europe is actually vastly behind Ukraine in drone and asymmetric warfare.
>>65458167Finnish forces will take Leningrad in days if the Russoids dare, supported by Swedish air and naval forces. Amerigolems can't even deploy hamburgers to the middle east anymore.
>>65458170The Finns are less able to forward deploy than the French. They have no air superiority also and only 4 strike fighter squadrons, which means they would end up exactly like Ukraine right now without massive western help.
>>65458173Retard, the Russoids can't even guard their cities against Ukies. I swear you Americans lose 90% of your IQ after circumcision.
>>65458108>we should leave Europe to it's own devices>I'm sure they will allow us to keep those early warning installations, logistics bases and other support facilities we need stay in touch with the ME
>>65458179Russian S-400s will defeat all 4th gen aircraft and avionics. The PS-05 mk4 and under would be inadequate and defeated. PS-05 mk5 is finally an AESA but it would still be defeated without intrinsic (conspecific) advanced EW capabilities on adjacent aircraft, which Sweden and Finland lack almost totally. They would take sortie losses as high as Ukrainians. The APG-81, APG-85 are both still more powerful and accurate than the nordoid slop, and the USA has AA missiles with EW capabilities and strike ranges beyond 250km. While the old APG-77 is still the most powerful avionics suite on Earth, allowing it to actually stay in an aerial supremacy role, which would clap Russian cheeks bigtime combined with intrinsic EW aircraft. The Ukrainian drones that are most effective are dumb, cheap prop drones. 50-80% of all other types are shot down or miss.
>>65458183We don't need the logistics bases, medical installations, and the majority of all troops and installations in europe. The only thing we might be advantaged to keep are EW radars and B61 with a small number of local USA delivery craft. The pullout will cause europe to be about 15-30 years behind in the new cold war that they never knew already started.
>>65458195>we don't need connection with the ME if we want to operate in the MEyou are also forgetting the one thing that Europe provides the US that it can't compensate for, not having o worry about the Atlantic. the USN is struggling just to keep up with it's current commitments.but now it wouldn't just have to contend with Chinese build up with with the European as well.problem is they haven't the ships available to cove the Atlantic, haven't the build capacity to keep up with both the chinese and the Europeans and haven't the crews to man the ships it would need to do so>but they are behindsure, but now they are the US's allies you'd make them the US's enemies behind or not that's a lot of economic and military power flipping over to the other side of the ledger for no good reason
>>65455696>Leopards were absolutely MOGGED>look inside>they got stuck in a minefield, technology we've had for about 100 yearsthere will always be a need for big cannons providing immediate fire support, the next meta will be the same tank guns on the same tanks but firing laser guided shells to hit targets beyond line of sight at a moment's notice.ukrainians were scoring hits with B1 centauros (far from top of the line tanks in 2026) from 11km away, with a 105mm cannon and unguided munitions.if anything drones will make tanks even deadlier, extending range and with 120mm guns delivering bigger shells.sorry dronetard but tanks are here to stay.
>>65458206The USN Atlantic fleet is the largest in that ocean. Virginia has more USN assets than the entire rest of NATO combined and has the largest naval bases on Earth. The Atlantic is not the future naval warfare theater. The Pacific is the future naval warfare theater. Russia does not have a navy, and neither does europe for that matter.And as I already showed and demonstrated, the two most powerful non-USA NATO members, the UK and France, cannot forward deploy at all in any meaningful operational capacity on their own. The UK has too few escorts, and France has green navy corvettes that it calls "destroyers", and still has too few of them. Australia is slated to order and possess more attack submarines than the UK and France combined.
>>65458131>America does not *have* allies.and yet their non-allies spent 20 years in afghanistan and fought two wars in iraq next to the US.you turdies are really dishonest subhumans.
>>65458213Afghanistan was a test bed for USA military technology and doctrine and not a legacy conflict for the west. And in Afghanistan's case, the USA was 95% of all forces there. Number 2 was the UK with 1/10th to 1/5th of the USA's forces, and all other parties exclusively relied on USA logistics and support, they could not operate solely on their own like USA forces could.
>>65458212>Virginia has more USN assets than the entire rest of NATO combinedin dock at Norfolk and other facilities>on their ownbut they aren't on their ownthe calculus is still that the US will need to put more hulls in the water and man them that they currently don't have to. while they are currently already struggling to keep up with it's commitments and none of those are to protect Europe.while also telling you biggest export market to go get fucked, losing your logistics access to half the worldand all of that because basing some forces the US has regardless of any European commitment in Europe is to hard and expensive nigger did your mother drink while she was pregnant and dribble your head like a basketball
>>65458216>was 95% of all forces there>Number 2 was the UK with 1/10th to 1/5th of the USA's forceslol
>>65458216>America does not *have* allies.>but they do>umm well that doesn't count! the smaller nations that spend a fraction of the US in defense MUST make the same commitments! clearly they're not allies and "we" dont need them!real turdie moment
>>65458225USN 2nd fleet has between 100 and 150 active ships at any given time. These are predominately fleet level operational ships, top of line destroyers CSG's, attack subs, and a host of logistics ships. It can also host up to 4,000-5,000 USA military aircraft. It is the largest USN fleet division most of the time, the only competitor is USN 3rd fleet. Virginia is the main naval base of operations. Georgia possesses nuclear warhead submarines with up to 800-1,400 nuclear warheads being home ported there. USN 3rd and 7th fleets (PAC) combined typically possess 150 to 200 warships across an area larger than all of the Earth's land area combined. Again, mostly top of line CSGs, destroyers/cruisers, attack subs, host of logistics, massive naval aviation. Main bases are San Diego, Japanese joint bases, and nuclear warhead submarine base in Washington state with again up to 800-1,400 nuclear warheads homeported (classified active totals and varies between Georgia). Attack subs have higher priority in the Pacific fleets due to potential war with the PRC, in which USN attack subs will be critical to crippling international and PRC shipping and military vessels, similar to the IJN operations in WW2, but using top of the line nuke boomers and USVs. Individually, these fleets total more assets and strike power and logistics power than all of the rest of NATO combined. You can even throw the Russian navy in there to combined with europe and it would still fall short.
>>65458227Peak USA force was 110,000 personnel, peak NATO forces combined were 30,000 personnel. 78% USA. This however was not the usual arrangement, the usual arrangement was 85-95% USA forces alone. >>65458228Europeans are not allies to the USA and have not been for decades. You publicly and actively are hostile to the USA and its economy and interests and culture and people. Fuck europe. Fuck canada to. Fuck mexico to, the USA has been in assymetric warfare against mexico directly for decades at this point, we just haven't bombed them yet.
>>65458231The USN shipbuilding and maintenance hubs are in Maine, Mississippi, Alabama, Washington state, Virginia, and California. Individual locations build and service more ships than the rest of NATO combined.
>>65458237>You publicly and actively are hostile to the USA and its economy and interests and culture and peopleNTA but do elaborate on this.
>>65458242The entire EU economy and financing and trade structure is openly hostile to the USA, this is not even a secret. God forbid the USA strike back with tariffs and restructuring "alliances". Every european except for a handful out of every hundred are openly hostile to Americans in person and in general and the majority are also hostile to Americans and the USA in surveys as well, you do not see us as allies or even the same race (even when an Anglo-American from flyover country is whiter than 90% of Paris or London now). You refused to rearm and defend yourselves adequately for the last 25-30 years even though it became apparent it was necessary. The european drug and human trafficking trade is the 2nd largest arm of the international narcoterrorist cartels and their largest source of revenue (more than the USA due to differences in average prices and overall massive scale and loose borders in the EU and eastern/southern europe), which they have refused to crackdown on like the USA has increasingly over the decades. Economic integration with state enemies of the USA; PRC, Iran, Cuba.
>>65458250so you are just delusional, got it
>>65455604OMG I MUST DROOOOON!!!!
>>65458261
>>65458276
>>65458276>except for a handful out of every hundred are openly hostilea) negative =/= openly hostile b) 26% not negative =/= a handful your own source dunks on your claims, yes you are delusional
>>6545828011 out of 100 see the USA as an ally. Supermajority are hostile online and in person and in general. Fuck europeans and fuck europe.
>>65458021You're kind of stupid, Anon.
>>65458276>shit on europe>wtf why are europeans angry with us???
>>65457971How well would the US be able to forward-deploy without all those bases their "allies" are hosting?I think the US without NATO isn't going to be faring a lot better.
>>65458231you don't engage with the argument being made at allyou just dump info and hope people get to caught up in the details that they forget to notice that you didn't answer the question at all. that makes as trustworthy as a p*litician
>>65458295The EU and europeans have been hostile to the USA since the USA's inception. We have gone to war or cold war against every single European nation at one point or another because of your terminal antics and hostility. Even during the cold war, europeans never saw the USA as anything other than a convenient party to take advantage of. >>65458297The USA can forward deploy unilaterally even without *any* foreign bases. 4 CSGs led by nuke boomers, 4 ARGs, 60+ DDGs, 40+ attack subs all nuclear boomers, 23 logistics super ships (these are not tenders/oilers which we also have, these are full support FOBs at sea), USA military logistics aircraft alone can support up to 40 strike fighter squadrons on deployment anywhere in the world without touching ground for long range and sustained strike operations.
>>654583143/10 bait made me reply
>>65458309Because first off, your "argument" is not based at all in reality. The USA does not need NATO at all, in literally any military sub-category. Europe and NATO need the USA massively. Even during the cold war, half of NATO states were supposed to be buffer states to keep the USSR from directly and swiftly reaching the United Kingdom in conventional and mixed warfare. The USA places its relationship with the UK higher than all of the rest of NATO, it's why we shared Trident IIs with them and they have secondary exclusive access to USA military technologies, selectively. Even though the UK has not been a true ally of the USA for about 70 years now. Australia, another Anglo exclusive partner, is actually closer to the USA military than to the UK military. Canada and New Zealand are outcasts and universally incompetent and ill equipped, and also assholes, even within the Anglo-sphere (which is saying alot).
>>65458314>USA since the USA's inceptionso true! all those French, Spanish and Dutch soldiers that fought alongside the red coats to squash the revolution!
I see the thread has been successfully de-tracked
>>65458321https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.htmlyour post are formated like russian propaganda so I think it's safe to assume you are one
>>65455608i don't think you can buy a leopard
>>65458317The USA warred with France immediately after the revolutionary war, which France started. The UK (and Ireland) tried to destroy the USA 3 separate times (1776, 1812, 1861-1865). More American service men died fighting the British than in all the USA's middle east wars combined. All caused by the British. The USA also fought directly; Spain, Russia/USSR, Germany (including German occupied states, half of Europe, including Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Finland), Romania, Italy, Austria, Bulgaria, Hungary, Yugoslavia. Indirectly, the entire combloc, including Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine, the Russian Baltics etc. And, yes, the USA can actually forward deploy without any support bases. This is the hardest definition of unilateral forward operability. We can strike anywhere on Earth unilaterally within 24 hours with strike aircraft, warships, and troops.
>>65458327Your link has nothing to do with the subject matter and your "argument" is all delusional ad hominins and you do not seem to comprehend the facts. See >>65457971. Which is actual USA, UK, and French government/military data. The USA is literally 2/3rds of NATO.
>>65458231>uppity muttmericanGod.. i hope the chink invade taiwan and kick US ass.
>>65458334The USA has more strike aircraft than the Russian Federation and the People's Republic of China combined. Both the PRC and RF are at least 2-3 generations behind USA avionics suites also, like Europe. And the USA does not have treaty obligations to defend Taiwan with force. The USA does have a defense treaty however, with Japan (stronger terms) and South Korea (weaker terms). The USA has and does station nuclear weapons in Japan, often quietly.
>>65458333it describes what you do to a tyou don't engage with the argument and then spew a flood of lieswjmhen people point out your lies you then spew some more in the same direction and bam the discussion is no longer about the original argument but your lies, great success
>>65458337You're literally describing yourself. Facts you are not facing. The USA is literally and statistically 2/3rds of NATO. The USA has been covering europe's ungrateful ass for 80 years with no net positive overt benefit to the USA, especially as the geopolitics of the world has switched from europe to North America and Asia. Europeans and the EU are openly and super majority hostile to the USA and its interests and economy. The USA has no obligation to baby sit europe through another one of its tantrums.
>>65458344>no it is you are lying>lies again by twisting negative opinion to mean openly hostilecould you at least try
>>65458349Have you admitted that the USA is 60-65% of NATO by both total military expenditure in government sources? Or that the USA unilaterally has more military assets than the entirety of the rest of NATO combined? Or that the EU has used prejudiced economic and trade practices against the USA since its inception? Or that europeans are fucking stupid actual beta cucks that over rely on the USA when its convenient for them, but balk at actual American superiority and authority like privileged manchildren?
>>65458358can you adress the fact that a having a negative opinion isn't the same as being openly hostile.or will you just post more stuff so you don't have to
>>65458041But most countries in active conflict right now can't afford or justify the cost of a tank.Drones can be made by anyone.
>>65455563It's at least 10 tons too heavy. Probably more like 20. The K2 is 55 tons which is on the upper limit of adequate. Either design from scratch a tank that fits into 50 tons (55 max but we all know modernizations make it heavier) or stop wasting my taxpayer money on this useless 80s era garbage.
>>65458363Why should the US subsidise your welfare state and healthcare system by offsetting your defence spending, while you mock them in the internet for their lack of a social safety net?
>>65458373Because do as you're told vile mutt.
>>65458373Yeah USA is subsidising everyone by making its allies buy its weapons.
>>65458372>dependencies of the USAand there it is the whole rimussian "Europe are just vassals" narrative
>>65458377Actually, NATO does as the USA tells it. We will be permanently withdrawing forces from europe, enacting a protracted trade war, and totally restructuring strategic USA forces and policy to Asia permanently. All because of the continued and terminal european hostility to the USA as a whole, since its inception.
>>65458382>wesure, "we"I'm sure "we" haven't passed the 2026 National Defense Authorization Act that mandates US troop levels in Europe stays over 70000
So mutts don't like financing nato but love supporting israel with military and economic aid?
>>65458399>I'm not pushing a russian narrative >Russia will permanently and legally gain some of Ukraine's former land areasure Ivan "we" won't do shit
>>65458393There is no permanent USA troop number obligation to NATO or Europe. The same situation exists with south korea, much to their desperation. The NDAA is passed every year and is subject to change based upon internal USA policy and geopolitics. It is subject to the whims of congress and politics in the USA every year with each budget. You might find some changes next year.
>>65458407>no reality is not reallol
>>65458399god damn you mad
>>65458416>implying Russia has a single functional warheadlol, lmao even
>>65458416>no I'm totally an american and "we" will no longer protect you from the uberduper mega strong muscular russian bear with well defined abs and bulbous upper body muscles and, and no very very straight and not at all western homo sex russia
>>65458399>you block USA importswhich us imports get blocked? i know only of agrarian tariffs and blocks to protect farming in europe. arguably not a hostile measure, but a necessary one, outsourcing our food production would be the most retarded thing ever. i think you can understand that.
>>65458429>nuclear wunderwaffePost the torpedo faggot.
>>65458436so the EU banning round up was just to harm the US and not at all because it's a carcinogen
>>65458440The USA and USSR both developed similar weapons in the cold war. The USA developed a nuclear torpedo of its because the USSR developed one. The USA advanced suitcase nukes because the USSR did first, after the USA invented them. The USA developed artillery nukes because the USSR developed them first. The retofitting of old physics packages is actually very easy, just new programming, electronics, and explosives. It's honestly amazing Iran was so incompetent in its nuclear program over the decades, even with direct Russian help, they still have enough material for 5-15 dumb nukes.Japan has enough nuclear material to rapidly manufacture more than 3,000 nuclear warheads with an average yield of 200-300 kilotons of TNT.
>>65458436lol my car is a tesla, my computer is intel with an amd graphics card, my monitor is from hp, ym mouse is naga, my keyboard is from cherry, my os is windows, my phone is apple, pretty much every electronic device i own is from an american company. and all of the software and cloud services anyway.you are completely wrong. who told you this bullshit?
>>65458448the US is hardly innocent in this regard: just ask /o/ why you can't import foreign cars newer than 25 years old, or what happened to the light truck import market
>>65458436>>65458454>nooo why aren't you buying our toxic slop? you need to stop making safety regulations and let our billionaires poison you for profit too!you're reminding me of that one chinese auto manufacturer I vaguely recall reading about seething that they couldn't get their knockoff range rover past western safety regulations back in the 2000s/early 2010s
>>65458470>Roundup lawsuits filed against Monsanto (now Bayer)>The Monsanto Company (/mɒnˈsæntoʊ/) was an American agrochemical and agricultural biotechnology corporation founded in 1901 and headquartered in Creve Coeur, Missouri
>>65458473is round up a carcinogen or not
>>65458469There's literally thousands of cases like that across various sectors. Chinese EVs are still generally banned in the USA right now because the Nevo A06 would destroy the USA EV market, specifically it would destroy the "luxury" priced Tesla and Rivian brands. The Telo MT1 is a lot cooler however and would maybe survive. But the chinese firms get to sell their batteries in the USA, almost at monopoly.
>>65458473>the EU was literally created out of a euro biased model to exploit and disadvantage superior foreign markets and industries and investments (the USA primarily).well why do you think the USA were created? obviously because together they could fuck their competion better than each of the 50 states for itself alone. without the EU we would be helpless against china, russia, usa. united we stand divided, we fall. remember that?genius observation from you here anon.
>>65458479I have no doubt that the chinese auto market is doing far better now, but this was from back when the country was outputting all those michael bay-tier traffic accident videosiirc the manufacturer in question ended up getting banned from at least one country after they got caught trying to pass safety tests by submitting an actual range rover with the badges swapped>>65458482>protectionism (foreign):|>protectionism (domestic):O
>>65458486and the usa isnt protectionist as fuck?
>>65458499I was agreeing with >>65458482 pointing out that the US is equally protectionist, referring to how the person complaining about europe ITT is pretending that the US is totally innocent
>>65456324your own military loses to Ukrop drone consultants so bad they had to restart the FTX over and over and none of their(NATO) tactics ever worked IRL. We'll get to watch your seething in analog AND HD now.kek
>>65458883why are you using an AI image? at least spam one of the few videos of nato soldiers dying that actually happened. faggot.
>>65458889>he doesn't recognize itThat's an AI-upscaled image (for some reason) of a real screencap of an IDF soldier jumping off his Merkava and getting splatted by a fiber optic FPV
>>65458116>They literally put their entire nation on the lineHahaha they cowered behind years worth of American interceptor stockpiles. Expending THAADs to protect tel aviv condominiums.Everything was so shamelessly diverted to defending Israel that even US bases in the ME had to be abandoned they were so defenseless and now we have to bomb iran all the way from bases in Europe on behalf of our “greatest ally”.
>>65458404We don’t, but the zio zigger shills really want it to be that way.
>>65455604>bait out butthurt anons who think tanks aren't drone food with this one easy trick!>>65455664Are ya winnin' son?>German-made Leopard tanks sit beneath the nets, their turrets turned backward in the “travel position.” Some await repairs or maintenance like oil changes. Others, like one covered in spider webs, are parked in reserve for combat, though those orders have stopped coming.>Energetyk oversaw a crew swapping out the engine of a tank that had hit a mine and caught fire. Another tank had taken a drone strike to the turret, he said, pointing to its parking spot as he set off down a mud track through the woods with ammunition slung over his shoulder.>The damage occurred not during combat but “evacuations,” when tanks towed damaged equipment, effectively acting as extraordinarily expensive tractors.>Even then, said Archie, a gunner smoking a cigarette nearby, the tanks can venture out only in bad weather, when wind, rain and poor visibility mean fewer drones.>But Dima, whose cot was opposite, questioned the value of using Leopards as tractors, putting both tanks and crews at risk.>“For what? To recover a burned-out vehicle?” he added, incredulous. Better to retrain to fly drones, he said, as Mechan was doing at night, practicing with a console near his cot.>It felt strange and unfamiliar to fly drones, Mechan confessed, but he said the era of tanks is over.https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/25/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tanks.html>>65456324Here comes his meltdown again, this should be fun
>>65458883>y-your own military loses t-to ukrop drone consultantsit doesn't, my retarded dronenigger friend>b-but the wargamesnot how that works.>n-no you're seething not me!!!!lol you're mad dronenigger.>k-kekyou're not laughing.
>>65458905>droneniggers also obsessed with AIslopnot surprising.
>>65459042>humiliate yourself as a mentally ill dronenigger and pretend to yourself that your retarded opinions are "baiting"embarrassing lol.>n-noooo you're having a melty not meeee!!you've made approximately 5 threads now where you seethe consistently for weeks on end about the fact that tanks aren't obsolete, your inorganic shilling campaign is beyond a meltdown, it's a complete and utter obsession of the highest order and displays an incredibly unhealthy mind.
