>Japan Reportedly Planning Air to Air Variant of ASM-3 Anti-Ship Missilehttps://theaviationist.com/2026/08/31/japan-planning-anti-air-variant-asm3/>Japan’s Record FY2027 Budget Request: Focus on New FFM, ASEV and Submarineshttps://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2026/08/japan-record-fy2027-defense-budget-new-ffm-submarines/>Mystery military vehicle spotted in Japan sparks online debatehttps://defence-blog.com/mystery-military-vehicle-spotted-in-japan-sparks-online-debate/?ampWhy is Japan building so many new weapons? Are they planning to recreate Manchukuo?
>>65470670
>>65470670>Why is Japan building so many new weapons? Because of the Chinese military build up and a US administration that will throw them under the bus when SHTF.
>>65470670>Why is Japan building so many new weapons?I remember my first arms race. It was right after my first beer.
>>65470670>Japan decides to spend 2% on defense>Chinks shit their pants
>>65470670>Mystery military vehicle spotted in Japan sparks online debateSo what's it. Anyone wanna guess?
>>65470867Already fairly well known program. Type 89 replacement IFV
>>65470867Its obviously a tank or a new ifv
>>65470892Where are the anti tank missiles? I need it to carry anti tank missiles like the type 89 does...
Well, this confirms GCAP will have a massive IWB.ASM-3 is almost 6 meters in length, so an AAM derived from that is also going to be similarly sized.I believe this makes it the longest western IWB for a fighter ever put in service.
>>65470892Did it get a name yet?
>>65470867I think it's just a new hull for the Type 89, not the UGV thing>>65470892>>65470923isn't that just the "new" UGV they revealed in DSEI 2025? It has a slopmaster and switchblades in the crew compartment
>>65470927>I believe this makes it the longest western IWB for a fighter ever put in service.
>>65470941
>>65470923Japan has the luxury of spreading those capabilities across multiple systems since they will always be locally available.>>65470934Only happens when they enter service.>>65470941You are mixing up multiple programs. The hull in your pic is essentially cancelled. >>65470951 This, what you are thinking of is the UGV built from old Type 89 hulls and new turrets and isn't a from scratch design. >>65470892 and >>65470867 are the next IFV and are being built as a new system with turrets from the Type 24 ICV
>>65470942Anon, you posted an engine with a stand-in render of an airframe.Tell me when the USAF is confirmed to be developing an internally carried 6M+ missile for F-47.
>>65471064>>65470942Also, GCAP is expected to be ~70-75 feet in length, F-47 is only expected to be ~65-70 feet in length.So at best they're the same length, but GCAP will likely be slightly longer, and because of japanese ASMs, requires a minimum of a 6 meter IWB, which the US doesn't have a need for (at the moment the largest IWB missile is the AIM-424, and the US likely wouldn't develop a new IWB missile JUST for the F-47).
>>65471078>the US likely wouldn't develop a new IWB missile JUST for the F-47You underestimate the randomness of Congressional appropriations. Pic not related.
>>65471161You overestimate the ability of US MIC in their current predicament.No one has the capacity to make a brand new cleansheet missile for a single airframe.AIM-120/AIM-260/AIM-424 work because they'll fit in existing IWBs, and future IWBs. A larger missile beyond the AIM-424 would be relegated to JUST the F-47 and maybe the B-21, which seems moronic and a complete waste of time/money.I just highly doubt they'll do it, even if somewhere some MIC has the blueprint ready.
>Japan, Italy and Germany in GCAPLooks like the band is back together This time featuring bongs
>>65471121>Slaughtered and tortured hundreds of thousands of Chinese peopleDo people actually believe this shit? Unit 731 only had about 100 actual researchers and assistants with not all of them even conducting human experiments, but now the mythology has developed into the slaughter of hundreds of thousands by hand. 98% of their alleged kill count is attributed to biological warfare rather than human experiments in a war where the Chinese were actively using biological agents themselves and official policy for retreat was poisoning wells.
>>65471161Glorious picture, GOD bless the United States.
>>65471190To be fair to the PRC, that was the RoC and Cash Mai-Chek doing that. They also intentionally flooded central chinese countryside to try and slow down the Japanese army at one point.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood
>>65471174Germany can't get over themselves enough to join GCAP.They've basically been straight told they'll have zero input on the manned fighter airframe, and no real meaningful workshare or IP.And Airbus defense CEO straight up said that germany would only work on a project that gives them "significant" say on the airframe design and local workshare and IP input. So yeah, those two things aren't compaitable.Far more likely Germany pretends Team Gen6 is worth "exploring" and throws a few billion and half a decade or more away on that bullshit before panicking and buying more F-35s.
>>65471216Well yeah, pretty much every side in the East was doing wild shit. When you look at the Pacific theater through the lens of a bunch of emergent Asian powers larping as 19th century European Imperial powers in the 20th century it makes a lot of sense. WW1 did a lot to "civilize" warfare in the West where the East didn't really experience that lesson. Especially when you look at immediate Post-War actions of the Sinosphere and the Korean peninsula you realize that all of the seething about Japan is because it wasn't their side with the power doing it all. All the grand standing moralfagging of the Korea's and China is like nails on chalk board when you look at shit like the Great Leap Forward or Bodo League Massacre where they inflict equally heinous shit on their own countrymen in a much more recent time frame.
>>65471166>which seems moronic and a complete waste of time/money.You've clearly never paid attention to Congress.
I got a Type 99 with an intact chrysanthemum for like $375 at an auction a couple of years ago. Felt like a steal.
>>65471393>I got a Type 99 for like $375Hell yeah.
>>65471292Well they've not made custom 1-off air to air missiles for the F-22 or F-35 yet.AIM-424 is the closest, but since it's F-35C limited, it means it'll fit in the F-47 IWB if the USAF wanted to use it. I see no reason why they'd start making a 1-off for the F-47.
>>65471166What if they were to design a weapons bay long enough to accommodate two AMRAAMs end to end, and them later on adopt a new missile that was that long on its own?
>>65470670>Why is Japan building so many new weapons? Japan knows what China intends to do.
>>65470735>and a US administration that will throw them under the busThe Biden admin has been out of office for some 2 years now.
>>65470927There is no evidence that Japan wants GCAP to carry this internally, but that doesn't mean they can't AIM-424 it and make a smaller version that will fit.
>>65471078>the US likely wouldn't develop a new IWB missile JUST for the F-47The F-47's bays will probably be the same length as the F-35's.
>>65471669anon, trump sucks china dick at every opportunity and no knows why, he does the same shit with putin
>>65471674Eh, they'll probably larger, even if just by a meter or two.>>65471533Unlikely due to the size of the airframe. double AMRAAM size is almost 8 meters in length.For a jet that's only expected to be ~19-22 meters, that's a massive amount of space for an IWB.>>65471672Why the fuck would they design a brand new AAM that can ONLY be carried externally by GCAP when both the new AAM and GCAP are expected to enter service in the next decade?Especially when we already know GCAP is targeting 10,000lbs payload (double the F-35). So an ~50-60% increased IWB length isn't really absurd.
>>65471672They were already looking at a bay large enough to carry the old version of the ASM-3 and the new Type 25, so this new ASM-3 would already qualify to fit. It also fits the idea that GIGO has touted that GCAP would target high value strategic targets while the CCA would handle smaller A2A and A2G engagements
>>65471682Work on your english my wumao friend.
>>65470941>slopmasterkys, the bushmaster is a great weapon, and will remain one until a suitable replacement is fielded.
>>65471190>Slaughtered and torturedThis is a misnomer, they tested biological weapons on chinese civilians, but I dont think considering this either a 'slaughter' or 'torture' is accurate. Chinese 'people' like to act like they personally imprisoned and tested on hundreds of thousands of chinks, but this just isn't the case. They tested on a select few, including white POWs, to gauge the effects of biological agents, and the results of these test exonerated/ prevented judgement of many members of the research teams from punishment in post-war warcrime tribunals. I dont think a single one was held responsible for their tests.
>>65471494What’s questionable is that it would actually be a one off when they keep talking about how they want F-15EX to carry outsized long range munitions, and one of the concepts we saw for such a weapon was for a very long two stage A2A missile. One might argue that it doesn’t make much sense to design a weapon exclusively for the F-15 in this day and age. Not insignificant sums of money began flowing into long range A2A missile research around the end of last decade, from both the Air Force and Navy. I would not bet the farm that the plane ordered in 2025 is all that similar to what they thought they’d be building in 2019 when the first demonstrator flew just because only the Navy has shown what they were working on. Cost has never been a particular object for the USAF, and with the variety of drone platforms they are looking to bring into service in the 2030s I would not assume all future weapon acquisitions are necessarily being planned around the F-35’s bays.
>>65470670Japan is getting economically slaughtered at the moment. They can't afford to play with expensive toys anymore.
>>65472104>at the momentits been that way since the 90s, all asian countries are feeling the pain, especially chinks
>>65471881The F-15 will probably remain a primary weapon carrier into the 2050's, hence the F-15EX. It isnt meant to be a primary interceptor, but a multipurpose airframe capable of carrying larger munitions to rape enemies from longer ranges than the F-35 bays allow. It could probably also be carried by the F-35, albeit from outside its internal bays.
>>65470670F-35B carriers everywhere
>>65472104Japan has a $1T foreign exchange reserve. They can keep this up for a decade.It's not ideal, but they're hardly going to be forced to stop development.
>>65471669nobody would help japan if china invades
>>65472436nobody from Europe yeah
>>65472436China can't invade Taiwan, an invasion of Japan is laughable.
>>65471669That's why they are so worried
>>65472436an actual attack on anime Mecca would draw in a lot of fanatics from around the world
>>65472436I imagine the occupants of the 70 or so American military installations, including the 7th fleet headquarters, would not be particularly happy.
>>65472133At a certain point I think it’s fair to question how capable a non stealth airframe or airframe with its stealth compromised by external ordnance would actually be in that very long range air to air role against an adversary that actually justifies the use of such weapons. They would be useful in that role today but I’m not sure that still holds even a decade from now, let alone in 2050.
>>65473224I guess you could probably convert them into unmanned platforms if survivability becomes a major issue without that much difficulty, but they're not purpose built for it. I think that is what will happen to the EXs eventually regardless.
>>65472616"They" meaning China in this context.
>>65470670Japan is an aryan country.
>>65472531who is gonna directly attack a nuclear power?there is a reason why this never happens moron>>65472550>china cant invade taiwanany reason as to why you think this is the case? and not lets say the countless times we have seen them naval blockading them as an exrcise ?>>65472790and there is nothing they can do nobody is gonna directly attack china or usa or russia if they are a nuclear power for obvious reasons
>>65474704>any reason as to why you think this is the case?>First Taiwan Strait Crisis>Second Taiwan Strait Crisis>Saying they would shoot down Nancy Pelosi and threatening war if she did land on Taiwan>Kinmen IslandRetaking Taiwan is so fundamental to the foundational myth of the CCP that if they could do it, they would have already. There are probably a dozen other more worthwhile and politically advantageous to China than fucking with Taiwan, but they are incapable of giving that single thing up. If they are this apprehensive about taking an island of 23 million people 100mi off their coast then they are 100 years from taking an island of 122 million people 500 mi off their coast.
>>65474735there is no need to go full alexander the great on them thats the point they can invade the take it by force? ofc they can only idiots think that they cant but why do this when you can achieve the same with blockadeeither way the point is one they can also dont act like this isnt the same situation as hawaii is to usa if back then the french knew and had 2 braincell of how important hawaii is usa would have being sent back to the stone age but napoleon being napoleon didnt cared enough
>>65473224Kind of like how an M16's accuracy is compromised by prolonged exposure to desert sun, or a microwave oven can create a miniature black hole. An F-35 with external ordnance will still get a lock-on against a non-stealth fighter from hundred times the distance the non-stealth fighter will get against the F-35. It doesn't suddenly have the same RCS as a non-stealth fighter just because it has something on external pylons.
>>65474548this
>>65475277wrongwest taiwan will be absorbed peacefully back into the true chinese republic.>m-muttniggerseething thirdie alert>amerigroidsweird reddit phrasingsorry china keeps losing lil bro.
>>65474901It has enough of a negative impact that the need is felt to develop unique LO pylons for each weapon the F-35 is expected to carry externally, and in at least the AIM-9’s case a unique LO variant was developed. It’s not some minimal write off that barely effects detection, non stealth optimized weapons very often have a greater radar return than the platform carrying them.
>>65470735if you fucking losers touched a single hair on a Japanese head we'd glass you. cope seethe etc.>>65471682shut the fuck up, pay your tariffs, while buying our oil
>>65470670Everyone is building weapons to deter Chinese aggression. The Indians are rapidly upscaling their stealth fighter fleet. The Indonesians are getting a carrier. The USMC is reinforcing the Pacific Fleet. It's all the keep the little yellow men down.
>>65470670>Why is Japan building so many new weapons?Because the United States can no longer be considered a reliable defense partner and they need to maintain sufficient strength to deter overly aggressive Chinese expansion and control of territorial water.
>>65476987This is pants on head retarded and you're probably a bot.
>>65476992Do you have an actual argument, or are you just a deranged MIGA?The US has never been a more unreliable international partner, at least not since the 1860s.
>>65476983>The Indians are rapidly upscaling their stealth fighter fleetA rapid upscale of 0 from 0? AMCA is still in infinite purgatory of delusional gloating to shameless begging. Su-57 sales are stalled because they can't stop asking for full localized production and even a hand in manufacturing Russian models. Any program with the French will be delayed until the 2040s or 2050s. There are about a dozen better countries to cite as increasing their capabilities before Nurgles horde.
>>65477048Su57 talks stalled because even if India placed an order there is zero reason to believe russia could actually deliver.They've yet to deliver more than a handful at a time to their OWN airforce and you think theyll be able to export dozens to india in under a decade?
>>65477012Major cope
>>65470670Bad. Japanese militarism on the rise.
>>65477362AYAYAYA ANGRY TO DIE
>>65470927>>65471078>>65471750I keep forgetting how fucking big GCAP is supposed to be.
>>65477878I remember that pic showing the side of 2nd generation fighters/interceptors and above, where things like the Blackbird and the Arrow are the biggest, and some Anon commenting that 6th gen will be as big as that.
>>65470690Lmao China can't compete so all they can do is whine about militarism.
>>65478494F-111 was 73 feet in length. GCAP is expected to be be 70-75 feet in length.
>>65477362
>>65470838/Thread
>>65470670Japan's economy is going to collapse within a couple years.None of this is going to happen.
>>65479761Chinks have been saying that since the late 1990s.
>>65471174Germany would ruin the GCAP like they ruin every other international agreement.
>>65479765The US is floundering to buy Yen to keep Japan solvent.
>>65479770And?That's hardly their final option, they're simply choosing options that are "cheapest".They're nowhere near a failed economy or bankrupt or any other bullshit.They own over a trillion in foreign exchange reserves and have excellent credit with very low interest rates. It's not IDEAL, but acting like this is japan on the cusp of complete economic failure is retardation at a level that tells me you have zero understanding of macroeconomics.
>Japan's economy is going to collapse>China's economy is going to collapse>America's economy is going to collapseEither none of these statements are true or the word 'collapse' just isn't applicable.
>>65479768FCAS was ruined by France (shocker) wanting a naval fighter, Germany's need for a big heavyweight fighter aligns with what Japan, Italy and the UK are going for.
>>65480721Yes, but Airbus says germany won't join any program that doesn't give them "significant" influence on the design and workshare. Which is never happening with GCAP, so they won't get to join, even if it IS the best capability match for what germany needs.Instead germany will play along with Team Gen 6 for a bit while building drone wingmen, then when they realize team gen 6 is a dead end they'll buy more F-35s.
>>65480724Or they will do what Canada did and become an observer.
>>65480728Canada joined as an observer because they already have multiple companies that have potential IP/expertise to contribute to the program and joining as an observer gives those companies access to classified technical briefings that will allow them to more accurately propose what they can bring to GCAP. At the moment the biggest and most obvious angle that has already been mentioned publicly is CAE inc. They can leverage their simulator/training IP for GCAP. https://breakingdefense.com/2026/07/cae-hopes-canadas-new-gcap-status-brings-industry-business/Once CAE has had a year or two to put together a formal well planned proposal with a viable cost analysis and timeline, they can then offer to join GCAP further as a tier 2 partner. Airbus has already said they're not joining a program they have no say on the airframe design. GCAPs airframe design is being finalized right now with a lock in date slated for the end of 2027.And any attempts by germany to negotiate anything TODAY would 100% result in delays to the 2035 in-service goal.
>>65480747Why are you acting like it is Airbus's decision to make?
>>65481110Because it largely is.You're kidding yourself if you think a German politician has the balls to go against Airbus/MTU.Same shit with France and Dassault. Trappier unironically has more say about long term French defense policy than anyone actually elected to office.
>>65481121>You're kidding yourself if you think a German politician has the balls to go against Airbus/MTUMeanwhile the alternative you are proposing is another non Airbus plane.
>>65481133Yes, which they've already bought.Airbus is just lying to milk the R&D money that was slated for FCAS.They don't care if team Gen 6 is real or not.When the German politicians are up against the wall in 2029-33 they'll buy more F-35s cause it's the path of least resistance (politically).To not do team Gen 6 and "force" airbus to take a nothing role within GCAP is simply not a fight any current German politician wants to touch.
>>65481154And how will Airbus get that money when the only options are the F-35 and GCAP? This is the point I was making, they can shit and piss and cry all they want but ultimately their only hope is to get some GCAP scraps.
>>65470670>We cant just ignore the piece of paper the united states made us sign in 1945 in which we renounce war by simply not giving a shit about it because we just cant.retarded laws should just be ignored as the piece of paper that it is
>>65481278Because german politicians are pussies.I can pretty much guarantee they'll throw money at team gen 6, despite the obvious lack of any technical pathway to a 6th gen fighter.Throwing money at Airbus/MTU via Team Gen 6 is "easy" because it provides local jobs and keeps the military primes happy. GCAP is simply never happening because germany is too pussy to "force" airbus to accept a minor role. If GCAP ever does happen, it'll be as a pure buyer sometime in the 2030-40s.
>>65479761Ironically, Japan probably the one that need a hard reset the most. The collapse will make their Zaibatsus and bankers to stop being retard.
>>65471839They also tested frostbite on them. Deliberately freezing limbs and then working out via trail and error what was the best way to thaw them
>>65471682Everybody knows why. Some just refuse to believe their lying eyes
>>65474704>who is gonna directly attack a nuclear power? Another one. If both have the bombs neither can use them without getting hit back where it hurts. Like large urban centers. This leaves conventional war in the periphery fair game as ukraine showed in kursk. Or changs could demonstrate by snatching away chunks of siberia
>>65477048>>65477208Su-57 stalled because even street shitters saw it has the RCS of a 4th gen. Since it's nothing more than a body kit shaped to look like a fifth gen
>>65479776It's just changs projecting their own failures. Imagine having a japan style stagnation and aging population with a fraction of its education and majority living in poverty
>>65481289huh?
>>65481444>Su-57 stalled because it was a glorified old soviet project which got resurrected during early 2000s as a "russia stronk" propaganda projectfixed
Would love to see Japan makes some of their own F-15EX.
>>65486802They're upgrading their existing F-15Js to the F-15JSI, which is essentially an EX equivalent (slightly worse since they're not new airframes and lack a handful of features).
>>65486814Calling it equivalent is a bit of a stretch, fundamentally they’ll still be effectively very souped up F-15Cs. It’s a nice avionics and software upgrade but you’re getting something closer to an RMP F-15E than the EX proper.
>>65487376Ehhhhh that's selling it too short.The avionics package is more than just a minor update: it matches the EX in most areas. The JSI incorporates the ADCP II and modern glass cockpit architecture. It also includes the EPAWSS (AN/ALQ-250) EW system, which is part of the F-15EX standard. All it's really missing are the digital fly-by-wire changes, which allow for a higher payload, and unlocking the outer wing pylons (stations 1 and 9). And then the fact they're older airframes and thus have fewer flight hours available than newly built F-15EXs.
>>65487491The payload improvements are probably the most operationally impactful for an airframe that is going to be mostly useful for homeland defense in an age where any attack is likely to include massive salvos of cheap one way drones. Two EXs carry as many missiles as three JSIs, which is a massive advantage in that role. There’s also the question of APKWS integration, which will presumably come to the EXs fairly quickly as it was very quickly done with the Es, but to my knowledge we’ve not seen Japan pursuing that capability. I think you’re also massively underselling the age of the airframes being upgraded, they’re not just older from what I can find the youngest F-15Js are getting very close to turning 30 and have been in very high demand in recent years. The program is a nice stopgap until they can get GCAP online but it’s pretty fundamentally limited by the airframes they are working with and is not doing enough to help it in its most likely role by the time it comes online.
>>65486814>>65487376>>65487491With how fucking retarded Goying has been with actually doing the upgrade with numerous delays, MHI should have just told them to fuck off and kick rocks, then upgraded their F-15J's with F-2A systems and supplemented some of that with systems developed for F-X.>F110-129s>J/APG-2 or experimental F-X radar>MELCO IRST>MELCO EW>MELCO mission computer>JAE FBW>J/APR-4B RWR
>>65487527You make a fair point on missile density; carrying 12 AMRAAMs on an EX vs 8 on a JSI is definitely a real advantage for intercept capacity. And yeah, JASDF airframes have taken a beating doing routine scrambles over the East China Sea.But calling it not enough for its role misses how Japan actually plans to use them:Drone swarm defense Isn't an F-15 Mission: You don't burn flight hours on a twin-engine heavy fighter to shoot $4k drones with APKWS rockets. Mass drone defense in Japan's doctrine falls on ground-based SAMs (Type 03 Chū-SAM), naval Aegis, and short-range air defense. The JSI's job is dealing with PLAAF J-20s, bombers, and cruise missiles.Survivability > Magazine Depth: Against high-end threats, having APG-82 AESA radar + EPAWSS EW is what keeps the jet alive. An F-15JSI with 8 missiles and full EPAWSS protection is infinitely more useful in a high-threat environment than a jet with 12 missiles and legacy electronic warfare.Smart Budgeting for GCAP: Japan specifically selected the 68 cleanest, lowest-hour J-MSIP airframes for JSI. Because GCAP (their 6th-gen fighter) comes online in the 2030s, they don't need a 20,000-hour new factory airframe like the USAF needed for the EX. Getting ~85-90% of an EX's combat capability for ~30% of the cost per hull is just smart force planning.>>65487541Blaming Boeing for delays is fair, but trying to turn the F-15J into a 100% domestic Frankentech jet would have cost twice as much, taken 5 years longer, and yielded a worse air-to-air fighter
>>65487546>Blaming Boeing for delays is fair, but trying to turn the F-15J into a 100% domestic Frankentech jet would have cost twice as much, taken 5 years longer, and yielded a worse air-to-air fighterThe US made this exact same point about FS-X program that resulted in the F-2A, but the F-2A ended up being significantly worse than the original plan for the FS-X, costed more than the original MHI estimate for a fully domestic fighter, and took roughly the same amount of time as a fully domestic fighter would. MHI actually proposed this exact sort of concept after the fully domestic fighter was denied and said they could just upgrade F-15s with domestic systems for super cheap and fairly quickly. Meanwhile JSI:>Announced in 2019>Planned IOC in 2022 for 98 airframesNow>Unknown IOC because of Boeing delays>Reduced to 68 airframes because of cost overruns by BoeingI really fail to see how a domestic upgrade program could do any worse than that. Japan has already upgraded their F-15s with numerous domestic EW, FCS, OFP, IFF with no issues, so I don't really see it being a problem now.
>>654875464th generation airframes do not have survivability against 5th generation airframes. I’ve not seen anything from real life operations or even war games to suggest otherwise. The 5th generation aircraft will always see first and shoot first, and for whatever shortcomings Chinese kit has it can’t really be said their missiles aren’t able to get out to at least the detection range of their radars. Drone swarm defense is an F-15 mission. They’ve been used for it regularly in the Middle East in recent years, and you will happily burn hours on an airframe when the alternative is the facilities in your airfields burning. From what we have seen demonstrated in recent conflicts ground based air defenses cannot deal with sustained drone swarm attacks. They’ve production economics so far very strongly favor the drones, and you can always send enough to overwhelm local defenses. Interception by aircraft has been the only way to mitigate this, as they can begin thinning the swarm from much farther away, can concentrate to defend against attacks that are not local to where they are deployed, and can employ very cheap weapons to help flip the production economics against the attacker.
>>65487578You're ignoring how F-35s and F-15s actually fight together: F-15JSIs aren't meant to duel J-20s one-on-one. In modern network-centric warfare, F-35s fly forward passively tracking targets, then data-link missile cues back to F-15JSIs/EXs acting as heavy missile trucks from safe standoff ranges. That's why the F-15JSI gets the ADCP II mission computer and modern datalinks; it functions as an extension of the F-35's magazine.Further, US jets shot down Shahed drones in the Middle East because the airspace was completely uncontested; there were no S-400 SAMs or J-20 patrols. In a high-intensity war with China, flying twin-engine F-15s down low to hunt $5k drones with rockets makes them prime targets for PLAAF fighters and SAM umbrellas. Drone defense over Japanese airfields relies on Type 03 Chū-SAMs, Aegis, short-range AD, and directed energy, not burning airframe hours on heavy interceptors.>>65487562The F-2 program was plagued by massive cost overruns and delays precisely because MHI tried to completely re-engineer an American airframe (F-16) with domestic composite wings, flight software, and radars. It resulted in wing-cracking issues and made the F-2 one of the most expensive 4th-gen jets ever built per unit. Bringing up FS-X disproves your own point.Swapping out an IFF transponder or RWR on an F-15 (what Japan did in the past) is basic maintenance. Stripping out the APG-82 AESA radar, ADCP II mission computer, and flight control integration to build a custom Japanese flight bus without Boeing's source code would have cost billions in Non-Recurring Engineering (NRE) and taken over a decade.Blaming Boeing for supply chain delays is completely fair, but pretending MHI could have magically built a 100% custom, cheap, reliable domestic F-15 conversion with zero Boeing input is pure fantasy.
>>65487594>The F-2 program was plagued by massive cost overruns and delays precisely because MHI tried to completely re-engineer an American airframe (F-16) with domestic composite wings, flight software, and radars.All of the domestic Japanese sub systems came within budget and on time. Most of the delays and cost overruns came from US contractors being retarded and failing to adjust to Japan's economy of scale especially after the reduction in the fleet size.>It resulted in wing-cracking issuesThis was a one off issue when loading AIM-7s on the outer wing pylons on one of the prototypes. This was fixed in the production versions and much heavier wing loads were applied later in service. The only other documented case was a single 20 year old airframe. I don't see where cost overruns come in with either case as there was no fleet wide replacement of wing boxes in either case.>Swapping out an IFF transponder or RWR on an F-15 (what Japan did in the past) is basic maintenance. Stripping out the APG-82 AESA radar, ADCP II mission computer, and flight control integration to build a custom Japanese flight bus without Boeing's source code would have cost billions in Non-Recurring Engineering (NRE) and taken over a decade.Except they did this and much more with the conversion of the F-16 airframe to the F-2 in 5 years while developing almost all of the sub-systems from scratch. This F-15J conversion would be using entirely off the shelf products.
>>65487594It is questionable that an F-15 can fulfill that role. We have yet to actually see any VLRAAM integrated to an F-15. As things stand today the F-15 is a very easily detected 4th generation airframe that does not carry weapons with the range to sit outside a peer adversary’s engagement range and fire into it with impunity. In fact it is easier to argue the opposite is true. An F-15 today is a capable drone swatter with secondary strike capabilities in permissive environments. Asking it to be more than it is will not work out well. Also your last posts read like they were done by an LLM
>>65470670>Why is Japan building so many new weaponsBecause of China's new $99k/ea hypersonic boost gliders released in 2025 with field tested video (yes you may see it, on bilibili).
>>65487620>It is questionable that an F-15 can fulfill that role. We have yet to actually see any VLRAAM integrated to an F-15.Japan started integration work on the ASM-3 into F-15Js after cancelling LRASM integration into JSI. Combine this with the new ASM-3 Kai having AAM capabilities and that solves that issue.
>>65487620>>65487641https://web.archive.org/web/20260217095307/https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/data/info/ny_gifu/pdf/kouji/kouji07-024.pdfHere's the doc talking about it
>>65487641Using an anti ship missile as an air to air weapon is something that has not been done before and will need to be validated. It would be a useful capability if they can get it working properly, but that still remains a very big if
>>65487661I mean it's already validated. The new JSDF budget calls for the ASM-3 Kai to enter mass production with that added capability. As for why others haven't done it yet, the only other countries who actively make a supersonic ALCM are the jeets and Russians and I wouldn't trust either to actually transition them into an AAW weapon. The Euros are developing a similar ALCM/VLRAAM from scratch, so it is a desirable concept. Really its just a logical evolution path since the ASM-3 started with a modified AAM-4B seeker head.
>>65487680Again, I need to see a lot in the way of successful tests here. I’ve been around long enough to have watched a lot of seemingly promising weapons fail to deliver on their promises, and the “do everything” type are especially bad about that. I need more than a budget line item and a concept from Europe that isn’t scheduled to fly for years yet.
>>65487694I just don't see what the major hold up in the program would be which would prevent the program from being taken at face value. It's a giant missile already with an AESA seeker adapted and enlarged from an AESA AAM seeker. What is the major hold up here where you think a fat missile with an AESA seeker can't smack into a tanker or AWACS. Your only argument so far is that the US didn't adapt subsonic Harpoons or subsonic JSMs into an anti air weapon, so obviously this must be some ambitious project.
>>65487745End game maneuverability, performance at altitude, what kind of warhead are they using to be effective in both roles, are there any design choices made for one role that disadvantage it in the other? It is very easy to find an unhappy medium when designing anything for multiple roles. My argument has not mentioned the US once. It is something that no country on earth has done before, and as such I would like to see a bare minimum of proof that it actually works before I start singing its praises.
>>65487780God if only you retards would apply this level of scrutiny to EVERY defense program.
>>65487796I do. I got burned thinking jets and helicopters would be zapping stuff with podded lasers in a couple years when they showed they were testing it in iirc 2019 and that was the last straw. Since then I trust it works when they prove it works.
>>65487780>End game maneuverabilityIt's shooting down tankers and AWACS, no one is using these VLRAAMs for anti-fighter work.>performance at altitudeASM-3 already has a High altitude cruise mode, so not an issue>what kind of warhead are they using to be effective in both rolesIt doesn't really matter that much when you are putting a 6m telephone pole through the side of a tanker, but Japan was already developing a dual omni directional proximity EFP warhead combined with a regular HEAT warhead, so you can get a telephone pole sized hole and 3 dozen smaller holes through the electronics and engines just so you can sleep well at night.>It is very easy to find an unhappy medium when designing anything for multiple roles.Like 90% of weapons are this now. AIM-174B is a dual anti-ship anti-air weapon developed from the dual role SM-6. The new Euro missile is literally a do everything missile. S-400s were pushed into an anti surface role.>My argument has not mentioned the US once.You said no one else has adapted an SSM into an anti air role before. The obvious comparison would be the US which is also adopting a VLRAAM. The argument could be applied to French, British, Germans, etc. 99% of the world operates sub sonic ASMs that couldn't be adapted to an anti air role. Of the countries that could be counted on one hand that do, Russia, Taiwan and Japan are the only ones that actually operate them from fighter sized aircraft. The Kh-31 is a 50 year old missile that isn't being actively developed and the HF-3 is a brand new program and Taiwan's first foray into supersonic ALCMs without any of the capabilities to fully utilize a VLRAAM. Give me a single actual argument besides>Other countries didn't make their non-existent supersonic ASMs into anti air weapons
>>65470670aryan country
>>65487831>I thought jets would be shooting missiles down with lasers a couple years after 2019 when only system actually capable of that energy output in 2019 was attached to an Arleigh BurkeThat isn't you being burned, that's you being a fucking retard. On what planet is that tech miniaturized to fit on a jet in "a couple years". It's amazing you could have that level of retardedly high expectations, but a big missile shooting down a big plane is a bridge too far.
>>65487847>>654877803rd anon here, I'd personally add that if you have F-35s/UCAVs providing passive (EOTS/IRST) tracking/targeting, even a J-20 is fucked if a Mach 3 ram jet missile fired from an old F-15 suddenly turns on its AESA seeker ~6 seconds from impact.
>>65487847The post that started this tangent was talking about F-15s shooting at J-20s guided by F-35s. AWACS is a valid target but significantly more vulnerable than what was first being talked about. Fair points on the next twoI’ve looked for but not found any direct statements from the Navy saying AIM-174B is to be employed or is able to be employed as an anti surface weapon. From what I’ve seen it is to be used entirely as an interim A2A capability before AIM-424, with nothing confirming it actually can be employed in those other roles. While it isn’t impossible it seems to be something internet defense commentators took as a certainty without a word from the Navy. In a similar sense the shipborne SM-6 has BMD capabilities but I wouldn’t take it as guaranteed that it is set up to be able to do so from a Super Hornet. MDA is considering it as a base for a hypersonic missile defense, but they also seemingly intend to modify the payload significantly and it would need significant validation and testing. There is not a particular shortage of nations operating supersonic cruise missiles, I wasn’t limiting it to just anti ship. However we are yet to see anyone demonstrate one of these cruise missiles killing an aircraft, which I would like to see. >>65487873I was going off what was reported at the time, where they said it had successfully destroyed targets at White Sands. I made no mention of missiles in my post, and think it would be much better suited for more safely and cheaply shooting down the one way attack drones that have become ubiquitous in modern war. There was a lot of optimism about airborne DEWs being reported at the end of last decade, that hasn’t materialized into a useful capability as yet. Article for context https://www.twz.com/11840/laser-apache-has-successfully-fried-targets-on-white-sands-missile-range
>>65487546>You don't burn flight hours on a twin-engine heavy fighter to shoot $4k drones with APKWS rocketsF-15E were the first fighters we saw with APKWS
>>65487847>no one is using these VLRAAMs for anti-fighter workBig slow assets are their primary targets but ones like AIM-424 with their dual pulse motors are very dangerous to fighters even at extended distances.
>>65487923Eh that’s a bit questionable. There’s the question of sensor quality and overall system effectiveness but the J-20 does appear to have IR sensors with similar placement to DAS, suggesting a missile detection capability beyond radar warning. 5th gens and beyond have put a lot of money into not getting surprised easily so it’s likely there’s at least some degree of earlier warning.
>>65487972>I was going off what was reported at the time, where they said it had successfully destroyed targets at White Sands.Your article>Apache mounted laser "tracked and hit" a drone with a laser at 1.4km>No reporting if it even damaged it, at best what can be interpreted is the ability to target a drone and keep a SSL on target from a moving platform>Pop-mil article filled with the faggot author talking about Star TrekEnd of the article>"If anything, adding a podded laser to combat helicopters in general is among the most sensible application of solid-state tactical lasers today, and far less ambitious when compared to other ongoing aerospace laser development programs, ranging from C-130 mounted lasers, to fighter mounted lasers, to high-flying drone mounted lasers.">Author talks about how this application that is in the teething stages without even having documented evidence of disabling a drone is way too ambitious on a fixed wing aircraftAnd somehow you interpreted this as "fighters zapping shit with lasers in a couple of years". You got mind raped by the headline of a twz article; one of the worst pop-mil repackaged for retarded boomers and tech bros website there is. You couldn't even make it past the first paragraph let alone the end. Interpreted the article as "lasers mounted on jets in 2 more weeks" even though the article didn't even come close to claiming that and actually claimed the opposite. Now I'm expected to believe you are some hyper skeptic who will take nothing short of first hand test documents when you were just recently unable to sit through a single twz article? I can't believe I wasted my time arguing with your gorilla nigger ass.
>>65488147No, it was the low hanging fruit I linked as an example because it was very easy to find. I don’t like them much either but they make a decent archive because they have the habit of linking every single article they’ve ever written on a subject any time they talk about it. There was a ton going on with podded laser research in the late 2010s that has since seemingly stalled out and been defunded, several of which were targeting similar energy levels to the ground based systems that we know do a decent job killing drones since border patrol keeps pissing off the FAA with them. Here’s a couple more examples from better sources some of the programs that looked promising but have still produced nothing fieldable. https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2017-11-06-Lockheed-Martin-Receives-Contract-to-Develop-Compact-Airborne-High-Energy-Laser-Capabilitieshttps://www.airandspaceforces.com/usaf-wants-to-study-more-powerful-airborne-laser-to-follow-f-15-pod/https://www.afrl.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2511692/afrls-shield-set-to-receive-critical-assembly/I was very excited about all this, as it seemed like we were on the cusp of some very revolutionary developments, but it seems to be perpetually just a few years down the road and never getting any closer.
>>65487923>>65487988A ramjet missile would be unironically easier to spot with EOIR due to the longer lower energy burn.
>>65470670Japan makes the strongest tanks and planes.
Taiwan buying USA jets toohttps://ibbDOTco/album/4PmLNR
>>65479761>Tokyo just reversed their population decline for the first time in decadesChang is scared.
>>65491634>>Tokyo just reversed their population decline for the first time in decadesThrough immigration?
>>65491784No, apparently through native births. Doubt it'll continue long term though, nobody has ever succeeded at reversing population decline
>>65493063Other than Israel of course.
>>65471682Dude has sold more weapons to Correct China than any administration. The got full blown F-16
>>65477208>>65481444Cant find the exact articleBut essentially the factory the russian built to make Su-30 can be used to make Su-57https://defence.in/threads/local-production-of-the-su-57-fighter-jet-will-significantly-reduce-costs-for-india-asserts-iaf-veteran.17396/Interesting comments they know Rafeal and Su-57 are behind but know they need anything right now.Wild to think that blackmail and corruption actually make a country better in Indias case.
>>65487491F-15EX airframe has a lot of stealth features built in
>>65470670Chinese counter-attack in the skies
>>65497010No it doesn't.They've got very basic RAM coatings on a few areas compared to a regular F-15E, but those RAM coatings on leading edges would result in at BEST a 10-20% reduction in RCS.Moving from 10-25m^2 to maybe 8-20m^2And for reference, if a radar can spot a 10m^2 airframe at 100 miles, it would spot an 8m^2 airframe at 95 miles.There is no massive stealth benefit on the EX compared to earlier F-15s. Most people just assume the F-15EX is based on the F-15SE concept, when it isn't. It's based on the F-15QA.
>>65481154It's ironic. Germany left FCAS because they wanted to revive their withering jet manufacturing industry and France wouldn't relinquish enough of the fighter jet work share. But that was the best deal they were going to get. Now it's basically guaranteed there won't be any German military jet industry for a long time. Their only paths are to scale up from building drones or buying the jet engine know how for an astronomical sum.
>>65472531obsessed
>>65501181GCAP workshare has not been assigned yet and France fucked itself by torpedoing yet another multinational programhttps://www.twz.com/air/france-accelerates-rafale-f5-upgrade-after-collapse-of-fcas-next-gen-fighter-project
>>65502482>GCAP workshare has not been assigned yetI mean, that's what is being finalized now.GCAP partners said they're finalizing workshare splits and that type of shit through the end of 2027. Which means, germany needs to join NOW if they actually want in (and it still wouldn't be major airframe work), or they're simply not joining as anything but a potential future customer.
>>65470867M10 Bookel
>>65502525They’re also competing with the Canadians there. Who totally aren’t pushing the angle that they’ll be a potential large buyer to secure workshare before Ottawa gets sticker shock when it’s time to actually order, but I digress.
>>65507433Canada isn't competing with Germany for workshare
>>65507433Canada hasn't sad a single word about how many they want, and don't act like Italy and the UK aren't doing the same fucking thing, italy will be lucky to buy 36, and the UK will be lucky to do the same, MAYBE 48. Japan is the only one that will probably actually end up buying 80-100+ jets.
>>65502482The only way Germany gets to jump in at the last second is by paying giant sums for manufacturing scraps. Japan won't tolerate delays.
>>65510190Honestly everyone is treating GCAP like it's Eurofighter 2.0 and it couldn't be further from the reality.
>>65507910https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2026/09/13/japan/politics/canadian-ambassador-interview/Canada’s ambassador was pretty explicit about their goals. There is only so much work to go around, especially when the domestic industries of every partner nation will need that work to stay in business in the coming decades. >>65507924They’ve just said they want full partnership and to be an industrial contributor. I doubt any existing partner would even entertain that if they are not pitching the pure chase of multiple squadrons.
>>65510214Lol no, they want to become a Tier2/3 partner, they are NOT trying to put themselves on the same level as Japan/UK/Italy.The things they're talking about are all software/logistics/training, not the manned airframe (which is what germany wants). Canada is literally offering shit none of the current GCAP partners have clearly declared as "theirs" yet.CAE alone already is deeply embedded with the RAF, AM, and JASDF training pipelines, and thus is a shoo-in for doing the simulation/mission systems/etc development for GCAP.
>>65510223https://jen.jiji.com/jc/i?g=eco&k=2026091200398Going to the original source for the interview I would say they are certainly angling to step on Italy’s toes here at the minimum. You could say they’re probably the least important current partner and I wouldn’t disagree, but if Canada is angling for avionics work share they’re not exactly looking for table scraps. The interview isn’t exactly the clearest on what exactly they’re pitching currently, or to what degree the ambassador knows what he’s talking about, but when the article is saying “the areas of aircraft, mission control systems, radar and satellite technologies” I have to imagine they would like some of the airframe work if they can get their hands on it.
>>65510246You're just reading broad diplomatic quotes literally and assuming GCAP works like a 1980s defense program where every partner gets a piece of the wing.Canada isn't competing for Tier-1 airframe status or stepping on Italy's lead role. Ottawa is targeting the software, sensor-integration, satellite, and synthetic simulation niches that the core three partners are ready to offload to a Tier-2 contributor before the 2027 deadline passes.MDA is offering space based IP and software integration for the avionics; they're not trying to displace Leonardo.
>>65510254I’m assuming that when each squadron a country buys would be a several billion dollar investment that they would want some sort of domestic industrial offset yes. As is generally the case when countries buy into programs of this size and have domestic companies working in that industry. GCAP is an ultra expensive product targeting the defense middle market, but has to deal with the looming specter of $20-30 million dollar autonomous fighter drones that will be competing with it for that same market. I think the existing partners will either have to accept giving up more work than they’d like to drive sales and bring down cost, or keep the good work to themselves and lose the cost savings from larger production runs. It is going to be a very difficult thing to sell GCAP without large industrial offsets when by the looks of things currently there will be a large number of drones on the market that would replace every fighter in a middle powers inventory sometimes at a greater than 1:1 ratio for the same cost as a single GCAP squadron assuming 12 planes per squadron.
>>65510271You're confusing force multipliers with force replacements. A $20M CCA drone is a missile truck with a small radar and limited processing power. It cannot operate as an autonomous fighter in high-end contested airspace on its own because it lacks the power, cooling, aperture size, and processing capability to run a theater battle cloud under heavy electronic warfare.Without a heavy 6th-gen quarterback like GCAP flying nearby to act as the edge-computing node and command hub, those cheap drones are dependent on satellite links that will be jammed on Day 1. You don't buy 12 GCAPs instead of drones; you buy 12 GCAPs so that your 50 cheap drones actually work.As for offsets: Canada isn't asking for physical airframe assembly for a 1-squadron buy. They're bringing specialized software, synthetic training (CAE), and satellite C2 (MDA). That doesn't steal work from BAE or Leonardo, it offloads massive software R&D costs off the core three partners, which is precisely how you bring the program's unit costs down.
>>65510298The countries that care enough about those things to drop upwards of $10 billion buying four squadrons of high end fighters are at this point mostly building their own. Everywhere else you will be facing intense scrutiny from budget hawks who will see that you can buy nearly a dozen drones for one GCAP. They won’t really care about how well it works, and that’s assuming there’s no massive leap in autonomy and communication packages between today and the early 2040s when GCAP is feasibly exportable in number. Looking at the advancements in aircraft autonomy in the last fifteen years, and things like starlink’s current direct laser communications, that’s not something I’d bet on personally. As regards workshare, if GCAP wants to be a next generation F-35 it will be competing with the precedents set by F-35, and that program handed out work like Halloween candy. “Do the shitty work nobody else wants and throw in a few billion for r&d” is a terrible pitch when the last guy paid development mostly by himself and handed out part production or in some cases even local assembly to any major customer who could handle it.
Your history of the F-35 is backward. Lockheed didn't 'hand out production like Halloween candy', partners had to pay billions in upfront SDD cash just to qualify for 'Best Value' competitive bidding. Canada paid $160M into JSF development and still had to compete for subcontracts. Italy and Japan only got FACO assembly plants because they spent billions building the facilities themselves. GCAP offering Canada a Tier-2 software/simulation mandate in exchange for targeted R&D is the F-35 playbook. On the tech side: Starlink laser links don't solve tactical air combat. Optical/laser communication breaks down when an aircraft rolls at 6 Gs through cloud cover, smoke, or rain. When satellite RF links get jammed in dense A2/AD environments, an autonomous drone has to rely on local edge computing.A $20M drone lacks the internal volume, power generation, and cooling to run a high-throughput battle cloud against near-peer EW on its own. The 6th-gen manned quarterback isn't a satellite dish, it's a flying low-observable supercomputer that runs the swarm locally inside the contested bubble. Buying 10 drones without a command node gives you 10 expensive targets that get jammed and shot down on Day 1. Further, the F-35 was built as a 3,500+ unit mass-market workhorse to replace every single-engine 4th-gen jet on Earth.GCAP is a heavy, twin-engine 6th-gen quarterback built for a specialized market. The initial core run across the UK, Italy, and Japan is estimated at roughly 300 to 350 airframes through 2050 to replace Typhoons and F-2s. Over a 50-year lifecycle, with export buyers and late-block buys, it caps out around 600-800 jets.Honestly you're doing exactly what I called out here >>65510200, treating the program like a basic 1980s/90s era defense program.
>>65510389That’s $160 million against an r&d budget that currently rounds to about $70 billion last I saw reported to Congress. I would call that handed out like candy yes. Most countries, including most prospective export customers for GCAP, do not seriously procure around end of days scenarios where they are fighting an enemy that has established dominance over the entire electromagnetic spectrum over their own country. Even then, if they are fighting a country able to do so there is no guarantee a sixth generation fighter burns through. CCAs can still be controlled from AWACS, ground stations, and seemingly even tablets in existing fighters. 6th generations aren’t the only command nodes on the market, and they’ve not demonstrated they’ll be the most effective. What do you think makes this program so special that local politicians won’t want a goody bag to bring back to their donors and constituents? Desire for domestic production hasn’t gone anywhere, it’s what’s motivated every multinational 6th generation program to date.
>>65510582Wow you seemingly have no idea what 6th gen ACTUALLY is.Color me surprised.Controlling stealth drones from an AWACS or ground station works in permissive airspace against non-peer adversaries. In a contested environment against near-peer EW, non-stealthy AWACS are forced hundreds of miles back by long-range anti-air missiles, and long-distance satellite links get jammed. A 6th-gen manned quarterback isn't a relay station; it's a stealthy, flying edge-computing node operating inside the contested bubble, using directional LPI/LPD links to direct the swarm locally where remote links fail.And again, politicians want high-value domestic jobs. In a 6th-gen program, securing multi-decade contracts for mission software, synthetic training pipelines (CAE), and satellite datalinks (MDA) delivers high-margin tech jobs to domestic constituencies without requiring a small buyer to waste billions building an inefficient local assembly line for 12-18 jets.
>>65510389>A $20M drone lacks the internal volume, power generation, and cooling to run a high-throughput battle cloud against near-peer EW on its own. The 6th-gen manned quarterback isn't a satellite dish, it's a flying low-observable supercomputer that runs the swarm locally inside the contested bubble. Buying 10 drones without a command node gives you 10 expensive targets that get jammed and shot down on Day 1.You have no idea how cheap (power, size, weight vise) compute is.
>>65510649I have a very good idea what it is. However nobody is yet to demonstrate they’ll actually manage to be a more capable command node than existing AWACS, or ground stations operating space based AMTI, which a USAF general claimed today will be operating in 2028. Most countries on Earth do not have electronic warfare super powers bordering them, or particularly capable expeditionary forces to take the fight far away. The countries that are in that situation are running domestic programs, my point is and has been about the broader export market. Every country making this kind of purchase will want domestic jobs. If you give that to Canada you secure one country that is quick to sign up to programs and slow to actually buy what they produce. What do you give everyone else? Germany has a lot of domestic industry they want kept alive. The Arabs are very interested in modernizing their economies these days. If GCAP wants broad exports the original partners will have to make compromises on workshare, because the people who could afford it either have or want their own aerospace companies.
>>65510667Do you think the F-47 and GCAP fighters are BOTH targeting 500kW+ of power and the ability to cool multiple hundreds of kW continuously because they thought it would be really neat? Like what the fuck do you think the point of the XA102/103 engines are? Slightly better range and fuel efficiency? Fucking hell, if you retards actually think you can get a penetrating autonomous drone that can survive in a near-peer contested EW enviornemnt opearting alone (or even with other CCAs) you're just retarded and have no idea what you're talking about. >>65510684You are out of your depth and it's obvious, you're treating this program like it's any other '90s era defense program and you have zero understanding of the complete paradigm shift in aerospace development GCAP is.
>>65510684>>65510686In case you want to know why I called you a retard, you're confusing space-based radar tracking with tactical battle management. Space Force explicitly stated that the 2028 space-based AMTI capability is an initial sensing layer to feed track data into tactical networks; not a replacement for airborne command nodes. Satellites 500 km in orbit cannot manage real-time, low-latency tactical engagements or control dynamic drone swarms in a heavily jammed EW environment. Physics, latency, and data throughput still apply. The only way you get true control of CCAs in a contested EW environment is with a local quarterback node, like F-47, or GCAP.
>>65510686You are spewing a lot of bullshit about how your favorite program is super special and can’t explain why when pressed. Every defense program is at least in part a jobs program.
>>65510694I've explained quite clearly, you HAVE to have a local compute node that can ACTUALLY handle the bandwidth and compute needs for that threat environment.That's an expensive 6th gen manned fighter, not a drone, and not a big ass AWACS sitting 500km back so it doesn't get sniped by a PL-17.
>>65510686You do not need hundreds of kW to make instant independent decisions on the correct actions for an aircraft.Whatever it is that those 500kW+ are intended to power is not the decision making.
>>65510691GCAP will not be in service anywhere until 2035 if everything goes perfectly smoothly. It will not be exported anywhere outside the program partners until ~2040. Yes, space based AMTI is only the initial capability two years from now. But at that point GCAP will be a flying demonstrator. In nine years if space based AMTI works it should be a mature capability, as it would be operational seven years based on the given timeline. GCAP would be in IOC, F-47 would have a few operational squadrons assuming no delays for either.
>>65510649No one actually knows what 6th gen is because the only non American sixth gen won't enter service for another decade.
>>65510698https://aviationweek.com/defense/aircraft-propulsion/darpa-prepares-tackle-next-cca-autonomy-challengeThey are running AI models on F-16s. CCAs are getting autonomy packages on Williams FJ44s. This is happening today, and they have another nine years before GCAP is planned for IOC. Compare AI and autonomy systems today to 2017. At the rate things are advancing it is very questionable there will be any need for a main node. The main node doesn’t even exist yet, but the drones are entering operational service anyway.
Leave China to me
>>65498357People also probably assume it because the Super Hornet has a drastically lower RCS than the original bug while both being bigger and having no obvious stealth optimisations compared to the original design.
>>65511383>having no obvious stealth optimisations compared to the original design.
>>65511421I mean to the layman you don't look at it and go 'oh that's a stealth hornet'. People even have trouble telling the two apart unless they're told what to look for. So I could see someone having that in their head and assuming the F-15EX is also significantly stealthier than the base design. It's not a perfect comparison, obviously.
>>65510843These actually would've been extremely dangerous to tanks when they were first built. Slavshit wouldn't have been able to deal with them in dug-in positions until they got laser rangefinders and digital fire control.
>65510710>65510711>65510729You are confusing tactical flight autonomy with operational battle management.Running AI flight controls on an F-16 (like the VENOM/ACE program) or flying an FJ44-powered testbed proves an AI can pilot a single airframe or execute basic flight maneuvers. Nobody is disputing that. But a $20M drone running tactical flight AI doesn't magically give it the thermal capacity, aperture size, or processing power to fuse theater-wide sensor tracks, run cognitive EW, and orchestrate a multi-domain strike package under heavy jamming.That’s why 6th-gen exists. It isn't a 'mysterious unproven concept', it is explicitly defined by 500+ kW electrical off-take, 3rd-stream thermal sinks, all-aspect broadband stealth, and flying as an edge-computing command hub.And no, space-based AMTI in 2028/2035 doesn't make airborne command nodes obsolete. Satellites pass broad track data; they don't run low-latency, microsecond-level tactical weapon engagements or direct forward drone swarms when satellite downlinks are jammed. Drones enter operational service first precisely because they are the forward sensors and weapons trucks that need a stealthy, survivable 6th-gen quarterback to command them locally.You're basically proving my point but are too stupid to realize it.
>>65512460Yeah bro. The Air Force is totally buying 500 drones in the next six years that won’t work without magic engines that don’t exist for a plane that isn’t flying yet. Keep having your melty it’s pretty funny.
>>65512479So because the F-47 wont be flying quite yet and because the F-47's engines are delayed by ~5 years, you think the entire concept is bunk and that drones alone are enough, despite the fact the US is spending 10x as much on the F-47 as they are on the drones.....?lollmao even, like I said in a few replies now, you're clearly out of your depth.
>>65512488You are talking out your ass. The CCAs are designed to work with current platforms. They are being tested with current platforms. By all accounts they work great with current platforms, and the proof is in the orders. So yes, I’m not defining sixth generation performance around a program that>does not have a flying demonstrator>does not have a flying cca >from countries who did not develop fifth generation fightersBecause GCAP is Mr.Irrelevant. It’s a fat F-35 that might manage to stand up a squadron the better part of a decade after the American and Chinese offerings. The drones are here now, you don’t need a megawatt of installed power to work with them. That’s there to power the recent massive advances in radar technology, as future proofing because the F-35 got burned by unanticipated power and cooling shortages, and because it has been a long term goal to fit lasers to these platforms since they started concept work on them in the 2010s provided they can ever get the damn things working.
>>65512579You just pointed out that the F-35 got burned by severe power and cooling shortages under Block 4 upgrades. That is the exact point. Modern GaN AESAs, cognitive electronic warfare, and high-throughput battle management consume massive electrical power and generate insane heat.6th-gen adaptive-cycle engines (500kW+ offtake) exist precisely so the quarterback jet can run high-powered EW, heavy radar aperture tracks, and local edge-computing swarms without overheating the airframe or cooking its own stealth coatings. You're accidentally proving my point while trying to deny basic aerospace thermodynamics.
>>65512632You have spent the last day arguing you can’t operate CCA drones without engines that won’t fly for half a decade, and that ground stations, AWACS, and existing platforms aren’t possibly up to the task. Meanwhile CCAs are in operational testing from ground stations at Creech, testing control from F-35s is scheduled to begin this year, and the Australians have controlled their MQ-28 from an E-7. These tests have been successful enough that the USAF now intends to operate 200+ CCAs by the end of the decade.
>>65512652You're constantly confusing line-of-sight flight integration with high-throughput tactical command inside a contested A2/AD bubble.The recent EOU tests at Creech (with Anduril's YFQ-44A Fury and General Atomics' YFQ-42A Vengeance) were formation, logistics, pattern-work, and basic route tests. The Air Force explicitly stated the F-35 hasn't even executed full tactical operational control over a CCA yet, they are literally using tablet-based interfaces to test basic human-machine interfaces. Flying in shared airspace doesn't mean the F-35 has the processing or thermal capacity to manage a 12-drone swarm against near-peer jamming. Boeing and the RAAF demonstrated controlling an MQ-28 from an E-7 in a permissive environment. Nobody disputes that an AWACS can relay tracks to a drone 150 miles behind the front line. But an E-7 is a giant non-stealthy target. If you push an E-7 close enough to direct forward CCAs against a near-peer Integrated Air Defense System (IADS), long-range SAMs (like the PL-17) will blow it out of the sky on Day 1. The F-35 and E-7 are interim bridge nodes. The Air Force is fielding 500 CCAs by 2032 alongside F-35s today to build affordable combat mass. But because the F-35 is already hitting severe power/cooling limits under Block 4 upgrades, the military is spending tens of billions on 6th-gen (F-47 / GCAP) to deploy a low-observable, 500kW+ edge-computing hub that can operate inside the threat ring where the E-7 can't survive. You keep pointing at basic formation tests in permissive airspace and claiming it proves we don't need stealthy 6th-gen command nodes. You're literally arguing against the USAF's own acquisition strategy.
>>65512674Because they have been very explicit that these drones will operate with and be controlled by F-35 and F-22. Yes, the program that began in 2024 and just in the last few months awarded production contracts is in the earliest stages of testing, very good. At this rate they will be fully operational, controlled by F-35, before F-47 stands up a squadron or GCAP manages a production representative test aircraft. There will not be enough drones or enough sixth generation fighters to even think about slaving a dozen drones to one airframe until the back half of the 2030s at the absolute earliest. Inc.1 CCAs will be operational under the control of F-35 and F-22 sometime in the next few years, while F-47 won’t even be through testing at Edwards. They are not buying these drones to sit around collecting dust until the plane of the future is here, it has been very explicit they are meant to pair with what we have today. This is a capability we will have within the next five years, not the next fifteen
>>65501181Imagine being this dimwitted
>>65512674Lockheed has demonstrated the F-35 controlling 8 CCA. Controlling CCA was a much lower workload for the pilot than they expected.
>>65512674You don't fucking need +500kW for "edge-computing".A gaming PC is enough to do any decisions a drone might ever even hope to do.
the japs need to get rid of their nuke aversion and embrace the bomb. sitting right next to russia, north korea and china and not having mad is madness.
>>65512957I'm sure you have a genius plan to get the German jet industry the work they need to stay relevant.
>>65514482the german taxpayer will just have to step up and give more. there should also be an effort to get the smaller euro countries in to research and development. right now the small shits are doing absolutely nothing in funding weapons development. that free loading has to stop.
>>65514509Money isn't the bottleneck. Japan, Korea and China have been investing for decades and they're still not entirely there yet. Russians never fully mastered it. It's material science that takes endless testing and iterating to get it right and at some point you have to get out of the lab and get tons of real flight hours just to validate a design. No amount of money will rush that process faster than a decade. And that's just to have a jet engine at all, let alone a cutting edge one.If Germany wanted this they should've started 20 years ago. This is the price of the "peace dividend".
>>65514654>Money isn't the bottleneck. Japan, Korea and China have been investing for decades and they're still not entirely there yetWut?Korea sure, but Japan and China have both built wholly domestic manned fighters. They might not match the US's, but they still hold entirely domestic capability to build them.
>>65514654As the other anon said, China and Japan don't belong on that list as they both can manufacture jet engines by themselves. India and Turkey make far more sense though as they're both (along with south korea) working on domestic jet engine capability right now and have been at it for years with little to no success.
>>65514993>>65514943Japan has not produced a fully domestic fighter.
>>65515195>Japan has not produced a fully domestic fighter.Aren't you forgetting about the greatest fighter in all of history bucko?
>>65515195They have every piece of technology to do so and simply haven't because it didn't make sense to scale the X-2 ShinShin up directly when 6th gen was on the horizon.And again, the discussion was about the jet engine.> And that's just to have a jet engine at all, let alone a cutting edge one.Not the whole fighter.But even so, both japan and china clearly have the requisite technology to do it domestically if they need to.
>>65514943>>65514993Japan isn't mass producing engines which means they haven't taken the final steps yet and China still has teething issues with their jet engines. Being close and being there isn't the same thing, highlighting just how time consuming this development process is, and if you don't do it right you end up like Russia where you have jet engines but you're replacing them at 3 to 4 times the rate of proper ones.Technically speaking many countries could make a jet engine in a few years. The hard part is making one that doesn't melt itself. Germany has no special tech in this regard. They'd be starting from scratch on the hot section.
>>65515207Apparently the slitty eyed ones ;) weren't considered capable of designing an aircraft so the US tried to work out what they had copied.Tis true.
>>65515310What the fuck are you talking about?IHI F3 ~550 enginesIHI F7 ~200-240 enginesHow the fuck is that NOT "mass production"?Not every nation is the united states that needs to produce thousands of engines.
>>65514993I forgot about Turkey. I don't think it'll be amazing but I think they'll eventually manage something basic but respectable. It really is interesting comparing Turkey to India because India started in the 80's while Turkey began in earnest after they got left out of the F35 program around 2010 but Turkey is already producing much better results. India seems incapable of effectively generating multi-generational institutional knowledge. Somehow they unlearn vital knowledge despite their best efforts.
>>65515342I wasn't counting the IHI F7 but fair enough on the F3. That was my error. I guess that means Japan is fully on the leading edge of jet technology with their 6th gen concept underway.
>>65515347Wasn't Turkey having Soviet AA and US aircraft considered a bit sketchy at the time.
>>65515355I mean, XF9-1 shows they've got at least the baseline capability, just needs integration into an airframe, with GCAP they're also getting access to RR ALM combustor tiles and the E2SG program for higher electrical power output.It's by far the closest thing to 6th gen engine any nation besides the US has demonstrated.
>>65515362Yeah, they were and I think still are butting heads over the S-300 and 400. Turkey likes having it both ways.
>>65476975>still doesn't understand how tariffs work
>>65512652NTA, but there's huge a difference between the purported capabilities. Compare a vulnerable F-16 or an F-35 handling a couple dedicated loyal wingmen each while talking to AWACS and satellites, vs a squadron of F-47s or equivalent that can dynamically hand off control to each other and keep a much larger swarm going while theoretically replacing the AWACS and Wild Weasels. Even when you inevitably lose a few birds. Now, whether that capability is actually gonna come out of the far end of this program? That's the better question.
>>65515342Neither of those are fighter engines.
>>65516250F7 is basically a high bypass version of XF5 (an afterburning turbofan for X-2) though, sharing the core, with a TIT lowered from 1600C to 1550C to reduce emissions.
>>65516356LBP Engines>WS-10 TIT ~1,500*C>WS-15 TIT ~1,580*C>PW-229 TIT 1,350*C>GE-129 TIT 1,510*CHBP Engines>D-30KP TIT 1,150*C>CFM56 TIT 1,360*CDamn I didn't realize that the F7 was able to run that hot
>>65516183t’s a bit of an open question as to whether the existing CCAs will ever end up doing much operating alongside 6th generation platforms. As it stands Inc.1 CCAs are looking to be a great way to add cheap capacity and supplement the F-35s that would make up the majority of the frontline force in the Pacific. What is not clear is that it would be in any way a good idea to tie down the most capable and expensive assets you have babysitting your cheapest and least capable ones, instead of say conducting penetrating strikes into China. F-47 is looking to be a silver bullet that will make up a proportionally small part of the force structure that is very likely to be tasked to their limit. It is likely to be the only suitable escort for B-21 against China, as any other platform is likely to somewhat compromise the stealth of the strike package. They are also likely to be conducting independent attacks against high value Chinese targets of opportunity. It doesn’t really look like current CCAs will be very capable in those mission sets, but would still be a great supplement to F-15EX and F-35. If something more capable comes out of Inc.2 that calculation may change, but if existing platforms can’t get at least most of the possible performance out of these drones they really would not be a very good investment
>>65516434XF9 ran at 1800C and the XFP30 for GCAP has reportedly done component testing for the combustor at 2000C.
>>65472436Keep believing that, chang.
>>65474754
>>65476975The country you're slapping tariffs on doesn't have to pay anything, our own tax payers do. The point of a tariff is to convince your population to buy more domestic products instead of imports. Not that you niggers in white skin would know.
>>65517326Tariffs are bad, which is why I was in favor of everyone tariffing Americam goods but not the other way around.Wait what?
