For some reason sci-fi shows never answer this question.
>>65491422out of visual range, and since its star trek, with proton torpedoes and shit.
like this
Entertainments primary goal is to entertain, keep that in mind.
>>65491423Does one side ever feel the need to flip so they can battle like this or are they fine with just remaining upside-down to one another?
>>65491422Star Trek has them dogfight within visual range of one another
>>65491432up to the writers depending on teh episode/movie
>>65491423Which is unironically what they do in TOS.
>>65491429It's so fucking kino
>>65491429
>>65491429I've seen C-beams glittering in the dark...
>>65491422All sci Fi combat inevitably slides back into analogs for forms familiar to WW2 and there's nothing you can do about it.
>>65491432Star Trek yearns for the thrill of fighter combat but can't because of self-imposed rules, so it has to make do with flinging frigates around as if they were fighter craft.
>>65491629ST does have gunboats, and IIRC the old fleet battles game does have carriers and fighters.But I'll be honest, that game needs a Tabletop Simulator adaption to not take hours (unless you're a grognard pro)
>>65491604>nobody ever tries to use the 3dimensionality of space to encircle the enemy
>>65491686There are a some SciFi books where the author takes this into consideration.It just doesn't translate very well to a screen with spaceships whooshing around and shooting lasers at each other.
>>65491629Which is ironic cause Balance of Terror is considered the highest rated of Trek space combat and that is a mix of WW2 naval gunnery/submarine warfare.
>>65491686>>65491690It's also worth remembering that, practically speaking, space is only really three dimensional when you get to interstellar scales. Within the solar system, basically everything orbits in a flat plane. Trying to do some sort of enveloping tactic where your ships simultaneously approach from multiple unexpected angles would mean having to burn huge amounts of fuel to fly out into the void well outside of the ecliptic plane, then burn more fuel to fly back again.
>>65491800we dont realy know how well future engine will perform and what type theyll be,say we manage deuterium fussion than straping huge rockets to a few of your ship to make them come from the opposite way might become viable, likewise if you know the route the enemy will take and how good their sensors are you might evade them by hiding your boost phase behind jupiter and then just do course correction, while it would look like trying to match speeds with the enemy orr lower your own to change your position relative to his, youd still get the fact he might have more shielding from a different direction and so you might try to go at him from lower or upper
>>65491422The Star Trek movies answer this: it's usually a Photon Torpedo exchange as both sides try to out-math each other so their ship isn't there when their enemy's projectile impacts.
>>65491800NTA, but energy-wise you could swing above or below the ecliptic without too muhc of a difference, assuming you have some sort of drive that allows for constant burns instead of our current chemical One Big Burn
>>65491686>What is crossfire?
>>65491429These tactics are the Federation's main weakness as its vessels aren't designed to face the space equivalent of a DDoS attack.
>>65491686>try to split your fleet to surround the enemy>get defeaeted in detailnothin personnel rebel scum
>>65491629Fighters don't really make sense in Trek for a few reasons.>the massive yield of weapons>computer gunneryStar Wars is a less computerized universe overall than Trek, so fighters have more purpose.
>>65491686watch my conquest is a sea of stars
>>65491984if you insist>https://archive.org/details/LOGH-LD-CA/000.+My+Conquest+Is+the+Sea+of+Stars.avi
>>65491896Stop trying to pretend there's any logic to Trek.
>>65491896This. Its like expecting 100 dingies to be able to take on a battleship.wait a minute I think ive seen this in ukraine....
>>65491681Star trek with the star wars armada ruleset
>>65491686In the scene >>65491432's clip is from the Klingons attack the Dominion fleet at an angle from above their relative position.
>>65491888>get defeated in detail>gets T crossed>and broadsided into oblivion There's a reason why the Navy exists.
>>65491686What would that accomplish? Space battle is ruled by Lanchester's lawsMASS MASS MASS
>>65492312Except in Trek that battleship has the firepower, rate of fire, accuracy, and protection to reasonably expect to survive, if not wipe out, those 100 dingies. There are "starfighters" in Trek but they're more akin to fast attack craft. Take a shuttle, slap the biggest reactor, shield generator, and phaser array that can fit under the hood, strap a half dozen photon torpedoes to it, and send them out in a pack of 8.
>>65491432>Battleship just randomly explodesDS9 battles were fun but they should have been done better. I'm fine with how most of the ships aren't doing anything due to the 90s laser shortage but it would've been cool seeing more thought put into it.
>>65492452>Jutland>RN does exactly that>twice>HSF just goes homecheckmate, Nelsonist
I like The Lost Fleet's naval engagements where two fleets burn toward each other for hours, pre-program weapon targeting parameters, and the engagement lasts a millisecond or less before they have to either turn and burn towards each other again or disengage
>>65491888Why LARP as the least effective sci-fi military of all time? They got their shit wrecked, in a stand-up fight, by the Rebels, who they had outnumbered and in an ambush, at Endor. Hoth, their big on-screen victory, was still a strategic defeat as all the important rebels escaped from the planet, and they lost a few of their ultra-heavy walkers assaulting a lightly defended trench line where the only CAS the defenders had were essentially cesnas with guns bolted to them. Seriously I don't get the Empfags, they're not even a real monarchy, they're a dictatorship being led by a bureaucrat/space wizard.
>>65491432Goddamn, that is fucking gay.
>>65492464This is where the primary difference between Trek and Wars shows itself.Wars is more fantasy than scifi; they keep the quantum mumbo-jumbo dialog to a minimum. Stylistically, it's also more WW2, so everything feels a bit more low-tech and analog. One-man fighters work better in that setting because we don't really have a sense of power-scaling.Trek is more hard sci-fi with occasional fantasy elements. We get a sense of speed, strength, power levels, etc. through the dialog. We understand that something the size of an X-Wing wouldn't survive an engagement. You need to be bigger to fit all of the technical components. We do get "fighters" in DS9, but they're large shuttles, and are more useful for quick engagements or intercepting smaller vessels.In either case, it makes sense within the context of the established universe. Trek has more stringent rules to play by, whereas Wars can be a bit freer but less realistic.
>>65492915>Trek is more hard sci-fi with occasional fantasy elementsYou lying fuck, Trek has way more quite literal space gods who can do literally anything just by waving their hand.Anyone who brings up "power-scaling" is generally a worthless waste of flesh
a drone carrying a missile that has a nuclear pumped laser would kill most thing in scifi desu
>>65492934Trek "space gods" make very few appearances compared to the overall runtime of all the series.
>>65492942They fact they are so numerous and varied while being a repeated feature of the universe really shoots the idea of Trek being anything close to "hard sci-fi" in the head, not to mention treknology in itself being soft as shit with it being bullshit technobabble invented on a scene-by-scene basis at the hands of hack writers then said details get forgotten about just as quickly.
>>65492772>Why LARP as the least effective sci-fi military of all time?idk, but girls like to cosplay I guess
>>65492941AV:T should get a videogame made, but I guess it's to niche
Severed Dreams (B5) has one of the best space battles.
>>65491422>>65491432Ender's game (the book) covered this in a fairly logical fashion. However, it should that this is more of a philosophy approach rather than a solid bit of tactical advice. In the simplest terms, it reads as follows: The direction of the enemy is down.That reorientation allows for OP's question to be a moot point. There's no need to orient oneself in accordance with anything besides where to begin aiming.
>>65492772>>65493020>Why LARP as the least effective sci-fi military of all time?Same reason (non-retards) larp as nazis: Rad uniforms.
>>65493020I'd submit to her interrogation, if you... Catch my meaning
>>65492952Relax, he's not saying Star Wars is worse than Star Trek, he's just saying that fighters work better in one setting than the other. Your melty is completely unwanted.
>>65493020What's that rank insignia?
>>65493119At least half the Nazi dressup larpers I've ever interacted with are a mix of furries, troons, and homosexuals.
>>65491629DEEP KEK NOINCE wanted to do Star Wars-esque spesh battles. It also attracted Star Wars fans and their purple haired girlfriends.
This is how they fight
Star Trek was enormously boring and idk how people watched that shit.
>>65491629Fighters don't make any sense in Star Wars either. Like how Star Destroyers are fast enough to chase Falcon around but every time there is battle they sit in place or move super slowly for whatever reason. Space battles are completely retarded in 99% of everything. There are very few franchises that do it ok.
>>65493233Like attracts like.
>>65491686if you're talking about realism, the 3-dimensionality of space is already irrelevant
>>65491606Near the Tannhausser Gates anon?
>>65491423>out of visual range>in fucking space How far is the horizon in space again?
>>65491888We sex her, r.riight?
>>65492772>Why LARP as the least effective sci-fi military of all time?To be beaten and get a torpedo in the exhaust port, right below the main port. God what a fag.
>>6549367713.5B LYs and counting..
>>65491686>for the same reason that you could use the third dimension to put forces behind your enemy they are not encircled>tfw you realise that encirclement doesn't do anything in three dimensions, and suddenly you need enspherement?
>>65493690But anon, that's the causality horizon, not just the visual one. Doing anything to something on the other side of it would necessarily imply paradoxes.
>>65491800>basically everything orbits in a flat planelol, nohttps://youtu.be/RuTfNWU4XWo
>>65492915>Stylistically, it's also more WW2, so everything feels a bit more low-tech and analogFun fact watch this and you will very quickly learm what the inspiration for the star wars trench run washttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1DCxpMz8aUStill holds up too
>>65493896>Doing anything to something on the other side of it would necessarily imply paradoxes.Perhaps, but you'll neer know that.
>>65493911God, modern movies lack so much soul
>>65491888>femaleno girls, aliens, or browns allowed in the Empire. Only middle aged white men with British accents.
>>65492772They look cool and have big ships with big guns. They win when I play them in Battlefront 2 and Empire At War, so that's all that matters to me.The rebels use snub fighters and ships that look like literal pieces of shit.
>>65493231I think the 4 blue 4 red is for senior lieutenants and junior captains. IIrc the 2 code cylinders (the metal "pens" in her breast pocket) means she's a captain. The black uniform means different things depending on the source you read. Probably a shipboard security officer, considering the blaster.
>>65492915Trek is just as much a fantasy, but its a fantasy of a future science. So nothing in it actually makes sense under scrutiny, but it at least appears to if you don't look too closely. Its like things you come up with in a dream that make sense in the dream, but make no real sense when you wake up. Wars is a fantasy story retelling ancient myths with sci fi props. Its very up front about everything being nonsensical and impossible in the real world.
>>65494076Thanks chatgpt, but her insignia is 6+6 and she has three code cylinders. She's larping as a fleet admiral.
>>65493075>DownThat would work for planets, but why are fleets not forward?
MORE CANNONS, MORE LASERS, MORE MISSILESS, MOOOORRRREEEEEE
>>65493436And after Asakai the tactics evolved and you would always get two distinct groups
>>65494336In space direction realy doesn't matter, it just depends on how you choose to orient yourself.So it comes down to how teh ships look, and thus the question becomes how handwave-ish physics is treated.The scale here is essentially from The Expanse to LMAO spaceship go whooosh like in ST or SW.
>>65493539Some capitals like the Imperial-class can reach high speeds in a straight line, but their maneuverability and accelleration are still pants. Also running at full speed takes them a shitload of power that can't go to shields or weapons, so it's not done when in a fight against another capital.
>>65493231>>65494076>>65494218Neither of you want to go down that rabbit hole.
>>65491686>>65493874>enspherementAsimov mentions that in "Second Foundation">>65493677>Star Trek>How far is the horizon in space again?a misnomer, just like light-years; the correct question is what DURATION is the horizon in space, and the answer is that it is as long as it takes for the Klingon Bird Of Prey to activate cloaking>>65493075>The direction of the enemy is downSounds so "Woah" but in hindsight that itself was an oversimplification of orbital mechanics>>65493436>This is how they fight>OH MY GOD, IF WE EVER, EVER LEAVE SYSTEM AGAIN WITH TWO FUCKING DICTORS I'M FUCKING KILLING ALL OF YOU>FUCKING DO YOUR JOB I'M FUCKING SICK AND TIRED OF THIS SHIT
>>65494406So she is the Director of the Breeding Bureau. Makes sense.
>>65491432Man, sucks to be a BoP sometimes.
>>65493539Fighters make sense in Star Wars because shield coverage isn't absolute and fighter craft can carry armaments capable of heavily damaging or disabling capital ships.
>>65493604I see you are limiting yourself to small scale battle at essentially melee range
>>65494406Aren't there sources that conflict with this?
>>65494218Chatgpt would have better eyesight than me, I'm grok tier at best, and modern google images tier without my glasses
>>65493539Star destroyers are like ships, so they move fast in a straight line, but can't maneuver. Fighters are like aircraft, so they move fast in a straight line and can maneuver very well. Most other proper ships can do neither.Trek ships are submarines in space, so they fight one on one duels with torpedoes, and occasionally throw in a phaser shot like the deck gun on a surfaced sub.Realistic space combat is all BVR with drones spamming missiles and trying to overheat each other with lasers. It doesn't make for good TV, so its stuck to the realm of novels.
>>65491422Mostly very, very fast.
>>65493539Because shit like Alastair Reynolds battles were you're firing statistical ensembles of munitions at relativistic speed and drones at the enemy over vast distances and basically involved in a duel of auto-factory capacity and computational power is really lame on screen.
>>65495783To expand, that sort of thing works when it's a small part of the action. Peter Watts' tiny amount of combat in his books is like this too. That's fine for hard scfi.But if you want to get viewers dicks hard you need something like Sun Eater or Red Rising where 9 foot tall super humans are battling with cool scifi swords, battle mechs, or doing WWII dogfights in their space fighters, repleat with main characters dueling for whatever reason (who doesn't want to see the hero beat the 9 foot tall alien in a 1 v 1 sword fight?)
>>65493020I love those new US Space Force uniforms.
>>65495722several, but it's fucking star wars and you have to assume whatever dialog or story writing you get is the word of god since you'll be lucky if the art design is consistent even in a single run of comics. iirc the ISB's ranks entirely contradict every one of the classical ones people thought they had figured out.
>>65491422stargate solved this pretty easly and much within sci instead of fi whoever has the bigger power output will always win for obvious reasons of being able to maintain its shields and fire random shit at you hence why you saw the lore of the ancients having a pretty op ships like atlantis but being unable to do anything because they allowed a clearly inferior race (which was rapidly catching up )to built huge numbers because they were confident on their superiority
>>65497085>implying scientific rigor >shields
>>65497092scientific rigor says that space battles will never happen
>>65497092the fact that you took this and not the fact that they had a power source that was able to do this is beyond me
>>65497085Stargate never gave much shit for consistency, even less past season 6.You can't have a system that work unless you can make a video game out of it.Take Starsector, you basically have a buffer for taking hit in the shield that's also the same buffer for how much you can shoot.Take too many hits? Short-circuit, you drift helplessly without shield for a while.Then you have weapon specialized against the shield, but not against armor.If TV shows learned from that you could have scene like:"The alien discontinuous-hot-gas-projectiles breached our shield!""Damage report""Not much actually, their missiles are the anti-armor and we can take them""Disable our shield, give full power to engine, move our ship to shield contact""Bold, sir, what do you have in mind?""No shield can resist the full inertia of a warship, I think they haven't fought anyone with old-school armor in centuries"
>>65495767The Culture a shit
>>65492772Because the Imperial-class is one of the coolest-looking space warships ever devised, and if you like the overall triangular shape but have some niggling issue with the Imperial, they offer a nearly inexhaustible supply of alternative triangular ships to tickle your fancy.
>>65497092You can have shield, just either for specify stuff like charged particle using magnets, or using particulate to disrupt incoming lasers, ....
