Way cheaper to train with and stockpile ammo for, uses same ammo and mags as my pistol, quiet and suppresses well, as easy to maintain as a Glock, fits in a backpack. 9mm PCC is the only long gun I could ever have any use for. AR15 would just be left at home or in a car when SHTF and I don't give a fuck about shooting anything over 100 yards because I don't live in Utah. Convince why I need anything more.
>>65508166i wrote a response but this is such an ignorant and foolish OP that it is not worthy of an explanation. Truly lazy.
>>65508166Well, you may not want to ever shoot anything past 100 yards, but you don't get to choose engagement distance; the person trying to harm you does. I have heard multiple anecdotes from people who were just minding their own business, and they came under fire from a distant target; in two of those stories they were lucky enough to run away, in the third the guy who had a hunting rifle had to fire back, and the assailant ran away. Furthermore, you are convinced that you don't need more range/better external ballistics, but something else to consider is the fact that rifles and shotguns do more damage/have better terminal ballistics; even at 25-100 yards, the damage a 5.56 will do far surpass the damage of the 9mm. Just some things to consider.
>>65508234Average maximum visibility where I live is 80 yards. Bad guys don't get to choose to make the forest magically disappear. My dad was a great deer hunter and used a .270 and a .308 and never shot a deer over 50 yards in his whole life because it's physically impossible to engage a target further than that.
>>655082349mm+ P from a carbine hits at 100 yards like standard 9 from a pistol at the muzzle and has proven to even be effective for deer hunting with good shot placement and bullet selection. I don't need more terminal performance than that. 556 is better but not worth the logistical burden of maintaining a second ammo supply.
>>65508254Why not get a 5.7x28mm? Seems like you can get a good carbine and pistols with that caliber.
M&P Pistol and FPC. I use the 9mm Other calibers are available if you are religious or live in a place with a large animal problem. 10mm caliber has become widely regarded as the ideal round for personal protection in the backcountry . The 10mm uses the 15 round common magazine. Accepts M&P pistol double-stacked magazines9 mm pistol and FPC. Same ammo, can use any 17+ round magazine in common. Uses the 23 round magazine natively and the 9mm M&P pistol can use the larger magazine. FPC can bang on stuff 150m away if you need too. It's the modern cowboy combo. FPC can be stuffed into a low profile bag when folded. Easy to unfold under stress and just use, no fiddling with inserting a barrel.
>>65508248They can choose to engage you at 60 to 80 yards and hide behind cover/concealment that stops 9mm but not something more powerful.>>65508254>9mm+ P from a carbine hits at 100 yards like standard 9 from a pistol at the muzzle and has proven to even be effective for deer hunting with good shot placement and bullet selection. I don't need more terminal performance than that.What if the meth cook whose operation you accidentally stumbled in on is wearing level 2 body armor?
>>65508274Ammo is expensive and scarce and it's not available in a Glock. Otherwise an interesting cartridge just because of it's light weight.
>>65508277I like 10mm but it can't do anything the 9mm can't do. It just does it better. That's not worth locking yourself into a niche caliber, and not worth the weight increase either. 22 Magnum vs 9mm is a more interesting comparison than 9mm vs larger calibers.
>>65508274OP asked us why to bother with anything that isn't a PCC. Why would you recommend a PCC that takes more expensive ammo? Keep in mind, its 27gr ammo is practically for varmints, its 35gr AP ammo is not easily accessible to civilians, and its 40gr ammo is comparable to 9mm in terminal ballistics (the cartridge he already has).
>>65508281I would never carry something that can bust through thick cover, same reason why I would never be carrying a chainsaw, a gas stove, or any other kind of heavy specialized equipment.If someone appears wearing armor out of nowhere and situational awareness has completely failed me then he's close enough to target unarmored parts of his body. You could just as easily have to do that with 556 given all the level 4 stuff out there these days. But ultimately I'm not worried about armor because I would be going away from combat, not into combat.
>>65508302It's not comparable to 9mm. Lower energy, smaller bullet, and still not enough velocity for secondary wounding effects. It's literally a 22 magnum hunting rifle. That's not to say it's inadequate though.
>>65508292No .22 wmr fpc yet sadly, even though theres the m&p 2.0 in .22 wmr. From 16 inch barrels too it can push some decent numbers
>>65508333It will never be reliable in an autoloader. A 22WMR setup would be revolver + bolt or lever action rifle.
>>65508310>If someone appears wearing armor out of nowhere and situational awareness has completely failed me then he's close enough to target unarmored parts of his body.Again, you won't know at what distance he chooses to engage you.>I would be going away from combat, not into combat.You won't always have that luxury. Another consideration that I didn't mention in my original reply: takedown rifles get better every year; you'd lose nothing by having one in your vehicle or bag in case you get attacked.>>65508318>It's not comparable to 9mm. Lower energy, smaller bullet, and still not enough velocity for secondary wounding effects.All the more reason that the other guy should not have bothered bringing it up. I was pointing out how it was a bad pick for someone like OP who already has a PCC in 9mm.>It's literally a 22 magnum hunting rifle.A half-truth that keeps spreading. A 5.7 out of a 5" barrel has the same terminal ballistics of a .22 magnum out of a 20" barrel, but a 5.7 out of a 10.3" barrel has the same terminal ballistics as an AR-15 with a 6-7" barrel. While I don't recommend a 5.7 pistol to anyone, the original P90 or anything with a longer barrel is an effective PCC. Since OP wants to pair his PCC with a handgun, I think 5.7 sucks (in the handguns available for it).
>>65508166It's reasonable. It's just not everything.
>>65508343If someone in armor is shooting at me from long range then I've already screwed up enough that I deserve to die, and probably will die regardless of what weapon I'm carrying.
>>65508350Anything more would be for an offensive setup of some kind.
>>65508360LOL, why even bother having a discussion if you won't even consider the idea that a dangerous situation might not happen exactly as you expected it to? Maybe you're in a building and the only exit available to you has an angry rifleman who wants to do a murder-suicide, maybe you're driving on the highway and get caught in one of those highway shootouts that have happened and your car takes enough rounds to stop working, maybe, you're being attacked by a gang of idiots rather than a sole idiot, and you'd be better served with 2-3 30-round mags as opposed to 2-3 17-round mags.Have you heard of the LA riots and the infamous rooftop Koreans? The trouble started when the gangs attacked the jewelry store next to a gun shop, and the gun shop owner tried to save his friend. At first, he thought he could solve it with his Beretta 92; it was only after his pistol was empty that he realized he was over his head and had to run back inside his shop to get a rifle. Thankfully, the gangs decided to flee in the lull before he was forced to use the rifle, but if they hadn't, he would have been stuck inside that plaza with no way to leave, forced to fight back until the people threatening him left.
>>65508391I would not be open carrying a rifle in an urban area or building.
>>65508391Glock mags come in 33 rounds btw
>>65508395>I would not be open carrying a rifle in an urban area or building.Neither would I, but you mentioned truck guns earlier, and I mentioned bag guns. You can get a rifle that fits in a bag.>Glock mags come in 33 rounds btwThe guy who was complaining about heavy rifles is now claiming to be ballin' with multiple stendos. Dancing around the topic of the discussion is pretty unscrupulous of you.
>>65508391A far more likely scenario would be:- Being arrested or shot because your weapon isn't concealable.- Giving your position and poaching away because your weapon is extremely loud.- Being physically overburdened by too much gear.- Not being able to afford ammo.I'm way more worried about that than armor. I'm not a mall ninja larper who thinks about things like that. I think things like "it's really nice not having to wear a chest rig" and "how likely am I to get away with shooting one of those ducks at the pond?"
Why own anything other than a 22? Why even own a gun at all? In all likelihood 99% of /k/ will live their entire natural lives without having fired a single shot at another human being
>>65508399Sure, and my bag gun is the Ruger PCC and I don't see the need for anything more. Armor performance would be the only tangible advantage of 556, but 9mm can actually defeat 3A with certain bullets, especially from a carbine.I carry 200ish rounds usually. 3 mags on my person, and 150 in my pack. That gives me 50 rounds to survive any defensive situations, 50 to expend in training, and 100 for survival shooting needs for several months to a year. I don't carry 33 round sticks but they exist if I ever felt the need for more capacity, which I don't.
>>65508407 >>65508407>Being arrested or shot because your weapon isn't concealable.I've already shot this retarded point down multiple times in this discussion. >>65508399 and >>65508343>Giving your position and poaching away because your weapon is extremely loud.AT the sub-100 yards you expect your attacker to accommodate you in, they'll hear the 9mm just the same.>Being physically overburdened by too much gear.LMAO, keep pretending we're recommending 60-100 pounds of gear. That definitely doesn't sound disingenuous every single time you attempt it.>Not being able to afford ammo.If you can't afford 5.56 then you can't afford 9mm either. No one is recommending you buy enough for a platoon.>>65508415>I carry 200ish rounds usually. 3 mags on my person, and 150 in my pack. That gives me 50 rounds to survive any defensive situations, 50 to expend in training, and 100 for survival shooting needs for several months to a year.You carry the training ammo everywhere you go? That is so laughably unnecessary.>I don't carry 33 round sticksIf you don't have them, then it was moot to bring them up. Congratulations for deceiving me this far. Up until now I considered you genuinely wanted a discussion rather than to troll. The last paragraph in this comment is retarded enough for me to realize you were never serious. You got me good; I doubt anyone is that much of an imbecile.
>>65508429What's the minimum amount of 9mm you would carry for it daily? And or vehicle reserve amount?
>>655084341 mag in gun1 mag in glove compartmentYou dont need more. Reloads statistically do not happen in civilian self defense shootings
>>65508434Somewhere between 1 and 3,000. My bag of holding is enchanted, so I have no weight concerns and can carry around my training ammo everywhere. Remember to use fire runes at the rear of the projectile to get that extra 300 fps out of each 9mm bullet. My gun's barrel has a wind rune to reduce the rate at which it overheats; it only costs 12 small copper coins at the mage's academy.
>>655084402 of what capacity mags?Maybe the other guy is worried about gangs of people?
>>65508429>AT the sub-100 yards you expect your attacker to accommodate you in, they'll hear the 9mm just the same.556 is extremely loud and doesn't suppress well and gives you away to people over a large area. You'll come back and find your camp trashed or wake up with people standing around you or something. A survival rifle needs to be really quiet.>LMAO, keep pretending we're recommending 60-100 pounds of gear. That definitely doesn't sound disingenuous every single time you attempt it.A second ammo supply of any kind is an insane amount of weight.>If you can't afford 5.56 then you can't afford 9mm either. No one is recommending you buy enough for a platoon.If I lose my job and I'm reduced to just scraping by again there is no point in spending twice as much on ammo for power and range I don't need. Many cartridges are better than 9mm, none are necessary. I'm not locking myself into something expensive or training with it or developing some system that revolves around an expensive consumable.>You carry the training ammo everywhere you go? That is so laughably unnecessary.I train multiple times a week. I just go out in the woods and use the mags and paper targets I'm already carrying. It's very casual.>If you don't have them, then it was moot to bring them up.You were the one that brought up needing 30 rounds. I think ten is the point of diminishing returns for self defense.
>>65508445Standard 17 round glock magsAnd if you have to defend yourself from "gangs of people" you put yourself in that situation via poor self awareness aka "you relaxed"
>average PCC is cucked by NFA and the barrel is way too long >average PCC is too expensive>average PCC that takes non glock pistol magazines is discontinued>The PCC I would like is over $3000
>>65508455Yeah 556 is loud as fuck even outdoors from a 16" barrel and earpro
>>65508455>556 is extremely loud and doesn't suppress well and gives you away to people over a large area. You'll come back and find your camp trashed or wake up with people standing around you or something. A survival rifle needs to be really quiet.Do you even own a suppressor or is it a hypothetical future purchase like the stendos that OP doesn't own but would purchase the second he needs them.>A second ammo supply of any kind is an insane amount of weight.Oh, most definitely, sire. See nobody carries a few mags. Clearly you are being asked to carry enough ammo to resupply Fort Leonard Wood.>If I lose my job and I'm reduced to just scraping by again there is no point in spending twice as much on ammo for power and range I don't need. Many cartridges are better than 9mm, none are necessary. I'm not locking myself into something expensive or training with it or developing some system that revolves around an expensive consumable.Undoubtedly! No one else in this thread understands that 9mm was code for .22 LR and 5.56 was code for 8mm Mauser.>I train multiple times a week. It's very casual.Easy there, John Wick.>You were the one that brought up needing 30 rounds. I think ten is the point of diminishing returns for self defense.With how much you've trained, you shant need anything more than a derringer, good sire. I see that now.
>>65508467You need at least 12" to get max velocity and good accuracy from 9mm. I have two of the Rugers and they can both do 2MOA with lots of better quality ammo. Almost none of the popular short barrel PCCs can do that.
>>65508474>You need at least 12" to get max velocity and good accuracy from 9mm.In your statement you are basically agreeing with the guy you replied to that the 16" PCCs are way too long.
>>65508477They're only a little bit too long. Not enough to actually matter. Take the birdcage off if you want to save an inch and a half
>>65508473>Do you even own a suppressor or is it a hypothetical future purchase like the stendos that OP doesn't own but would purchase the second he needs them.For 9mm, yes. 556 suppressed is loud enough that there isn't even consensus on whether it's hearing safe. 9mm suppressed with subsonics is quiet enough to shoot deer behind Dollar General at 2AM.>Oh, most definitely, sire. See nobody carries a few mags. Clearly you are being asked to carry enough ammo to resupply Fort Leonard Wood.I carry a survival loadout. And 90% of the time my pistol is my primary weapon because a rifle, if I have one at all, is stashed in my bag. A rifle that doesn't use my pistol ammo and mags introduces a significant burden that needs to justify itself.>Undoubtedly! No one else in this thread understands that 9mm was code for .22 LR and 5.56 was code for 8mm Mauser.9mm is the single most practical "one caliber" option. It is the second cheapest ammunition type you can buy, among the lightest, takes up half the space of 556, chambers in both rifles and pistols, and is suitable for any job at woodland distances and can even shoot moose through the skull easily. Very hard to justify anything else.>With how much you've trained, you shant need anything more than a derringer, good sire. I see that now.I happen to live within easy walking distance of a spot I can shoot for free.
>>65508477They're a little too long maybe. If I cared I'd just do the paperwork and shorten the barrel. Although that might harm accuracy.
>>65508474PCCs should be easily maneuverableYou're shooting a pistol round FFS, 8 inches is longer than most pistol barrels and it's going to be more than enough velocity for an indoor confrontationBecause if you're outdoors what the fuck are you doing with a PCC, just get a 16 inch AR-15 at this point
>>65508490Half the point of a PCC for me is to get as much power as possible from the cheapest and most widely available ammunition type. At 12+" 9mm can duplicate 357 magnum loads. I grew up carrying bolt action 22s and deer rifles with 22"-24" barrels around in the woods and they're"maneuvarable enough for me.
>>65508500>At 12+" 9mm can duplicate 357 magnum loads.Absolutely not. A 124-gr 9mm shot out of a 12" barrel could mimic a 125-gr .357 Magnum shot out of a 3" barrel, but it wouldn't mimic a .357 out of a 4", 5", 6", 8" barrel, and it certainly wouldn't come close if you shot a lever gun with the same length barrel as your PCC.
>>65508510Yes it can. The famous state trooper load and the most popular carry load for 357 magnum was a 125 grain bullet at 1450 fps from a 4"-6" barrel. The 357 is famous because of that load. 9mm from a carbine routinely matches that with +p and exceeds that with +p+.
>>65508500maneuverability only matters indoors, outdoors you dont generally have to worry about it unless you're going into a caveNow I'll admit that you have gotten me a bit interested with the Ruger PC Carbine
>>65508520I couldn't possibly care less about the maneuvarability of a long gun indoors.
>>65508517>The 357 is famous because of that load.The load that made .357 magnum famous was it's original load: a 158-gr bullet fired at 1,525+ ft/s from an 8" barrel to produce 800+ ft·lbf. The trooper loads were downgraded to have less recoil. You're using low recoil .357 Magnum loads to justify shilling 9mm PCCs.
>>65508527Those were hunting loads used by Elmer Keith and Dan Wesson for marketing stunts in Alaska. They destroyed guns and nobody ever carried those or advocated them for carry or law enforcement use. .357 in it's prime as a combat round was defined by 125 grain/1450 fps and 158 grain LSWC/1250 fps and that's why these are still the most common loads today.
>>65508166>>65508166My general rule of thumb is that I have a pistol on me for random encounters, and if I think I might need more than that I just don't go. So logically if I am going somewhere I believe I'll need more than my EDC but for some reason I'm going anyway then it's not going to be with a PCC if I have something more powerful.
>>65508538>for marketing stuntsCope.>They destroyed gunsPartly false. Those loads could destroy all the shitty airweight revolvers and alumium alloy revolvers on the market (all them scandium guns), they will not destroy the carbon steel heavy revolvers and lever guns that were designed for real .357 Magnum.>nobody ever carried those or advocated them for carry or law enforcement use.Incorrect. The original loads were specifically created to defeat 1930s ballistic vests that the law feared prohibition gangsters would get.>that's why these are still the most common loads today.Those weak loads are the most common due to people carrying all the titanium, scandium, stainless steel, and Ergal revolvers on the market. A Ruger GP100, Ruger Redhawk, S&W Model 586, S&W Model 19, etc. can safely take the original loads. Hell, the Ruger Redhawk and Blackhawk were designed to take hotter handloads to please Bubba.
>>65508565No, they destroyed guns before scandium or even aluminum frames existed. That's why the L frame was developed.Elmer Keith developed the .357 for hunting and the loads he used never saw widespread adoption by any law enforcement agency or popularity for civilian defensive carry. The standard loadings today are representative of what was normalized from the 50s onwards. The "manstopper" reputation comes from 125 SJHP at 1450.
>>65508166>End of civilization >Nooooooo, you can’t run around with a heckin riflerino>Gets put down 300 yards past their safe space engagement distance
>>65508166I like my pc carbine. Only thing I really hate about it is if I have an optic mounted to the receiver, taking it down and putting it back together fucks with the zero.
>not a single time stamp>urban cuckOP is a faggot as always
>>65508391What if he didnt run out of ammo with his Beretta? Sounds like that was the issue
>>65508565Youre an idiot who doesnt understand basic material science history. Idk much about revolvers but even I know those lightweight alloy revolvers didnt exist back then
>>65508839You'd lose your backup irons, but you could get an optic mount to replace the rear sight
>>65508166Good luck hunting anything with a 9mm
>>65508500Rather mild .357 Magnum loads perhaps, 9mm Parabellum typically tops out at 147gr for projectile weight, while .357 Magnum very often ranges from 158gr to as much as 200gr. For very lightweight loads of .357 Magnum, you can be looking at 125gr, which will then be going at speeds that 9mm Parabellum could only dream of.>>65509350You can, just stick to smallish game.>>65508565Bunch of uninformed conjecture.
>>65508166I can't believe there are people in this thread that are earnestly responding to this dogshit...
>>65509040>Idk much about revolvers but even I know those lightweight alloy revolvers didnt exist back thenHello moron, in the 1930s only the stainless steel (could not handle the strong loads) and the carbon steel (could definitely handle the strong loads) existed, but the other ones are worth mentioning to understand why the weaker loads are so prolific nowadays. However OP wants to act like those weaker loads are the only ones that exist nowadays, despite Winchester, Black Hills, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, etc. still making the hotter loads that he claims are no longer around.
>>65510249>Bunch of uninformed conjecture.Nope. Law enforcement's concern about beating car doors (which led to the adoption of .38 Super in multiple agencies) and ballistic vests (which led to some agencies looking into .357 Magnum) was well documented.
>>65508487I remember you. You posted this years ago and got me thinking. I run a similar loadout, tricked out mk4 SSH with suppressor and 10/22 TD also tricked out with suppressor. In SHTF starvation is going to be the number one enemy and stealth is the biggest advantage a lone operator has in a situation like that. Easy to carry thousands of rounds of .22lr instead of being weighted down with 5.56 or 7.62.What other gear you carry? I was looking for your other posts back in 2023 a month ago.
>>65508166Why even bother with a PCC when your pistol is just as effective?
>>65516516Different ballistics when you use something with a longer barrel with 9mm. Burns more powder in the barrel.
I really like PCCs, and I think they do pretty well in a home defense scenario.However, its important to always have options in case you need more.I keep three loaded handguns (one by my bedside, one at the hip concealed), one loaded shotgun (by my bedside), one loaded PCC, and one loaded AR-15Can't be too careful, you know?
>>65508839This: >>65509339 is good advice. Put a flip-up rear iron near where your dot currently is, and put your dot where your rear iron currently is. You’ll be simultaneously fixing the problem with your main aiming method and, while adding that problem to your backup in exchange, at least you will also be improving your iron sight radius.
>>65508281Is this bad guy by any chance wearing lvl 2 body armor on his pelvis, shoulders, brain compartment or butthole?
