The Yamato and the Musashi vs the entire Royal Navy battleship force, who wins?
>>65516882seeing as the RN fielded 24 battleships over the course of WWII, them obviouslywhat answer were you expecting?
>>65516886>24 battleshipsMost of them were ancient WW1 vintage though.
>>65516886There’s a guy who’s on a kick of making “what if thing:germany were thing:japan instead” threads lately
>>65516897>guyBot.
>>65516882>who wins?The one that could still acquire fuel
>>65516893Does it matter? They still bite, and need to be shot at, actually hit, and actually sunk. Even the worst they could achieve would be to buy time for the rest of the fleet to pepper Yamato and Musashi into oversized, leaky barges, assuming every RN vessel is would somehow magically be barred from penetrating their main armor belt. 12-to-1 is a pretty bad situation to be found in, when you can fire only just over 1.5 salvos a minute.
>>65516910Jeet.
>>65516882
>>65517114>janny trying to keep the board active so he doesn't get laid offThey fucked this site up permanently with the old 15 minute captcha. It never recovered.
>>65518641Finally, something Yamato's AA might be able to handle.
>>65516882Yamato and Musashi both die of cringe upon seeing a Rodney. Hood still explodes because cannon event
>>65518813Warspite turns up in the wrong bl00dy ocean because steering issues, wanders between them and the ensuing blue on blue is a sight to behold.
>>65516897There's also some semi-regular fag who keeps making pointless threads about the Yamato, could potentially be that loser.
>>65518833She still dodges every incoming 18in shell and then manages to detonate Musashi with a lucky shot. Then does a bunch of uncontrolled circles in celebration.
>>65518840If there was a fight to be had....
Are ship threads always so fucking shit?
>>65518833>Oi capt'in japs have another ship incoming at 12>But it's already 1400>Lol>Lol>But seriously there's a warship that a way>Gimmie that spyglass>*Smacks lips* Yep, it's the Warspite again>Should we help them?>Yes, with euthanasia>Why?>M80, think back to all your experiences with that there ship>I'll ready the guns>Noice, those fuckers will never forget to pay me back 2 quid again
>>65518870Sometimes Americans join in.Remind them they have to buy ships from China
>>65518889Unlike the British, who can't buy ships from anyone with how broke they are. Why can't they understand national debt is a meme and they can run up the tab however high they want? I mean, who's gonna collect if we stop paying?
>>65516882warspite alone assrapes both because it has plot armor
>>65518860Japan aped their one-time naval inspiration to the point of incorporating an old inferior British watertight compartmentalisation scheme. An all-battleship action is not outside potential RN interest, to put it mildly. Yamato and Musashi would definitely suffer numerous hits from 14-16" shells, but unlike USN conclusions from firing into a weakened armor chunk at 0 degrees and less than 1km distance, British analysis concluded that the Yamato class' armor was damned good.The Yamato class were specifically designed to win against numerically superior USN battleships. The RN battleship collection was below that standard.
>>65518914 firing into a weakened armor chunk at 0 degrees and less than 1km distancedunno where "weakened armor chunk" comes from but the USN deliberately reduced the powder charge to try and simulate a shell hit from expected battle ranges.Said chunk was a portion of a turret faceplate which is thicker than the majority of the ships armor anyway.
The Nelsons were some of the best battleships of the time despite looking fucking retarded. They could hold there own against Yamatos
>>65519246>hey could hold there own against Yamatosa 34K ton 23-knot BB with 16 inch guns isn't going toe-to-toe with a ship twice its tonnage, 18 inch guns, and a higher speed
>>65519246uhhh what? they'd have their hands full with the nagato's - the nelsons were super comprimised treaty ships, and they weren't even the best of the treaty ships.
forget op's question, if the entire kido butai magically teleported to norway with the mission to rescue the bismarck and defeat the royal navy in decisive battle could it have done it? assume the ships were also magically updated for cold weather operation.
>>65519522Obviously yes
>>65519522>teleported to norwaytoo far away to help
are there ANY succesfull copes for the RN? superior radar or something? are they just going to get skullfucked
>>65519620Nightfighting ability
>>65519621Wasn't the IJN obsessed with night fighting?
>>65519624yeah and then their radar deficiencies rapidly degraded this capability
>>65519632It appears the IJN battle line is faster than the RN in this scenario so they can control the engagement time
>>65519601wasn't the cope supposed to be that carriers were useless in the atlantic?
>>65519739Thats "germany didn't finish graf zeppelin because of 4d chess and not because of the absolute state of the kriegsmarine" cope
>>65519739Large carrier strike groups were less useful in the Atlantic because the weather fucking sucks, but small escorts were useful
>>65516882Chairman Mao and the Chinese communist party
>>65519781but kido butai was a large carrier task force so it would be disadvantaged then
>>65519880you are a tedious person
>>65516882>The Yamato and the Musashi vs the entire Royal Navy battleship force, who wins?The Royal Navy, but only after losing HMS Hood again.
>>65516893Don't you dare disparage my shipfu WARSPITE
RN would lose 10 BBs in the process of dealing with two qualitatively superior shipsfour Iowas would win against the entire RN BB force without any Iowas being sunk due to their overall excellence as the pinnacle of BB development
>>65519890you are contradicting yourself
>>65518670While true its a good bet that Jeets are being paid to turn /k/ into a designated shitting board.
>>65519522Shōkaku and Zuikaku weren't commissioned until after the Bismark was sunk. They could probably defeat the Royal Navy in a battle, but chances are it wouldn't be decisive.
>>65518837>>65516897it's obviously battleshipfag>>65518870no, when they're not about battleships or 21st century warships>>65518902>who's gonna collectyour children. the majority of national debt is owed to yourself, i.e. your children, but a smaller amount is owed to other nations. when the amount of debt you owe your children becomes so high that your children are unlikely to be able to pay it back, the other nations refuse to lend you any more money because they think you probably won't pay THEM back as well. When your children can't pay you back and the other nations refuse to lend you money, you have to spend less money, i.e. the economy crashes.thank you for coming to (National) Finance 101 ELI5>>65519624so were the bongs. the few actual USN-IJN gunnery battles proved that 1st-gen gunnery radar vs. Jap optics plus 20/20 crewmembers was a wash. 2nd-gen radar would therefore be more accurate and have a longer effective range, handing the advantage over to British battleships from mid-42 onwards.
>>65518870>>65520274Cruisers and Corvettes make for the comfiest ship threads.Ironclads are cool too.
>>655168931 guy with an AR-10 vs 24 guys with Martini-Henrys, place your bets
>>65519246Maybe if the G3s were completed and upgraded by the time they fought Yamato, Nelson class was a hunk of junk with not enough capacity for upgrades
>>65520531>the Yamato-class's rate of fire was 2.5x-50x faster than any British battleships>the Yamato-class's effective range was at least 1.5x longer than any British battleshipsFuck off
>>65520538Sneed
>>65520531Are they fighting on a large, flat area with no cover whatsoever, and the 24 guys have to move slowly together?
>>65520531More like one guy with a machine gun and cover vs 24 guys with flintlock pistols who try to rush him across and open field
>>65520274So OP's a faggot basically.
>>65520229how do you think it would have gone? I don't think the nelsols were fast enough to keep away from the carriers until it was night time which would have been their only chance at being able to fight back.
>>65520959It really depends on teh what-if sacenario we'Re using.IJN doesn't attack Pearl Harbor, ignores the US Phillippine forces and just goes all-out towards the French, Dutch and British colonies?
>>65521003it's just a what if x fought y instead of z, in this case what if the bongs were fighting japan's carriers instead of bismarck?
>>65520813The difference between royal navy's 15 and 16 inch guns and Yamato's 18 inch guns is not the same as between a machine gun and a flintlock pistol, don't be ridiculous. Also 24 guys rushing one guy is still in favour of the flintlocks because they only have to hit one target once.On a side note i wonder if Nelson's 16 inch shells could even penetrate Yamato's armor, i think Drachinifel wargamed an Iowa vs Yamato battle and it ended up with Iowa's 2 inch speed advantage slowly closing the distance whilst both ships were firing potshots at each other, both being able to penetrate each other's decks.
>>65520821Nobody on this board is the owner of a battleship therefore no /k/ user can discuss battleships.(same as nobody on /k/ owns a machine gun therefore it's not possible to have a machine gun topic thread on /k/)Get the logic?
>>65520959Its a bit of a vague scenario and I doubt I'd have strong convictions even if it was more detailed. Didn't think the Kido Butai would be sunk, just that any result was unlikely to be decisive.
>>65516893ww1 was like 20 years prior it's by no means ancient. They would cream those ships
>>65516886>24I make it 19 (22 if we're including the Battlecruisers) and some of those (Centurion, Iron Duke) weren't exactly combat ready.
>>65521003>IJN doesn't attack Pearl Harbor, ignores the US Phillippine forces and just goes all-out towards the French, Dutch and British colonies?They already had the French colony, and the US already had a not-so-secret defense agreement with the Dutch and the Brits against Japan, so nothing would change except now the US has a base right in the middle of the SCS cutting off any IJN forces from Okinawa.
>>65521230yeah but the ships used in ww1 were built before ww1, not in 1919.
>>65521159If you mention decisive battle it invokes the question of what importance the battle would have.
>>65521230The difference between a 1940s ship and a 1910s ship is immense. I'm confident that four Iowas could destroy every ship present at the battle of Jutland with a slight chance of being torpedoed
>>65521281>Centurionwho? me?nuh uh
>>65521159>what if the bongs were fighting japan's carriersIt would mean they'd have won in the Euro theatre and would be shitting out new ships like they were on sale. The nips would be fucked.
>>65521520The British integrated naval air-defence system was immature and would have fared poorly against massed aircraft.
>>65521520the pretend scenario is what if they were fighting in 1941
Yamato vs USS Missouri commanded by Admiral Lee>Lee gets a 1 year shakedown with the crew in this hypothetical to make it even>The ships start out 40km apart>Location is a semi foggy & cloud dense cluster of islands in the middle with channels deep enough to pass through but not wide enough to do anything but sail straight through the other side, with open water around the perimeter for free action>This should allow both ships to play to their respective strengths and weaknesses, trying to equalize superior US radar and gunnery with the experienced Japanese bad-light targeting capabilities.>Yamato is allowed 2 recon planes carrying no armament but if they choose this, then Missouri is given the full up-armouring of 40mm and 5" guns with proximity fuses. Date of the fight is a hypothetical August 1945 where both ships and crews are at their prime and full strength.
>>65521949OK tell us what Claude says
>>65519522>if the entire kido butai magically teleported to norway>6 months after the battle of britainIt would just be feeding planes into the RAF woodchipper at that point. The IJN never needed to deal with an aircraft carrier the size of Great Britain and I do not think it would have gone well for them.
>>65520538>50xYeah, how could we forget the 18" belt fed machine guns Yamato was armed with
>>65522088Remember, Japanese armorers spent years working on a single 18.1" gun, and folded the barrels up to a million times to produce the finest guns known to mankind.
>>65522072>The IJN never needed to deal with an aircraft carrier the size of Great BritainKido Bootay literally dealt with Malaysia and the Philippines.
>>65516893They had modern radar and fire directors installed alongside numerous other refits (such as Warspite having her gun elevation increased to increase her firing range), and by WW1 standards British ships were monstrously overbuilt. They also have plenty of modern battleships, and they have a serious numbers advantage. And many of those ships are faster than Yamato.Yamato and Musashi are getting outmaneuvered and mobbed.
>>65521484The difference is immense, but so was the difference between those ships then and those very same ships in the mid 1940s. Warspite, for example, was more than capable of keeping pace and trading blows with modern Italian battleships in the Mediterranean due to the extensive refits she was given. Or there were the US standard type battleships, which the US admiralty did reasonably expect to stand up in a fight against them using superior numbers (in fact such an engagement nearly happened).
>>65521281A lot of British "battlecruisers" were closer to fast battleships than the glass cannons we think of when we hear the term. Like Hood. She was nearly as well armored as Bismarck, despite being many years here senior.
>>65522106And all 5 of their biplanes. At once!
>>65519205Who's she?
>>65519620The Japs did have dogshit radar for basically the entirety of the war, so the Brits can sight them easier and faster, and have an even bigger advantage at night or in bad weather. They also have more guns, on more ships, which means higher hit probability.>>65519636They're faster than the slow battleships, but if you include the misnamed battlecruisers like Hood, then they have a faster moving line that can harry and hamper the Japanese duo's movements.
>>65516882They get sunk by WWI planes just like the Bismarck did. Decades later, Sabaton makes a kickass song about them.
>>65519932Throw in the SoDaks and I'd buy it.
>>65520274>it's obviously battleshipfagSeems kinda stupid to simp for the Japs if your a battleship autist. The Brits and the Americans had the most, the best, and the coolest battleships, and they actually did shit with them. The Germs get the bronze medal for being wacky and using theirs as commerce raiders, and using a pre-dreadnought to invade Poland (first shot fired in WW2 btw).
>>65520329Commerce raiders are fun. Those Germans got up to some wacky shit. Seeaddler is my favorite, leave to the German Empire to send a full rig sail ship to raid shipping in the age of dreadnought battleships.
>>65522127The only battlecruiser Britain made that was 'fast battleship' worthy was Hood. And even she had massively dogshit deck armor compared to even a compromised battleship like Bismark.The other battlecruisers britain had would be punctured with ease by even lesser WW2 battleship shells.
>>65521183That sounds like faggot logic.
>>65522158>And even she had massively dogshit deck armor compared to even a compromised battleship like Bismark.She was slated to get better deck armor. You know, until Bismark's gunner rolled a nat 20.What was the runner up to Hood in terms of capability at speed in the British battle line?
>>65522148Well lets say the carriers are off chasing some other force right now, so all they have is surface assets.
>>65522169Slated to get, but not built with. She was a very impressive ship for her time, but WW2 fast battleship she was not. Nagato would've gutted her.The next fastest would've been the Repulse and Renown. But they were fairly smaller ships with weak armor.
>>65516882Do we include battlecruisers in this?
>>65522182>Slated to get, but not built withTexas was built coal fired, she was still oil fired like the rest of the fleet by WW2. More deck armor is still more deck armor, maybe not as much more as a ship designed around having more from the outset, but still more.As for Renown and Repulse>6 inch beltYeah, I see what you mean. Still they've got some big guns and can make really good speed. Its not unheard of for small ships to engage larger ones, even with guns. Plenty of stories of destroyers getting into gun fights with cruisers, or cruisers getting into gun fights with battleships. Even if we treat Renown and Repulse like overgrown cruisers, that's still more firepower (being shot more accurately because of British radar fire directors) being brought to bear against the enemy. They could get closer and score a lucky shot, or deal non killing damage and start fires with less lucky shots. A damaged rangefinder or rudder being struck, or the superstructure catching fire is still going to be very bad news for Yamato, even if her belt is never penetrated. I think a line composed of Renown, Repulse, and Hood could work well in concert with the lines of slower battleships.
>>65522214Battlecruisers were a great attempt of nullifying the armored cruiser meta that was happening.The only issue is retarded navies started using them as battleships, causing them to spontaneously explode when a battleship looked at them funny.By WW2, they were obsolete outside of escorting convoys to scare off panzershiffes and such.
>>65522013I would rather take the opinion of the naval autists who will argue letter of the law vs spirit of the law type points from anything from Jutland to whether Washington v Kirishima actually counts as a battleship v battleship duel. Well, point blank 8km execution drive by like Bonnie and Clyde, but still.
>>65522221>By WW2, they were obsolete outside of escorting convoys to scare off panzershiffes and such.And yet convergent evolution lead to navies turning their heavy cruisers into what would've been considered battlecruisers back in the day of the battlecruiser.Anyways, doing some more research, the wikipedia info is wrong. Renown and Repulse had their belts upgraded to 9 inches shortly after commissioning (which just so happened to be right after Jutland) and during the interwar period had their deck armor increased to 5 inches at its thickest point. Also got the same gun elevation upgrade as Warspite. Renown in particular got into a battle with two Scharnhorst class battleships, which she won. She took two 11 inch hits, suffered with minimal damage, then responded with her hits on the ships, forcing them to disengage. They seem pretty effective to me.They also have 8 torpedo tubes each, which combined with their speed gives me an absolutely silly idea of how to use them against this two ship enemy force.
>>65522158you forgot kongo>>65522072why didn't they send land based planes after bismarck then? the mosquito could carry a torpedo.
>>65522343What about Kongo? Even after all her refits she was a glass cannon.
>>65522127Again though: including the Battlecruisers only brings the count to 22, not 24, and some of those (Centurion, Iron Duke) weren't exactly combat ready.
>>65516886How dare you try and insert logic into OP's obviously illogical post!?!?!(Yeah, RN had CV's, shit's wack)
Warspite alone could ram both of them.Its like>Johnn wick with smoothbore vs 2 navy sealsThe seals are already dead, they just dont know it.
>>65521313>and the US already had a not-so-secret defense agreement with the Dutch and the Brits against JapanBut does Congress actually declare war on Japan over a bunch of European colonies somewhere in Asia?Don't forget that France and the Netherlands are already gone in Europe, they lost against Germany.I honestly don'T know enough, but it seems that Congress was still very muuch isolationist at that time, adn preferred to just sell planes and weapons without actually fighting in a war they perceived as 'none of our business'
>>65522088tell that to ARnigger >>65520531>>65522152>Seems kinda stupid to simp for the Japs if your a battleship autistbut makes a lot of sense if you want to make grandiose claims; there is less fact to get in the way of your fiction.>and they actually did shit with them“Bullshit is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about.”-Harry Frankfurt.corollary: when the objective is to bullshit, it is best to choose a topic nobody knows much about.since we know more about the limitations and histories of British and American battleships, Japanese battleships are the best for OP to talk aboutthat's the allure of what-ifs like OP is obsessed about; because nothing actually happened, the whole thing is rife with hypotheticals and unknowns, so there's less factual information to stop OP from claiming that this coulda woulda shoulda happened. no hard data and no falsifiable theories means OP can win by dint of rhetoric and repetition; whoever shouts louder and repeats their opinions more often, wins. and you can never out-talk an autist; they can simply ignore rationale and logic, and waste more time and breath than you using rhetoric and repetition to insist upon themselves>The Germs get the bronze medal for being wacky and using theirs as commerce raiders, and using a pre-dreadnought to invade Poland (first shot fired in WW2 btw)Hard agree
>>65522351>What about Kongo?burning rabu
>>65522738FDR would just do a false flag just like in real life.
>>65519522it's weather that becomes the main issue>>65520959>how do you think it would have gone?the Japs sink a bunch of Countys and claim the entire RN battle line is at the bottom of the sea, then Warspite emerges from the mists and goes axe murderer on them>>65521159>it's just a what if x fought y instead of zreally hard to say, but generally, the advantage becomes greater for the bongs than the bongs had in the Pacific, because they're more familiar with the weather, the weather negates much of the Japs' air wing superiority and deck spotting, and (again weather) the impossibility of deck parks will knock 10-15 aircraft off each Jap carrier's operational air wing>>65522738this is more political and nothing to do with the above scenario. without American lives being killed, the US stance is clear; they did in fact let the world go to shit all the way to Dec 1941 so long as they weren't bothered.the embargoes and British assistance were virtually ramrodded through by China- and UK-sympathetic factions, sometimes in secret; the others were quite solidly neutral.
>>65522940so it would all come down to whether there would be a storm lasting long enough for the bongs to sneak into gun range while the carriers couldn't launch planes? even with reduced air wings and limiting to only cardiv 1 and 2 with only type 96 fighters instead of zeroes I don't see the bong fleet being anything but target practice in open water with clear skies.
This is a pretty shit thread.
>>65523823It's just a brown ESL slide thread that's gone on for too long
>>65519396Not after the crew overheatsI would trust a 1920s design over a upgraded dreadnought
>>65521159Any British "armored flight deck" advantage would have been negated by objectively better Japanese aircraft, pilots, and tactics early war.After marinas turkey shoot would be a numbers game.
>>65522810There are actual fun what ifs you could do that over. Like the battle between the standard types and Yamato that very nearly did happen. I can't quite remember which battle it was (maybe Leyte, maybe Matapan) but it had both Yamato and a squadron of American standard types present, and had the American admiral had better intel on the location of the Japanese fleet, he likely would've sent his battleships against it.There's plenty of room for argument on either side as to who could've won that engagement.
This thread is gayer than two gay dudes rimming each other at gay pride.
>>65523820okay now that's going a bit too far, I'd bet on Sea Gladiators over Type 96s any day.>>65524345>There's plenty of room for argument on either sideToo much room.
>>65524511>I'd bet on Sea Gladiators over Type 96s any day.Gladiator is great "for a biplane" with 4 guns and short tight turns, but is slightly inferior in a dogfight to a Type 96 for its lack of energy.
>>65524744WW2 pilots said 5% difference in power and speed isn't significant, and the A5M might not sustain its max speed for longer than the Gladiator because of the lack of canopy
>>65524345>MatapanAh yes, that legendary near battle between the USN and IJN.... in the Mediterranean
>>65517114>Jeet.I doubt it, there's no izzat in this.>>65516910>Bot.Possible but more likely just an autist, which admittedly is sort of the same thing.>>65516897>There’s a guy who’s on a kick of making “what if thing:germany were thing:japan instead” threads latelySome of those autists are /r9k/ fugitives who lurk other boards and make really terribly threads in which they talk about how terrible they are to try for social interaction or at least pity.See the stealth thread: >>65515788They're not /k/ specific, some lurk random boards like /fit/ and /ck/ as well. I tend to believe they lurk most slow boards that aren't hyperfocused on an inaccessible niche subject. /po/ is probably safe.
>>65522138Mutsu, you can even see her nameplate
>>65525591>you can even see her nameplateL-lewd!
>>65525316holy shit what is that, two dozen torpedo hits? that's almost more dicks than OP's mum has had
>>65525316Wait, this is a bit unclear.Did they have flooding inside the citadel, or not?And how much of that is counterflooding?I mean, it's probably not too important given the number of torp and bomb hits, but still.
>>65520274>your children. the majority of national debt is owed to yourself, i.e. your children,No most of it is owed to carry traders, hedge funds and investment bankers. The rest is owned by pension funds and soverign wealth funds (Norway, Saudi Arabia, Dubai etc). The debt is supposed to be paid by your children. BTW the reserve requirement for bank loans invested in government bonds is zero. America is slowly sliding towards a premature debt crisis because of the Iran war, everyone was expecting this to happen in the 2030s. The debt load across the entire american economy (federal, state, county, private, commercial) is so huge (over 700% of GNP) that a return to 1980s rates isnt possible as interest payments alone would surpass 100% of GNP. Most people do not understand how the monetary system works, and in particular the american monetary system since it is kind of unique. America is dependent on a constant inflow of foreign dollars which is invested in american securities (bonds, stocks, real estate etc). This inflow has been broken by the Iran war. Also, the value of the american dollar is backed by an enormous amount of third parties. Contrast this with f.ex the norwegian or swedish krona, which is backed only by norwegian or swedish exports. If these third parties for some reason starts to abandon the dollar, the value of the dollar, if backed only by american exports, would be quite a lot lower, which you can deduce from the american annual trade deficit of 1 000 billion dollars. America can also skim about 3-4% of global GNP from being a middleman currency exchanger in the dollar system. America also gains unique insight in global trade flows. America can also sanction people in other countries because of the dollar system. Its a major strategic ace card that only America has.
>>65525682>your children>No>The debt is supposed to be paid by your childrenwdhmbt>Contrast this with f.ex the norwegian or swedish krona, which is backed only by norwegian or swedish exportsyou're also describing an American export: financial security. the only reason that there is>a constant inflow of foreign dollars which is invested in american securitiesis because of that security.
>>65525682(cont)This means that America cant retreat from the Iran war because Iran will only enter peace with the gulf arabs if they break with the oil dollar system. That would kill both the inflow of foreign dollars into american securities and also reduce the interest in holding dollars among third parties because you dont need dollars to buy oil any more meaning it would be a double blow against America. This ensures that America must defeat Iran or lose its current position as the world's big boss country. My best guess is America negotiating a quick end to the Ukraine war and crushing Zelensky if he doesnt play along, then forming a giga coalition of NATO and Latin American countries to invade Iran, like Bush the elder did before invading Iraq in 1991. And it would have to happen as fast as possible.
>>65518902>Why can't they understand national debt is a meme and they can run up the tab however high they want?Anon, the Brits are the ones who first figured that out. Why the fuck do you think it was British money bankrolling every other bumpower in Europe throughout the 1700 and 1800s? While France was going bankrupt supporting the American Revolution, Britain had already successfully financed its victory in the French and Indian War, recovered from the American Revolution, and was still able to pay everyone else for the Napoleonic Wars.
>>65525712>America must defeat Iran or lose its current position as the world's big boss countrylol no
>>65525712>My best guess is America negotiating a quick end to the Ukraine war and crushing Zelensky if he doesnt play along, then forming a giga coalition of NATO and Latin American countries to invade Iran, like Bush the elder did before invading Iraq in 1991.Elder Bush was an experienced diplomat (everyone talks about his CIA stint but forgets that he also served as the US's de facto ambassador to China and the UN too) and the USA's establishment in general was just better staffed by more sober minded and professional people (hiring crisis and dead morale in the State Department is a big thing right now).Trump's attempt at a 1991 style coalition would probably get some lolcow allies like a potential Bolsonaro Junionr-led Brazil, Colombia, and Argentina, but I bet the EUropeans will just watch from the sidelines
>>65525703>you're also describing an American export: financial security. the only reason that there isYeah about that, the functionality of the system that delivers that security is in question because a constant inflow of foreign dollars being parked in american securities is necessary because these dollars provide liquidity. Imagine the dollar system like a giant jenga tower and Iran is trying to yank out a critical supporting block at the very bottom of the tower.
>>65525743>a constant inflow of foreign dollars being parked in american securities is necessary because these dollars provide liquidityit's a virtuous cycle: a smaller amount of economic, military and political security kickstarts the cycle, attracting a large number of investors and liquidity; then that liquidity becomes its own attraction in large part, thanks to a myriad of reasons, not least a huge financial moat against shocks. or as some say in poker: big stack fucks small stack.> Iran is trying to yank out a critical supporting blockfar more powerful enemies than Iran have triedAmerica has lost bigger wars than this and still defended the US Dollar
>>65525712>My best guess is America negotiating a quick end to the Ukraine war and crushing Zelensky if he doesnt play alongWhen are you faggots gonna stop pushing this absolute bullshit
>>65525712LMAO you're brown
>>65516882>The Yamato and the Musashi
>>65526262
>>65524345>There's plenty of room for argument on either side as to who could've won that engagement.Its as if the battleships were the only ships present on either side. The CVE in the area would've made it incredibly lopsided. I'm sure you could get a long discussion about the merits of either side in a hypothetical where just the battleships were present, but just looking at the tonnage its about 2 to 1 in favor of the US. >>65525676Bottom diagram seems to show a bit of flooding in the citadel around some of the torpedo hits especially the tight grouping of 4 hits, not sure why it doesn't match the top left cross section. >The next four torpedoes strike port, further flooding boiler room No. 8 and the aft 25-mm gun magazine. Three of those four torpedoes strike port amidships in the vicinity of engine room No. 4. A 30-foot long section of the ship's side is gouged out. The engine room floods causing MUSASHI to lose her other portside shaft. Her speed drops to six knots. https://www.combinedfleet.com/musashi.htm
>>65519246>interwar design>even Yamato has a 4 knot speed advantageI'm not convinced a Nelrod could've 1v1d Bismarck or Tirpitz, let alone a Yamato. (Fighting an outnumbered and heavily damaged Bismarck doesn't count) With the sole exception of if Rodney gets a night-fight because Japanese radar sucked, I'm betting the ship that's faster, has bigger guns and thicker armour will win, or at the very least, will easily bug out if Rodney scores a lucky hit.>>65522158>No, Hood's deck armour wasn't shit and Bismarck's guns could not have penned it at Denmark strait.^me typing. I looked it up, yeah, her deck armour kinda was dogshit (1" in many places) but 3" over magazines and it's still right that Bismarck could not have penned it in the battle. According to NavWeaps, Yamato would be able to pen it at a bit under 20,000 yards.
>who winsUSN Essex-class fleet carriers and their air group
>>65527885>her deck armour kinda was dogshit (1" in many places) but 3" over magazines Hood had several layers of deck armor though, something they would probably have changed if tehy had refitted her.>and it's still right that Bismarck could not have penned it in the battleThey started firing at something like 20 km, and both sides had relatively flat-shooting guns.
>>65527885>With the sole exception of if Rodney gets a night-fight because Japanese radar suckedFunnily enough, Yamato in particular did display quite accurate radar-only gunnery at Samar, scoring accurate first-salvo straddles and then a hit when engaging USS Gambier Bay through a zero-visibility smokescreen at something around 22,000 yards.
This is kind of a draw. The Yamatos plain don't have enough ammo to kill the whole damn Royal Navy's line of battle, but they have more than enough to brutally curbstomp any bong capital fast enough to actually keep up with them.
>>65526793>The CVE in the area would've made it incredibly lopsided.The CVE wouldn't have been in the area had the battleships been sent, they were two separate forces. One was a surface action force, the other was a carrier force.>>65525115I'm no expert on WW2 and my memory was hazy. I did some googling afterwards, and it was Leyte.
>>65516882It gets zergrushed by WW1 antiques and sinks fast.
>>65531389no, the escort carriers were part of the landing force. the carrier force was task force 34 which was off chasing zuikaku and the battleship force was defending surigao strait. the escorts were also only carrying fm-2s with no anti-ship weapons equipped.
>>65531463They were also carrying avengers.
>>65527885Rodney did the lions share of the work against Bismarck though, and was her primary target. The fact that she didn't land a hit is down to Rodneys captain chasing splashes and the fact that Bismarck got stove the fuck in by Rodney's 16"/45s really fucking quickly.The other combatants might as well have not been there for all the good they did beyond slowing Bismarck down so she could get caught.
>>65531811I don't think they had torpedoes though
>>65531870>Not mentioning she probably torpedoed Bismarck as well
>>65531888They weren't carrying/using them initially, but they had them.
>>65532191
>>65522148In late war, Japan ships have issued emergency rudder, which just a oversized wooden plank.
>>65531870>Rodney did the lions share of the work against Bismarck though,nah that was the swordfish that delivered the torpedo>Swordfish destroys rudder>Bismarck cannot escape>Heavy ships catch Bismarck#1 contributor to creating the situation
>>65531870by the time they fought Bismarck was meandering along at 7 knots and veering around like she was drunkand some of her crew really were drunk, because lindemann/lutjens were doomers and announced everybody they could help themselves to the cigarettes and alcohol lockerssomehow still scored some quick straddles on Rodney>>65532331imagine Bismarck got the rudder fixed as Rodney comes over the horizon. She'd fuck off and Rodney wouldn't be able to do jack about it. KGV was quicker, she might be able to have a gun fight with a retreating Bismarck. Best Rodney can do is wish her luck.
>>65522127>Hood was nearly as well armored as BismarckNo,while their armor scheme might look outwardly similar.Bismarck vital citadel horizontal protection of 12.6+ 4 in heavily sloped belt(over 60 deg) was a lot stronger than Hood layout 12+2 in with far less sloping could ever be. Bismarck horizontal citadel protection of her magazine and vital boiler machinery was actually even stronger than Yamato itself.Bismarck layered decks design also was fairly strong against plunging AP shell, a myth still being perpetuated by pop history fags, but proven wrong with post war british/us testshttps://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/viewtopic.php?p=16227#p16227https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/viewtopic.php?p=1107211#p1107211Or to summarize it>Bismarck’s three deck horizontal protection scheme > Upper deck de-capped the projectile and triggered its delay-action fuze.> Projectile would detonate on armored Middle Deck.> Fragments would be caught by Lower Deck.The tradeoffs is her layered decks might be slightly less armored against AP bombs from dive bomber than a singular thick deck, say a 5 in singular would probably be better than Bismarck 2+ 3.2 in layered scheme.Is Bismarck protection the best for her weight class? Probably no, considering her main turrets and barbettes is rather poorly armored for a 50000t BB, but her turret is still better protected than both KGV or Vanguard, and only inferior to US fast BBs or Yamato, at the cost of better vital citadel protection against naval gunfires.>>65519522>teleported to norwayThe Kido Butai wouldn't be nearly as effective in the stormy Atlantic. A better alt scenario, and also realistic one is German put all their available resources on U-boat when Walter Helmuth first propose a Walter turbine-powered design in 1930, and got a Walter boat operational by 1940/41. That would be a real nightmare for the Bongs, even if their intelligence could learn of its development
The upper decks of Yamato class ships were 35–50 mm thick; they would have functioned as "bomb decks," capable of triggering fuzes or stripping off shell caps.
>>65516882Lanchester equations still don't favour it unless it manages to pull some Kantai Kassen bullshit and stack the engagement as a sequence of 1v1's. But damn the Yamato class were fucking cool. I know it's the popular thing to shit on axis power designs these days but you just can't with these things.
>>65532191>That erection inducing pic.Blue board anon, blue board!
>>65532889>they would have functioned as "bomb decks," capable of triggering fuzes or stripping off shell caps.Yes, but at the same time they had those 155 turrets sitting there like some retarded videogame weakspot.
>>65532971>blue board![muffled honhonhon in the distance]
>>65525673Twenty. She took twenty torpedo hits before going down. Actually caused US Navy analysts to shit bricks at the time.
>>65525712>My best guess is America negotiating a quick end to the Ukraine warNo leverage to do that.>and crushing ZelenskyNo ability to do that.>then forming a giga coalition of NATO and Latin American countries to invade IranNobody's interested in cleaning up Trumps' mess for him.
>>65525747Bigger wars perhaps, yet none that came anywhere near as close to hitting the system at its most vulnerable points. Hormuz and Bab el-Mandeb are two of the most important keystones the entire petrodollar system rests upon.
>>65532191>>65532193LMAO. Perfection.
>>65533148>le petrodollartell me anon, in a year, how much is the US-denominated petroleum trade worth?
>>65533150At the rate it's going? Less than today.Sorry if I didn't answer your leading question the way you would ahve liked.
>>65533154You're sidestepping the question because you know the answer didn't fit your preconceived notion.
>>65533161>sidesteppingAs predicted. Sorry, not sorry that you don't like the answer because I didn't play along with your little attempt.
>>65533139IIRC she would have gone down with fewer if they'd been weighted on one side - something about accidental counterflooding. I want to say the Navy figured that out pretty quick and told the aircrews they sent against the Yamato to focus torpedo hits on one side.
>>65532778>The Kido Butai wouldn't be nearly as effective in the stormy Atlantic.yes but the question is whether it would be effective enough to beat the bongoloid navy full of slow battleships with no dp secondaries and a single carrier with a few dozen biplanes. I think it would and I'm still waiting for someone to explain why it wouldn't.
>>65533370 Probably, it might not have mattered all that much depending on how long it would've taken her to sink. The last attack accounted for half of the torpedoes took, its hard to know how many were necessary in her actual sinking and if they still would've hit her if she was in the process of sinking. >>65534003There were multiple answers questioning distance, scouting and if it would've been decisive.
>>65534487no one even tried to argue their claims though. the slowest jap carrier was kaga at 28 knots. this is 5 knots faster than rodnol and people were already arguing that yamato could control the engagement with a 4 knot advantage. the air group would also be vastly superior in both quantity and quality of planes, even accounting for reduced operational capacity in the atlantic. even if you put the battle in early 1941 before they got their zeroes they still had the same dive bombers and torpedo bombers that were shown to be effective at pearl harbor and midway. the only thing the bong fleet could do is hide near land within the range of raf support. if they tried to get into gun range during the night or bad weather the japs could use their speed advantage to get away. I don't see how a daytime engagement in open water would be anything but a decisive victory.
Had a formidable Axis fleet appeared in the Atlantic, would the Royal Navy's operational methods have shifted toward the kind of large-scale fleet formations seen in the Mediterranean?
>>65535196Not sure of the purpose or expected value of this question
>>65535173I don't think they need to argue that Norway was nowhere near where the Bismarck sank. IJN had scouting issues in the Indian Ocean, Coral Sea and Midway. It wasn't exclusive to the IJN, but gets in the way of winning a decisive battle. As far as it not being decisive, the battle being decisive is probably outside of the scope of the intended question. If the answers are they're too far away, they can't find/identify them correctly, the result wouldn't be decisive or as you put the RN would try to get to relative safety, there's no real need for a detailed comparison.
>>65535329the scouting problem at midway was that the message from tone didn't get delivered to nagumo in time, not that the fleet was incapable of doing so. really I don't see everyone is being so evasive about a simple hypothetical. no one brushes off any of these battleship vs battleship fantasies with "well it's hard to say if iowa would beat roma in a fight because she would probably be going off in the wrong direction so they would never encounter each other."
>>65535526>really I don't see everyone is being so evasive>>65535173>no one even tried to argue their claims thoughBased on the replies you posted, that's the fault of the pro-Jap-carrier faction ITT, not the pro-battleship faction, why are you bitching about us?> if they tried to get into gun range during the night or bad weather the japs could use their speed advantage to get awayPresuming the Japs know exactly where the British fleet is.>I don't see how a daytime engagement in open water would be anything but a decisive victory.Well done, there's a clever lad.
>>65535992I don't even know what you're talking about at this point. I already stated the advantages I think the kido butai has. are you going to agree now that it would win in a clear weather fight?
>>65536517>I don't even knowYes, we know.>it would win in a clear weather fight?far away from the reach of Coastal Command, in very clear weather, sure.FYI it's overcast in the North Sea and the North Atlantic more than 50% of the time
>>65536578But I want Yamato to win so just say they win
>>65536578>overcastyou can't fly if there's clouds?
>>65536890NTA but >>65536517 seems to think that clear weather matters.
>>65536890Your planes can't find any boats.
>>65537139you make it sound like it's impossible for anyone to find anything. how did the bongs find bismarck?
>>65537248At sea?By picket cruiser with radar, then they lost it.Then they re-acquired when Hood spotted it optically.Then tehy lost it.They searched by plane, but failed to find it for days.A US Catalina found it, and told the British.One carrier strike found it, another strike failed to find it.Then they lost contact.They re-acquired by Catalina, and sent another carrier strike.Then Bismarck transmitted a fucking long sperging letter to der fuhrer, which was triangulated by teh HFDF system, which allowed teh RN to send cruisers and DDs to shadow it, which worked this time around because Bismarck was already slowed and damaged.They knew where it was, which direction it was going, and which port it was headed for and still largely failed to keep it detected despite having complete air uperiority over the Atlantic.The North Atalntic (and trhe North Sea for that matter) are dogshit for flying, two thirds of the daylight hours you still can't see shit.
>>65537410ok but they found it at least 3 times with planes?
>>65522158>massively dogshit deck armorComplete myth btw
>>65537562By WW2 standards, Hood's deck armor was woefully outdated. Even compromised warships like bismark had much better deck protection.
>>65537549over a span of two weeks or so, with US help and complete air superiority
>>65537618>with US help>>65537410>A US Catalina found ita US-built Catalina purchased by the RAF and crewed by mostly-British RAF crew that happened to include one American national, one of a handful of volunteers serving with the RAF, to be preciseanyone attributing that find to the US would have to attribute the recent F-15 losses to the US too, on the grounds that they were also shot down by "American" aircraftalso, Swordfish independently acquired the Bismarck before Ark Royal was informed of the Catalina sighting>They re-acquired by Catalinanopeit was only spotted by Catalina onceafter the Swordfish attacks it was tracked by surface radar>>65537549they found it only twice with planes, and only after making an educated guess as to its heading and destination, and only because it was already trailing a huge oil slick from the battle with Hoodif you want an example of how things can fuck up in plane spotting, go read about Coral Sea>>65537248>you make it sound like it's impossible for anyone to find anythingonly because you persist in making it sound like it's impossible for anyone to NOT find anything.
>>65537618>>65537661so then it's just as pointless to ask if the yamato could have beaten the bongolid navy because it only had type 0 observation floatplanes and wouldn't have been able to find anything either.
>>65537661>a US-built Catalina purchased by the RAF and crewed by mostly-British RAF crew that happened to include one American nationalSo without the US there wouldn't have been a Catalina, and the crew would have been a guy short, presumably twiddling their thumbs waiting for Britain to build them a plane.>after the Swordfish attacks it was tracked by surface radarHuh, really? I thought it was detected by plane twice, but maybe I was mixing that up with the Swordfishes finding it.Well, it was tracked by surface radar at the time Bismarck accidentally used the secret technique of 'doing a turn' to escape the radar tracking, at least.Ironically the Germans never realized they had broken contact.
>>65537690Reality is not a binary always - never.
>>65537709we aren't talking about reality though. we're talking about autistic what if scenarios only a few steps removed from batman vs superman.
>>65537721Yes. Those are not always - never binary either.
>>65537733do you think you are being funny?
>>65537701>the secret technique of 'doing a turn'according to secret documents found in Berlin after WW2, it is called the Nascar Manoeuvre>without the US there wouldn't have been a Catalinathere's a limit to how far you can push that sort of thing>without the British colonists there wouldn't have been an America>>65537690>so then it's just as pointlessyes, like this whole thread
>>65521230In early 20th century naval R&D, 20 years was indeed absolutely ancient. In fact, you could make the argument that the Yamato itself was ancient by the time she fought in 1945, and I ain't just talking about "muh carriers".
>>65537610>compromised warships like bismarkWhich part of her design was compromised?
>>65537755Never.
>>65537783Being a fuckhueg bloated ship with comparable fighting potential as a SoDak?
>>65537783Her armoring scheme was essentially a slightly improved version of what the last High Seas Fleet superdreadnoughts used.Unlike the all-or-nothing scheme used by other nations she wasted a huge mass of armor on plates of medium thickness that offered very little protection.Her deck armor was also splt into three decks, which is far less effective at stopping shells or bombs than using the same mass in one armor deck plus a splinter deck.
>>65537759>there's a limit to how far you can push that sort of thingYes. In this case, the limit is that without US help there are no Catalinas.
>>65537793>which is far less effective at stopping shellsNta, but combined spaced array was actually found to be 30-50% more effective than single thickness armor with the same total absolute value against AP shells.>It has been observed that spaced armor is most efficient when the attacking projectile is broken up by the skirting plate. When this happens, spaced armor arrangements can effect weight savings in the range of 30% to 50% over solid armor with no sacrifice in protection https://www.scribd.com/document/268881242/Spaced-Armor-ADA954865Page 10 in the scanned link.Although, it ís expected the spaced array should perform a bit worse against bombs dropped from high altitude compare to single thickness plate.That said, the design was clearly compromised due to her main armored deck was mounted so low inside the ship, so anything between MAD and weather deck is all dead meats.Even cucked design like KGV has a better horizontal total volume due to her MAD mounted much higher
>>65537783it took 50,000 tons to fight like a treaty Battleship 25% lighterpart of the reason is the secondary armament, split into two full sets of HA and LA batteries
>>65538112>>65537789>hurr durr 50,000 tonsthat one sabaton song mindfucked everybody. Bismarck carried 8,400 tons of fuel, that +/- other items (water, supplies) is the difference between her 50,000 ton deep load and 41,700 ton standard load.Note: don't compare deep loads either. Bismarck could carry a lot of fuel and was much longer ranged compared to most other battleships. Load her to go the same range as Littorio, suddenly she's a 45,000 tonner.She carries about the same fuel as Iowa, for similar range. (maybe -- they're quoted at different speeds but they scale to something similar)>Compare to HoodHood is actually HEAVIER by light load displacement.>Norcal36,600 t standard, 44,800 full load>Iowa48,100 standard, 57,500 full load>Littorio40,100 standard, 45,236 full load>Bismarck41,700 standard, 50,300 full loadSo ... 5,000 t heavier than a Norcal (though better armoured and 2 kn faster), about 1,500 t heavier than Littorio (for fairly similar specs), 6,500 t lighter than Iowa (while being 3 kn slower and having weaker deck armour, but thicker belt armour)I'm not seeing the "being massively overweight" part. Being a bit inefficient? Sure, especially because of having no dual purpose secondaries. But she is maybe 1,000 to 2,000 t heavier than she should be compared to peers, and considering she gets the extra armour of a distributed scheme, not so bad at all.
>>65538184>5,000 t heavier than a Norcal>I'm not seeing the "being massively overweight" part.Dude.Bismarck is officially 13% heavier than Treaty battleships.
>The screeching wehraboo has arrived
>>65538212Very cool, but do you have anything to contribute?Else, updoot center is two pride streets down and to the left
>>65538197Anon she's slower, deeper drafted and had massive vibration issues, because the USN was spending squillions on hitting a magic weight number.Compare NC to Iowa then. Basically the same guns (yeah yeah 45 vs 50 caliber who cares) and similar armour (Iowas has a 6" deck vs NC's 5" IIRC) but ... +12,000 tons to gain 5 knots.Old Biscuit going up 5,000 to gain 2 knots, and getting better armour in the deal, doesn't seem too bad does it?
>>65538293Bismarck isn't terrible, she's just not as good as an all or nothing armor scheme and a unified 12.8 cm DP battery should have made her.
>>65538293(self-reply)>>65538212Bismarck online has done the same shit most German shit did. Everybody was still huffing British propaganda 20 years ago that Nazis were magic moon-science wizards, 10 years ago people started realising all the Wunderwaffe were way less impressive than made out, and now they've overcorrected into saying everything the krauts made was total garbage. My opinion is just a middle-ground that, it wasn't that good, and it definitely wasn't that bad.
>>65538307Yeah.Caveat: I think the distributed scheme actually did make sense for her, since the Kriegsmarine was basically doomed to fight outnumbered and without easy access to repair facilities. If you're the USN or RN, sure, the odd cruiser shell blowing out a fuel tank is no big deal, you just fix it. If you're the KM, you don't have the support to "just go home and fix it".Bismarck gets a lot of shit for blowing her radar up with her own guns. New Jersey did exactly the same thing. The difference is that the USN could "just fix it" and the KM couldn't.
>>65538293>doesn't seem too bad does it?sure, if you don't look at radar, habitability, AA fit...>>65538314>British propaganda 20 years ago that Nazis were magic moon-science wizardsBismarck was already assessed by the RN as an outdated and inefficient build in the immediate postwar period, if not the immediate post-Bismarck period
>Triggered wehraboo continues to cry into his reichsadler blankie
>>65538314>all the Wunderwaffe were way less impressive than made outThat depend. German submarine and rocketry developments, plus chemical weapons was definitely very advanced compare to the Allies. Type XXI, while plagued by hit-or-miss german manufacturing as a result of strategic bombings, no doubt was still a very impressive feat for her time. Walter submarine also promised a better submerged despite their glaring issues. The nerve gases was also something that could come close to the destructive power of an early atomic bomb, the Luftwaffe was just non-existent by 1944, when they managed to mass produce a sizable stockpile to actually try something with it.
they could sink both with just their 180~ torpedo armed destroyers. Throwing in 15 battleships and 20 heavy/battle cruisers and 15 battleships and 4 carriers and a few dozen submarines on top of that would just be disrespectful
>>65518670>janny trying to keep the board active so he doesn't get laid offDamn if he gets laid off how will he pay his bills?
>>65538888Check em>Janny are you ok?>Are you ok janny?
>>65532524Running away isn't winning a 1vs.1, and losing against a ship 10,000 tons lighter is pretty pitiful.>>65532778>blah blah plunging fire armour autistryDidn't help her much against Rodney now did it. Now i'm not saying this to be some moustache twirling counter-autist faggot, just that with this ludicrous scenario when you're getting chased down by over a dozen BBs that might well be inferior on paper you're going to take some unfavourable hits which will slow you down, and even if you take half of them out the other half are going to get inside a range where no kruppstahl or samurai 1000x folded autism hardened layout will save you and you're going to get your shipussy gaped like kamikaze in new delhiI mean fuck, the more interesting question would be what sort of contrived scenario you'd need to come up with to give the pre-dreadnought force that would have tried to force the dardanelles a fighting chance at taking out a single Yamato. I think it could be done, but you might have to come up with some Myeongnyang horseshit to make it happen, with a boarding action if necessary
>>65538362>Bismarck was already assessed by the RN as an outdated and inefficient build in the immediate postwar periodAnd just like the Battle of Britain they kept spouting propaganda about the nigh-unstoppable nazi menace that was just barely stopped by a few brave, plucky British lads in three Spitfires and five Swordfishes.While in reality the Kriegsmarien was hopelessly outclassed and outmatched in every way possible, and the Luftwaffe was mismanaged by a former fighter pilot, now methhead as his personal autism project (if he wasn't busy playing with model trains, cospalying as master huntsman or being high on crack)
>>65539649>Didn't help her much against RodneyAt those ranges ther was no armor on the planet that would have held.
>>65539649If they had fixed the rudder, 10,000% Lutjens would have booked it at top speed.You're also forgetting about KGV. Against an opponent that can move, suddenly she's way more important than Rodney.In a "clean" 1v1, Bismarck might sink Rodney, but Rodney probably won't sink Bismarck, because she can just run away if Rodney starts to win.
>>65539833>pwease no bully we wuz clean wehrmacht and sheeit
>>65540356post says>nazis were incompetent fucksand you arrive at>pwease no bully we wuz clean wehrmacht and sheeitYou need to stop huffing bong post-facto propaganda from the 1950s.
>>65538362>sure, if you don't look at radarAt the time of her sinking, which USN/RN fire control radar was better than Fumo 23?If you want to compare later Mk 8 FC with proven combat record at Leyte, Fumo 26 director onboard Tirpitz from 1944 or Prinz Eugen as of her 1945 settings has an accuracy of 55 yards, ranging to 21 nmi, or almost 40km.https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/uss-prinz-eugen/For comparison, US Mk8 that shot Japs BB to shit at Surigao had an accuracy of 15 yards + 0.1*range, so at 20000-25000 yards for any typical battleship duel, their accuracy would be around 35-40 yards.https://www.eugeneleeslover.com/ENGINEERING/OP658.pdfThe Mk8 was hardly much more accurate than late war FUMO 26 set onboard Tirpitz/Prinz Eugen. A 5-10 yards accuracy improvement wouldn't be much of a magic wand to decisively determine the outcome for a battleship duel.
>>65542351which radar set did Bismarck mount?
if bismarck had radar directed aa could it have shot down the dreaded biplane?
>>65540937>bong propagandaReminder that the bongs actually claimed that the Bren was the best mg of the war.
>>65542791I remember reading years ago (so probably fudlaw) that her range clocks for her AA fuses couldn't be set for something that flew as slow as the swordfish
>>65542804
>>65542805I also remember reading that there was a test done and setting the fuses completely randomly had a higher shoot down rate than trying to use them as intended.
Ah, it's warriortard having the periodic melty. Now it all makes sense
>>65542818 <- is warriortard by the waystop trying to take credit for someone else's bong obsession
>>65542815I can't say whether this is true or not, but it's true that a systematic fault can have worse results than gaussian distribution
>>65516882If its day the Japs sink 2-6 enemy battleships before getting swamped. This is the kind of fight they were designed for.If it is night or in a storm the Japs are sunk without the Bongs losing a single capital ship. Because the Japs have shit radar.
>>65542776FUMO23only accurate enough for range finding
>>65544379Fairy cute
>>65542351>At the time of her sinking, which USN/RN fire control radar was better than Fumo 23?Type 284 had more shock-proof mountings. turns out which radar was better in real operational conditions is dependent on way more than just range and accuracy under test conditionseveryone jokes about how urinals were supposedly shattered by the Nelson's guns firing, but nobody talks about how Bismarck's guns shattered her own fire control radar, which might be considered to be a somewhat more critical piece of equipment
>>65548061yes anon, people do talk about thatthey rarely mention New Jersey also broke her radar with her own gunsbut breaking shit doesn't matter when you have the USN's logistics behind you
>>65548061>which might be considered to be a somewhat more critical piece of equipmentYou might think that until you need to go.
>>65542804Nobody claims that other than the spandau man.
>>65548223oh no, I'm on a boat surrounded by the open sea and the urinals are broken, where on earth am I going to pee, out here on this boat surrounded by the open sea?
>>65543290How many hits are you expecting it to take for a ship to sink?
>>65550000Wasted. Still, begrudgingly checked.>>65543290DIGITS DEMANDS AN ANSWER, ANON. Better make it a good one.
>>65550000Four bullseyes, clearly
>>65516882the entire royal navy battleship force.Why even ask? You could add in Shinano in her original design to be a Yamato class and even upgrade the Yamato to be a super Yamato with the big double fuck off guns and that would still lose.24ish battleships varying from dogshit to above average is going to do a lot better than 2-3 really good heavy battleships.>>65516893It doesn't really matter much when we are talking about the fact that a gun from pre WW1 hits about as hard as a gun from WW2. Most of them also had upgraded fire control or recon aircraft to help them with targeting. >>65519246Honestly, if the battleship was still relevant after WW2, future design would probably have the guns arranged like the Nelson and Richelieu with all of the big guns in the front and secondary batteries either gone, replaced with AA weapons, or use SAM sites.
>>65516893You're a dumb faggot retard
>>65550787>a gun from pre WW1 hits about as hard as a gun from WW2.Do they hit as hard as an 18-inch gun though?
>>65550787>Honestly, if the battleship was still relevant after WW2they were still relevant for action up in the mists of the Arctic until 1961/2 at which time the A-6 Intruder and Blackburn Buccaneer entered service; their computerised all-weather attack capability finally put the nail in the coffin of the battleships>future design would probably have the guns arranged like the Nelson and Richelieu with all of the big guns in the front and secondary batteries either gone, replaced with AA weapons, or use SAM sitesI don't think so; aft-firing weapons would have been important for BBs to continue duelling Sverdlovs while racing to get out of air attack range before daybreak. but yes SAM conversions were proposed, and in fact the early SAM launchers were designed to drop into the gunpits of the US Navy's twin 5" turrets without having to enlarge the hulland they might have had even more SAMs: one proposal for the Iowa-class battlecarrier even has a SAM launcher mounted on the forecastle forward of Turret Abut not all of the 5"ers would be dumped I believe. even into the 80s radar-aimed gun AA was quite effective, since there were many legacy subsonic bombers still in use by both NATO and Warpact nations
>>65551070They shoot faster, and the Yamatos aren't 100% armored against battleship grade guns across the whole ship (superstructure, rangefinders, etc). Enough hits will still cripple a ship even if it doesn't pen the citadel, and WW1 guns can still be fit with more advanced AP shells and better propellants to improve performance compared to WW1 levels.
>>65551971There's that and the Yamato and Musashi probably would've run out of shells before they would've been able to sink all the RN battleships.
>>65525682>the american annual trade deficit of 1 000 billion dollars.The thing about a trade debt is that the way they calculate it is by adding up the sale value of goods being imported. So if an iPhone is worth $900, that counts as a $900 import.The problem is, though that iPhone sells for $900, only $500 goes back to China, where it was made. The rest goes to Apple. More importantly, another container full of iPhones went from China to India, and that was counted as an Indian import, even though a lot of the money obtained when it sells in India also goes back to Apple in the US.
>>65550787>24ish battleships varying from dogshit to above average is going to do a lot better than 2-3 really good heavy battleships.It's not 24 BBs, the peak is about 15. Those 15 range in speed between 21-23 knots (outlier in the KGV) compared to 27 knots for the yamato. Not to mention " a gun from pre WW1 hits about as hard as a gun from WW2." isn't really telling the story of 15-inch vs. 18-inch in terms of range and penetration. The British will still win, but they're going to lose 10 ships in the process.
>>65516882The Yamato could signglehandedly win any war.
>>65557924Can yamato open the strait tough?
>>65550787>super Yamato with the big double fuck off gunsmuh dick
>>65557926If it can make it there.
>>65550787what if the yamato has the wave motion gun?
