What is the point of using a red dot type optic on an M14? Was it just personal preference and the dude just liked his M14 but didn't need a scope? Also do you think Shughart and Gordon knew it was certain death or was there hope for survival when they went boots on the ground?
>>65526126Le ebin updoots on reddit
>>65526126Quick, accurate engagements. The ranges invlolved didnt necessitate a powered optic.
>>65526126As they were crashing he his pause on his life menu, swapped optics because it was going to be urban fighting and he knew the red dot would increase the recoil and lower damage but at the distances he was fighting it wouldn't make a difference and a scope would be inefficient at acquiring targets quickly up close. He made the right call desu. As to what he thought? MC syndrome and felt invincible.
>>65526126They were sniping from a helicopter, where magnified optics are barely usable. You can still see this today with maritime interdiction units like those in the coastguard will often just have an eotech on their M107s.
if you're shooting within 200m you dont need magnification. especially if you're on a helo
>>65526276>He made the right call desu.He died anon.
>>65526126>What is the point of using a red dot type optic on an M14?An 8-ish MOA red dot optic is more than good enough for an M14, the majority of M14 rifles don't group much better than that anyway.M14s simply aren't accurate rifles. At least not by modern standards, they aren't anywhere near as accurate as popular fuddlore claims they are.And unlike a magnified optic, a red dot won't handicap a shooter in a close range fight.So in this application a good red dot optic is just an improvement over the factory iron sights, at least in >90% likely combat scenarios.
>>65526407
>>65526322>You can still see this today with maritime interdiction unitsor this absolutely legendhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8o2HgI7c9k
>>65526392If you’re shooting within 200m, you don’t really need a full size battle rifle at all.
>>65526564Big boolet big dmg
>>65526448Berry vased
They probably thought gunshots and dead people would scare the Somalis away. But 3rd worlders don't care about their lives. Violence is their everyday life.
>>65527861the militiamen were using the locals as human shields, pushing in big crowds at gunpoint ahead of the fighters to make them harder to see and hit
My question is what is OP doing with an M14 (never mind optic) in urban CQB
>>65527874MC syndrome
>>65526564Unironically he did. The Somalis were drugged up on all sorts of shit, and he’d knock them down in single shots.
>>65527874Providing sniper support from a little bird. Is /k/ really so brown now that they’ve never watched Black Hawk Down? Or know anything about the battle of Mogadishu?
>>65526126a red dot is so much better than irons it's unreal. Also he was in a helicopter, he probably wanted 1X and the ability to keep both eyes open so he could track targets easier and it's not like they were 300 yards away shooting guns out of people's hands or trying to pop heads like a police sniper. they were relatively close and shooting into crowds
>>65526420he had a national match m14, not a basic bitch one>>65526564muh big bullet muh barrier penetration it's not like there was that much of a downside. he was in a helicopter, he wasn't going into buildings, walking around or getting into a truck
>>65527874how fucking zoomer are you?he was one of 2 guys in a helicopter providing overwatch fire for the rangers on the ground when they were trying to arrest some black guy
>>65527930>crashing out this much
>>65527930this happened in like 1993 you retarded zoomer
>>65527930>zionsomalia is on a trade route that goes past suez canal, retard
>>65527942There was nothing "main character" about it. Even with the two crashes, there were still 16 helicopters in the air, 90 rangers less than a mile away at the target building and a convoy of humvees 3 miles away at the airport. There was no particular reason for the two delta guys to assume they would not get some form of support or pickup, so getting put down to check the crashsite was a reasonable calculated risk.
>>65527951are you that butthurt old retard from yesterday who thinks that videogames invented the concept of categorization?>have been to Somalia and 12 other African countriesvisiting family?
>>65527951you really are melting down there, yuro thirdie no gunz zoomer tranny
>>65527951>this fucking madwow bud you've tasted 13 flavors of nigger shithole, what a world weary mouth you have
>>65527970>all that strung together fag talkwhatever you say, niggerfaggot
>>65527968>>i-it was real in my mind delusiondo you think the battle or mogandishu was fictional? Randy won a medal of honor
>>65527980concession accepted
Started reading the UN's involvement in this part of the Somali Civil War. So far, got past p. 45 of J.G.S. Drysdale's Whatever Happened to Somalia, where aid organizations had to hire Somali warbands using technicals to protect the convoys carrying aid supplies from warbands that want to steal from these convoys.Anywhere where I can find stories about these aid convoys being attacked from the perspective of the aid workers from that time (and maybe Somalis who willingly spoke about that)?
>>65528060>stories about these aid convoysTry the U.K. based newspapers and journals, magazines from the early 1990s
>>65528070I see. Thanks.
>>65527916Shugart and Gordon both deployed from Super Six Two. A third Delta, Halling would have deployed with them but he had taken control of one of the M134s after the crew chief was hit.
>>65527930>Never seen BHDYou shouldn't be allowed to post.
>>65526407We all die, few get talked about after
>>65528094>it's worse there's a video gameLooks like the NoVa obese cubicle dwellers are up
>>65526126The one all be all is s hooting fundamentals. Every optic has its con. Scopes typically score more kills because they help see. Red dots might look like they are fading out but they have a strong presence in certain situations. I have a red dot on my home defense weapon. I'm buying scopes for the range rifles. If I know all my threats and I can plan and manage the engagements I'm probably takin the red dot. If I don't know what's out there I'd rather have a scope. That red dot does not help you see hiding threats and it' mutually assisting anything hiding. In "black Hawk down" those threats were not hiding, and spawning out of a rioting mob.The real stories is sicker than the movies. At times those guys were killing people like a lawn mower going over grass.
>>65527917"the call of duty" opinion has arrived
>>65528094I knew an 80 year old guy who played this game. I was in my 20s at the times. We were working security together
>>65528135lel
>>65528134how is that a call of duty opinion? They were shooting at what was probably point blank range from a helicopter at moving africans and they didn't really give a shit about shooting the noncombatant africans
>>65528142It goes back to shooting fundamentals. I can't say a red dot is better because I shoot the same results with any sight system.
>>65528140Then the guy starts talking about 100 blowjobs at the right massage places
>>65528383I've shot the same rifle with cuckhorns, peep sights and a red dot. The groups with the red dot were both tighter and I could aim way faster (and they're better in low light and they are easier to both eyes open). I absolutely shoot tighter groups with red dots than with irons and I have an astigmatism. The only advantage iron sights have is that red dots usually aren't quick adjust for KD target shooting dialing
Reminder, had DC given a green light for specter gunship then the events of black hawk down would have been different.
>>65528418>had DC given a green lightwhy didn't they? good men died for almost nothing
>>65528555It was the Clinton administration and they were all fucking cucks.
>>65526126did he have m80? fancy 168/175 grain? how many mags did he carry ? (4?) and how many mags or ammo on hand would you try to go if you went back in time.
>>65528418How do you use a spectre in an environment that has so many non-hostiles? Even the 20mm seems risky to use let alone the other guns.
>>65528578>It was the Clinton administration and they were all fucking cucks.kinda like Obama during Benghazi?
>>65528644>non-hostiles?>somalis>non hostile
I had an aimpoint 9000 on my national match M1A for a little while to test it. It worked quite well up to 350 yards. For quick and accurate shots I think there is a lot of merit to the optic. Also, what was the guy with all the deleted posts on about?
>>65528644>non-hostileThey were all hostile and should have been turned into red paste to rescue the downed helis.
>>65528555>>65528418It was a rare case of Americans not wanting to cause mass civilian casualties for basically no reason
>>65528654Exactly.
>>65528555the conflict had dragged on for too long, too much resource expenditure, too high profile rolling tanks through town and having spectres overhead ready to level city blocks to get a few jamokes that might lead them to aidid.
>>65528656>>65528660I agree but they were gunshy to use gunships after the whole Cobra raid and to smear a bunch of randos like before.
>>65528674AKA worthless politicians deciding to handicap the military for muh optics.
>>65528657>I had an aimpoint 9000 on my national match M1AI am going to put a red dot on my bula dmr when they ever come back in stock>deleted posts on aboutwondering this too
>>65528716>>65528657You can see them here. Just some faggot have a schizoid episode.https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/65526126/what-is-the-point-of-using-a-red-dot-type-optic
>>65528660>They were all hostile and should have been turned into red pasteCould have stopped here. Did not need to send Americans in on the ground. >UN wants to arrest AididThe answer has always been to just kill these people.
>>65528654that was also clinton>>65528644>africans>non hostile>>65528657it was a fucking zoom zoom who thinks Blackhawk down never happened and that we're talking about a movie or vidya or something also>chin weld I hate when the optics and irons are at different heights
>>65530184>chin weldIt wasn't a problem with an aimpoint, but I use a Bradley cheek riser with my vortex viper.
According to tue book, he was using an aimpoint because fast engagements at relatively close ramge im the chopper necessitated a non magnified optic.
>>65527919>he had a national match m14, not a basic bitch oneHm, yes. So when loaded with plain mil-spec ball ammo it's a 4MOA rifle rather than a 7MOA rifle.Wow, much impress, very accuracy.Doesn't fucking matter in the grand scheme of things.
>>65530286blackhawk down was based on real events, retard. Randy Shughart was a real guy who was given the medal of honor and he used a national match m14 with a reddot >>65528593you can see an Alice pouch on his hip, those hold 2 mags. idk if he had a second pouch, a saw pouch (those hold 5 M14 mags) a different way to store ammo or if he had like a net on the helicopter he was using as a basket or something
>>65527916Scary. A great movie and two of my personal heroes.
>>65530286robert, your schizoid formatting is giving you away again, go back to shilling in the chink thread instead
>>65528578>>65528418I worked with a guy who would always say “I was a Clinton SEAL.”
>>65526126>What is the point of using a red dot type optic on an M14? Was it just personal preference and the dude just liked his M14 but didn't need a scope?Four factors1. Mogadishu was close quarters and magnified optics were of only limited value.2. Shughart was originally there to provide sniper cover from overhead and need an optic that he could rapidly acquire and engage targets with.3. The rest of Task Force Ranger deployed in country with Aimpoint 2000, 3000, and 5000 sights on their M16s and there was obviously a desire to maintain at least some commonality of equipment so in case something broke, you could just swap it out quickly rather than needing to have replacements shipped all the way from the US.4. In 1993, the variety of available optics for M14s was still extremely limited, particularly mid-ranged magnified sights. ACOGs had only just entered production in 1989, Colt 4x20s were Vietnam-vintage and were intended for use on the M16 (meaning that they required extensive modification in order to simply mount on an M14, nevermind zeroing). Aimpoints on the other hand were readily available (you could already acquire them on the civilian market in 1993) and could be easily attached using a rail mount.>Also do you think Shughart and Gordon knew it was certain death or was there hope for survival when they went boots on the ground?They were taking a measured risk. If it had been absolute suicide, Garrison would never have cleared them to be inserted. After insertion, they were initially covered from the air by Super 62's miniguns (there was actually a third sniper, Brad Halling, who had to remain onboard after one of the crew chiefs was wounded). A few minutes later, Super 62 was itself hit by an RPG that practically obliterated half of the cockpit (taking off Halling's leg in the process) and the pilots barely managed to crash land it back at the airport.
>>65530227more like 2 MOA rifle. National match rifle and this is Delta, they arent using ball ammunition for a 308 for a guy sniping from a helicopter, likely was using 118LR.
>>65528657Holy BASED>>65528418>the Spectre cope againSpectres are forbidden from flying daylight missions. One had been lost just two years earlier during the Battle of Khafji after the crew ignored orders to RTB before dawn and were promptly wasted by a random Iraqi with an SA-7. The overwhelming majority of Americans to die in the battle were killed in the first two hours when it was still broad daylight so having a Spectre in-country wouldn't have helped them because it would have been kept grounded until nightfall.Moreover, 10th Mountain already had a squadron of AH-1 Cobras (which ARE permitted to fly daylight missions) in-country and these were used to great effect later in the battle. The problem was that 10th Mountain wasn't informed of the raid in advance, so their Cobras were all sitting on their helipads, unfueled and unarmed.>>65528555A little something called "Operation Michigan" earlier that summer where the 10th Mountain received erroneous intelligence that Aidid was hosting a meeting of his top advisors and proceeded to resort to massive overkill by having a squadron of Cobras shoot up the meeting, killing dozens of people. It later turned out to be a peace summit that conveniently happened to be made up almost entirely of Aidid's opponents in the Habar Gidir clan who were trying to force him to step down.One would almost suspect that Aidid had actually been the source of the leak and suckered the Americans into killing all of his competition and enraging Somalis to unite behind him.tl;dr Operation Restore Hope was a (/k/ino) shitshow from start to finish>>65528654>kinda like Obama during Benghazi?Worse actually. Benghazi was a combination of Washington having no fucking clue what was going on + bureaucratic sluggishness + probable glownigger shit that never made the papers. SECDEF Les Aspin's incompetence in the weeks leading up to the Battle of Mogadishu is absolutely staggering on the other hand.
>>65530310that's a cosplayer...
>>65526126Keeps a clear sight picture at all time on a moving vehicle.
>>65528391>why is the fuck are you bring cuck terminology into this? OKAY FAGGOT!And It's just as easy to nail a target with iron sights
>>65528657If it were for hold over the red dot would completely blind out the target. If you know the right holds at distance yes, you can have some fun.
>>65531024calling buckhorns cuckhorns is an old meme since literally everyone hates cuckhorns >it's just as easy to nail a target with iron sightsI have a .22 that originally had cuckhorns, now it has a peep sight with a LQD red dot and I shoot tighter groups with the red dot, can shoot way faster with the red dot because requiring the sights and target is faster and it's better for low light and you can keep both eyes open so it's better for situational awareness. do you not own guns? If I need to shoot quickly while aiming I'd take a red dot over irons >>65531028idk how far they were shooting. point blank for a 20 inch AR is like 300 meters. IDK what the normal battle zero for an M14 is. it's easier to hold over with a red dot than with irons because the red dot doesn't have a front post blocking your vision
>>65528094I went to USMA with Steele's son and he had never seen it. We made sure to put it on during a long haul bus ride to knox.
>>65528661>No reasonAnyone hit would have been a militia or someone likely to be shot or starved by a militia.
so is there any M14 or clone that can match an AR-10 accuracy at the same price point?
>>65528391Red dots are faster and better in low light, but if you can't shoot tighter groups with irons on an M1/M1a/M14 style rifle then you're just a bad shot.
>>65531972you're a no gunz. Even applesneed requires you to shoot a higher score with a red dot to get a patch than with irons because red dots group better. you don't have to deal with sight alignment shit
>>65526126Retard here. Why didn’t they grab the survivor and leave the body? I get never leave a man behind and whatever but they added two more bodies for nothing.
>>65528134Post your guns.
>>65532073That was probably the plan, but they got overrun.
>>65532073>Why didn’t they grab the survivor and leave the body?wut does this even mean
>>65532096There were people in the downed chopper other than Durant.
>>65532094No they had time on the ground for the pilot to hide. They could’ve gotten him out for sure. Staying for the bodies cost them their lives.The pilot lived anyway so it was honestly a complete waste of resources.
>>65531921No.
>>65528135Based old head gamer. I was 12 whem BHD came out, played on a government issued thinkpad in the 160th SOAR shops at HAAF. Good times.
>>65532124>No they had time on the ground for the pilot to hide....but a chronic lack of helicopters coming to pick them up, which was the crucial factor in their deaths. This is why their initial requests to be put down were denied repeatedly, because the TOC didn't want to risk a third airframe. I guess their plan was to create breathing room at the crash site for super 62 to pick them, or to move Durant to another street that was less hot, but its a moot point because they were unable to successfully do either.
>>65532124>>65532137According to Durant, all of the crew of Super 64 actually survived the initial crash, but they were also severely injured. Durant was moved because he was the least hurt and Gordon and Shughart didn't have time to move the others before being set upon by the Somalis. They also supposedly tried to make use of 64's M134 miniguns but they were unusuable due to the loss of power (M134s use electric motors and require either an external power source or a battery to operate). The film shows the other crew to be unconscious/dead because defenseless men being savagely beaten to death would have been a little too much for the audience to handle (even if it's the bad guys doing it).
>>65531080>do you own guns? nobody says things in cuck you cock drooler you literally cant stop talking and sucking dicks when you talk I have (2) armories one personal other is government and I already stopped you in my first post which you fail to contradict
>>65533847Dont engage with buckhorn autist
>>65533914>take regular old iron sights>put decorative? wings on the side>some sperg on a mongolian basketweaving forum makes it his entire personality to seethe over themyou're a fukken clown lmao
>>65533847Why do you type like a fag?
>>65533932you're a no gunz homo, probably yuropean. cuckhorns are widely hated because they block your sight picture. it doesn't help you aim like an express v would and it covers up way more than if the top of the sight was flat with a u or v notch. they absolutely suck for shooting at paper because you can't see what you're shooting at. there are hundreds of articles written by boomers seething about them. that's why half of the nuRuglins come with peep sights >>65533951they/them is polish
>>65533958We're you diagnosed as a child or later in life? Holy shit what a retard lol
>>65533966do you're parents know you're a retarded faggot?
>>65533837>They also supposedly tried to make use of 64's M134 miniguns but they were unusuableif only
>>65526126that guy had no idea what time he was getting out the field. can't see irons in the dark and no matter what color the target, the dot stands out. you could do worse. curious that he does not use the hasty sling though
>>65535131It wouldn't matter/help for how close they were shooting
>>65526269Is a red dot not a powered optic?
>>65535959he means power as in a 4 power scope or 2 to 6 power scope, not power as in electric
>>65531028Yeah at longer ranges I usually turn down the dot so it becomes transparent, though with a 2 MOA dot I'd be holding the dot a head or so above the target for upper torso hits.
>>65526276What a thrill...
>>65531003This
>>65535483yes, i'm sure he just skimmed over the rules of combat agreed upon by all parties which surely included engagement distances and possibly lunch breaks
the entire plan for gothic serpent is so weird to me. let me get this straight: they send multiple helos to land/deploy troops on the roof of the hotel so they can storm down the building and secure the targets... and then they take them down to street level outside where a convoy of humvees is waiting to transport them back to base...? why didn't they just take them back up to the roof and fly away on helos?
>>65538211there was no safe way to put them on helos; prisoners would get lit the fuck up by the skinnies or fall out of them if they were put on the little birds, and there was no place big or safe enough to land the black hawks around the target building.
>>65538298they couldn't land the black hawks on the roof? i'm guessing the roof wasn't flat but had stuff sticking out all over it?
>>65538302I only managed to acquire a pic of the target building because i don't have a reddit account. it doesn't like it's got a proper roof for landing and loading up the prisoners.https://www.reddit.com/r/JSOCarchive/comments/1hvd1a8/photos_of_the_target_building_where_the_initial/
>>65535959huh?
>>65538302Helicopters are heavy, and somali buildings are not very sturdy. That aside there was likely no room anyway
>>65537556he was in a moving helicopter that was providing overwatch to a ranger team that was supposed to be arresting some black and then leaving the city in the middle of a city. I doubt they were planning on shooting over 300 yards considering they were in a city. A red dot is fine for inside 300 yards, especially when you're in a helicopter and it would be too hard to track targets with a magnified optic >>65538302I wouldn't trust an african roof to hold up a blackhawk
Would a budget PSA .308 AR-10 out shoot a springield NM m1a?
>>65541454Yeah, actually
>>65537088Fuck off Hop.
I want ithttps://youtu.be/n6zfTYQ09Rs
>>65541454I don't think so
>>65526407You can do everything right and still lose.
>>65541454>>65541588>>65542398I've never seen a NM M1A get through an entire high power match without a stoppage
>>65543386>high power match without a stoppagewhat issues do they have?
>>65526407Making the right call doesn't always mean surviving, war is full of dice rolls.
>>65526435>that faceShe knows she's going to hell for saying that but if she doesn't she's going to prison.
>>65543386It is interesting how finicky they are. My NM started having malfunctions after I put it in a synthetic stock, and the scope has to be mounted to a certain position otherwise I'll get FTEs.
>>65545983what sort of accuracy do you get?
>>65545673idk, but the guy always gets failures to feed, failure to eject and the mag falling out. the only issues I've ever had with my HBAR-A2 was the sight flipping half way to the other peep, me not inserting the mag all the way and me trying to chamber a round on the chamber flag>>65526407he died because he went down to secure the one black hawk that had an injured crew, not because he picked a red dot
>>65530318One thing I always questioned about this scene>I'll mark the target with a strobe!Why not mark your own position?
>>65527921You can say nigger here, faggot.
>>65549726
>>65528094Fuck this rah rah usa usa usa movie. Yankee commanders fucked up, forcing Malaysian UN soldiers to save their arse. We had a mechanised battalion equipped only with thin skinned German made APCs unsuited for urban warfare. Yet we still assaulted the city, despite the convoy being 2 miles long and having no element of surprise. We killed 200-300 Somalis for the cost of 1 dead and 7 wounded. The movie made it as if the Yanks did all the fighting.
>>65550067Make your own movie then.
>>65530356>They were taking a measured risk. If it had been absolute suicide, Garrison would never have cleared them to be inserted. After insertion, they were initially covered from the air by Super 62's miniguns (there was actually a third sniper, Brad Halling, who had to remain onboard after one of the crew chiefs was wounded). A few minutes later, Super 62 was itself hit by an RPG that practically obliterated half of the cockpit (taking off Halling's leg in the process) and the pilots barely managed to crash land it back at the airport.Brad Halling has actually talked about it on a podcast. There was a significant amount of time before Garrison would allow them to be inserted because he knew how hopeless it was. Shugart and Gordon knew exactly what they were getting into and exactly how hopeless it was.
>>65549570they were in somalia, not niger, you retarded indian (dot not feather)
>>65549726>>65550067damn eastern yurothirdie slav is mad as fuck and third world as fuck
>>65526126Are you under the impression that red dots are obsolete past like 50 yards or something? Also in an urban environment a red dot on a battle rifle is a great idea, I don't know what you're on about.
