Anons that have had to shoot in self defense and/or have experience in law enforcement (if /k/ even has them), what’s your experience using 9mm or 45? Is 9mm actually sufficient or is the extra 11.5mm’s of 45 actually superior?Would one be better off carrying a 69 caliber musket loaded with buck and ball?
Yeah
In the time I was on the PD (93-03), we had P228’s with old school Hydra Shoks. One guy emptied his into a guy on PCP and he lived and still fought (but his balls were blown off). Then we had another shooting where bad guy gets hit upper torso with one round and still fought (escaped mental patient who killed his parents). Then we switched to the P229 in .40 with 180 gr. Gold Dots and had two shootings where each officer shot the bad guy once center mass and he dropped and was pronounced on the scene. Totally unscientific but I still love .40.
>>65537159I don't know what guns I used....only the sound it makes as it takes a life.
>>65537423DA/SA in .40 is an extremely based pairing and I'm tired of retards who only watch youtube videos of other people shooting trying to complain that its not.The full steel frame really does a lot to temper the recoil, I love how it shoots out of a Sig. CZ-75s in .40 are also surprisingly comfy too.
>>65537423That’s very interesting information. Thank you for sharing, friend. I’ll have to look into .40 s&w now I suppose. Do you think +p 9mm would’ve made any difference? I assume bullet design has come a long way since then, right?
>>65537159Ya know a lot of people liked Paul Harrell for his videos, his wealth of knowledge, his sense of humor, and his passion for firearms. Those are all perfectly acceptable reasons and I would agree with all of them. However, I liked Paul Harrell because he killed people. I'm not even entirely convinced they were all justified either.
>>65537159Both .45 and 9mm are sufficient enough to put someone down. Nothing will drop a man or woman faster than putting 4 projectiles of lead wrapped in copper through the pelvic floor. Thats only if they're charging at you with a knife or melee weapon though. Put as many as you can in their chest. Anyways, here's my self-defense story. I was using ball ammo .45 ACP (lol ball ammo) and my gf was literall seconds away from being raped.I was following my, now ex, gf home one night on my motorcycle at like, 2AM. She pulled over to get some gas and I went around the back to piss on the back of the building while she filled up her car. I guess the dindus who I shot thought that I had drove through the parking lot and drove off, leaving just her at this dimly lit gas station.I heard her scream and rushed back around the building on foot to find a nigger on the driver side and another leaning in through the open passenger door. Dude on the driver side door had his hands in her waistband and violently yanking her pants down while the nigger leaning in through the passenger window had his hand over her mouth and was pushing her head into the passenger seat with his free hand holding her arm down so his buddy could rape her. I got there just in time because as I came around the gas pump, Mr. Nigger rapist had turned towards me, his erect dick pointing at me, and my gfs thong in his hand. Idk if he went to reach for his gun (Investigation showed that he had a pistol on him) or if he was trying to pull his pants back up, but I fired 3 shots. One hit him just above his groin, basically turning his cock and balls in confetti, while another hit him in the bladder. The last shot hit him in the stomach (I may or may not have been intentionally aiming for spots that would make him live in constant pain. But I didn't tell the cops or investigators that lmao)My gf managed to get loose from the other guy who tried to run but I threatened to shoot him if he moved. (cont)
>>65537493Sig P22x guns are aluminum frames thoughbeit>inb4 but what about the legionsCOPSURP p22x pistols are alumin frames
>>65537159357 sig has best reports by far thats why its there still
>>65537613what is with this .357 sig obsessed nigga lately
>>65537594 I guess the nigger assistant rapist didn't want to take a round so he froze and put his hands up while on his back. At this point, Nigger rapist #1's adrenaline is wearing off and he's feeling everything slowly. Dude went from whimpering and soft "M-MMfuck man.." to full blow agonizing screams. Guy was screaming and trying to talk at the same time. I could make out things like "AAAAAAAAAH THAT MOTHER FUCKA SHOT ME IN THE DICK FAAH AH AH AH!!!". I think his screaming was causing more and more pain too.My gf is hysterical right now and having a full blow meltdown (I mean..who could blame her? She was 19 and was almost gang raped by two middle aged niggers who were waiting in the bushes at a gas station.) and sobbing uncontrollably. I tried to get her to call 911 but she was completely in another world at that point. Thank god I had my air pods in, because I yelled "SIRI CALL 911!" like 4 times. Long story short: Cops arrived, put the nig nogs and me in hand cuffs. Nigger rapist 1 was life flighted to a hospital due to blood loss and the fact that my .45 had turned his cock and balls into sloppy joe. My gf could barely speak to the cops due to being freaked out, so there was no way to get information out of her. Nig rapist 1's fucking WIFE and family tried to sue me for medical bills and some other shit but it was thrown out once the investigation found that the entire thing was caught on the CCTV cameras at the pumps; including the part where they snuck out of some shrubs and snuck up to my oblivious gf and tried to gag her before shoving her onto her back over the center console. I ended up having to pay 20k for a lawyer. Make sure you kill them so they can't pull a "WHITEY IS RACIST! I DINDU NUFFIN! THAT WHITE BITCH LAYIN! WHITE GIRL TEARS, 25 YEARS PLAYA!"
>>65537613You are a meme
>>65537594>>65537629Well done anon
>>65537159>reddit frog
>>65537629All niggers must hang.
>>65537159I believe 9mm is on paper ballistically and scientifically sufficient and should perform well enough as a defense cartridge, but due to a bug in the matrix and a gypsy curse, performs like doodoo compared to higher and even lower power cartridges causing the an anomaly of countless druggies and grandmas walking off magdumps of 9mm.
>>65537566>However, I liked Paul Harrell because he killed peoplehttps://youtu.be/43eqKhpu5w0?is=xKk5b1-12CE9ojqD
>>65537159What if nessler ball invent early during Napoleonic Wars?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX_y16pt_Cg
>>65541136Boy, lead ball look beautiful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X55KoHGqod8
>>65537423>One guy emptied his into a guy on PCP and he lived and still fought (but his balls were blown off)Who would have thought a testicle shot wasn't going to be a stopping shot?
>>65537159For me, the Kulikov bullet was used in the Russian Model 1843 LĂĽttich carbine (modified Brunswick rifles).
>>65537566>>65541130Paul Harrel shot people in self defense THREE fucking times (that we know of) I like the guy's videos, but the chances of getting into one DGU in your life is astronomically slim. Three (again, that we know of) is unheard of for someone just minding their own business, even an avid outdoorsman.Nobody really looks into this aspect of Paul and I feel like some crazy shit could be uncovered if you started pulling the right threads.
>>65537159Best case argument for 45 shows no difference shot for shot, but that 9mm has more shots in the gun and you can shoot them faster and/or more accurately. If you want to be a harsher critic you can point to how almost all 45 defensive loads either open, but fail to meet minimum pentration standards, or fail to open. And the few that do open and meet the minimum penetration standard do so just barely.
>>65542360The time he killed a guy driving in his car because the guy denied his demands that he fuck Paul's wife wasn't self defense.
>>65542360From what I'm aware of, his lifestyle had an elevated risk compared to the average city dwelling American.Plus, he was clearly carrying around a bunch of bottled rage and could be kind of an asshole when something bothered him, so he'd probably reach for violence the second it was justifiable where most other people would try to avoid it.The incidents I'm aware of were:Home defense shotgun shooting, and you know... he had enough money to have tons of stuff worth stealing (just his guns would be a good score for most crooks) and lived out in the sticks where the cops may not show for a while. Burglar gambled and lost.Famous case of the guy at some innawoods campout shit getting too friendly with him and his wife and repeatedly trying to drive through their camp in his truck in an aggressive manner. Went to court for this one but was vindicated, even the guy's buddy's testimony basically said the dude went off the fucking rails and it was understandable for Paul to put him down out of fear of immediate deadly harm to people.The time he ran into a bunch of strangers innawoods at night, and they started to encircle him and he immediately shot the leader in the chest and they scattered. Cops never even spoke to him about it, honestly almost certainly justified as it would be a fluke for them not to be criminals in the middle of running some shit they'd be ready to kill him to keep quiet, but it shows that he didn't try to run or talk his way out of it for a second, straight to killing.Most people don't go out at night exposing themselves to dangerous strangers nearly so much. I don't believe any of his killings were in the wrong, but the guy was living life on "looking for trouble" mode.
>>65543147This. We all know there are grow ops and shit on public land and homeless encampments all over. Legally you have every right to that space as much or moreso than the people there. Purposefully going in though is basically asking for it and low grade vigilantism. Not saying it isn’t based. Just probably more trouble than it’s worth and a very risky endeavor.
>>655371596 years army infantry with two deployments but no pistol involved shootings other than an Afghan trying to kill a dog. 5 years in Border Patrol. 3 years as a Sheriffs Deputy. I’ve personally been involved in two officer involved shootings and know dozens of LEOs that have been in more.My personal experience was a known gang member with an armed robbery warrant that crashed his vehicle after an extended high speed chase and came out firing. The entire department damn near all lit him up at once with primarily 9mm and 5.56. The second was a mentally ill man that had just stabbed his roommate and when we arrived on scene he charged out of the front door and into his driveway screaming for us to shoot him in an obvious suicide by cop. We still had safe distance so we tried to get him to drop the weapon and de escalate but when two more cruisers pulled in he became more agitated and rushed at us. I fired twice aiming for the pelvis and my partner domed him with 9mm so he dropped like a sack of shit.Personally I think 9mm is usually enough but requires mildly better shot placement. Yes we have all seen the videos of a drugged up or mentally ill person taking half a magazine center mass. I don’t think .45 or anything else you’re realistically going to carry is a particularly big needle mover. You have moderate sized pistol rounds and rifle/shotgun rounds and if you’re in a situation where you have the convenience to choose you should always grab the long gun and if you have to use a pistol just keep firing until they drop. The minutia of most pistol ballistics is very irrelevant ime.
>>65542368>you want to be a harsher critic you can point to how almost all 45 defensive loads either open, but fail to meet minimum pentration standards, or fail to open.You're lying lmao
>>65543147>I don't believe any of his killings were in the wrong, but the guy was living life on "looking for trouble" mode.Seems to me it was the trouble that shouldve been trying to avoid *him*
>>65543191>9mm is usually enough but requires mildly better shot placement.This is it right here. 9s only have worse performance because they're the low-hanging fruit that every cheap lazy person who doesn't practice is using these days.If you're using basically ANYTHING else, you're more likely to actually be putting effort in, even if it's just because you're using your pet round that you've made part of your autistic identity. And if you're putting the effort in, handguns end up being >90% the same in a defensive shooting.
>>65542360He was also investigated for murder, outside of the already mentioned self defense shootings. He mentions it in his "rebuttal" to Caleb or whatever that fat alcoholics name is.
>>65542360>>65543147he was also kinda obsessed with the ballistics of bullets on the human bodyit makes him an excellent resource for self defense shooting, ammo & gun choice, & methods to carrying thoughi dont think anyone else has as much experience shooting people in self defense successfully as he did and it makes him a very unique resourcei think one strategy for carry he used that is overlooked is the flashlight, he always carried a flashlight separate from his gun because of an incident(i think) where he thought someone was breaking into his car in the parking lot of a restaurant at night and he drew his pistol walking up to his car & shined a light on the person but realized upon seeing him that he wasnt breaking in, he just happened to drop his keys and they landed around the back of paul's car & he didnt have a light so he was just reaching around trying to find themif he had a weapon mounted light and he did that, he wouldve had a gun pointed at an innocent person and been in the wrong & escalated a simple misunderstanding into a life or death situation where the guy who dropped his keys wouldve been justified to draw his own gun and to shoot paul
>>65543263I mean the numbers are in when it comes to self defense calibers and the result was that handgun caliber really doesn’t seem to matter. All handgun rounds are pretty anemic and survivable but also usually good enough in volume compared to rifles and shotguns unless you’re trying to be a retard and whataboutism .22 or some shit. Stick with the intermediate pistol cartridges and you’re fine so long as you can send three or more. Everything else is just being extra “just in case” from a statistical standpoint.
>>65543295maybe a hot take but i think 22lr is even fine for self defense, i think their main issue is just reliability. just the nature of rimfire, how small it is, how filthy it is, and it being a shouldered catridge just makes it unreliable for an autoloader & double stacking the ammoi think they are fine in a revolver, you just get another issue where the DA hammer on a 22lr revolver has to be very heavy for reliability reasons and its easy for that to throw off your aim
>>65543191That’s very insightful. Thanks anon. I gotta get some 5.56 stocked up for home defense and in case of a potential societal collapse. That’s something I just haven’t bothered with.Anyway- as someone clearly with experience, I gotta ask. I’ve got 3 guns I’m thinking about ccw. 5 shot 38 special, single stack 9, and a Glock 17. If it were you personally, which would you recommend if any? I kinda feel like with the Glock, I’d always know it was there and may get in the way, but 17 rounds sounds nice if I ever were to need it. Single stack 9 is comfy and I forget it’s there (just need a holster). Never carried the 38, but I wonder if it would be enough if I ever found myself in a doodoo situation.
>>65537613>why its there stilli dont think i have ever once seen 357 sig guns sold anywhee or seen the ammo on the shelfits a dead caliber you have to buy online & have limited choices with now and no new mags are being made
>>65543314Can't you use 40 mags with 357 sig? Heck, your most likely option for a gun in 357 sig is a 40 with a barrel swap.>>65543307.22 will do the job just fine as long as you're either a) dealing with someone who will give up upon realizing they've been shot, or b) good enough to get a central nervous system hit. As you said, rimfire reliability is your biggest problem so revolvers are preferred.People talk about the NAA mini revolvers being just a curiosity but there's cases on record of people using them to shoot attackers and invaders dead.
>>65543307I think it works okay in certain conditions. The Nightstalker used one for a reason. Most self defense shootings are very close range and putting a .22 into someone’s brain is probably fine if you are inside 10 feet and end up but if you are mag dumping into someone’s torso…not so much. It’s a very good weapon for assassination honestly. Self defense I’m just more skeptical. I would not recommend it as a first choice for that reason as well as all of the known malfunctions you mentioned. I just don’t see the point when .38, .357, 9mm, etc. are all widely available, more reliable, and really don’t have any major drawbacks by comparison.
>>65543191>>65543263another factor is basically every situation where someone is panicked and just firing blind, either due to lack of training or situation being a shitshow that escalated in half a second out of nowhere, is going to be a pistol shootingif someone has time to pull out a long gun, they have the time to mentally prepare themselves to use it, to calm themselves down, and aim properlygranted long guns are much easier to aim, are higher caliber, and hit way harder but just the fact people are mentally prepared when using it compared to panicked pistol shootings it also skews the stats
>>65543311Horses for courses anon. I use a Glock on duty for very obvious reasons but if you’re ccing obviously a single stack is lower profile and usually enough. You’re unlikely to get into a prolonged gun fight. You’re probably either putting 9 or whatever you need into an assailant and they drop or your sending 9 their way and getting the fuck out of dodge while their heads are down. If someone breaks into your house and the Glock 17 is there I can’t fathom why you wouldn’t pick that over the single stack.
>>65543341This tracks. In the car chase shooting I was driving so my partner had a few minutes to basically just sit there with his hands on the rifle and wait for the inevitable. I just had to hop out and when he came out started firing until he went down. I shot 3 times. My partner shot once. I’d describe my fire as more suppressing even though I hit him twice while my partners was center mass. The forensics report showed he was hit more than a dozen times and a third of those were from rifles despite way more pistol rounds fired.
>>65543348I appreciate the input again. I think I’ll continue trying to find a holster for the single stack then, and keep the 17 as a truck or bedside gun.As a civilian do you think it’d be pointless to have something like an AR or shotgun as a truck gun?
>>65543563>Truck gun>Pointless for a civilianFor most people…yeah. It depends a lot on where you live though. If you’re out in rural areas there are a dozen different occasions one can be useful. I live in the suburbs and work in a small city with a heavy tourism flow that turns into the boonies pretty fast. I keep a Zpap with a folder under the rear seat of my truck. I have so far only used it to dispatch a deer hit by a car. If any of the half dozen regulars that I arrest on a consistent basis and make death threats decide to get froggy while I’m off duty I’m not going to be outgunned. There is a risk of it being broken into and stolen though. Thats not a huge issue in my area though. Most vehicle break ins are addicts looking for tools they can pawn. A lot of “stolen” guns are also sold illegally or from a friend/relatives home so I’m not particularly concerned about the risk.
>>65543157>>65543147>>65543291His father and brother being lifelong Oregon cops probably helped quite a bit in his self-defense adventures.
>>65543746It meant he knew how the game is played; it's not like they were able to keep him from spending years in court having to defend himself in a shooting where every surviving witness was on his side.
>>65537493Not a steel frame but my favorite gun ive ever owned was a taurus pt101. Felt nice to shoot and just fingerfuck, wish i never sold it and got it nickel plated or something. One day ill find another, maybe even just a pt100, wish the beretta 96 had the frame lever instead of slide lest id get that
>>65543604That’s really interesting to hear about all that. I apologize- I feel like a bot, but again; thank you for your input.>There is a risk of it being broken into and stolen thoughYeah, that’d be my biggest fear keeping a gun in my truck honestly. I thank God, I’ve never had my truck broken into though. I also live out in a pretty rural area. I don’t think I could do the city.
>>65543191>>65543348Have you modified your Glock? What optic are you using?
>>65537159Prussian M1809/31 look cool but Austrian one is interesting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1kDi7NVqyI
>>65544132Suck the murdering pigs cock harder why don’t you?
>>65537159>>65541255Grape shot
>>65543191Sounds like your partner is a better shot. Fucking spray and pray.
>Made by Henry Nock, 1800 (c).>This flintlock rifled carbine was a private purchase, as it was not a standard-issue weapon for the Army. Nock, who was appointed as King George III’s gunmaker in 1804, incorporated rifling—grooves within the barrel—to impart spin on the projectile. This mechanism enhances both the range and the accuracy of the weapon.
>>65548704
>>65548710
>>65537920This. Fuck spongebitch too.
>>65537159Carry this one.https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/baker-rifle-why-it-was-so-accurate-deadly-and-effective/
Fun fact: C.S M1862 Richmond rifle was own by John Earl Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6TAfxOwtRA
>>65537159Patriots get 2 hats
>>65537159Homo frogs confirm
>>65537159The only guaranteed stopping shot is a CNS shot, which can be achieved by any number of rounds, including either 9mm or .45. Anything else is subject to the motivation and fitness of the target.
