>Key Inefficiencies & Design Limitations of European crossbows:>Prod Material & Inertia: Early European crossbows used dynamic composite bows (wood, horn, sinew), but the late medieval period shifted heavily to steel prods. While steel was weather-resistant, durable, and suited for mass production, steel limbs are exceptionally heavy. Their high mass means significant energy is wasted accelerating the limbs themselves rather than propelling the bolt. Making the bow longer to increase draw length was impractical due to extreme rotational inertia at the tips, locking European designs into very short power strokes (typically 5–6 inches / 130–160 mm).>The Revolving Nut Trigger: The European mechanism relied on a simple rotating nut restrained directly by a long sear lever. Holding hundreds of pounds directly against the sear created heavy friction, trigger resistance, and wear. Organic materials like antler and bone were often preferred over metal because their lighter weight reduced the rotational inertia required to flick clear of the released string.>Contrast with Chinese crossbows>Ancient and medieval Chinese crossbows employed standardized, three-piece cast-bronze mechanisms. These internal linkages acted as force-multipliers, slashing the hold-weight at the sear down to roughly one-sixth of the total draw weight. This eliminated wear and allowed delicate triggers to control long-drawing, highly efficient composite war bows mounted on stocks, allowed powerful bows being used without the need of complex spanning mechanismsIs Todd correct?:https://youtu.be/T65cNwY2wTc
Implessive
>>65541310Yes, but not because chink crossbows are some kind of wunderwaffe, rather because Euro crossbows are very inefficient. Chink triggers are p gud overall though.
>>65541310did China's crossbows keep them from being conquered by the Mongols?did Europe's crossbows keep them from being conquered by the Mongols?
>yet another chinkshill spamming the board with the exact same shitWhy can't you bugmen at least be original about this garbage.
What is this AI shovelslop?Fuck off with this bullshit, Ping-Pong.
>>65541738>>65541729It's the summary from the video made by Todd and Matt, are they chink shills?
>>65541749Buy an ad, fagort.
>>65542689Pretty sure the chinkshills have now started posting this just as an excuse to 'covertly' bump their shit threads that have been ignored.
>>65541310The strongest medieval crossbows were superior to the strongest man portable Chinese crossbows in power, but the reason that these bows were uncommon actually reveals something important: these super wide crossbows are more powerful, but they require wider formations, which means less shots per area of the enemy formation, and exponentially less resistance to being flattened by a charge. A more spread out formation of crossbowmen cannot concentrate fire as easily or turn as easily, meaning not only will they be obliterated even by light infantry, but they're also vulnerable to being "rolled up" by enemy missile troops packed tighter together.I suspect that the Chinese heavy crossbow was at it's best discouraging mounted skirmish tactics, not determined advances.
>>65541310Before 1300s? Yes, China practically led crossbow development as they were the only ones using them lol.After 1300s? No. Those spanner pulled Europenis crossbows were the shit .In fact by the 1300 &1400s the Changs were abandoning crossbows altogether. A major impetus for their use in China (Militias & Conscripts needing to participate in ranged warfare) disappeared around this time as armies were now mostly manned by professional fighters who were all trained in archery, not to mention cavalry being more of a priority during the Yuan & Ming Periods. Plus handcannons took over the "easy to use ranged weapons," niche from Mid Imperial China onwards.
>>65541749
>>65541310Impleassive. Vely impleassivulu technologu with no applications to present life.
>>65542708>>65542703Watch the video, having 1000lbs+ draweights on crossbows doesn't mean that much in reality because of the short power stroke and the metal limbs literally wasting energy. At most you're just matching a 180lbs longbow/warbow
>>65541749Literally who?
it's tod of tod's workshop, tod cutler here
>>65542719I don't know why you quoted me, nothing in your post responds to mine. I didn't say "European crossbows were proportionally stronger than Chinese ones to their difference in draw weight" I just said, to my knowledge, the highest power European man portable crossbows were more powerful in impact forces than the upper end of personal crossbows used by the Chinese. More didn't mean infinitely or exponentially or anything else. There were, like in the picture I provided, composite crossbows which, in addition to their over 1000 pound draw weights, also have wider, more efficient bow design and at least marginally longer power strokes than the traditional European steel limbed crossbows that were infinitely more common on the battlefield. They were used in niche military roles, and for hunting, to my understanding.Some of the reasons these huge bows were not common in Europe are revealing of the weaknesses of all wide-limbed crossbows, and *part* of why Europeans tended towards more compact crossbows.
how many more times does the fag have to make the same exact "actually European crossbows sucked" video? does this really draw views or is his channel this dead and starved for content?
>>65542798Maybe It's because he recently made a chink triple bow siege crossbow: https://youtu.be/FiJs_M3Qt5khttps://www.youtube.com/watch?https://youtu.be/SNAtWxxd8Zc
>>65542834sort of made one, I think the real ones were way bigger they said in the video. like 3 times bigger or something
How long till chinese shills are just gonna be posting constant daily threads about humanoid robots flying on the backs of drones wielding oversized crossbows destroying aircraft carriers
>>65541725>did China's crossbows keep them from being conquered by the Mongols?For centuries at a time, yes.>did Europe's crossbows keep them from being conquered by the Mongols?Not at any point.Any more dumb questions?
>>65542711>This is what really happeningDamn, couldn't even get a proper english speaker to write your propagandaslop anymore.>Agenda 2030Oh, okay, it's from some schizo conspiracytard site.
Why is it always like this with chinkshits? It can never be a normal heavy crossbow, it has to be better than the whitety! Look, ancient chinese built this massive ship, totally real, better than european!
>>65542884Who's got the Han history copypasta.
>>65542884China has always been a loser face-based culture that cares more about performative shit than actual results, that's why they fail despite everything.
>>65542884normally I'd just sit and laugh at Chang, but historically the manchu composite bows could exceed 225 pounds in draw strength so that's just implessive. These guys were carrying miniature scorpions on horseback and suffering
>>65542927>but historically the manchu composite bows could exceed 225 pounds in draw strengthlol, sure thing bro
>>65542850>>did China's crossbows keep them from being conquered by the Mongols?>For centuries at a time, yes.>>did Europe's crossbows keep them from being conquered by the Mongols?>Not at any point.lol, lmao even
>>65542931i think it was 240 actually, and they had some mutant chinese fuckers who could actually fire them
>>65541310Slightly tangential, but its often asserted that the Chinese invented the crossbow and it diffused to Europe, but thats clearly bullshit because >European crossbows use a completely different trigger design>No cultures between Europe and China used crossbows in the time period the technology could have been spread>Muslims during the crusades described crossbows as "Frankish bows" implying their first exposure to crossbows was through contact with Europeans>The Romans and Greeks figured out the concept of "horizontally mounted bow realeased by a trigger mechanism" as early as the Chinese, and made both crew served siege weapons based on the concept as well as individual weapons like the gastraphetes, they were just limited to siege use. >there is a depiction of a hunting crossbow from close to end of the Western Roman Empire that looks a lot like a medieval crossbowTL;DR, the crossbow was invented independently in Europe and China, round about the same time, before 500 BC, the Chinese just went all in on the crossbow as an infantry weapon much earlier
OP's just a faggot in general, you can tell that from as early as the clickbait subject line with RANDOM text in BOLD>BREAKING NEWS tier shit
>>65543087uh huh, sure thing. totally true and reasonable to claim that.
>>65543127>but its often asserted that the Chinese invented the crossbow and it diffused to Europe,Nobody is saying that , and Chinese crossbows have different design. If they defused into Europe you would have Chinese style crossbows there.
>>65541749So it's AI bullshit, thanks for confirming.Fuck off, buy an add, faglord.
>>65541310Is he talking about Chinese bows or Manchu bows? There’s a hell of a lot of difference between the two. Manchu bows are arguably among the best ever made. They were objectively some of the most powerful, with enough draw weight to penetrate armor. Manchu warfare was essentially a more generalized form of the nomadic warfare practiced by the peoples of the steppe, but with the important addition of heavy infantry.
Chinese Crossbows were a cool mass produced weapon but overall were inferior, because the whole point of them was that they were a regular bow with a trigger.
>>65543127>>65543481Its believed that the European design stems from around 400 BC with the Greek Gastraphetes. It makes sense that civilizations decent with math would come to similar simple designs to improve man powered missile weapons.
>>65543808>the whole point of them was that they were a regular bow with a trigger.Which is what made them better than european crossbows due to longer power strokes, thus not needing to be 1000lbs+ just to match a 150-180lbs warbow. And the european rolling nut trigger also sucked compared to the chinese trigger system, which are the main points made by Todd in the video
>>65543764It's both, manchu bows were literally just a further evolution of the composite bows already widespread in China and eurasia at that time.
Piss off chinkshill.
>>65543832>Which is what made them better than european crossbowsthe oldest European crossbows were literally the same thing. maybe it actually sucked and roller nuts and compact bows didn't.
>>65543872And then european crossbows were made with short steel bows and had way shorter powertrokes, which also made them way less efficient, thus needed way heavier poundages just to match proper warbows
>>65541310>This eliminated wear and allowed delicate triggers to control long-drawing, highly efficient composite war bows mounted on stocks, allowed powerful bows being used without the need of complex spanning mechanismsSure but how well does that hold up on the march, in weather and battle mud?
>>65543087>240lb draw weightThe Mongols had some wild heavy bows that were fired laying down with it strapped on like a snowboard, using the whole body to draw. What they didn't do was fire it from the saddle. Pic related - world's record known longbow draw at 200lbs
>>65542834>>65542841Compared to what he could be building it's laughably small. I mean it makes sense to build one as a proof of concept but does anyone really want to see him target practice with that contraption for endless videos?
>>65544020The point of the thing seems to be that you can rig up a siege weapon from some 4x4s and a bunch of crossbow prods.Also yes, it was interesting to see how much mechanical accuracy they could get out of the system.
>>65541725With those they crossbows defeated the Huns, forcing them to migrate westwards and led to the collapse of the Roman Empire...
>>65541310>make an efficient but somewhat fragile crossbow which still has relatively low energy imparted to the projectile>make an extremely rugged but relatively inefficient design so it can withstand bullshit high draw weights and getting banged around by conscripts and mercs while delivering enough energy to the projectile that it can penetrate some of the lighter armors in common use in Europe which were all more resilient than armors used elsewhereI'm not certain why anybody was surprised. If you want really cheap, high efficiency, relatively high kinetic energy, and huge numbers you use footbows which the Chinks did use. But the problem with those is that you can't aim for shit so they mostly got used as half-assed artillery. European fullbows and crossbows were used as extremely close range in hopes of penetrating armor to some degree.
>>65544085My 23 and Me shows Britain. Curious.
>>65543907so you don't actually have a point and just repeat the dumb premise from the OP, implessive
>>65541310I'm getting sick of these chinese propaganda threads. Who fucking cares about crossbows when they did NOTHING with gunpowder. If The Chinese was so fucking ARROGANT and PRIDEFUL about themselves and actually focus on explading tech and trade with the rest of the world, then world would be speaking Chinese right now. But they didn't. They because the World's Cum Dumpster, seeing how EVERYONE raped the shit out of them.
>>65544040>With those they crossbows defeated the Hunsthey never defeated any steppe nomads in any way except by spreading their legs and prostrating before them>forcing them to migrate westwardsthat didn't happen either>and led to the collapse of the Roman Empire...huns did jack shit to the Romans
I like Todd but I refuse to watch any of his videos that feature Matt.
>Rapechink breaks down and resorts to his old spammingChrist do your job jannies and clean away this low quality spam thread.
>>65543832Wider bows come with their own downsides in mass combat as an anon pointed out earlier.
>>65544732Gibs pulled 210 on a video using a draw measure, not actually casting an arrow with it and it wasn't attested and recorded by a third party like Stretton's shot did.>and I think someone really has been confirmed to pull a 240 longbow in the last few years.you're so full of shit trying to justify the blatant chink lies it's hilarious. drink some gutter oil, subhuman.
J A P A N E S EG R A N D F A T H E R
>>65545172yeah bro malnourished rice eating chinks totally pulled 40lbs above the absolute highest record ever made by a person who trains full time and has all the modern nutritional and scientific benefits on his side. this is totally reasonable and sensible because some subhuman bugman wrote this down sometime.
>>65545172>Mods, delete his retardation as this idiot is just lowering the - already not too high - standards of discourse on this site below any acceptable levels.
>>65545335>The world snatch record achieved by the malnourished Asian: 225kglay off the bat soup chang, you're delusional.>>>65545335>Btw, the fact that the populations in Asia were historically _huge_ proves that their nutrition was finebreeding like rats doesn't make bugs any more individually capable. see the performance of your fellow subhumans, the jeets, as an example.>But it was an _entirely_ different story in the pastyeah, in the past they offered their wives to the invader instead.how about you stop typing like a seething reddit refugee and just stop lying through your teeth to cover up blatant, clear and obvious chinksect falsehood which is just one of many others that are equally full of shit parts of fake history that their culturally bankrupt and hollow nation manufactures like plastic copies to cope with reality.
>>65545350comparing a Georgian to a filthy chinksect manlet is exactly what i'd expect from a bugman shill that cannot help but double up on his gutter oil fever inspired lies.here's a tip: there's a reason chinese women would rather whore themeselves to dogs than sleep with the pathetic emasculated garbage that are chink "men".
>>65545363>Societies were historically made of well-to-do "elites" and of "plebs" you know.and chink elites were weaker, sicker and more pathetic than foreign plebs. they still are.so how about you actually try to defend the idiotic lie about chinks drawing bows beyond any human capacity instead of seething at me over and over like a whipped redditor dog?
>>65545367>moooods, please save me from rightful bullying and let me shill in peace>i need something to distract me while my girlfriend is riding foreigner cock in the next room.
>>65545378>i-i'm not being bullied, you stupid i-idiot>how dare you question and make fun of my ridiculous propaganda>also, mods save me from this meanie, waaah
>>65545390yeah, saving me by doing absolutely nothing, lmao. what a pathetic little bug you are. how about you crawl back to the reddit hole you came from and cry to your fellow chinkcels about how oppressed and misjudged you are for being whipped and mocked as a whiny emasculated liar and a shill?
>>65545399>>oh no, I didn't even notice that any responses to my hallucinations are being magically deleted!!i didn't. did you? rapechink spams his copy pasted posts everywhere but they aren't a response to anything, just his cope about being a quarter Japanese.>I am not being opressed BY YOU by any stretch of imagination kek.then why do you keep crying and howling like a whipped dog?>You are repetitive and boring rn tho.says the guy who hasn't said anything except "if you don't take my asinine written statement with no evidence at face value you're dumb and mean". how about you type something other than womanly seethe so i have something to respond to in between mocking you and slapping my dick across your sister's face?
>>65541725>did Europe's crossbows keep them from being conquered by the Mongols?apparently yes, since the mongols never conquered it
>>65545426>Russia, Ukraine and the Baltic's aren't part of Europe?no, not at all. next question?
>>65545445>To summarize: non-European bows and crossbows were technologically more advancedhow were they more advanced when the earliest European crossbows were literally the same? not to mention how mounting a regular bow sideways is as primitive as it gets.>Also, the current world snatch record isn't is being held by a British but by a Georgian so it's entirely possible that some non-Europeans were stronger than the strongest Europeans in the past.Georgians are European though. idk why you're so hung up on this, this doesn't make your chink claims any less idiotic and asinine, just like everything else they claim.>Also the current Chess Champion is a jeet so your hallucinations about the inevitable inferiority of "jeets" are entirely unfunded.lmao, don't redeem the delfection to chess from physical sports, saar!>projectionwhen was i crying to the mods or calling you an idiot for failing to accept my made-up and fallacious retardation?
>>65545426>Posts a picture of the baltics not, in fact, being occupied by mongols
>>65545550>it was a jeetat least this explains the weird seethe and nitpicking about British.don't redeem the shitting street, saar!
>>65545550>you are obstinate if you don't gulp down spotty, unsubstantiated and highly improbable chinese claimsat least you switched from calling me stupid for this now.
>>65545582why are you shilling for chinks now, saar? isn't this a bit too low even for a cow shit eating walking disease habitat?
>>65545594well there needs to be some credit to grant it, do you have anything to show for it, or is it more deflections to snatch and chess instead?>You don't have to lie about this. Or deny anything.and you do, apparently.so mr dalit, is sucking up to chink forgeries really worth it to seethe at the British a little bit more?
>>65545608why are you deflecting to self bow efficiency now, saar? is the cow urine getting to your head, or is this just a consequence of the diarrhea drowning all the moisture from your single dead brain cell?>Call me a jeet one more time and will forget how a British gentelman acts btw.this may be a revelation to you but British gentlemen do not, in fact, pick up food with the same unwashed hand they wipe with.
>>65545622answer me, saar. was it worth sucking up to chink fake history to seethe at the British? did you think it even worked?>Some paki stealing a fat under-class girlfriend of yours (for few hours at least) may explain your seething.lmao, the butthurt about chinks and jeets being universally repulsive to women must run deep for you to start projecting now.
>>65545642it was pretty funny that a shitstained dalit fashioned himself a gentleman, in any case. instead of crying about how bad and mean i am to you how about some introspection. do you think you'll be reincarnated into an even more pathetic and vile creature next time because you sold the last remnants of your dignity to shill for chinks?
>>65545663>>65545642>brown person shilling for other brown people>gets called out>instantly starts talking about "white trash"kek seething brownoid.
>>65545663>Good riddance; you don't have anything to offer to your women anyway.i guess introspection was a bit too much to bear so you decided to cope with more projection, huh? do you think seething would help you get back at the British more?
>>65545680>Dude, the British aristocracy felt at home in literal India; surrounded by "jeets" from every sideyes, and? do you think they were sharing mud huts and shitting streets with you?>It's you, underclass imbeciles who are seething at immigrants stealing your GF's.lmao, the best thing a jeet like you can steal is a wallet. even the most syphilitic whore will wince and puke before touching you, much like most of your fellow shitskins.>Ouch; imagine a woman choosing a brown immigrant over you.i really can't imagine that.
>>65545698can't remove a memory that isn't there, much like the fantasy of chink eunuchs breaking the human strength records.
>>65545686>Dude, the British aristocracy felt at home in literal India; surrounded by "jeets" from every sidePeople would actually write this.
>>65541310I wonder if European crossbows being shit made firearms more appealing, and that is why Europeans took to gun development so hard compared to the rest of the world.If a Chinese crossbow was that significantly better than a European one, then it was also that much more better than an early firelance and handgonne. So there'd be less reason to develop the latter into something truly outstanding like a wheellock musket.
>>65545753The most rapid adaptation of gunpowder in Europe was in matters of artillery, not small arms, with massive bombards becoming fairly widely used during the 14th century. With how advanced and well developed European siege warfare was, it's doubtful that your theory is accurate.
>Uhh you see people were retarded for milienia, because they wore armour, why would everyone wear something that prevents you from getting up when you fall and doesn't even protecting you from anything>Uhh you see early modern firearms were bad, people only used them because they were easy to use and made a lot of noiseSo it's time for crossbows, eh?
Why leave the thread up, just delete the whole thing rather than only gutting half the posting.
>>65545404>1/4 nip>this somehow causes him to lose his shitWait until he learns he's not actual Chinese since genghis khan got very freaky during his time of conquering Asia
>>65546033i'm ready to settle for rangebanning all of third world from this website.
>>65546074I've wanted this for 10 years already
>>65544107Why do the stupidest fucking people like yourself post on this board?
>>65545933The Mongols used gunpowder artillery next to bows for centuries.Small arms and artillery development rarely actually intersects.
Stop bumping your shit thread.
>>65546761
>>65544040m8 even the jeets took care of the Huns fairly quickly. They were really only a threat to Europe for two generations.
>>65546908nice ai slop, saar
>>65544981>you're so full of shit trying to justify the blatant chink lies it's hilarious. drink some gutter oil, subhuman.Retard, I was saying that an *englishman* beat stretton (I could not give a shit what Guinness says) and that I believe an *englishman* pulled a 240 bow to full draw. You will *NEVER* have as low an opinion of the Han as I do, not if you start studying now and finish the day you die.Any worlds strongest man contender could fucking demolish the record within a year of seriously training in bow pulling. We haven't come anywhere close to theoretical limits.
>>65546407>STILL malding and crying>STILL trying to shillthis shitskin is determined
>>65544981To be clear I wasn't even the retard you were originally talking to so I have no idea why my post was caught in the dragnet.
>>65546413>The Mongols used gunpowder artilleryfireworks and firecrackers aren't artillery.>Small arms and artillery development rarely actually intersects.lol, lmao even.
>>65547839>that I believe an *englishman* pulled a 240 bow to full drawwell i believe you can only breathe while sucking cocks>Any worlds strongest man contender could fucking demolish the record within a year of seriously training in bow pulling.sure thing bro, this totally would happen. never mind actual strongmen struggling to pull 120lb bows because the muscle groups are totally different and the technique isn't there.
>>65547849>never mind actual strongmen struggling to pull 120lb bowsHey nigger I said a WSM contender within a year of serious practice not "some big guy" fucking around with a bow for the first time in his life. Contender obviously meaning, y'know, someone in the top 100 you fucking faggot.
>>65547860>not "some big guy"they're all "some big guys" when it comes to archery. you're talking out of your ass making excuses for retarded made-up headcannon you constructed.
>>65547862>Compares amateurs to peak athletes>Compares a year of training to picking up a bow for the first time >"Your headcannon"Nigger there is no lifting or pulling exercise that a world strongest man competitor would not set the record in after a year's practice. Every lifting exercise that they have begun practicing, they have set the record in. You're the retard sitting here saying Mark Stretton wouldn't be able to pull a heavier bow if he was six inches taller and had a hundred pounds of extra muscle.
>>65547879Gibbs and Stretton are peak athletes, by any definition. >Nigger there is no lifting or pulling exercise that a world strongest man competitor would not set the record in after a year's practice.you completely made this up.Care to post any evidence for that mystical 240lb draw pull you keep bringing up btw? That'd be more fruitful than screeching about how if your grandma had wheels it'd be a bycicle and if a big guy trained for a year he'd totally own it with the bow.
>>65547883Gibbs is like five foot eight you massive fucking retard.
>>65549232>n-nu uhis there a reason you choose to avoid addressing your idiotic claims and insisting on peddling your bullshit hypotheticals over and over? is this a humiliation fetish? does your shitskin ass consider wasting a bit of my time a win? what's your game here.
>>65541310I mean both Todd and Matt know more about the topic than any pseud here so I don't see the point of this thread
>>65541310Is he comparing things made centuries apart again?
I
>>65545753An arquebus was invented by Ottomans anyway, their bows and archery completely overmatched anything Europe had.
>>65552955>An arquebus was invented by Ottomans anywayno it wasn't, turks copied all their gunpowder tech from Europe.>their bows and archery completely overmatched anything Europe had.Byzantines used composite bows all the time during the middle ahes.
>>65553020>ByzantinesTurkey aren't Europe, despite all Erdogan says.
>>65553072>Turkey aren't EuropeByzantine Empire encompassed most of the balkan peninsula as well. more importantly, turkey isn't Europe because turks aren't Europeans, not because they're technically in asia.
How long are you gonna drip-bump this shit chinkprop thread to keep it alive for
>>65553089>Byzantine Empire encompassed most of the balkan peninsula as well.So did Turkey, they also had the same capital.
>>65553099I've been noticing that kind of bullshit becoming increasingly common in the last year or so, wonder where it came from and why
>>65547846What kind of retard are you that you aren't aware about Mongol siege warfare on /k/?
>>65541755>>65542711>>65542922>>65544099>>65545244Absolutely
>>65545355>>65545499>>65545533>>65545588>>65545599Beautiful
>>65545933>>65546033>>65547844>>65552955>>65553099The sino tears
>>65553311>>65553333must flow
>>65553361not as big of a retard as one that thinks he can just wish mongol cannons into existence to cope with European artillery inventions.
>>65545753That doesn't really make sense. It's not like European crossbows were peashooters and Chinese crossbows were railguns by comparison. European designs were slightly more inefficient, but it didn't stop them from punching holes through the most protective armour in the world. Maybe you could say it contributed in some tiny, insignificant way by virtue of being harder to manufacture, but the crossbow and handgonne crafts were entirely separate with only the tiniest bit of overlap, so it'd have almost zero effect on the guild/apprenticeship model of Europe. Ultimately, the vastly numerically superior Chinese produced a few good designs, but stifled iteration in favour of ease-of-production and stagnated, while the numerically inferior Europeans lagged behind initially, but rapidly overtook them because they took the opposite route by constantly iterating inefficiently and utilising their human capital.
