just WHAT the fuck went wrong?
it'd be easier to list what went right
>>65546873for the Brits? pretty much everything
Italy was like the funny henchman sidekick of ww2, who are endearing due to incompetence as they repeatedly accidentality ruin the villains plans through their antics.
>>65546885kek
>>65546861>600 armoured vehicles>331 aircraft>just WHAT the fuck went wrong?
>>65546861Defeat in detail No AT weapons Notice the Brits have tanks and the Italians have "armoured vehicles"Matilda II was practically immune from the front But of course also the serious morale, logistical, communication, and recon issues...Just a massive fuck up
I think the Italian military exhaustation in Ethiopia and Spain leading up to WW2 is underappreciated. And then in WW2 they need to cover the entire Mediterranean? They just didn't have the industry for their level of military commitment
>>65547990Skill issue.
>>65546861Their logistics could support two kind of strategies. Plan A was to concentrate what good troops and equipment they had into a blitzkrieg style spearhead with their colonial militia units as a reserve.Plan B was to do a human wave style assault with all their colonial units with obsolete equipment keeping their good troops and equipment in reserve.They decided instead to do both plans at once and the clusterfuck that ensued collapsed their logistics network making them all easy pickings.
>>65547997>Matilda II was practically immune from the frontMathilda was immune from any side.>>65547999They also just made plain bad decisions. The Italian navy was basically asleep for most of 1940. Woke up for the Greek campaign in '41, lost three modern heavy cruisers in an embarrassing fashion, then went to sleep again for the rest of the war. Leaving basically all the work to submarines and torpedo boats.
>>65546861Too much of this
>1940>trusting British MoD numbersFake and sodomite posting from a failing empire. The attack on Sidi Barrani was easily repulsed. Forward units of the 10th army are counter-attacking and taking many (mostly Australian) prisoners. The truth that British media doesn't want you to see.Follow intel gloria M for more.
>>65548017The Australians were notoriously cowardly and weaklings in North Africa, being prisoners is something they're good at!
>>65548009>Leaving basically all the work to submarinesI don't think I ever saw the italian submarine fleet discussed online, be it youtube, /k/, or whatnot. I assume it wasn't that relevant or interesting anyway.
>>65548024>I don't think I ever saw the italian submarine fleetExactly!
>>65548017*background snickering*
>>65548024They get overshadowed by the Germans. Still they operated in the Atlantic, Med and even Far East.
>>65548024That's because the only time they were relevant was during an american war crime that got swept under the rug by allied propaganda. See comandante cappellini
>>65548035Thats how they getcha
>>65546861It can always be much worse.
>>65546861Italians in WW2 were just outright retarded.Their standard issue LMG had about the same effective ROF as a semi-auto rifle.
>>65548102>>65546861Why are you faggots carefully cropping away all useful facts from the infoboxes?
>>65548024>I don't think I ever saw the italian submarine fleet discussed online, be it youtube, /k/, or whatnot. I assume it wasn't that relevant or interesting anyway.The italian submarine fleet was pretty boring. They didn't have any sort of cool special submarine with the exception of sort-of the Cagni class, which had fuckloads of torpedos to hunt merchants with.
>>65546861A huge issue that isn't mentioned when it comes to Italy isn't incompetence, fatigue or anything else that gets mentioned it is that the average Italian didn't want to fight the British or later on the Americans. They had no reason to hate them or even be there at all, when it came to Americans many of them had relatives who were Americans themselves. Italy's attempts to create a Nationalist motivation was mostly ineffective due them not really being especially xenophobic, being the inheritors of Rome doesn't lend itself towards being insecure about your nation's heritage. They weren't big enough jerks to be effective against someone they had no reason to fight.
>>65548139Maybe they should have stood up to the douche then
>>65547999They already performed like shit in Spain, Franco was glad to be rid of them.
>>65548139So what, the average Joe of any army had no involvement in politics and was not consulted about their opinion. This excuse is only ever made for the Italians.
>>65548167i mean, the only way 36k beats 150k is if one side reeeally doesn't want to fight. i don't think many Italians, from the generals down to the grunts, really wanted to die in north africa for mussolini/hitler.
>>65548185It's not the only way, it's just a compounding factor. It's not like it was two groups just lined up against each other in a field
>>65548107>useful factsLike the names of random Italian and Greek commanders nobody ever heard of prior?
>>65548167>>65548185The average soldier is one thing, they can be motivated through various means. In the Italian case it was the majority of their command structure; one can point to any number of reforms they could have made however if the Generals themselves aren't interested in winning then there really isn't anything you can do about it.>the average Joe of any army had no involvement in politics and was not consulted about their opinionThe average Brit or American was highly engaged in political realities, in the UKs case it was a battle for survival while post Pearl Harbor US troops were highly motivated. Your average Soviet had a guy with a gun who made them quite aware of political issues, you could almost say it was that guys job. The average Italian knew there was absolutely no reason for their nation to be involved at all.>>65548142Apathy affects affairs both foreign and domestic.
>>65548185>>65548139Rommel himself went on record to state that the Italian soldier wasn't the issue. He pretty quickly came to the conclusion that the Italian leadership and especially Italian equipment were at fault.>Franz recalls how, after an elite Bersaglieri position was overrun, their commander tearfully pleaded with Rommel: “Believe me, my men are not cowards.” And Rommel replied, “Who said anything about cowards? It’s your superiors in Rome who are to blame! Sending you into action with such miserable weapons.”The weapons he refers to here are vintage WW1 artillery pieces the Bersaglieri were equipped with as the only form of AT available.There are also multiple other accounts of his, which pretty much dispel the myth that Italians didn't want to fight. Italian soldiers fought as well as anyone else under the correct conditions. The issue was that in many situations they were expected to fight with outdated and subpar equipment. The armament projects of the 20s and 30s were mostly made with WW1 in mind. Which in Italy's case revolved entirely around fighting in the Alps. Hence, why their tanks were essentially lightly armored go-carts designed for mountain warfare. Yet when WW2 rolled around, they were expected to fight in wide-open terrain against superior British, Soviet, and American armor. Poland in 1939 was better prepared to fight WW2 than Italy was in 1940 and they still got rolled over in a month.>the only way 36k beats 150k is if one side reeeally doesn't want to fightNo you get numbers like that when one side is essentially incapable of even fighting the other. Which was the case for the Italians whenever any sort of British armor showed up during operation compass.
Rommel said that mass infantry in the desert is worthless, if youre not mechanized youre just a waste of logistics, the Italians showed this perfectly
>>65548139the italians and their society simply weren't built to fight. it was built for parades.lots of machismo and fantastical achievements but very little of the very boring grind of setting up and running the industries of war. whether they are martial or industrial. all their shit was basically hand made by craftsman and all of their leaders were picked because they met some political goal. no amount of textbook doctrine perfection or morale boosting jerkoff sessions is going to win with that. they were missing the very core that is needed to have a solid army for a modern conflict. your army isn't going to make it very far when you don't have your shit together enough to send food and kitchens down the line with them. not to mention not having enough mess kits.
>>65548365Tale as old as time, still everpresent today with all the shitholes that care more about performative bullshit than actually having an effective military machine.
>>65546861Logistics.
>>65548102Greece was basically chokepoints: the country. Had to move along roads around mountains and hills and the Greeks just sat and shot. Took the Germans to bring in heavy aviation to fix the situation. Italians didn't have that excuse for the desert.
>>65548308And yet the Italians got stomped in Greece despite them being 'designed around mountain warfare'. Don't try and pretend the Greeks were well-equipped either.
>>65548347>Rommel saidTo the trash it goes.
>>65546861Their supply lines were too long and underdeveloped and the Empire were able to build up a huge advantage in men and material. My grandfather (PBUH) fought in the desert and held the Italians in quite high regard. He said their gunners were better than ours and that their infantry *could* be very brave. His thesis was that Italians, culturally, are very susceptible to moral shock. His big takeaway from WW2 is that aside from the material aspects of war, the winner is often determined by culture. The Empire had South Africans, Australians, Ghurkas and Scots - cultures that produce very hardy and aggressive men. While England and Wales produces soldiers who are very similar, in their approach to war, to the German soldier. While the Italians have no such cultures.He argued the great strength of America is that it was an amalgamation of European cultures (primarily British and German) and that's why they generally did so well. Idk why I wrote all this. Kinda bored at work. Sorry.
>>65548417It was a good read anon, it's fine. Personal accounts are always great.
>>65548394Greeks are also complete fucking psychos, it'd be less painful to hit yourself in the nuts with a bat three times in a row than go into Greece
>>65548423Bongs didn't have much issue taking Greek clay (and the retardedly gave the Ionian Isles back and Greeks still seethe over the Marbles bought legally from the Ottomans).
>>65548365>the italians and their society simply weren't built to fight
>>65548102>>65547990They fucking deserve it for backstabbing Austria-Hungary allieshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racconigi_Bargain
>>65546861>Be you >Italian >Your life is composed of eating great food, drinking great wine, lounging about sipping coffee, chasing beautiful women surrounded by beautiful architecture in a beautiful climate >Get sent to a hellhole to fight some steelworker from a slum in liverpool for reasons unknown It was over before it even began.
>>65548023They're also to blame for the fall of Singapore. Instead of going to their positions they looted the city and got drunk.
>>65548547That happened afterJapan broke the line and, further, the Aussies in Malaya were militia - the regular army was in North Africa.
>>65548542>steelworker from a slum in liverpoolMore likely fighting Rashid from Delhi and Van Boorten from Cape Town and Bruce from Sydney.
>>65548365> very little of the very boring grind of setting up and running the industries Yes the famously bad italian industrial companies like Fiat, Pirrelli, Ferrari, Eni, Olivetti, Montedison etc. etc.
>>65548394Well, you see, it was also poorly designed.
>>65548547No, the reason Singapore fell was because the order and information on the attack that was due to arrive (via a civilian ship) was lost when a U-Boat sunk it in the Indian Ocean. Had that order arrived they would have defended it rather than surrendering (Indian units refused to surrender and were executed when captured). The forces in Singapore would have stopped the Japanese but the lack of info and belief they had huge armoured forces was false.
>>65548552I think he was specifically referring to the war industries of Fascist Italy. Even Fiat which was around back then was struggling when it came to mass production. They made some good planes but for every G. 55 they produced a German or British factory produced 100 Bf 109s or Spitfires.
>>65547990I just like it.
>>65548550>The REAL Australian army was hidden in North AfricaThe aussies own the fall of Singapore completely. They were absolutely were not in their assigned positions when the niptards crossed, which coincidentally was exactly was exactly where the austrards SHOULD have been.
>>65548107i put the battle name into the thread subject>>65548259i think he means the battle name
>>65548561I think he was referring to the character of Italians generally not being suited to industrial enterprise. Which is so nonsensical it's laughable, but exactly the kind of bullshit a bong, or American or German would come up with.
>>65548618>Actual seething pasta eater post
>>65548139>when it came to Americans many of them had relatives who were Americans themselvesdon't look up how many American GIs had German ancestry>>65548550>>65548556don't take the bait>>65546861>just WHAT the fuck went wrong?lack of water to boil their pasta>>65548308>He pretty quickly came to the conclusion that the Italian leadership and especially Italian equipment were at fault.the best statistic I ever heard to illustrate this: when war broke out in 1939, the Italian Air Force possessed roughly 3,300 aircraft, but only half were operational. about 600 of these were fighters, but 2/3rds of those were biplanes. only 1/4 of those fighters were modern monoplanes; equal numbers of roughly 70-80 each of Fiat Freccias and Macchi Saettas.a modernisation programme was underway, but it was crippled by corruption and Italian autism: the Italians claimed to have twice this number of combat aircraft, but the other half was entirely fictional. for an air force that had only about three thousand aircraft, nearly 40 different models were in development.the Italian Navy was a paragon of efficiency in comparison.
>>65548618>so nonsensical it's laughable>>65548552Fiat was in the doldrums around WW2, hopelessly outdated. the best Italian fighter of WW2, the Centauro, used a fucking German engine. that's for your Italian industry. indeed, so nonsensical it's laughable.
>>65548655>Fiat was in the doldrums around WW2Because Fascism is an inherently retarded system that breeds inefficiencies, not because of any deficiency from the Italian people.>>65548632I'm a bong you spacker
>>65548688<It's-a me, Giovanni Smithario from-a Yorkshire provincia
>>65548464My whole life I have heard, "Italians are lovers not fighters.""La Dolce Vita""The Italians have mastered the art of not caring too much."
>>65548017real italian irredentists have verified this as REAL and VINCERE
>>65546861>>65547990Before you go and start focusing on the fashion side of Fascism, make certain that you've done the requirements for Ubermensch.Without the Ubermensch, you're going to get your ass reamed by Greece.
>>65548699This is a gold mine
>>65548706VULTURIII
>>65548712SWOOPING upon the enemy!
>>65548024A few went to Japan and did uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
>>65548699https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkx1FbldYyM
>>65548716Our WINGS flap as ONE!
The Italians dropped their spaghetti
>>65548706Why is steve buscemi wearing a silly hat
>>65548720It's no wonder it took until the 1850's for Italy to exist.Tomatoes hadn't been invented until Christopher Colombo retrieved them from the Amerigos.It was only after this, that Italy was able to exist.
>>65548391The Greeks even went on the offensive.
>>65548068>See comandante cappelliniwill do
>>65546861>what went wrongItalians
>>65548730KekShe's just dehydrated.Apply some eyedrops and she plumps back up to the photo underneath. It's a before /after.
>>65548426>still seethe over the Marbles bought legally from the OttomansTurks do the same shit lolShould honestly just turn it into chalk. Not only the Greek shit but anything stored in European museums that's not native. That would teach those niggers a lesson in humility for giving shit to white man for preserving their own culture they didn't give a rats ass about.>>65548699Brodie with those feathers looks absolutely disgusting.
>>65548748Everything is temperamental to make look good with some silhouette of brain splatter jutting off to one side.I think M33 ITALCON is the funniest; Spaceballs egg dome with a feather duster taped to the side.In hindsight regret it has transparency tho. Should have an opaque white bg for better contrast against Dark Mode.
>>65546861Off the top of my head:- Inferior infantry equipment.- Inferior armor.- Lack of motorization.- Insufficient supplies which were used in Spain and Eritrea and never fully replenished.- The Regio Ejercito was in the middle of a structural reform that made divisions smaller.- Predictable lines of advance.- Poor communication.- Complete lack of infrastructure complicated logistics.- The theater commander died on a blue on blue and had to be hastily replaced.- Lack of initiative and speed (they just sat there, ceding the initiative to the Brits).- Poor morale.- The Regia Marina was particularly useless after Calabria, Cape Spada, Cape Passero and specially after Taranto.- The Greek campaign leeching resources and attention away didn't help either.- General overall incompetence at every level.I'm surely forgetting something, but you get the idea.
>>65548688The Italians as a culture are definitely more to blame than the institution of facism. The italians today are not fascist and still inefficient as hell
Italians like to wine, dine, and lounge around. They are a good-time people. They are fundamentally not cut out for war.
>>65548551British weaponization of Jeet biomass is something that is often overlooked by those who study the war. 2.5 million jeets in uniform by the wars end. The horror. The unspeakable horror.
>they had bad equipmentis that even true? I read the italian AT guns that were captured at Tobruk were then used against the Germans during the first seige of Tobrukso obviously those guns at least could do SOMETHINGalso a L3 can still be used against Universal carriers
>>65548814I thought biological warfare was against the Geneva convention.
>>65548788>The italians today are not fascist and still inefficient as hellWrong! But whatever, keep being led by dumb memes.
>>65548648>don't look up how many American GIs had German ancestryBig difference between someone who was Americanized several generations ago and someone whose brother moved to NYC in the 1920s-1930s not to mention there was no Italian version of the German American Bund in Madison Square Garden wearing Nazi uniforms. I remember my grandfather telling me he changed his name right after Pearl Harbor in a deliberate rejection of his German ancestry. German Americans willingly cast their connections to the 'old world' much more decisively than Italian Americans did, besides the fact that most had already done so generations ago they had alot more to be embarrassed about than a mouthy bald guy.
>>65546861>36000 men>120 guns>150000 men>1600 gunswtf how could they not arm their troops with enough rifles?
>>65548835Yeah, a guy called Eisenhower assisted crushed Germany. Gen. Waylands father was a German immigrant and Gen. Spaatz from a very German family ran the strategic bomber command.
>>65548823Everything from Sparvieros to Carcanos was inferior and outdated. Much like everyone that entered the war with bolt action rifles, the Regio Ejercito was in the middle of a modernization effort that got disrupted by the war. The Beretta M38 is the only thing they had which was qualitatively comparable to British Thompson guns.
>>65548843maybe their equipment was inferior but it's not like the Brits had Assault-Rifles, APCs and MBTs either; Rommels force was 50% Panzer IIs and yet he still managed to push the Brits back
>>65548854The Afrika Corps were also getting fucked until they started using the flak 88 in an AT role.People meme on British tanks but the Matilda II was an early war monster
>>65548826>Lamborghini and Ducati had to be saved by VolkswagenKeep coping, pasta bisexual
>>65548464She looks Dutch
>>65548854>but it's not like the Brits had Assault-RiflesEver heard of "the mad minute"? The Lee Enfield, ergonomically speaking, was far superior to any and all Carcanos. The beauty of it is that you can cycle the bolt without having to take your sight off the target. Also, in terms of heavy machine guns Bredas were simply atrocious.
>>65548876>The Afrika Corps were also getting fuckedlol what?the Afrika Korps arrived on 10 February – 12 March 1941by 10th April Axis forces had advanced hundres of miles and Tobruk was encircledalso brits relied on Light tanks and poorly armoured Cruiser tanks
>>65548909>muh mad minute
>>65548896Some kinda sex tourist most likely. Classier than ibiza flotsam but still.
>>65548917Right, right. I forget this is a vague and inconsequential thread meant to bloat the catalog so the Czar's fallings are more easily forgotten. Carry on, then.
>>65548909>>but it's not like the Brits had Assault-Rifles>duuuude Ever heard of "the mad minute" ?!?
>>65548928nigga please just stfuyou are the one who brings up nothing but pop-his-fudd-lore from reddit
>>65548909>in terms of heavy machine guns Bredas were simply atrociouthe Breda was fine, especially since Brits also had WW1-tier machine guns
>>65548909>individual rifles decide the fate of battle>during the combined arms tactics eraI'm sorry your country hasn't done anything cool since Compass, but chill out.
>>65548417South Africans hated the British and avoided fightinghttps://youtube.com/watch?v=b71kdhj27rk&list=PLNSNgGzaledivgjjFkhXw9y5RRvr7kNoe
>>65548542Italy was not a wealthy place back thenFor no reason at all thousands fled the the United States
>>65548842Not to mention it would have been somewhat awkward for FDR to order himself into a internment camp.
>>65549049If only
>>65548542yeah that's exactly why TENS OF MILLIONS of italians emigrated. the lucky ones found fortune in america, the rest toiled in squalor across northern europe and australia.
>>65548955Comparing a Breda 37 to a Vickers is asinine. One worked in all manner of adverse conditions and the other did not work at all.
>>65549074Are there more "Italian Americans" now than Italians?I know "Irish Americans" outnumber Irish.
>>65548347rommel is the zhukov of the axis. glazed and worshipped by dimwits, but a painfully inept retard that used the most brutish and unrefined tactics imaginable. he actively used italians AS fodder from the very onset of the campaign in order to cover his masterful tactical retreats
>>65549075> the other did not work at all.what makes you think that?
>>65549089there are approximately 58 million italians in italy. there are roughly 45 million people of italian descendence all across the world. so no. besides, they're italian in nothing but last name.
>>65549091>rommel was a painfully inept retard that used the most brutish and unrefined tactics imaginablewhatever you say
>>65549053You are only saying that because abandoning the Gold Standard and adopting 'progressive' income tax are the two worst things to happen to the human race besides the Council of Nikea.
>>65549092It feed sideways from open clips and required an oiler to work, allowing all manner of gunk to proliferate in the guts of the gun. Not an ideal design for a place where fine dust and sand is ubiquitous like say, North Africa.
>>65549109>besides the Council of Nikea.Magnus did nothing wrong.He was told do nothing and he did it wrong.
>>65549116you're thinking of the Breda 30 lol
>>65548113>They didn't have any sort of cool special submarineThey did carry commando minisubs, that's bretty cool
>>65549131No.
>>65549144yes you are >The Breda 37 is a durable, reliable design.https://youtu.be/LjU2qJJhaE4also wetheri t actually had an oiler seems to be subject of debatehttps://youtu.be/pWesu9pA6Ro?t=32
>>65549169>memetuberOpinion fucking discarded. Enjoy your last (you).
>>65548552mama mia! look here mario, i already done fuckin' told you those industries were staffed by artisanal craftsmen. not modern factory workers. mass manufacturing in italy at that time was hopelessly backwards and they could produce nowhere near the amount of shit that they needed for war. that's just a plain-as-day fact.all the manufacturing prowess they have today to build your prized fiat shitbox came after the war.
>>65549174>>O-Opinion discarded. Enjoy your last (you).uh ohFuddy MAD
>>65549182I'd snap her pasta and squirt my ketchup all over it, if you know what I mean
>>65549049Please do not put such delightful thoughts into my mind. >>65549109Idk about that anon but FDR being a crypto-commie who oversaw the total bastardization of the American Project while also letting Stalin (to Churchils shock, horror and loud protests) gobble up Eastern Europe is what does it for me.
>>65549194I don't know what you mean.
>>65549203I'd take her pizza and slap my pineapple on it repeatedly
>>65549204Nitche talks about this.
>>65546861>Strength>331 aircraft>losses>564 aircraftHow?
>>65549217Speculation, but the British did launch raids and capture airbases, so perhaps the strength category only includes active combat aircraft, while losses includes everything from transport/liaison/observation aircraft to stuff that was inoperative
>>65549217since no source is given the probably are refering to different numbers (or are made up lol)one could refer to strength one a certain daywhile the other could refer to toal lossesmaybe planes were also repaired and put back into service though
>>65549217sit down, sport. it's about time you and me had a little talk.you see when a mommy plane and a daddy plane love each other very much...
>>65549089Those "Irish" Americans are like 10% Irish and 90% mystery meat. Listening to fellow white Americans talk about their heritage is the most irritating and tedious bullshit to sit through. I would rather sit through a safety meeting than listen to that
>>65548106I heard they called it the Judas
>>65549217They had a factory at the top of a cliff that just dumped planes straight into the sea.
>>65549265Themselves or the LMG? Both fit
>>65549266Lots of shouting and hand waiving every time it happened.
>>65548814>2.5 million jeets in uniform by the wars end. Why can I hear the sound track for Attack of the Clones?
>>65548024only thing of note Italian submarines did was smuggle bullion into the far east that eventually resulted in a tranny-actuated family annihilation of the explosive kind 40 years later but that's a story for another day
>>65548395Thank you for announcing your idiocy.
>>65549208Nietzsche?
>>65549263I'm half-German, 2nd generation. Paternal Grandparents born in Danzig before it became G'dansk. Father was technically a German immigrant, since he was born in Germany and spent a few months as a fleshy hairless marshmallow raisin in a blanket over there.Other half of me is Danish / Hungarian from late 1800's.One of my descendants made Art Deco sculptures for Chicago utilities and also for a Rockefeller estate. :)
>>65548618Italians are not Romans, you greasy dago.
>>65549204>so begins the cultural gastronomical genocide off Italy Wait until we drop spaghetti-o's on these cunts
>>65549605pineabble pizza is not that badbut obviously I prefer CP
>>65549263Nobody asked
>>65549263>Didn't capitalize White
>>65549075Breda 37 was a fine gun, just that it was too fucking heavy for WW2 conditions.
>>65549906isn't that the case with every nations HMG except the german ones?
>>65549577The amount of people clueless about Italian commando operations is impressive
>>65549906>>65549915It's in a standard rifle cartridge. I refuse to recognize anything chambered in such as a >Heavymachine gun after WWI, even if it is technically correct.
>>65549915Germany still used the MG08/15 during WW2 (and a bunch of captured other HMG's)Basically yeah, all HMG's in WW2 were obsolete, but they were great for defensive positions. >>65549971The H in HMG refers more to 'can I carry it around?' rather than it's caliber.
>>65546861The 150k Italians were not in one place. They were scattered and immobile. The Brits with their tanks and trucks and other luxuries were able to destroy them in detail.
>>65549971jej same(though the distinction does make sense; light machine gun for squad level support, heavy one for long-range / indirect fire ?)>>65549985>Germany still used the MG08/15 during WW2the vast majority of German HMGs were either MG34 or MG42 on a tri-podhow many 08s were used, let alone in combat? Barely a couple thousand
>>65550039Early in the war, the 34 was still pretty rare. And the 42 hadn't even been invented yet.
>>65549985>>65550039I understand the origin, but by WWII it is not only an outdated concept but confusing with the proliferation of ~.50 cals>Ho-103, MG 131/Type 2, Vickers .50, Breda 12.7, M2
>>65550047maybe (I could find a number of 84,087 MG 34 on September 1st 1939; about 1/4 being HMGs)but as the war went on Germany got more of the modern MGs while Allied nations stuck with the old, heavy designs or even introduced new heavy designs (SG-43)
>>65550078The Americans jerry-rigged their M1919 into an LMG, but it sucked ass in the form of the M1919A6Hilariously some units ripped out ANM2 .30 cal brownings, shoved a garand stock onto them and a bipod and made a MUCH better LMG. Comparable to the MG42.
>>65550508>The Americans jerry-riggeddon't you mean tommy-rigged?
>>65550078the Bren gun wasn't an old LMG. it was quite modern and very good.i think you are confused at to what a light machine gun is.>>65550508you too. the US LMG was the M1918A2 BAR. the M1919A6 was a later attempt to adapt an existing medium machine gun platform to the role. it was okay.what the germs hit on was the concept of the GPMG which didn't really fit into the old light/medium/heavy classification. they purpose designed them to fill a variety of older roles.
>>65550525Being Americans, they would technically be yanky-rigging.
>>65550530The BAR was a shit LMG, the M1919A6 was better, but far from perfect.The purpose of a GPMG like the MG42, is that you can use it as a HMG or LMG as needed. And in the LMG role the MG42 was as great as the Bren. But the Bren sucked ass as a HMG.
>>65550078The MG-42 was a cheapened and lower quality version of the MG-34 and had to be forced on the Wehrmacht, not a modernised version.
>>65550530>what the germs hit on was the concept of the GPMG which didn't really fit into the old light/medium/heavy classification. they purpose designed them to fill a variety of older roles.You mean UMG, which was a concept everyone had played with. GPMG is a later term for the idea.
>>65550536The MG42 was cheaper, but more functional on the actual battlefield than the 34. The MG34 was just way too well made and prone to fucking up if any gunk got into it. The MG42 would eat dirt, snow and mud like it was nothing. The fucking thing would have minor out of battery issues and just keep on trucking thanks to steelcase ammo.
>>65550530>bren >goodIt was a top loaded piece of shit with a slow rate of fire and low capacity. The only people that think it was good are delusional bongs and retards.
>>65550535The MG42 was never an acceptable HMG. You are talking about things you don't really know about. It wasn't even strictly a GPMG since it could only adequately fill LSW/SAW and LMG/MMG roles and most vehicle mounted roles still required MG34s and it was always terrifically deficient as a HMG.
>>65550540Cite sources.
>>65550542The 42 was a great HMG, what the fuck are you smoking? The mount for it was highly advanced and allowed for accurate long range shooting. Barrels could be swapped in seconds, ROF to cut down swathes of infantry in a moment.
>>65550544This isn't reddit, read a fucking book if you want to learn.
>>65548876>>65549091What causes this level of delusional thinking? It's not like the africa campaign isn't well documented.
>>65550530>the Bren gun wasn't an old LMGthe convo was specifically about HMGs>>65549915
>>65550536if that's true how come half of europe copied the MG 42 post-war but basically* no-one copied the MG34also I remember reading about Werhmacht troops lamenting that Luftwaffe-Feld-DIvision-Units were getting Pak 40s and Mg 42s while they still had to deal with the old equipment[*czecs continued production in one plant; maybe a couple hundred to thousand produced]
>>65550548I'm telling you to do it because you are making things up.>>65550544No, it was total ass. 8mm Mauser is far too weak to be an acceptable HMG cartridge. It was one of the most glaring tactical-level equipment deficiencies of Wehrmacht fighting units in WWII, along with the fucking horse situation.>>65550562>yuropoors pick the cheaper option with gigantic surplus after having being forcibly deindustrialised
>>65550542>the MG 42 wasn't a GPMG because tanks still used the MG 34what?GPMG doesn't mean that you can literally use this for everything; it just means that it can be used either as a LMG or in a sustained fire role
>>65550568>8mm Mauser is far too weak to be an acceptable HMG cartridge8mm as a HMG cartridge has probably killed the third most amount of people behind .303 and .50BMGYou're getting confused with later developments of HMG's which only really got popularized after WW2, and only because the GPMG rendered the rifle caliber HMG completely obsolete.
>>65550568>>yuropoors pick the cheaper option with gigantic surplus after having being forcibly deindustrialisedwhen was Switzland deindustrialised? And unless you are talking about early Bundeswehr or Bundesgrenzschutz then none of them were "surplus"Also, the reason the US didn't adopt it was that they couldn't manage to reverse-engineer it
>>65550568> It was one of the most glaring tactical-level equipment deficiencies the Wehrmacht's most glaring tactical-level equipment deficiency was not having yet ANOTHER rifle calibre to account for?
>>65550568>No, it was total ass. 8mm Mauser is far too weak to be an acceptable HMG cartridgeWorked for the MG08.
>>65550576By your pathetically weak definition you could argue an M249 into being a GPMG.>>65550577>You're getting confused with later developments of HMG's which only really got popularized after WW2, and only because the GPMG rendered the rifle caliber HMG completely obsolete.How are you so clueless? Do you have any idea how many M2 Brownings the US Army fielded in WWII? They attached them to everything.>>65550562>>65550540Picrel is your "ultra reliable nazi wunderwaffe machinegewehr" faggots.>>65550568 was meant to reply to >>65550545 about 8mm Mauser being a useless HMG round.
>>65550578>the reason the US didn't adopt it was that they couldn't manage to reverse-engineer itThe reason the US didn't adopt it was because it got wrecked in all their trials of it, because it wasn't very good, for eg >>65550587>>65550583>workedTo use that word, you would need to set the bar so low that getting under it wouldn't even be possible.
>>65550587>By your pathetically weak definitionI literally copied the defintion from the Britbong MOD websiteM249 could be a GPMG if it had a proper tripod
>>65550582>rifle calibre>50 BMGBig think anon.
>>65550592M249 has a proper tripod you retard. You are categotically and practically wrong lol.
>>65550587>>65550587the US didn't copy the MG 42 because the MG3 (1969) was inferior to the FN MAG (1958) huhthe more you know ...
>>65550592>Britbong MOD websiteThe public facing one? How authoritative. I guess I don't know anything about machineguns anymore.
>>65550599Oh, it failed the first time around for the same reasons. The high fire rate is mechanically necessary because of the flawed feed mechanism, but it burns barrels too fast and can never fully overcome the mechanical flaws to reduce stoppage rates to acceptable levels. Putting some new lipstick on the pig with the MG3 designation didn't fix it.
>>65550587The M2 browning was the exception, not the norm. Nobody else was lugging around .50cals on everything. Even the Russians with the DshK was much less used.
>>65550603>The high fire rate is mechanically necessary because of the flawed feed mechanism, but it burns barrels too fastYou realize machinegunners are trained to fire in bursts to get a sustained ROF, not a cyclic ROF, right?
>>65550599>the FN MAGYou mean the M60? It was a third as reliable as the "famously unreliable" M60.
>>65550600well you were the one who claimed that GPMG = can be used for everything (from infantry to tanks ... hell maybe even planes)so I guess yea. You do know nothing
>>65550608The high rate of fire still burns the barrels, you clueless faggot. It also renders it really fucking bad in the SFMG role.>>65550604And we move past the denial phase into the coping phase "Oh that was rare and actually facing real HMGs on both fronts when they had none of their own wasn't a big deal."
>>65550613I stand by the claim. If you can't mount it on your tanks, then by definition it's not general purpose, it's an infantry machinegun.
>>65550597M122A1 doesn't even have telescopic legs; it's better than the bipod but inferior to proper tri-pods
>>65550614>8mm Mauser was woefully underpowered by HMG standards, I can prove this by a single nation having a higher powered HMG!>The high rate of fire still burns the barrels, you clueless faggot. It also renders it really fucking bad in the SFMG role.Good thing it can swap that barrel in a few seconds then lmao.
>>65550614>burns the barrelsyou do realize that you can exchange the barrels right?
>>65550621I meant the 30 cal tripods.
>>65550622>a single nation having a higher powered HMGWhat? You now contest that the USSR had HMGs?>Good thing I can swap barrelsIt doesn't fix the problem. MG3s shoot out their barrels one to two orders of magnitude faster than other machineguns even if you stick to the correct rates.
>>65550624It literally doesn't save it. Want some empirical evidence? Go and check the MG3's score for barrel life in those trials.
>>65550629The DShK's usage was considerably less than the MG34/42.What I am curious about is did you have a relative get shot by a fucking MG42 or something? What's with the hateboner when basically every nation used MG42 copies after WW2?
>>65550614>facing real HMGs >had none of their own???unironically what is your pointobviously germans had HMGs but those penetrated less armourbut why would this be the deciding factor? A tank could not be penetrated either way and Allied APCs were (in theory) vulnerable to MG34/42 as well
>>65550631>DShK's usageWas supplemented by US lend lease M2s. The US produced 4 times as many M2s as Germans produced MG42s during WWII.>What's with the hateboner when basically every nation used MG42 copies after WW2?I have a hateboner for wehraboos who want to pretend that German equipment was far better than it was. For example, by pretending that the MG42 was highly reliable, that it was a good SFMG or that it was a real HMG in anything other than a hypothetical sense. Don't even get me started on "The MG42 pioneered base of fire supporting maneouevre tactics that were later copied as the default for infantry tactics."
>>65550639The retard is comparing WW2 HMG's to modern day ones and is unimpressed.No shit an M2 browning is a more capable weapon, but it's also a shitload more expensive to build and logistically.
>>65550639Germans literally did not have HMGs. A rifle caliber MG is not a HMG. It is an MMG at most.
>>65550648The MG42 was highly reliable, for a fucking WW2 machinegun at least. You realize that every weapon back then had some pretty big issues, right?
>>65550650>A rifle caliber MG is not a HMGYou might want to tell the Germans, British, Japanese, Italians, Americans and Russians that fact.
>>65550651>>65550655I don't have the time to keep up this argument. Suck my dick wehraboo apologist.
>>65550657You're the dipshit who doesn't understand the meaning of words. The 'heavy' part means how fucking heavy the gun is. Not what it fires.You could in theory have a HMG firing .22lr if you wanted to be retarded.
>>65550660>The 'heavy' part means how fucking heavy the gun is.lol no
>>65550663You want to argue that point to a bunch of WW1 soldiers? They'd laugh at you lmao.
>duude the MG42 was unreliable and bad>here is a poorly cropped picture from the 1970s+ comparing the MG3 [a gun that uses different ammunition] to guns from the 50s and 60s; this somehow counts as a proof
>>65550660>>65550663you are both wrongheavy means that it can be used in a platoon-support-role - as opposed to a LMG that has a much lower effective range
>>65550666The US also liked to sabotage German weapon testing for some fucking reason. During WW2 they went out of their way to fuck up the ejection port of their MG42 clone, to make it jam every time.Their conclusion, instead of 'maybe we should make the weapon properly?' was 'Man the MG42 SUCKS! Lets NEVER copy it because the Browning is so much better!!!'
>>65550670should've combined both into one weapon desuLMG, 1200 RPG, .50 BMG
>>65550673That's basically the M3 browning, but you're not handling .50 recoil in the LMG role. Even the KORD sort of sucks as an LMG. In practice it's still very much treated as a HMG that you can kinda-sorta carry around as one man.
>>65550660>The 'heavy' part means how fucking heavy the gun is. Not what it fires.*in the old definition, not the actual RELEVANT MODERN DEFINITION of "heavy caliber"
>>65550669>heavy means that it can be used in a platoon-support-rolesource: my gaping anus
>>65550650they did tho
>>65550684We're talking about WW2, where the older definition applies you fucking mongoloid. Nobody in WW2 was slinging around Vickers watercooled guns and calling them LMG's.
>>65550693MG131 was VERY rarely used on the ground role. Did happen, but very rare. There's a picture of a tanker escaping their tank, with one in hand, I have no idea why he had one in his tank.
>>65550693>bigger than a fucking planenow THATS what I call a HMG
>>65550650At the start of WW1, rifle calibres were the only option for heavy machine guns. Larger calibres like 13.2mm only appeared late in the war.
>>65550697>some lunatic stole an MG131 that fires rare electrically primed ammunition from a grounded 109 and rigged a battery to it so they could use it as a PDW in their tank
>>65550710Not just one lunatic, multiple. There's a few pictured being used in the LMG role. Pretty kickass.Imagine the fucking gibs when you hit a human with 13.2mm HE rounds.
>>65550697>>65550716waitwhat tank specifically? Nashorn?
>>65550724I don't have the image on-hand, it was a Panzer 4 or a Panther.
>>65550697>I have no idea why he had one in his tank.Probably treated it as his emotional support HMG.
>>65548842>>65548835>General Walter Krueger (Wehrmacht) not to be confused with General Walter Krueger (US Army)>>65548854the Brits did in fact have APCs, famed for it. the "Bren Carriers", later termed Universal Carriers.>Assault-Riflesweren't as important; British infantry reported being perfectly happy with bolt-action rifles, they wanted more of all the other stuff, particularly antitank weapons and artillerymainly this was because you can fire accurate aimed shots from bolt-actions at an average of 20rpm and accurate aimed shots from semiautos like the Garand would be about 30rpm, the difference is not enough to matter>>65549109stick to Norkshit, Norktard, you're hopelessly ignorant elsewhere>>65549263>fellowmethinks the nigger doth protest overmuch
>>65550592>I literally copied the defintion from the Britbong MOD websiteNAYRT but you know they farm that shit out ot women and jeets (often even women jeets) right? the accuracy (and often grammar) of their media posts leaves very much to be desired>>65550660>The 'heavy' part means how fucking heavy the gun is. Not what it firesnopethe "heavy" part means it can be used for sustained fire, has longer range, and often has a larger than usual cartridge in a larger than usual calibre. the fact that this often means the weapon has greater mass is ancillary. nor does it matter whether the weapon can be mounted on a vehicle or not; putting a .303 Lewis Gun on a fighter plane does not mean a .303 Lewis Gun can be meaningfully described as a "heavy machine gun">>65550697>>65550710tank crew on both sides were trained to dismount their machine guns if their vehicle was disabled so that they could use the machine gun to provide fire support to friendly infantry, or even as additional base security when camped for the nightcannot be arsed to look it up but I'm sure it's formally written down in some tank manual somewherethat dude probably stole an MG131 to use it from the tank, maybe in a makeshift pintle mount, and is salvaging it as per training
>>65550818"Heavy" literally means they're too heavy to move around. LMG's like the Lewis gun and such were 'light' because a man could actually carry them around.
>>65549263>fellow>bitching about lineage talksI do not believe you are an American. not by birth. this is presuming you are indeed white.
>>65550804>stick to Norkshit, Norktard, you're hopelessly ignorant elsewhereAnon i was raised as a Non Trinitarian. Although this is not the right forum i could go on for days about there only being one God not three, why Jesus was his representative on earth not the Pope and why you shouldn't worship icons or Saints. I will not be declaimed as ignorant by a scripturally illiterate slave of Rome without offering a rebuke.
>>65546861italy got into a war it was not prepared for and found out.the bald retard should've just kept shut and minded his own business like spain did instead of chasing dreams of glory in africa.
>>65551020Post hand, outlet and firearm with timestamp or shut the fuck up, Untermensch.
>>65549587>>65549892>>65549903>>65550804>>65550930>doesn't want to hear the story of how mutt anon is 10 percent Irish, 20 percent German, 20 percent Scots Irish, 25 percent Dutch, 5 percent Polish, 5 percent French, 9 percent Welsh, and 1 percent native on your mom's side.Beige rage, you are sad individuals with no history or future.
>>65551028See above.
>>65548423The Germans took Greece with minimal casualties
>>65548417Well the Brits got their ass kicked in Africa until the American tanks started to show up so maybe that martial culture wasn't all that mattered.
>>65551220the Brits only got their asses kicked because the Panzer III Ausf F appeared and the existing British tank chasses could not be upgraded any further. up until then they were kicking both Italian and German ass up till Operation Crusader.
>>65550984>claims to worship a Jew>denies the rights of other Jews to live in the same land Jesus did because he doesn't recognize the concept of property ownership as legitimateReally earning the "tard" in your moniker, I hope you know your savior would hold you in contempt
>>65550617That's dumb and yoimu know it You can't quick change an M1919 barrel but the US used them as hull machine guns. The Gwmermans could have mounted 42s on tanks, they chose not to.
>>65550587An MG3 is not an MG42. It's a worn out MG42 thay has been armory fucked.
>>65551604You just missed the entire substance of my statements, the historical and theological context and went straight towards being a /pol/ Latrina troll since you don't get a basic elementary school western education did you? This shit is Christianity and the history of Monotheism 101.
>>65549109I like your posts normally, but goldbugism is retarded.
>>65548475And for backstabbing Engelbert Dollfuss, too.
>>65548744Checked and kekked>Italians took sex from Greeks and realised you could have it with womenThey probably invented makeup around then too which was a key component.
>>65552940I remember the "substance" of your argument, Norktard, there's nothing of "substance" about it. >"Presupposes that the land belonged to the seller in the first place, as the most contested place in human history there is no end to the 'it was stolen' nonsense, that literally goes back to before known human history." https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/65339820/#65340517Just here to remind you Jesus would spit on you, and he'd be right, too. Stick to North Korea, retard.
>>65550532This sounds efficient and classy.
https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/15951473Nächstes Mal ohne Italien.
>>65549109>norktard putting the tard in goldbuggeryThread's right, keep your nose firmly stuck in Best Korean affairs and outside of shit ye wot not of
>>65549587>One of my descendants>Art>RockefellerWhat are you a time travelling Jew?
>>65548464italians are more muslim looking than literal muslims.
>>65549263Whiter and blonder than you mutt.
>>65548931geg
