Is 9mm enough, and if so how? What about .30 super carry or .32 acp? For civillian self defense, not law enforcement needs
>>65552634Why do you consider civilian requirements different than law enforcement requirements?
>>65552634.32 is adequate>>65552659Civilians are not actively investigating potentially hostile encounters.
>>65552659Well a piggy has to bring a target down at all costs with a mass support network of other people with the same goal if it arises from confrontation(which is all but guaranteed to occur), whereas a civillian is merely defending themselves from immediate unwarranted threats and retreating if possible
A 22 that's loaded with stingers is enough with good shot placement.
380acp is the smallest caliber i personally feel is adequate for protection.
>>6555263432ACP does kill people good enough, but the 380 and 9mm does it a little bit betterWhen it comes to pistols I think its more a case the gun over the cartridge in a lot of cases, a good gun you're confident and capable of using under stress is worth more than any kind of energy dump statistics. Likewise the circumstances it'll be used, a carry gun isn't quite the same as a home defense gun. In a carry situation if you can loose off a few enough to get clear of the situation is 'enough', but if you're protecting family or a home from someone- go hard and mean as you can use in the middle of the night and fuck their shit all up
Mouse calibers depend more on shot placement. 9mm has more authority against soft body armor (in the unlikely event that's an issue) if you load 50gr Liberty Civil.
>>65552634Yes .32acp is a functional self defense round. It has been killing men for 125 years. Cops carried .32acp and .380 until that hollywood bank robbery when they all switched to 9mm, despite that it would not have made a difference and the problem was that the cops didn't carry a carbine in their patrol car.Is 9mm better than 380? Yes. Is 380 netter than 32? Yes. Does .32acp FMJ have adequate penetration and wounding to kill a man in winter clothing? Yes.Reminder that hollow point pistol rounds are not for better wounding, they are so the round either stays in the body or is caught in clothing upon exit. Hollowpoint have worse wounding than FMJ when the bullet strikes bone.
>>65552666>wound channelFlesh is not 20% gelatin. These are basically bullshit and for pistol rounds only the immediate area around the bullet's actual path is damaged. Hunt a deer with a pistol and you'll see the difference.
Reminder that the FBI prioritizes mass retention of the bullet as a matter of policy, not effectiveness. They are a police force and bullet mass retention simplifies surgery on suspects. Which is why FBI likes bonded hollowpoints.
I'm on the side of shot placement > bullet effect. A bullet that hits will damage the body and when 9mm (or less powerful) helps you hitting, choose it. Be it through the cost for training, recoil or how comfortable the gun is.
>>65552830Everyone knows. You don't need a handgun bullet to absolutely pass through a foot of flesh to reliably kill a person.Gelatin is a replicable, accessible, standard analogue.
>>65552634Anything is good enough if pulling out the gun makes the perp GTFO. If it comes down to having to shoot the perp, then pistol caliber no longer matters and shot placement ends up being all that matters if you want the threat to drop ASAP.
>>65552634.25ACP will kill any man when delivered to the weak points of the skull. If you need more than that, it's a skill issue.That said, realistically nobody has the skill to be justify being comfortable with nothing more than that. .32 is a much better compromise. .380 is even better if you're less sure of yourself. 9mm even better than that. Personally I use 9mm, but if I'm being honest that has more to do with me being cheap than it does with .32 not being good enough.Super carry is fine if you just have to be contrarian.
>>65553446>.25ACP will kill any man when delivered to the weak points of the skull. If you need more than that, it's a skill issue.But those were primarily execution situations, right? There was that Soviet who personally executed a ton of people under Stalin with a .25. That's hardly the same as defensive use.
>>65553803You get hit in the head with a .25 you ain't getting back up.
>>65553859Haven't we seen suicides by mobiks where an improperly aimed AK headshot fails to put them down immediately and they have to take another crack at it while most of their face is missing?
>>65552728I think that's potentially important, the piercing part. Civil Defense 9 is actually pretty hot and I'd much rather have the ability to pierce than not. People shit on the petals as being meme tier but the ballistics testing I've seen from a few years ago was dirty as fuck.
>>655526349mm needs to undergo the same shit other old rounds have, have its standard operating pressures raised and just slap a warning on the box for unsupported plastic crap. 9mm is to what 380 is to ramranch
>>65552824>Hollowpoint have worse wounding than FMJ when the bullet strikes bonea point often forgotten (in these caliber-war discussions)
>>65554101You can get the same stuff in .380 too, but the problem is that soft armor is a lot better than it used to be 10-20 years ago. Many UHMWPE and hybrid panels can stop Liberty Civil 9x19mm wholesale, but not all panels can, which means if you wanna pierce and cannot use a rifle cartridge or true AP ammo, you need the full ticket to have the best odds.By virtue of being the default LE handgun cartridge, 9x19mm also has a massive variety of actually armor piercing ammo. Chief among them are the tungsten core varieties. DM91, 7N31M, Libra Snail. The smaller calibers don't have that selection at the top shelf and lack the full performance "street vest busters" too.Liberty Civil will still give an older aramid vest hell, for one, and I mean if we're talking expired 20 year old First Choice vests or whatever then the .380 version can deal too, but then you take a terminal ballistics hit.
>>65552634.32 is what real niggas who actually know how to aim use
>>65554681I like the idea of .327 magnum, being able to handle a pretty potent magnum round, using a lighter but still effective h&r magnum, or using a .32 long for basically 0 recoil all in one gun. Sadly its not very available aside from the odd ruger run
>>65553803John Browning created the .25acp as a .22lr replacement because derringers were popular. .25acp, .32acp, and .380 were all modernizations of existing revolver cartridges..22LR is lethal. .25acp moreso. However pistols aren't rifles and it is wise to use both judicious accuracy and generous volumes of fire to ensure that a threat is neutralized.
>>65554668How often in a self defense situation does the aggressor wear body armor? Sure, it has happened, but it invalidates most pistols and while head and groin shots are the answer, you're probably shooting center mass anyways because it is uncertain information and you can still injure hands and arms and hope to hit CNS or hit what wasn't covered like through an armpit or neck.
>>65554742>he doesnt carry sabots in his edcNgmi with obsolete trash
>>65554742Depends on the situation. Cops no-knocking the wrong house, without announcing themselves, are apparently legally home invaders and almost always wear armor. And yes, you can get off if you win the shootout.https://www.cbsnews.com/news/maryland-police-shot-prince-georges-county-entering-wrong-home-search-warrant/>Two Maryland police officers were shot while serving a drug-related search warrant at the wrong apartment late Wednesday, according to law enforcement officials. The (chad) man shot the (virgin) officers as soon as they opened the door, thinking they were home invaders, authorities said. No criminal charges will be filed against the man.Active shooters also wear armor. Buffalo shooter had III+ plates from RMA. RMA sucks but their plates are more than enough versus any reasonable pistol threat. There are other suspect cases where home invaders run away after being shot and there's no blood or bullet holes (concealed vest?). Armor is cheap. Really cheap. Even IIA will cut it and is thin / easy to conceal.>but it invalidates most pistolsSoft vests aren't plates. Buffalo asshole's RMA 1093s no sold the security guard's 9mm because they were good for M855 and M80, either of which will pierce good IIIA seven times over. You can still cause behind armor blunt trauma even with non-penetrating hits. Won't kill but will have some (sometimes...) effect. Not reliable though, because that's mostly psychological and also depends on the quality and level of the armor versus what you're packing. It's better to pierce.Liberty Civil will pierce basic cheap IIIA outright. Special panels will stop it.>you're probably shooting center mass anyways because it is uncertain information and you can still injure hands and arms Score one for a shotgun. Home invaders aren't going to be rolling full Ukraine style with extremity IIIA, full torso soft, face armor, and helmets.>>65554750Dagny Daggers would have been great if they weren't fuckin vaporware.
