>https://theaviationist.com/2026/10/04/germany-exploring-gcap-entry/Get ready for the krauts to ruin GCAP like they did with the Typhoon. Germany is in talks with the UK to enter the project.
>>65562791It says here "exploring".
>>65562799it's scary enough. Possible future GCAP customers will run away even before Germany actually joins just from the memories of german vetos on export during the typhoon project
>>65562791>ruin Typhoonwho exactly thought Typhoon was ruined?some butthurt Poles, or teh rabid anti-German corean botnet?>>65562803>Possible future GCAP customers will run awayGCAP only has partners, no export customers exist
>>65562791>65562791NO PLEASE NOTI DON'T WANT THIS UGLY SHIT PLANEBetter develop our own sixth gen fighter. Doesn't matter how long it takes.
>>65563086Germany isn't able to develop even an FPV drone, let alone a 6th gen fighter.
>>65563086>concept
>>65563086>germans backed out of fcas because they wanted to be on equal terms with a group who has the experience making fighter jets when they have 0>this one genuinely considers making a fighter jet out of scratch locallyWhat causes such hubris?
>>65563245>isn't able to develop even an FPV droneTo be fair to the germoid, even the US fucking A with all the money they have is unable to develop proper FPV drones.
>>65563524>perennial autonomy (US) is Ukraine's best long range strike drone >Neros is at 100,000 run rate of fpv drones with pixel lock right now have 2 radios and tested successfully in ukraine
>>65563534DELET THIS
>>65562826>GCAP only has partners, no export customers existBecause they're not taking orders yet.Not even the primary 3 partners have placed airframe orders.
>>65562791This article says it's being discussed, and it ALSO says germany thinks they wont get enough industrial workshare, IP, and that the current design prioritizes maritime operations they don't need/care about. The article further says Team Gen 6 and/or the Swedish/Spanish joint work are far more appealing for germany (despite neither option actually resulting in a 6th gen manned airframe).If you actually read the article you'd know it's basically saying the OPPOSITE of what you're implying it says. Germany isn't joining GCAP, the GCAP airframe design is being finalized now with a freeze date of the end of 2027. Germany would need to get off their asses, renegotiate workshare with Japan/Italy/UK, and have all of that done within ~18 months. And the only way that happens is if germany basically agrees to have little to no input on the GCAP airframe, which airbus and MTU won't agree with.So yeah, it's never happening.
>>65562791>frognigger gookranny pooplak cope >>65563245>most knowledgeable 50 IQ anti-german online mudhut dweller
>>65562791>Get ready for the krauts to ruin GCAP like they did with the Typhoon.What exactly is ruined about the Typhoon? It's a 2x more capable plane than the Rafale with it's shit radar, no SEAD capability and no weapon variety that is only being sold to countries where they can bribe their way to a contract.
>>65562791>Krauts join>buy themselves veto power>block features they dislike because too warlike>force busywork for German industries>decade later they withdraw 60% of their orders>to buy ITAR-ready US aircraft instead>>65562826>who exactly thought Typhoon was ruined?Everyone, they are closing factories because no one buy any.https://aeronauticsmagazine.com/news/end-of-an-era-final-typhoon-rolls-off-uk-line-as-raf-backs-stealthier-future-with-f-35sAnd it's development cost ballooned to a level each country spent as much as if they had developed their own aircraft.The design was wrong to begin with, it was built as a cold war interceptor because Germany thought being able to hit ground target was for warmonger. It took decades for the Typhoon to finally obtain ground strike capability.
>>65563702> buy themselves veto powerWhich is why japan will never allow it, even if germany threw $50B at the program.
>>65563702They did the same with the Tornado.
>>65563702The UK make F35s, use F35s and are going all in on GCAPWhy would they continue to make Eurofighter?
>>65562791>Jets that aren't AmericanWhat is even the point?
>>65563766He's also being diingenous. There are over 100 EFs being produced right now for Germany, Spain and others, Tranche 4 and 5, also the Brits are making Turkish Eurofighters.The French are just assblasted because nobody wants to work with them and because they'll be stuck on 4.5th gen forever, they're the only ones screeching about ITAR all day every day.
>>65563766>The UK make F35sI mean, kinda over selling it.They make ~13-15% of every F-35.Mostly in the aft fuselage, and vertical/horizontal tail surfaces, as well as the landing gear, arresting hook, head mounted display, and ejection seats. And of course the lift fan system on the F-35B. But the UK has never built an F-35. Not a single one.
>>65563702>it was built as a cold war interceptor because Germany thought being able to hit ground target was for warmonger. It took decades for the Typhoon to finally obtain ground strike capability.I've heard this before. I never do this, but I'm curious, so: source?
>>65562791what's are the goals of 6th gen? More stealth? More AI? What does it hope to achieve exactly?
>>65563715they did the same with european history. fucking krauts.
>>65562791On one hand, I'd feel sorry for the UK/Italy/Japan.On the other hand, they really need to stop pretending it's 6th gen. It's an overgrown F-35/F-22 with a little more bling and firmly 5th gen, just thirty years later.Basically the next Typhoon, which also came thirty years after the F-15.
>>65565232>they really need to stop pretending it's 6th genAh yes, the age old american cope. I bet when the GCAP will fly the US will change the definition of 6th gen to "it needs to be made in the US and blessed by Epstein". Dying empire I tell you.
>>65562791How long until the world learns that the Germans are poison when it comes to any military cooperation?
>>65565255Until France exist to always be proven to be worse than Germany in cooperation, never
>>65563783>>65565278Rent free, mon ami nauséabond
>>65565297Naaahhhhh having the audacity to write rent free as a frog, in a French seethes about Germany thread is crazy
>>65565278>SAMP/T>FREMM>Horizon class>LSS>Bromo projectHow come the italians were always able to cooperate with the french without bowing down to them? The frogs have a myriad of issues, and are massive hypocrites, but at least they know it, the germans are on the same level but try to pretend otherwise.
>>65565317Isn’t the better question: how come Germany was the only country willing to work with France on a next gen plane, but even they left because they didn’t want to deal with France’s bullshit ? Makes one wonder why Italy didn’t, since like you say they supposedly work so well together
>>65565278kek, stop making the frogs mad
>>65565297>post is made by seething frenchoids>20 posts of them crying>erm...rent free!!how about you go out into the street and get your face incinerated by a nigger instead?
>>65565317>Bromo project>Project Bromo is a proposed merger between three of Europe's largest space companies, Airbus, Thales and Leonardo,This is so going to get blocked by the EU
>>65562791It won't happen, the development is too far along with the workshare agreed upon.
>>65565323>why Italy didn’tItaly had no need for a carrier capable fighter so it didn't enter in the first place, Germany entered knowing the french wanted a naval version then complained about it. Complaining about France because they wanted to run the whole thing and make everyone else pay is fair, but the germans were dumb in the first place to enter FCAS.
>>65565363Italy is teasing a nuclear carrier rn bruhConsidering the French deficit Italy could push for a good deal to join there Refeal replacement.Already made this workhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATR_(aircraft_manufacturer)
>>6556379515% of EVERY F35 is crazy manPoint is they're producing and using it
>>65565232Lockheed Martin have made up this generation meme anyway, but go ahead and define 6th gen and how it differs from 5thThen explain why GCAP is 5th and not 6th without any "X.5" bullshit either
>>65562791The Germans are just going to make a shitty ass drone carrier bullshit slop while the uk and japanese handover the manufacturing of the gcap as a license. The most overrated country unironically in terms of engineering.
>>65563766There’s no killswitch in European aircraft
>>65565196OK, it is the butthurt Pole
>>65565944>while the uk and japanese handover the manufacturing of the gcap as a license.Never happeningEven if they did, germany doesn't possess the domestic industry to build the components even if they were given the blueprints and industrial recipes. At least not without spending a decade or two and billions of dollars building the infrastructure/expertise.
>>65563491It's funny they thought someone else would give them a better deal than the FCAS. Instead of giving their domestic industry a lifeline they downgraded themselves to customers.
>>65567025The reality is FCAS itself was a fantasy, even if germany agreed to fund it and give france their workshare demands.The next 10-15 years would've been R&D that directly applied to the Rafale F5, and maybe some early R&D on FCAS foundational shit and software, which would also likely be useful for future Rafale upgrades.Then sometime in the 2040s france MIGHT'VE started genuine hard design/development on FCAS itself, and since M88 TREX is going to take until ~2030-35, the FCAS engine at the earliest could begin the ~15-20 year development cycle sometime around then making it available for service around 2050. The biggest problem with FCAS is basically all of the technology they needed for it they don't have yet, and the plan to get it was to upgrade Rafale. That's not something germany wanted to fund.
>>65563491>What causes such hubris?France is such an amazingly toxic partner, they have ruined so many international projects with their demands to control everything, have all the workshare and yet wanting their partners to pay for everything.Jokes on them this time though as they are stuck with 4th gen Rafales for the next 20+ years.
>>65562791Why do all these "6th gen" programs fail to see the engine importance? P&W and GE are like 4 to 6 years away from airframe integration. I dont see RR (who is the only real other engine company) getting billions for adaptive cycle. With the electricity and cooling demands a re-engine core upgrade isnt going to cut it
>>65567278Looking forward to the inevitable copypasta in a few years:"The Rafale, is the equal, or even superior to, any 6th generation fighter... etc."
>>65567295kek french arrogance knows no bounds. I also find Swedes and specifically Grippen fags to similar saying their f404 powered electronic warfare makes it survivable and as effective as a F-35
>>65563632Francophile seethe at Typhoon stealing export contracts from the Rafale.
>>65567287Well GCAP isn't using an adaptive cycle engine, confirmed over a year ago by RR themselves in an interview with aviation weekThey're almost certainly using a development from the IHI XF9-1 core that was tentatively called the XFP30 before the designation got scrubbed from a press release. The XFP30 is thought to take the XF9 core and integrate the RR Pearl 10X ALM cooling tiles, as well as the RR E2SG program. Allowing the core to go from the original XF9's 1800C turbine temps, to ~2000C turbine temps. Pushing the dry thrust performance from ~24,000lbf on the XF9 to ~30,000lbf on the XFP30 (hence the "30" for 30,000lbf). And increasing the peak electrical power generation from ~180kW on the XF9 to ~250-300kW on the XFP30.The XF9 was a semi-variable 2.5 stream architecture, not a full 3 stream VCE. And the XFP30 is also expected to be the same.There is simply no other way for RR and IHI to get an engine flying by 2035. The only variable cycle engine either company had in development was the XG240 that RR had been working on, but it was a digital design that never got greenlit, as confirmed in 2025 by RR themselves when they said adaptive cycle engines didn't "earn their way" onto GCAP. IHI and RR are also working on new cooling techniques, including metamaterial heatsinks and using the entire stored internal fuel volume as a massive liquid heatsink.
>>65567353"6th gen" its just a jumbo twin engine delta F35. I expected more than just extended range and large weapons bays. sad
>>65563846>sourceHis asshole.
>>65567353Maybe the congressional bill in 1998 forbid it but they could have swallowed their pride and ordered F-119 engines hahahaha
>>65565148>what's are the goals of 6th gen?You have to wait until we see what the F-47/FA-XX actually looks like.
>>65565252>Ah yes, the age old american cope>western aircraft generations are defined by American planes
>>65567393The F135 engine maxes out at 160kW peak electrical power. And with planned upgrades a little over 200kW.The XFP30 is expecting 250-300kW per engine, so 500-600kW for the airframe, or easily double what the F-35 can do, even with the planned upgrades.>>65567405F119 produces a fraction of the electrical power, and why the fuck would they want to pay billions of dollars to restart a dead production line for something they've already proven in 2018 they can build themselves domestically?
>>65565317Aster 30 is an MBDA missile and Brono is an attempt to form a monopoly out of European space companies since they can't compete in the global market.
>>65566331>germany doesn't possess the domestic industry to build the componentsAnon Germany is one of the primary manufacturers of the Eurofighter.
>>65567467He is worst corean gookshill, butthurt pole/PiStard or some weird francophile Dassault fanboi, do not expect coherent arguments.
>>65562791still can't believe france and UK didn't cooperate on it when we have a succesful track record of cooperationand instead we joined hand with the krauts who have fundamentally different needs from uslike I know we aren't the easiest to work with but we still have similar needs and knowledge that would be worth having
>>65566331>germany doesn't possess the domestic industry to build the components even if they were given the blueprints and industrial recipesGermany makes components for the F-35
>>65567853Dude, look at what teh French want.A fucking carrier capable fighter.NOBODY else wants this, and it was pure political stupidity for Germany to try and cooperate wit hthem.The same is true for the attempt to cooperate on a new MBT. Sheer idiocy.Just because you made the Jaguar 60 years ago doesn't mean teh French are normal today.And even teh jaguar was an almost-desaster back then.
>>65567876other nations with a carrier could be interested, like UK or italy. we are talking about 6th gen fighters so an uprade over the F-35, and buying the american 6th gen doesn't seem like a good idea at the momentand we colaborated on other stuffs since the jaguar like the FREMM or MBDA. Dassault are a pain to work with but it would still be worth the economy of scale and the knowledge
>>65567887>nations with a carrier could be interested, like UK or italy>rampNah m8. IF there were true European carriers, maybe. But they do not exist, and UK and Italy both use F-35Bs.>Dassault Yeah it was probably more their idiocy than French faggotry that sank the project.But Nexter and KMW were also forced into a joint venture, and it's just one endless desaster that everyone who knows tanks saw as a guaranteed fail three years ago.
>>65567393Anon, you don't even know the definition of 6th gen.
>>65567409Nah, the one who defines 6th gen is china as they were the first. The US is dying and it shows since they were not able to even bring up a complete render of their "totally flying" 6th gens.
>>65567887Those other nations would then need to design (or purchase the design) of a whole new type of carrier. Currently la Grande Nation is the SEULE Europoor with a legitimate CATOBAR full-size carrier. Everyone else has glorified Assault Ships that have only enough real estate to launch STOVL airplanes or helicopters. I'm surprised you didn't know that.And then on top of that expense, the other Euros would also need a geopolitical use-case for such a big expensive, BOUFFANT carrier force.
>>65567467>>65567858Yes, and none of that would help them manufacture the engines or the complete manned airframe of a massive stealth fighter like GCAP.Like I said, they could assemble GCAP if they import completed parts, but they're not going to build GCAP from scratch even if you handed them every single technical document involved in the program. They simply lack the industry to build composite cobonded airframe structures of that size, and have zero domestic jet engine hot section manufacturing base. Japan could give them their single crystal superalloy details and engine core details today and it'd be 15-20 years before they'd manage to actually build it into an engine, and cost 10s of billions.
>>65567353>They're almost certainly using a development from the IHI XF9-1 core that was tentatively called the XFP30 before the designation got scrubbed from a press release.>Using an engine worse than the F-22
>>65568275Lol go ahead and explain how it's worse.At 30,000lbf dry with an unknown wet thrust (likely between 38,000-44,000lbf) that puts it behind F119 thrust levels.And once again, the peak electrical power generation for the F119 is a fraction of what XFP30 promises.
>>65568284>behindBeyond
>>65562791>While discussions between London and Berlin are in the early stages, internal German government assessments reportedly favor a collaboration with Sweden and Spain over joining GCAP.I hate zoomers so fucking much holy shitthis is literally the subtitle of the acrticlejust jump of a fucking building you waste of oxygen
>>65568136>super autismo manufacturing country germany can't do autistic manufacturingAnon, they could but we all know the germans are even happier when they can build tiny parts that go into stuff. They love building the thing that goes into the thing that goes into the thing.
>>65568325Except, they can't. They don't have the foundational industry, what don't you get here? This isn't screwdrivers and hammers, for the airframe alone we are talking about massive autoclaves that exist in 3-5 locations in the entire world, and on the engine side of things, Germany has ZERO domestic single crystal super alloy casting infrastructure, zero NDT infrastructure for those castings and zero institutional knowledge of the entire field because they don't do jet engine hot section development or manufacturing.You're delusional.
>>65567278>as they are stuck with 4th gen Rafales for the next 20+ yearsThat's better than not having a domestic jet industry at all like what Germany is headed for.
>>65568403Ehhhh, there are trade off either way.Germany might not have a domestic jet industry (which they already didn't have, even with the eurofighter), but at least they can buy F-35s or GCAP in the future.France is locked into Rafale for decades to come, and the Rafale F5 is looking like even for the french military getting domestic discount pricing it'll end up costing $150-200M per airframe.
>>65562791Who don't the euros try a less ambitious project first? Like a joint boot or rifle or truck. Something simple that allows them to figure out how to manage French feels and German autism before dealing with literally the most complex thing you can build?
>>65568420It depends on how much dependency on foreign powers you're willing to tolerate to operate your air force. Considering the whole Team 6th Gen thing I'm not sure Germany is ready to swallow that pill. France doesn't have a nice road ahead but they've always been willing to make sacrifices for independent military capability. At least for them it's a familiar pain.
>>65568434Germany's road ahead is frankly obvious.Pay for R&D contracts for Team Gen6, maybe partner with Sweden on a drone program, and then buy more F-35s for the next 2 decades.France's sovereignty is meaningless if it buys you freedom of action only in uncontested, permissive airspace. Great. You have no one telling you what to do or where you can go, but your jet is so outdated and outclassed that you can't REALLY deploy it anywhere except to fly over african shitholes and bomb 3rd worlders. Which if that's all france needs/wants, great. But it sure as fuck is useless against a future russian or chinese stealth threat.
>>65568440>Germany's road ahead is frankly obviousOf course it's obvious. They quite literally have no other options left and everybody knows it. The only question is how long it'll take for Germany to admit it.
>>65568454I mean, the pragmatic option is to limit F-35 purchases to the bare minimum and then buy GCAP as a customer.Though german primes refuse to allow this, so they fight tooth and nail for Team Gen 6 instead so the politicians are (more or less) forced to play along and ignore GCAP for a domestic program that will never exist outside of early R&D work.
>>65568440>Team Gen6never going to be a thing. The most capable player there is sweden and they only managed to build a glorified trainer (JAS39)
>>65568645Yep, that's my point.They'll pay for Team Gen 6 R&D, but it'll never amount to anything, so they might include (or pivot to) a joint drone program with Sweden, that actually exists eventually. But otherwise the plan is to waste money on Team Gen 6 R&D before eventually buying more F-35As in the 2030s.
>>65568440>future russian stealth threatvery funny>future chinese stealth threatOK maybe, but China will try to avoid antagonizing the Euros
>>65568741Yeah but since they're basically locked into Rafale until the 2070s or later, they're basically just banking on no major geopolitical shifts in the region in the next 50 years.
>>65567900China has no sixth gen.
>>65567887>other nations with a carrier could be interestedAmerica and China are not buying French fighters.
>>65568284I like how we are quoting specs for an engine that doesn't exist.
>>65568337It's amazing watching someone be so confidently wrong, also fuck you for making me defend Germany.
>>65569769It's bait. Stop replying to him.
>>65569776Okay, so who can manufacture the hot section in germany?>>65569773XF9 specs are confirmed.1800C24,250lbf dry33,000lbf wet180kWXFP30 bumps it up a bit, but the numbers i'm throwing out are educated guesses based on the XF9 baseline. I'm not just pulling numbers out of a hat for fun.XFP30:2000C~30,000lbf dry~40,000lbf wet~250-300kW
>>65569773>>65569864And just for referenceF119 (F22 engine):1650C26,000lbf dry35,000lbf wet~60-80kW
