We all know how this will go.
>Dec 2026: New Era
>Contact with an enemy
>Old Era with a new coat of paint

>>65568667
You know I'm just glad ARfags get to eat crow after all the years of calling bullpups shit because they're being replaced in service (ignoring they served for several decades before getting replaced). At the very least they can stop carting out that excuse and maybe come to the realization that basing your firearms purchases off what the army adopts is like basing your liquor purchases off what a severe alcoholic buys

>>65568667
Bullshit. M4s on Mars.

>>65568677
what?

>>65568667
>let's field the rifle for the war that ended 5 years ago
peoples over 50 should be banned from making any decision in any field

>>65568667
Doesn't that overpressure round require a longish barrel to do its thing?

>>65568691
t. man who thinks modern war is trench warfare

>>65568667
>replacing the M7

>>65568677
That's a lot of words to really say nothing. Thank you anon, for your contribution

>>65568705
well, Ukraine vs Russia is a modern war

>>65568677
t. seething bullpuppy

>>65568677
>appeals to authority on bullpups being used as a service weapon
>immediately contradicts himself by saying ar's being fielded as a service weapon doesnt matter
do bullpup sissies really?

>>65568705
you have no idea how wrong you are.
war will always be either one of these two
>two opponent of the same strength face each others = trench war
>one opponent of a superior strength face one of inferior strength = asymetric warfare

It will always be like that, you can put in drone and air strikes it's either the trench or endless patrol and random IED explosion for 10 years, every fucking time and that will only stop when we get back to bows and swords then it's back to line formation and cavalry until someone discover black powder and everything just repeat itself.

>>65568677
Faggot

SIG is being given a chance to rectify their mistakes on the SPEAR with the NU-SPEAR
I fully expect the same to happen with the P320/M17/M18s being replaced by the P385s too

>>65568705
It literally is.

>>65568667
M8 was never planned to replace the M4 entirely. Rear troops will still have them.

>>65568715
Just because you're mad doesn't make me any less right. Either military adoption doesn't matter and it has no place in a discussion of civilian firearms, or it does and the AR is now bad by that logic

>>65568708
theres no air superiority so its not modern war. both sides have zero air force so they just fling missiles from their side of the court.

>>65568667
*laughs in HICAR
memes aside this is an excellent b8 thread
>>65568708
ya, a modern war fought by two retards. The only thing of worth to come out of that conflict is normalizing drone use which, ironically, already antiquates the M8 concept and reinforced the utility of an M4 lmao

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>>65568667
The AR18 insides become more popular yet the AR15 still remains on top in the market.
Also the new cartridge is a joke. There were already other cartridges available to replace the 5.56mm for intermediate cartridges such as the .300 Blackout.

>>65568724
nta but nothing you said was ever, "right". you contradicted yourself in your original post which was only 2 sentences long. that legitimately might be a record.

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>>65568691
It's an astounding display of institutional incompetence. We have literal HOURS of video from Ukraine showing modern near-peer firefights are close-in spray-and-pray-fests. That the guy with more ammo is an an absolute advantage. And the retards at the Pentagon adopt a battle rifle that weighs 12 pounds unloaded chambered in a round that weighs twice as much as 5.56. All because they have PTSD from 20 years of soldiers getting shot at by retarded sand people with Lee Enfields from a cave 700 yards away. This is a rare time is history where you can actually SEE a horrendous mistake being made before your very eyes. Yet no one is stopping it. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad

>>65568667
How will ARbabbies cope with using obsolete antiquated trash?

>>65568667
>M8 rifle
r8'd 8/8?

>>65568667
>>65568677
>end of the AR-15 era
>it's just an AR-10 and not even a good one

>>65568732
>AR-18 insides
Neither the SPEAR, nor the hk 416/417, nor 99% of piston ARs on the market, have AR-18 insides. Slapping in a short- stroke piston isn't enough, you need the double rods and the little square-ish BCG if you want to call it AR-18 guts

>>65568705
Statistics since WWI have shown that most infantry combat occurs within 100m, and virtually all of it occurs within 400m. Exceptions are just that... exceptions. Even in Afghanistan, an awful lot of combat occurred at close range because people fought in and around buildings.

Also, most people have a really hard time hitting a man-sized target with unguided ballistic slugs from half a mile away while under fire themselves. That's where HE really shines, particularly if it's guided HE. SPIW and OICW had the right idea, but the execution simply wasn't there. Lightweight carbines firing lightweight ammo for engagements under 400m, combined with some form of rapid HE delivery system for targets at longer ranges or under cover, is probably the optimal solution.

>>65568778
Statistics show absolute SHIT faggot. Ukraine is a one off thing

Is the M7/M8 actually a bad idea or are you guys just too attached to 5.56?

This thing is going to be the M14 all over again except this time it's going to be sandwiched between the M16 at both ends.

>>65568855
It's shit. It really is. It's heavy, expensive, unreliable and they haven't even managed to sort out the ammo manufacturing yet.

>>65568855
It’s probably irrelevant regardless but inherently stupid as the idea of battle rifles was a proven failure 70 years ago, 50 years ago, 30 years ago, and 10 years ago but we’re bringing it back anyways because generals are retarded.

>>65568868
Ukraine and Gaza with endless footage of the value (virtue) of being able to do a controlled magdump should have ended this program.

But alas.

The optics system is cool tho. That's going to stay.

>>65568855
Actually bad.

>>65568855
It’s a decent idea that needs refining, with a greater amount of development that can be done for the round.
Most people in here just don’t like Sig because of the firearm equivalent of console wars.

>>65568702
Nope that's the point of super-high pressure, you can get long-barrel performance out of a short barrel. Obviously you could get even more performance from a longer barrel but that's not what was in the requirements.

>>65568891
Objectively false brand love.

>U wot M8

>>65568855
It's not a bad idea
It's an idea so staggeringly retarded that it's hard to put into words

>>65568855
It's alright I guess but the guns built for it are dumb and I can only imagine how nightmarish a case separation would be. There's gotta be a better solution than a 2 piece case. At the very least if we're gonna go 2 piece why not copy the self-destructing cases a lot of tanks use? Then you have a reloadable primer section that also can obturate while giving you extra powder and thus smaller cartridges. It's like caseless but shittier yet somehow better than brass/steel

>>65568855
imagine a real general needing a new standard issue rifle for his troops and soliciting his cod playing failson for advice on the matter and you have this gun

>>65568855
it is literally a massive waste of money

>>65568877
>The optics system is cool tho. That's going to stay.
Bro the optics are the most fucked parts of this. They are already in the trash, and we're the impetus for the program to begin with kek

>>65568721
>I fully expect the same to happen with the P320/M17/M18s being replaced by the P385s too
That'd be a good idea.

>>65568755
>Neither the SPEAR, nor the hk 416/417 have AR-18 insides. Slapping in a short- stroke piston isn't enough, you need the double rods...
The MCX does have the dual recoil spring and dual guide rod system.

>>65568855
>Is the M7/M8 actually a bad idea
The 80k PSI ammo has potential but was implemented really poorly by SIG because SIG wanted to evade the NAS3 patent and Hornady's patent, .277 Fury/6.8x51 NATO has been proven to be ballistically inferior to the 6.5 Creedmoor the military already used. Furthermore, the rifles themselves had potential as great DMRs, but making the gun the standard infantry rifle is a bad idea; plus, SIG QA/QC is hard to trust nowadays. The British SAS had problems with the original Spear in 5.56 and they had problems with the 9mm MPX.

>>65569048
>80k PSI
They're currently upping that pressure to around 105k, per SIG themselves, because they've had to chop the barrel length so many times to save weight. The rifle doesn't even do what it was designed to do anymore and the correct cartridge that would make it perform as expected doesn't even exist yet. It's such an unbelievable clusterfuck I'm surprised heads haven't rolled.

>>65569080
>They're currently upping that pressure to around 105k, per SIG themselve
I'd really like to see the fireball that comes out the end of this thing without the suppressor.

>>65569080
>They're currently upping that pressure to around 105k
They can up it to whatever they want. The high-pressure ammo needs a thicker barrel so the gun ends up equally overweight despite being a bit shorter.
>The rifle doesn't even do what it was designed to do anymore and the correct cartridge that would make it perform as expected doesn't even exist yet.
We both agree on that.

>>65569080
Still wouldn't do anything to armor that current cartridges already do, as it still needs tungsten penetrators to defeat Russian and Chinese equivalents of level iv plates
(Let's ignore how unlikely the average infantryman of those two armies will get armor in the first place)

>>65568726
its not a peer on peer war if one side completely dominates the other in every aspect...

>>65568862
>they haven't even managed to sort out the ammo manufacturing yet
Perhaps it's a worthy successor the the AR-15 after all

>>65569094
>The high-pressure ammo needs a thicker barrel so the gun ends up equally overweight despite being a bit shorter.
And not just that, but you are also drastically decreasing parts and barrel life. All other issue's (of which there are many) aside, it's going to be a logistical nightmare.

>>65568726
>both sides have zero air force
Russia had an air force, but it was completely taken out by Western AA.

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Based

>nogunz thread

>>65569105
Who dominates the other?

>>65569099
>(Let's ignore how unlikely the average infantryman of those two armies will get armor in the first place)
Chingchongs have armor. Not exceptional armor, but it is certainly armor. Russoids are a huge grabbag that I'd need to be more up to date with the war to speak on.

>>65568724
you're so obviously a seething nogunz whose only exposure to firearms is through media

>>65568855
Its not even 5.56, its specifically the AR15 for these homos

>>65568804
Is WWI a one-off thing?
WWII?
Korea?
Vietnam?
Iraq?
They all show the same results, and that's just from US reporting. Most infantry combat occurs within 100m, and almost all of it within 400m.

>>65568855
The US Army spent ~20 years trying to make a lighter weapon and round through the LSAT program and its CTSAS follow-on. The whole point was to reduce the soldier's burden and/or free him up to carry new stuff.
All of that work was thrown away in favor of a much *heavier* weapon with much heavier ammo. Despite the fact that guided HE, in the form of everything from microdrones to 40mm laser-guided missiles, is proliferating, and calls for guided fires/air are (at least for the US) faster and easier than ever.

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>>65569133
You know it's rude to talk about yourself like that

>>65568667
So, does this mean that anti-gunners will stop calling the AR15 a "military weapon" now?

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>>65568855
Its a good DMR replacement if they ditched the Sig hybrid case and switched to Federal +Peak cases. A true Assault DMR but it should be allocated to 1 per squad and it should replace 7.62x51 not 5.56. Decent product that can be improved, terrible doctrine/execution of rollout. Its lighter, got better sectional density, better aerodynamics, more armor penetration, longer range and terminal performace of tissue than 7.62x51 and its basically the same thing 6.8x51. Its basically necked down supercharged .308

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>>65569226
God willing, though I'm not holding my breath

>>65568723
M8 was never planned to exist at all. The M7 was so shit they had to design a lighter version. Why they didn't call it the M7A1 is another mystery.

>>65568755
Neither the L85 or G36 have double recoil spring rods tho.

M7 Carbine has a shorter service life then the M14?

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>>65568667
>US buys 50,000 M7s
>to replace 500,000 M4s

>>65569338
>M7 Even shorter life than M14?
Well obviously.
7 is only half of 14.

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>>65569354
It's probably only going to soldiers whose job is to be riflemen. If you drive a vehicle, are a medic, an engineer, crew a weapons system, you get the idea, you probably get an M4. I doubt they are stupid enough to do picrel again.

>>65568677
>I'm glad everyone who bullied me is now proven wrong by
>the army not adopting a bullpup??
nigga shut up

>>65569376
Lol ur rifle is obsolete and bad because it's been replaced

>>65569372
That's what they are doing but now having a mix of 5.56 and 6.8 creates the same logi issues that lead to 5.56 replacing .30 carbine 50 years ago.

>>65569378
so is yours then >>65569207

>>65569384
Not really. Before we had 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. Now we'll have 5.56 and 6.8, I can't see 7.62 sticking around in this environment.

>>65569392
True.

>>65569385
I'm aware, but I'm not the one who's been saying that if a gun leaves service it's shit for the last several years. I believe the Germans have a word for this, shattenfreud or something like that. Now ARfags have to admit one of two things, either they were wrong and current service has no bearing on a weapon's quality or their rifle is obsolete by their own logic. Either way I have the opportunity to be a smug little shit and I'm gonna be smug

>>65569415
AR15 derivatives are still in service in SOF in the US army and across several other militaries.
> Either way I have the opportunity to be a smug little shit and I'm gonna be smug
yeah thats obviously whats motivating you and not any discussion rooted in reality.

>>65569207
Damn bodied that freak with the old "I'm rubber you're glue".

>>65569392
Well I think that has a lot to do with NATO and our potential future within it and operating alongside it. 7.62 NATO is likely to stick around for at least another decade or two unless Europe completely decouples their defense from us and never adopts 6.8 in any capacity. This is further compounded by the fact that 6.8 isn't easily interchangeable with 7.62 so they probably won't be able to just rechamber current guns. We really missed a good thing with that plastic cased round as they were offering a relatively easy M240 rechambering, which would've made NATO adoption a breeze since everyone uses the FN MAG in some form

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Will it possible to make it completely hearing safe indoors?

>>65569509
No, and they won't do it if it was.

>>65568778
>Statistics since WWI have shown that most infantry combat occurs within 100m, and virtually all of it occurs within 400m
every time i read these unsourced statements regarding statistics the stated ranges get shrunk smaller and smaller

>>65569378
>M7 replaced M8
>hahahha this means M4 is bad
?????

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>>65569099
>>65569130
Have an infographic. Needs updating but is mostly still accurate. The whole armor situation is a grab bag. Four general camps as of late.
1. Desperados rolling steel plates and whatever else they can get their hands on. Bottom dollar Chinesium, Aliexpress, Temu, lotta financing. Yes, you can finance steel plates over there. Four easy payments. You can sort Chinese plates into five grades (S, A, B, C, D), but that's a separate conversation. These desperados are mostly rolling B and down.
2. The BR3 / DSTU-3 lightweights. PE plates, lots of them, extra coverage. Lots of soft too. Meant for fragmentation protection and light rifle. If it's a bad day they'll switch to plates able to handle steel core 5.45x39 or 7.62x39 with standoff 7.62x54R capability, or similar. Emerging new class of plates - BR4+ "Super SRTs" good for 5.45x39mm 7N24 tungsten core but need standoff versus steel core 7.62x54R threats. Strong strike face, weak backer.
3. The assaulters, who have plates ranging from 7.62x54R B-32 API rated BR5 / DSTU-6 (BR5 = GOST-6A under the old system) to extremely resilient tungsten carbide 7.62x54R 7N37 rated ones which have the specs to beat 6.8 M1184, the tungsten core AP. They significantly exceed most XSAPIs' protection. Russian outfit Filin just launched new BR5+ ones which are Silicon Carbide and apparently quite impressive. Problem is they're still heavy fucks and can run over 9lb. These "BR5+" plates do notably seem to all have standoff 12.7x108mm B-32 API capability (800 meters).
4. The gucci. Alpha and SSO both have access to nice boron carbide plates. Problem is they concede MOST tungsten threats on that. Chief among these is Alpha Group's new FORT ACP-VG, which is similar to a REV. J ESAPI in most respects overall but is good for 5.45x39mm 7N39, exceeding ESAPI's M995 requirement. Boron carbide and yet can handle good 5.45x39mm tungsten AP. Clearly an advanced plate. My understanding is that it's the very best Russia has to offer.

>>65568778
>Statistics since WWI have shown that most infantry combat occurs within 100m, and virtually all of it occurs within 400m.
That's not what they find at all. Those studies find that 10-20% of successful engagments happened past 400m, and that was without any optics or night vision, and with conscript soldiers who wouldn't even pass the rifle qualification test today.

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>>65569548
Typo, my bad, the ACP-VG is actually ACP-GV.

>>65569415
>Either way I have the opportunity to be a smug little shit and I'm gonna be smug
Yeah we can tell by you not responding to the posts calling you out for contradicting yourself like a retard lmao

>>65569548
no one is reading all of this you dumb faggot, go back to the graveyard that you created called /gq/

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>>65569567

>>65569560
Not my fault public schools failed and people see a contradiction when I'm pointing out a group's logical failure. I'm not happy that bullpups won (because they never will) but that a group of people are being hung by their own words. Now hopefully a retarded argument that I've seen used for years can finally be put to bed. That or watch them twist their logic in knots trying to explain how the AR being replaced doesn't count. My bad for debunking a bad point before discarding it, I'll be sure to keep my posts to a 3rd grade reading level next time as to not confuse everyone

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>>65569193
>They all show the same results, and that's just from US reporting. Most infantry combat occurs within 100m, and almost all of it within 400m.
>the infantry marksmanship in those studies

>>65569648
>B-but that was probably a fluke result
They're almost all like that. This is the capstone study you're ultimately quoting by the way, the one that started the path that lead to M16 and 223 replacing 7.62mm rifles. The most misquoted and misunderstood study in existence.

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>>65569659
>They're almost all like that
Picrel. There are dozens more.

>>65569648
>>65569661
What ranges are these at?

>>65569662
Art thou illiterate?

>>65569662
Disregard, I learnt how to read.
That's ok for standing, terrible for prone.

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>>65569664
>quick, stop issuing rifles since our soldiers can't employ them anyway
>issue lightweight small caliber carbines instead!
>the marksmanship of the soldiers on which this conclusion was based

>>65568740
>Near peer
>Russians & Ukrainians
lol! lmao!
Slavs are all retarded no matter which corrupt tyrant you choose.

>>65569673
Oof, I have seen children do better.

>>65569719
Hey, that's no way to talk about Greatest Generation Marksmanship!

>>65568726
you're one of those fags that "wins" arguments by doing faggotry with definitions.

>>65569719
It could have been rapid fire. It looks like snapping away at the trigger to me. - the sideways pattern.

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>>65568778
>some form of rapid HE delivery system for targets at longer ranges or under cover
It's called a mortar. No need to reinvent the wheel.

>>65568804
>ukraine is a one off thing
Thats the thing. Ukraine IS a one off thing, but not the way you want. Ukraine is uniquely suited for long distance combat because the entire country is a flat empty field of grass. The war has stalled out because both sides would simply rather *not have combat at all* than have rifleman infantry firing at each other from across a field. The conflict has devolved into a years-long slog of artillery and tunnelers and sappers because the theoretical best case scenario for the modern carbine rifle simply *didnt work*.

>>65569673
I think I've seen this report before. The conclusion was some pants on head retarded idea about issuing a full auto- only rifle firing neurotoxin darts at 2000+ rpm.