>>65577098
Most of these guys died within 20 minutes of infil and the ones who didn't wrote a book full of lies about how they killed entire villages of people.

>>65577268
cope SEAmonkey

>>65577268
Don't you have shoes to make?

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>65577268

They need to add flags on this board.

>>65577433
Based

>>65578249
and they take turns rotating doing that each guy even the driver

>>65577098
No. MACV-SOG was essentially let off the chain, the only limits were ammunition and food.
>>65577268
So the average North Veitnamese?

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>>65577098
>>65577109
The sawn-off RPD with no sights was such a dumb idea.

>>65578487
How so? You aren't shouldering that thing and trying to get a sight picture in a narrow jungle path when a horde of gooks are already magdumping you. Its just for sweeping the trees, and with tracers you just watch for impacts. They cut the sights off M60s too.

>>65578487
They were mostly shooting at ranges where you wouldn't really benefit from aiming over sights anyway, ammo was plentiful and you got a lot of capacity compared to other guns in its weight class
I think Nick Brokhausen said the only drawback was that it used belts and they had a chronic shortage (until they looted some container where tons of captured belts had been rotting away)

>>65578487
>shawty with the belt is bad
lol

>>65577098
maybe the greenlight teams, no one will probably ever know apart from them if they saw combat tho

please don't forget the non infantry operating either, there's that book written by a vietnam scout heli pilot or something and those stories are straight adrenaline

>>65577457
Bring back the IP counter sitewide, rangeban every turd world country and rape chinkshill to death with rusty bayonets covered in spicy noodle flavouring and tobasco sauce

>>65578749

>I believe in free speech
>ban everyone who I disagree with

Fucking snowflake faggots

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>>65577268
Whatever, Nguyen.
Now stop selling your barely legal age sisters to some Korean grandpa with a heart condition to feed the rest of your family.
https://v.daum.net/v/BvQATloMXW

>>65578487
It seems dumb until you remember how short engagement ranges were in the forest.
Yes it would have been better with sights for the rare longer range engagements but it was great for most of the fighting.

THIS IS ST OHIO!
I HAVE A PRAIRIE FIRE EMERGENCY!
I SAY AGAIN!
PRAIRIE FIRE EMERGENCY!
COVEY WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU?!?!?

>>65578487
Imagine being worried about sights while having no ear pro

>>65578616
>no one will probably ever know apart from them if they saw combat
Seeing as we've yet to hear of a suitcase nuke going off, I'd say probably not. At least not on a Greenlight mission

>>65577098
Tbh over 100% casualties is not good

>>65577268
That was towards the end when they were thoroughly infiltrated by moles and double agents. Nearly every South Vietnamese org was by that point, so no surprise.

>>65577268
>fecalderm hands typed this post

>>65578807
>>I believe in free speech
For Americans.
>Fucking snowflake faggots
Fucking fecaldermis having turdworlder

>>65577098
The German ww2 Brandenburgers did some crazy shit.
They'd wear enemy uniforms, drive stolen vehicles deep behind enemy lines, and hold bridges to keep them from being blown up by retreating forces. They'd also redirect enemy reinforcements by switching signs around, capture enemy officers, cut telephone cables, spread misinformation, etc.
There's a good memoir about them called Blood and Soil.

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>>65578493
I feel like just being able to land your first bullet on an unaware target 20m away would be helpful. I would have gotten some base mechanic to at least weld or clamp on some kind of front sight. This chap seems to have done that, but then he took a step back by having the bloody stock removed.

>>65581133
I really dont think 20m targets were that common. The whole reason they were there is the jungle canopy was so dense it prevented observation of Vietnamese movement from the air.

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>>65578494
We've known for a long time (maybe not during the 60s) that hip firing and point shooting is a meme. Even with great skill, it's still suboptimal. You could train to do it on a range, but combat will often present firing positions that you don't have the muscle memory for.

>The first decent set up I've seen for a shorty RPD is from some black guy.
Ain't that something.

>>65581139
>Even with great skill, it's still suboptimal.
Compared to what, trying to get a sight picture with irons you cant even see because the triple canopy is so dark? I'm not interested in some sperg argument about point shooting, but for their specific ranges, light conditions and quarters; sights were optional and mostly a snag hazard.

>>65581168
You speak as if the jungles of Vietnam are like a hedge maze. But even a maze can have straight sections. There are rivers, paths, clearings and cliffs. There are rice patties and villages. Modern shooting uses the sights even in CQB, too.

>>65581274
NTA but you're really going to lengths to ignore both reality and common sense in favor of dogma. Dogma of a different age. Using sights in close quarters, at night, etc is a very different experience with modern collimators and night irons, as opposed to basic-bitch irons, which is what you usually got stuck with in most of the 20th century.

>>65578487
>>65581133
>>65581139
These guys would spend days on the range learning how to hip fire with accuracy. Depending on the AO, engagement range was less than 15m. Because of the thick jungle and the fact that they would be out there for a few days, they carried their weapons on the slings ready to fire, because in that moment, shouldering took too much time. They would even saw-down their M79 barrels and stocks to make them much shorter.

>>65581274
It depends on the AO, right? Prairie Fire AO in Laos was just that. Mountainous and extremely dense jungle with a canopy so thick the guys couldn't even tell what the weather was doing. You would hear the enemy first before seeing them. The clearings were so few in between that the NVA would have teams waiting for SOG to use them as LZs.
The Daniel Boone AO in Cambodia was very flat and much less dense. You could see 100m easy.

Highly suggest you read John Stryker Meyer's books.

>>65579662
They had tons of sadms hidden everywhere. Maybe some of the hardest operating involve zero deaths.

>>65581133
They didn't use the RPDs for that, they had other shit like suppressed handguns

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>>65581328
Quite the opposite. I'm aware of the dogma, and saying the response is the thing ignoring common sense and reality. We're talking about iron sights here, not a foregrip, or even the forward assist of an AR. It's the epitome of "Better to have and not need than need and not have".

>>65581337
The thing about Prairie Fire was that trails and paths made by locals/vietcong would be common places for contact, since both sides used them. These paths open up the sight lines enough for iron sights to be necessary to make accurate hits.

>>65581419
That's true. Teams typically did have a pointman with a suppressed swedish K. I still think it's a no brainer for anyone on the team to have iron sights on their weapon, though.

>>65581429
>since both sides used them

This is false, and I can quote directly from Meyer's book when I get home.

SOG units didn't use trails because of how easy it was to run into enemies. They didn't know where the rest areas were, how security of the trail was handled, and it left unique foot prints where they could be tracked. If they had to cross a trail or road, a team member will extend on each flank of the trail as security, while the others would cross one by one. They stuck to the thick jungle in tight formation.
The majority of their contact was either on arrival, in which case they flew to a alternate LZ, or in the jungle.

I don't disagree that irons are useful. But I can understand in certain situations and with certain weapons, it doesn't matter. Like with the M79 or RPD. Cut down to reduce something cumbersome on long missions. Regardless, the RPD was a rare gun used. The CAR-15 was the primary weapon, and was usually hipfired on initial contact, then shouldered as the battle ensued.

>>65577098
That's a picture of a reenactment

>>65581274
This poser has never been in the jungles of Vietnam

>>65581603
What if I have?

>>65581429
POSER

>>65581508
john L plasters book says that they would use trails on occasion, especially for ambushing / snatches or when speed was more necessary than secrecy.

Fuck there is even one story about a dude who went and got posters made to put *on* the VC trails, some of which was anti-communist rhetoric, and another more flamboyant one which was boobytrapped that was of a topless woman (as pornography was illegal in NV)

I am not saying that *meyers* teams, didn't use trails, but saying that all SOG groups functioned the exact same is dumb.

Especially when the fucking hatchet forces were so big that secrecy didn't matter at all.

>>65577098
SADF recces were doing some gangster shit in Angola. They had an informal award called the "Baja 500" that was earned by doing walking 500km or more behind enemy lines, which most operators would earn.

They also had an operation where two guys got deployed via submarine off the Angola coast and then kyacked down a river blowing up bridges along the way.

>>65581646
Ambushing/capturing NVA is one thing, using the trails is a another. Meyer also talks about trail ambushes, but it's stupid to just go down trails.

Obviously every team had tactical discretion, but Recondo school trained their guys to stay off trails.

>>65581607
You haven't, you're a poser

>>65577268
>ones who didn't wrote a book full of lies about how they killed entire villages of people.
they did kill entire villages of people, though

>>65581947
Is there proof? Surely you have ISA drone footage and not just "trust me bro" first hand testimony

In this thread:
Comfy armchair operator anons at home complaining about operators with first hand knowledge...

>>65581139
>hip firing and point shooting is a meme.
It's not a meme, it's simply another aiming method intended for very specific conditions found in defensive and combat environments: close range, low light conditions, and a need for utmost speed. Outside of those conditions, the shooter is expected to use typical sight focused aiming methods.

What is known as "point shooting" is simply target focused aiming that uses the peripheral vision to ensure proper gun alignment on target while focusing on the target itself. It's the same aiming method shotgun shooters use to engage and hit small, fast flying targets, like duck, dove, and clays.

Whether holding the RPK at hip/waist level, or bringing it up to eye level, the peripheral vision can be used to observe the alignment of the barrel in order to aim a burst of fire to hit your point / area target at close ranges. Their number one job was area suppression to allow the team to break contact, and you don't need sights to accomplish that job.

>>65582147
You've never been in the jungle you poser faggot

>>65581947
>host enemy in the village
>surprise pikachu face when your village gets shot up or bombed
We also saw this in afghanistan and they cried "it's a heckin' warcrimerinos!".

>>65582361
As much as the anon crying about the missing iron sights.

>>65578831
Where can I buy one of these without having to set foot in a filthy non-drinkable tap water country?

>>65581139
Just because you're too uncoordinated to learn to point shoot, it doesn't mean you need to seethe and cope about it.

>>65581646
No one who took operating seriously used trails innajungle. I can go and dig up a book with quotes from regular Australian commanders disparaging NVA and VC fieldcraft due to their use of trails.

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>>65582712

>>65582712
>No one who took operating seriously used trails innajungle.
This. Everything I've read about LRP's / small units operating in the jungle demonstrated that it was the norm to avoid using trails as much as possible, and it was common for them to parallel trails in search of good ambush sites.

>>65582616
Poser faggot

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>>65582866
I know what you are but what am I?

>>65577098
well mossad wins their wars...

>>65581139
lol, lmfao even. hip fire has sprayed a bunch of folks just fine; if youre moving its great to keep shooting and moving.
>i cant hit shit with hip fire
skill issue

>>65581429
I don't know why none of the other anons have added this to the discussion but there is another point to shaving off your front sight is that there's less to get snagged on the vines, limbs, sticks, etc. Honestly I'm not sure why I'm replying to you specifically as all you've done is prove yourself to be a pseud.

>>65582712
MACV-SOG used trails to set up ambushes, actually.

>>65582943
Getting shot by vietcong you cannot hit hazard >>>> snag hazard, IMO.

>>65582958
You realize that if they were expecting to fight long distances they wouldn't shave down the sights, yes? God forbid one gun can't do literally everything.

>>65582616
That anon is totally right, by the way. Iron sights shouldn't be chopped off. If they are, it's worth the small effort of jury rigging them back on in some fashion.

>>65582964
Maybe I've just been in a jungle before and seen 20m sightlines plenty of times. Have you tried hitting a soda can off a berm from 20m away without irons? I have, and it's a crapshot.

>>65582971
Wow, your single anecdotal experience in a non-combat scenario in your own neck of the woods trumps the experiences of people who've actually had to deal with the rigors, stresses, heat, humidity and rain. And an enemy who is probably going to see you before you see them.

>>65582951
>aktchually the only valid use of trails is to avoid using the trail and murder people who are using it

>>65582971
>Have you tried hitting a soda can off a berm from 20m away without irons? I have, and it's a crapshot.
But you don't need to hit a soda can, you need to hit a guy or probably several and you have full auto at your disposal. Plus the idea was for it to be one half psychological weapon. Your team is too small to actually fight off large groups of men effectively so you have to look like a whole company is coming through when you start shooting, in order to give you a few precious seconds to break through the enemy cordon

>>65582971
>Have you tried hitting a soda can off a berm from 20m away without irons?
No, but I have done plenty of sneaker ranges where I shot figure 11, figure 12 and figure 13 dartmech targets at 20-50m from the patrol position (ie from the hip) and it was fine. I'm pretty sure I've even shot at figure 14s from the patrol although I think I only hit them on aimed follow ups. The fact that it's not idiot proof and requires honest to god training doesn't mean it's bad or useless.

>>65582046
Drones did not exist in the Vietnam War.

>>65582366
Burning villages and shooting innocent civilians during combat operations is, in fact, a war crime.

>>65581646
Can someone tl;dr the different teams like hatchet force, mike force, sog etc.?

>>65582361
I've visited the jungles of Thailand as a tourist with every conceivable modern convenience available to me. I can't even imagine how much it must have sucked ass to be out there for days on end in that shit, laden down with guns and gear and with someone trying to kill you. I think the guys that did it knew what they were doing and second-guessing them half a century later from a computer chair in an airconditioned rooms is absolutely ridiculous.

>>65579144
Imagine being worried about ear pro when there a retards with aks shooting at you

>>65584023
>The U.S. military extensively used jet-powered reconnaissance drones, primarily the Ryan Model 147 Lightning Bug, during the Vietnam War to gather intelligence over heavily defended areas without risking pilot lives.

Uh oh stinky!

>>65584282
Whomst are you quoting?

>>65584026
>war crime
That's not how that works. Defined laws of war apply to nations that sign off on treaties that define and agree with said laws of war. Non-signatory nations have no such protections. Entire villages can be declared unlawful combatants, and destroyed, for either participating directly in unlawful combat, or by supporting fighters directly with sanctuary, intelligence, or logistics.

Don't like it? Should have signed the fucking treaties then, bitch.

MACV-SOG

I remember when I worked at a local gym, I had a client who claimed to be MACV SOG. I didn't really believe him, but he took off his shirt for a body fat test, and the dude had about 4 gun shot scars on his upper body. Not sure if he was SOG, but he definitely got into some shit one way or another. Same dude also said he used to rig up claymores in the trees to cover them if they had to retreat, said he turned some VCs head into hamburger that way. He was a cool dude

>>65582958
They spent the majority of their time moving through the jungle and less than 1% of the time actually using them. Snag hazard is a gigantic concern, you absolute retard. Everything you've said is dumb, and yet you continue digging this hole of yours. Unreal..

>>65585264
>Snag hazard is a gigantic concern
It actually wasn't gigantic, hence the guys with every other kind of gun still having irons. NGL I'm kinda chuckling at your logic.

>>65584525
The Wikipedia page

>>65577457
>>65584733
North Vietnam was a signatory state to the Geneva Conventions. Also justifying committing what the civilized world has all agreed are war crimes because you think you found a clever legal loophole is morally bankrupt and extremely semitic.

>>65585377
>because you think you found a clever legal loophole
weird way to call the vietcong

You guys are so fucking stupid dude. An opening fusillade, in the general direction. Violence of action- and suppression in order to menuever is what this is all about. Especially when going against guerilla fighters that literally take potshots and disappear into a fucking hole in the earth immediately afterwards. It's not like a fucking pitched Napoleonic battle or a world war 2/ korea battle in the open. Don't you think a platoon all holding small belt fed mgs, bags of grenades and grenade launchers is going to be far more effective than taking any kind of aimed shot? There is no aming in the jungle you fucking retards.

>Prepping the tree line
Grenadiers would literally just pepper the fucking trees where any suspected activity was in an AO.

Like what don't you get? There's a reason they all carried 15 grenades on them these guys are going for COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS. Not big army occupation, and patrols around hard points. With a rifle, (bare minimum fighting implement) these dudes were operating on the impetus of maximum efficiency in jungle environments against specific combats using specific tactics.

>>65585404
Christ thank you. These people talking about effective long range engagements and winning fights, where in reality all the SOG team was trying to do is break contact as soon as fucking possible and GTFO, not stick around and maintain a sustained gun battle.

>>65585358
AI post. None of what you copy+pasted had anything to do with OP.

>>65585377
>North Vietnam was a signatory state to the Geneva Convention
The Viet Cong weren't.
>what the civilized world has all agreed
Meaningless bullshit typed by the fingers of a giant pussy. The "civilized world" doesn't think their citizens should be able to own or carry firearms to defend themselves, and yet my nation does.

Fuck off. Pussy.

>>65584065
MACV-SOG - material assistance command Vietnam - "Studies and Observations Group"
The team names for SOG were either snakes & states, so you may see team "anaconda" or team "montana"

Hatchet force was what the original head of SOG wanted to do fullscale, which was instead of 4 man (with 8 indigenous) personal doing LRRP into cambodia, laos, or even areas within southern vietnam, it would have been a platoon of green berets, and a large amount of indigenous staff. Essentially, it would have been many hit and run tactics in the NVA supply stores.

mike force or mobile strike command force (i may be forgetting this particular acronym, the SOG one was specifically chosen to cast doubt on the units intention,) was the green berets who specifically trained indig. personal and fought with them.

Sorry for the long wait in reply anon

>>65585377
It's amusing to me you somehow are standing on a moral highground that north vietnam was a signatory, but was committing warcrimes, as well as massive crimes against humanity.

Kinda weird how they would go in with a fucking list of who to kill in a bunch of their activity.

South vietnam wasn't exactly paradise, but compared to north vietnam? Yeah i'm choosing the south.

>>65585514
It's no wonder they lost if they just wasted their ammo on trees and ran away whenever the enemy attack. You need decisive victories to beat an organised enemy.

>>65584733
>That's not how that works.
That is exactly how it works.

>>65586326
In you're retarded mind? Sure. Not in the real world, and that's the only world that matters.

>>65577098
When you change your ROE to "shoot every gook", shit becomes infinitely easier. What we should have done in Iraq and Afghanistan lmao.

>>65585915
I know you're only pretending to be retarded, but the North Vietnamese were officially not supposed to be in Laos or Cambodia, and neither were MACV-SOG.
At no point were small teams supposed to hold the land, the only reason they were there was the fact that the NVA were supplying the VC in the south through the Ho Chi Minh trail. And in the end the MACV-SOG recon on the Ho Chi Minh trail required the NVA to dedicate manpower and resources to secure it that would be better put to use in the actual war instead of chasing small teams of Americans around in the jungle.

>>65586534
A literal bot.

>>65585377
>>65585603

nta but it's not like the phoenix program was much different.

>>65587670
The phoenix program, had its issues, but it's entire purpose was to kill paramilitary officers / leaders. It's entire purpose was to end VC activity. That is starkly different to the north vietnamese going and routinely killing people who simply disagreed with communism. This happened more after le duan came into power, but my point is still doing a tu quoque phallacy as an argument for the legitimacy of the NV or VC crimes is dumb.

>>65578807
Here's a counterpoint: these people make every thread significantly worse by posting in it while offering no valuable contributions whatsoever, and banning them would have no downsides whatsoever.

>>65585601
>The team names for SOG were either snakes & states
There were others too, I know one area used names of tools for theirs. I just listened to a John Stryker Meyer podcast where the guest had been on RT Plumb (like plumb bob) iirc and he mentioned some other examples but I forget what they were. There are some random seeming ones like Intruder and Cutlass too.

I like their involvement in the Phoenix Program.

>>65582971
>I've been in an unspecified jungle so I know better than MACVSOG

>>65591534
Pretty much all of us know better. We've had over 50 years to analyse the war. Watch this!

>We lost because we didn't invade North Vietnam

>>65581429
>These paths open up the sight lines enough for iron sights to be necessary to make accurate hits.
Why the fuck would you need sights to spray down a trail?

>>65592399
So you can hit someone who also has sights on their rifle before they shoot you(and they will because they have sights on their rifle)

SOG burned too quickly at both ends,NVA absolutely had their number by the end,early warning systems got more sophisticated, they made scary good predictions on where SOG would land and what their targets were. The whole thing became a suicide mission because their high risk high reward strategy made every mission a desperate suicide mission regardless of the objective

>>65577098
Bunch of rambo wannabes. Aussies and Bongs did long range jungle patrols in Malaya against commies and Indons, and even did "air cavalry" much earlier and with no fanfare.

>>65593166
>predictions

>>65581139
Nah indexing is based and will make a comeback

Yeah they were awesome and very successful which is why communism was definitively defeated in Vietnam just like the Taliban was forever crushed in Afghanistan and the US changed the regime in Iran

Imagine coping this hard after getting schooled by literal peasants. The US LOST. They fucking failed in Vietnam, all those dudes died for nothing, and there's nothing you can do about it.

>>65588274
The US and the South Vietnamese government did the same exact shit in equal quantity so it's more or less irrelevant. The US probably could have achieved some its strategic objectives if it weren't commiting war crimes the entire time and just upheld their good guy narrative for the US press. They had that shit on lock in WW2 when they didn't massacre large numbers of civilians and handed out food and supplies instead.

>>65593911
>upheld their good guy narrative for the US press.
Good guys finish last, especially in armed conflict. You can't be the "good guy" when the enemy can burn your village down for siding with the "good guys". Only when you have an iron fist control of the populace can you be the "good guy", because only then can you prevent and punish the fuckers that try to break the status quo.

>They had that shit on lock in WW2 when they didn't massacre large numbers of civilians and handed out food and supplies instead.
The U.S. DID massacre large numbers of civilians in Germany and Japan alike. The fact both nations were completely bled the fuck out was the only reason they stopped fighting. The food and supplies had nothing to do with it.

Had the U.S. taken the same approach in Vietnam, Astan, and Iraq, the same result would have been achieved. Instead the U.S. opts to never bomb enemy cities into rubble, allowing them to live largely without the fear or sorrow of our enemies during WWII.

>>65593911
>The US probably could have achieved some its strategic objectives
It couldn't. At least if we take into account the context of the situation.
South Vietnam did not have the means to fight on their own, there was no way to dissuade the Soviets from continuing to back North Vietnam, and there was hesitancy in going on the offensive due to the Korean War experience.
>just upheld their good guy narrative for the US press
At this point there were too many lefty sympathizers for that.
>They had that shit on lock in WW2 when they didn't massacre large numbers of civilians
Yeah because the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were victimless.
It's not that they had anything on lock during WW2, it's just that the media at home wasn't going to try and expose every single misdeed as a way to demoralize the US and play defense for Germany or Japan.
And when US troops were shown to be misbehaving, such as media coverage of Japanese skull souvenirs, it didn't generate as much outrage as you'd think.

>>65594218
>South Vietnam did not have the means to fight on their own
They did from 1973-1975
You are a complete idiot

>>65582677
why would you want a women who went under facial reconstruction surgery in order to hide her genetic ugliness that she WILL pass onto your HAPA kids

>>65586483
You're the only retarded one here.

>>65592399
you are replying to an actual retard who is playing 'no I shot you first' with his schoolyard gun stick

>>65581429
That's why the other guys in the squad would have weapons (usually CAR-15s) with sights. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding going on here about how SOG operated and used their weapons. If they got into contact the objective was to get the fuck out of it and either lose pursuers or get extracted. These sawed-off LMGs were used to lay down a shitload of short-range suppressive fire for breaking contact, not for targeted elimination of enemies.

>>65594473
Did they win?

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>>65584023
Sorta

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>>65596476

>>65596347
>If they got into contact the objective was to get the fuck out of it and either lose pursuers or get extracted
That makes it sound like their mission was to waste resources. Also I know what the RPD was for, but it still doesn't excuse not having irons.

>>65597144
>wasting resources
It isn't wasting resources, it's quite the opposite. You don't have to dog headedly expect units to engage in stand up fights they would surely lose when getting into fire fights isn't even part of their mission

>>65597144
They were recon. Their job was to sneak around observing the enemy, planting surveillance equipment, stealing intel if they could, etc. When shit went well they didn't fire a shot. When it didn't it turned into "Current Objective: Survive" and getting out with the intel and the team intact for the next mission mattered a hell of a lot more than burning a bunch of ammo, especially considering the RPDs were using captured ammo they had no other use for anyway.

>>65597144
Macvsog did psychological ops. Not direct action. They were cool but ultimately not very successful

>>65594056
>You can't be the "good guy" when the enemy can burn your village down for siding with the "good guys"
Nobody in North Vietnam could burn a village in the United States :^)

>>65578807
let's be real, poos, slavs, niggers and chinks have nothing to add. We might as well be letting cats and dogs post too.

>>65577098
my grandpa was a korea and vietname vet and collector, he had a macvsog knife that he gave to me back in 2008 but I ended up losing it, 2024 was the last time I saw it and I don't know where it is for the life of me
I'm considering buying a "SOG Bowie 2.0" basically one of the anniversary/tribute replicas but I don't know

>>65600148
SOG sold its soul to China a long time ago. If you want a SOG, look for an older one on the secondary market.

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green light teams were kamikaze special forces teams employed in Europe to blow things up with suitcase nukes