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/gq/ Infographic Emporium:
https://imgur.com/a/gq-infographic-emporium-1-00-1lZ5xw6
Legacy Infographic Reserve: https://imgur.com/a/k-infographic-reserve-AIKzwWF

>Last time on /gq/, thread king A2Grip was reported KIA by the /arg/onauts doing mercenary action in Yemen after not being seen for months (RIP). Gilliam Arms hosted an AMA, and Trash Sniper bought plates.

>QUICK ARMOR GUIDE 2.178
CODE: * = active NIJ-cert, ^ = NEEDS SOFT ARMOR, DND = do not drop, ** = military.
>Special Rifle Threat:
/pfg/: Protech X-CAL LP^DND (Last ditch option!)
Budget: Hesco L211
Mid-Range: Hesco M210
High-End: Hesco U210 / U211, LSAPI**, or Tencate CR-6450SA.
>CONUS Minimum (M80, M855, M193):
Budget: Hesco 3611C, SAPI**^, or Gilliam 6001
Mid-Range: Hesco 3612* or 3810*
High-End: Hesco 3811* or 3811LV^DND
Elite: Used Cercom CER-EMH**^
>CONUS Medium (M80 + M855A1 or BZ API):
Budget: Protech 2120-5
Mid-Range: Hesco 3411* or LTC 19513
High-End: LTC 28780**
Elite: VelSys PBZSA**DND or Hesco SC3812 or Protech DT306C-HW
Elite-Plus: Used Ceradyne MH3 CQB**^DND (10x M995)
>CONUS Optimal (M855A1 + M80A1):
Budget: Highcom 3S9 (SAPI-cut)
Mid-Range: Used LTC 28550** / 28590** or Highcom 3S9M* (SAPI-cut!)
High-End: Used LTC 28595**
Elite: Used LTC 28570** or VelSys TSA**
Elite-Plus: Tyr XHA4/S6/T(DND) or GEN 6 LTC TSA**
>Level IV / CONUS High (.30-06 M2AP):
/pfg/: Used Protech 2014G (last ditch option)
Budget: Gilliam 1023, Protech 2014MC, or Hesco 4403*
Mid-Range: Hesco 4601* or ESAPI**^ (REV. G-J)
High-End: Hesco 4800(DND), 4800LV^DND, or Protech 9812-R1(DND)
Elite: Tencate CXP-800 SA or Ceradyne SOF ESAPI MK.II**^DND or Adept Emperor
Elite-Plus: Ceradyne SAEC**DND(??)
>Level IV+ / CONUS Extreme (Various)
Budget: Protech 2230 / Hesco-Protech 2230-1 (M2AP at +600ft/s) or Gilliam 8002 (.300 Winmag Swiss P AP)
Mid-Range: Adept Colossus (7.62x51 Swiss P AP) or REV. C XSAPI**^ (M993)
High-End: Rev. D XSAPI**^ (7N37?)
Elite: ECSAPI** (M993)
Elite-Plus: Ceradyne 96034** (7.62x51 Swiss P)

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Pretty cool find on Taobao: Fort Technologies ACP-G plates for 900 a pair. These are used by the FSB so pretty weird seeing them in Chinese hands.

Listing roughly translates to "Russian Original Fort board, ceramic plate set, what you see is what you get, used"

>>65592670

Someone traded those for something. A trip out of the country and into hiding, perhaps?

>>65592693
Philly Trash Sniper RF1 status. Always refresh before the posting

>>65592670
They're not too shabby. 8.5lb for a 10x13 but rated for numerous hits of 7.62x54 B-32 API and M995. Also tested to stop M993. Hexagonal SiC tile array, is technically ICW. Estimated to be good for up to seven M993 if spacing is favorable and they're backed.
They were replaced by the ACP-M around 2020, which is half a pound heavier but adds 7N37 and standoff 12.7x108mm B-32 API capability. Also comes in an 11x14" "Siberian" full torso version for heavy assaults.
Odds are decent there is an "ACP-M2" rated for the newer 7N51 at this point.
>>65592681
ACP-Gs can be fairly old, around 2015 at the earliest, so the plates could have changed hands several times, kinda like how USSOCOM plates were showing up at the "Taiwanese Auction House" way back when. $900 a pair is a good price for a Colossus sidegrade.

Would be interesting to compare this to the Gilliam 8002 GEN-II, since that's claiming at least M993 defeat at 6.75lb 10x12 standalone.

>>65592693
Good to hear. That reminds me. Now that the NFA is partially dick-kicked, I think there will be a meme push for concealable PCCs and SBSs, which changes threat dynamics for soft armor.
Odds are good IMO, that at some point, NIJ will add an "HG3" rating meant for select 5.7, 7.62x25, 12 gauge 3" 1oz, and fast "street" threats like Liberty Civil.
Also need to figure out ways to prep for "ambient armor" - I think Jake Ganor is onto something with that.
>Chinatown
You know, those food delivery robots could probably push a shield...

>>65592490
>4403s keked
Fuckin' rip. I imagine 4401s are gonna have similar problems?

>>65592727
>4403s
They stop M2AP at or below NIJ requirements fine, and maintain active cert under both 0101.06 and under 0101.07 as the RF3-400. The issue is that they fail a hair over NIJ velocity. Basically zero safety margin. You can design plates to beat M2AP at 2,910 but lose at 2,950. NIJ raised M2AP velocity by a mere 30ft/s between 0101.04 and 0101.06, along with conditioning tests, showing it does make a difference.
If you're not being engaged by a dude with .300 Winmag or above M2AP reloads, you're good.
>I imagine 4401s are gonna have similar problems?
Most likely yes. It's endemic to Hesco's design philosophy, which is demonstrably:
1. Focus on reducing weight.
2. Offer at least some multi-hit.
3. Plates only need to pass the requirements.
The only Hesco Level IVs with a degree of safety margin are the 4601, 4K10 (this one is iffy since it just got reinstated after a suspension), and whatever the Protech 2230-1 is. What those have in common is that they're dual-rated III + IV plates, so they have additional backer strength.

Repeating my question from the last thread: any experience with 4 mag placards on medium plate carriers, specifically ones with tubes cummerbunds? Is there overhang, and if so, does it cause issues?

>>65593209
Don't have one, I would assume there would be some overhang but I don't think it would impede movement/tube access that much on a medium.

Shaw's Arc placard with Quad ram inserts look pretty flush.

>>65593209
I havent used tubes, but I have used a UT gear quad on an AVS, the overhang was maybe a cm on either side of the plate bag, definitely less than half an inch. If you had MBAV plate bags it might not overhang at all. I stopped using it because it made it difficult to access the ferro buckles I had, tubes would almost certainly have fixed it but I didnt have the cash for a new cummerbund setup and the extra mag wasnt really urgent. Fwiw I do think 4 mags is the future, I just didnt commit to it.

>>65593279
six mags is more the future

>>65592714
Hoping for a full kick. There is some state fuckery here that we’re not fully clear of yet. I look forward to hg3 and will have to read further. Yes for shield, plus they could deliver those delicious egg rolls. I personally think we will see a new decade of various arp formats. What caliber? Who knows.

>>65593342
Six? What about seven?

>>65593409
With NAS3 there's plenty of options. I think the AP pistol ammo ban will get sacked next. Would be a great bellwether to see how cops really stand on 2A.

>>65593410
>6-7
at that point go all out IMO. Twelve or 18 in a split rig.

>>65592714
>>65593409
>>65593432

So basically RF1 is the new bare minimum, with RF2 the new gold standard because M855 out of ARPs will be a common thing. Side plates are gonna be a must too. What a time to be alive.

>>65593726
yeah RF1 is gonna be sketch in the city. Hypothetical higher pressure M855 out of an ARP will be able to challenge them at least on a v50 basis.
I think that's what Stealth Armor Systems is trying to address with the latest iterations of DragonSkin. Lighter, enhanced coverage, no higher than RF2. I think the new B4C version is 3.4psf areal density, so that's about 2.9lb for a 10x12. Neatly 3x the weight of typical IIIA soft armor, so scale that to soft armor cuts as you please.

Think this is actually III and not mislabeled IIIA? It's 5 pounds so given that Botach's 10x12 III is 3.5 the math checks out.

https://surplus.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iii-11-x-14-ballistic-blanket-panel-new-old-stock/?

>>65593806
the label says III.

>>65593820

Yeah, but it's a soft ballistic blanket, not hard armor like virtually all other III, and it's being sold as clearance surplus. Little bit suspicious.

>>65593832
There is RF1 "soft" armor now. It's just unpressed PE and is barely flexible.
https://www.readynow-tactical.com/shop/SOFT-PERSONAL-BODY-ARMOR-RF1-Rifle-Rated-RNT-240-RF1-p694733596
Alternatively there's two other explanations:
1. The "blanket" is just a III PE plate in an 11x14 full cut. This is more probable and it's a plate, not a blanket.
2. It is actually mislabeled IIIA like you're saying. Problem is that these are from 2022 and the warranty is ten years. Warranty is still effective so it's Botach's ass if these are really only IIIA. They're not gonna risk losing the farm for ninety bucks a pop. Armor companies usually carry at least $1M in liability insurance (Highcom carries a $10M policy) but a dead guy on the skreets can be a lot more than that. I think Toyobo had to settle for almost $30M in the Zylon case.
Note that Botach waited until the warranties on the $50 Hesco 4400s and $90 4600s were all expired before selling those, because they likely had no confidence in the plates meeting spec. Once the warranty is off, you're out of luck.

>>65593279
That's actually the exact placard I was looking at, overhang that minimal shouldn't be a problem

>>65593880

Yeah, I doubt Botach has that sort of soft RF1 given that only one company seems to make it. I'm wondering if it's mislabeled soft IIIA; even so it'd make a good backer for a pasta III, make it proper RF1 since backing a pasta plate with soft IIIA stops even M855 from a 16" barrel at like 25 feet. Wonder if that works with Botach III plates too, given their obvious cheat ring even for all-PE. Might be an interesting budget RF1/RF2 "lite" solution for the streets.

>>65594038
I'd say make some straps and use it as a buckler or cheapo gunshield.
>I doubt Botach has that sort of soft RF1 given that only one company seems to make it
Eh, it's not really "soft" - it's a plate that has a slight bendability to it. Four pounds for $500 a pop RF1 is also piss poor, so they aren't using tip top materials and design. Hesco 3801 meets same requirements and is under 2lb for $525 a plate.
One thing with flexible armor is that it only bends as you move. Multi-curve plates like the 3801 already have several bends built in.

>>65594069

Interesting that low-end 0101.06 III PEs can be treated as RF1/RF2 ICW IIIAs, since adding the second layer of soft armor apparently stops shit like MSC and M855 out of carbine-length barrels. I'm actually more interested in that sort of setup since it's drop-immune and will stop even modern street threats like M855 out of ARPs.

>>65594158
I think it's just sheer amount of material. High end PE plates either use better grades of UHMWPE and focus on pure RF1 or bare III (no 7.62x39 MSC) at minimum weight (using trauma padding strategically to control BFD and reduce weight), or they go full bore and offer RF2 straight up at weight comparable to SiC-PE ceramic designs, but totally drop proof.

This does beg the question of why Gilliam doesn't offer a "Fat Helion" offering RF2 capability. Rough examples show an RF2 PE plate is about twice the weight of a counterpart RF1. Compare Hesco 3801 to Combat Systems RF2. 2.5lb Helion would be about five pounds for full RF2. That's not great but not bad at all if you really harp on ceramic drop protection. A moderate improvement on the 5.2lb DTS855 M855 rated PE plate from 2009.
PE is only a non-starter once you get to M855A1 and up. DKX tried to R&D an all-PE Level IV called the MAX IV back in 2012 but it never went anywhere.
https://defensereview.com/dkx-max-iii-and-developmental-max-iv-lightweight-multi-hitdrop-resistant-dyneema-floaty-armor-maritime-hard-armor-plates-at-shot-show-2012-video/
Rough estimates are it'd be over eight pounds and 2" thick, IMO.

>>65594206

I'm more interested in ways to turn shitty zero-overhead 0101.06 PE IIIs into proper RF1s for minimal cost, or even turn bargain basement RF1s into a kind of RF2 "lite" plate that can handle M855 at 16" barrel velocities, which is kind of the maximum hood threat unless you're raiding their fent fortresses (and if you are, you're a LEO with credentials and a BVP grant who can afford good stuff like Hesco and Protech). Think cheap-ass $100 0101.06 III plates from Longfri, Botach, Jinwudun, etc. Something easily sourced by the /pfg/ crowd on a Wendy's employee budget, but enough to keep you alive in the ghetto on a Friday night until you can get to your car. The Crips are NOT shooting at you with .338 SLAP, they've got 10.3" ARPs with dem green tips at best. You can always get some good Level IVs for when the big boys show up with M855A1, this is for getting in and out of the hood against low-tier threats.

tl;dr: More interested in turning bargain basement Chinesium budget plates into something still useful in a fairly low-AP environment.

>>65594206
Gilliam 6001 4.1 pds SA RF2... 6002 5 pds SA RF2 M855A1

>>65594355
No free lunch rule strikes again. Neither is drop immune like an all-PE RF2 plate, said all-PE plate is also buoyant, and said all-PE plate can also space shots tighter and has more multi-hit. Ceramics generally need minimum 2" spacing between hits. You get two M855 with the second closer than 2" to the first, you're cooked. Lastly, because it's basically all backer it will do magnum non-AP better like a .375 H&H or whatever. Adept's titanium-PE plate has some standoff ability versus .50 M33.
There's always ups and downs. This PE plate will get smoked by M855A1, but if that's not in the threat model, you can concede.

>>65594408

If you went full retard with money and accepted like an 7-10 pound weight and up to like 1.5" thickness, could you do some ridiculous 11x14" shooters cut titanium-PE hybrid that could tank wacky threats like multi-hit M855A1 or single M33 ball? Drop-proof assault infantry SARVIP kinda thing?

>>65594253
>I'm more interested in ways to turn shitty zero-overhead 0101.06 PE IIIs into proper RF1s for minimal cost
Well, when in doubt, back with IIIA. That fails, back it twice. Weight sucks but you can get cheap expired IIIA on ebay.
>into a kind of RF2 "lite" plate that can handle M855 at 16" barrel velocities
We need more data than a buff video or two. There's a reason why companies don't advertise reduced M855 velocities wholesale for PEs, even though an M855 v50 would be an excellent metric for comparing PE plate strength.
>which is kind of the maximum hood threat unless you're raiding their fent fortresses
A1, maybe. Worse, if legit black tip is present that's a bad situation. Get a shield and strap a plate on it.
>The Crips are NOT shooting at you with .338 SLAP
BC-8s and the eventual Palmetto Sabre Lancet .50 might change the high end a bit. $1.2k with a BC-8 (add a $200 monstrum scope because who cares lol) and M2AP reloads from some small time operation for like $5 a shot gets you in the IV-busting game for three ARPs.

>>65594436

The Crips ain't rolling smalltime passerby with M2AP, they're saving the good shit (if they have any) for major threats and protecting their fent fortresses. That's why I argue that ARP M855 is the max you're gonna face unless they've majorly got you on your radar or you roll up to their stash house with your own raid crew. If either applies to you, you're either a LEO with credential-blocked plates or should've bugged out long before.

As for M855, this is the video I'm referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrmeNtNjpNc

I think most companies don't post reduced velocity M855 as a threat metric because they don't want to be liable if shit goes south. All it takes is a couple extra inches of barrel and wew lad you've got a hole. Of course sketchy companies like AR500 and RMA don't give a shit and will put M855 on their steel plate ammo lists, with the velocity in the fine print.

>>65594253
>pfg/ crowd on a Wendy's employee
Stretch, NOBODY at Wendy's is buying armor.

>>65594472
>you roll up to their stash house with your own raid crew
Who tf is even doing this? Vivid imagination brah.

>>65594512

But if they DID, they could afford that setup. That's what I'm going for. Something even a Wendy's wagie could handle.

>>65594519

It's called a rhetorical question. How would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning?

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>>65594434
The new Adept Mantis already does M855A1 multi-hit at 5.2lb 10x12" shooters. Make it 11x14 shooters, you're at 6.7lb. Only thing left is to reduce standoff versus .50 BMG M33 FMJ. I believe the distance is 800 meters. You can easily cut that down to nothing with two extra pounds in the plate. It'll be costly, but I'd reckon that's what Adept might actually be going for with the Level IV "Super Mantis" which is impliedly upcoming.
>>65594472
>The Crips ain't rolling smalltime passerby with M2AP
Liable to change. IMO, M2AP is an "ambient" threat. It's out there. The guns are out there. It's just not being deployed because nobody is doing a drive by with a 26" - it'll be an assassination weapon.
>That's why I argue that ARP M855 is the max you're gonna face unless they've majorly got you on your radar or you roll up to their stash house with your own raid crew.
Likely true, but if M855+ emerges then you're basically facing M855 at "normal" velocity out of shorter barrels using NAS3 casing. I'd rather not be caught with my pants down on that.
>If either applies to you, you're either a LEO with credential-blocked plates
Credentials come in multiple levels and really most blocked plates aren't much to write home about until you get to the $3,500/set and up wizard tier. For the most part it's gonna be "Hesco, add 0.5lb to the 4601 so it stops M993!" or "Protech, gimme a IV which stops M2AP 600ft/s faster than required!" - with $$$ plates like the Hesco SC3812, rumored 3885, LTC 24855, the "real" 4801, etc exceptions.
>I think most companies don't post reduced velocity M855 as a threat metric because they don't want to be liable if shit goes south.
Hesco is very explicit the 4403 and 4800's max velocity for M2AP is 2,910ft/s, which it is, and they're not on the hook for anything if shots exceed the plate's rating.
ESAPIs have failed against out of spec threats. No liability there. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-110hhrg37812/html/CHRG-110hhrg37812.htm

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>>65594512
Chief you can buy ceramic plates for $90 a set shipped. They're terrible but work as a very last ditch.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1213617745
If you don't want to play the soft armor games since those are hard on ICW, Highcom AR1000 steel plates for $160 a set.
https://tacticaledgeandarmor.com/product/highcom-guardian-ar1000-level-3p-body-armor-plate/
Both of the above options are really bad and only make sense if you're dead, dead broke. Even a guy working part time at Wendy's, doing 20 hours a week / $11.45 an hour, can save up for Paraclete 10800s assuming he's on the dole for most other expenses. That's $200 a set. These are actually serviceable and compare to the Hesco 4401.
https://surplus.botach.com/point-blank-paraclete-10800-10x12-nij-level-iv-hard-armor-plates-set-police-trade/
>>65594519
NTA but he's probably doing a good ole SHTF larp.

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>>65594620
>But if they DID, they could afford that setup. That's what I'm going for. Something even a Wendy's wagie could handle.
I support your mission, in spite of the debating over how reliable PE is against a round that is well known for piercing PE. IMO, shouldn't be relying on just one video and one example. NIJ tests three dozen plates for a reason.
>>65594472
>Of course sketchy companies like AR500 and RMA don't give a shit and will put M855 on their steel plate ammo lists, with the velocity in the fine print.
M193. M855 is easily stopped by steel plates. Man, does anyone remember RMA's steel plate? shit backspalled so bad it had like 35mm BFD versus M80. I think it was mfg'd by Spartan and rebranded?
There's a reason why they memoryholed that one, me thinks, along with the 1145 and their pre-2013 plates back when the company was called RMA Supply. Believe it or not RMA has actually been improving, just as steel armor has been. They'll get there when digital NV gets there.

Wendy's guy needs a shield. Maybe this United Shield Kent and put that shit on PayPal Credit 12 month payment plan.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/227150018033

I'm sure it's been asked 1000 times but what's the best way to make lens and goggles anti-fog?

>>65594701

I forgot /gq/ is too autistic to understand sarcasm, especially in a rhetorical context. The idea is nobody's raiding a stash house so the worst you will catch is M855 from some wannabe's ARP because you've kept a low profile from the gangbangers with the relatively heavy ordnance. This isn't Cyberpunk, these guys normally focus more on concealment so unless you raid their shit switched Glocks and ARPs are all you need to be worried about. Anything bigger and you've deliberately put yourself in that situation, and should've brought your Level IV plates if you were gonna do that.

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>>65594754
>The year is 2027
>You look outside the window. After 500% tariffs, the world has become a fuck.
>You duck inside, hearing the quadcopter drones imported from vietnam but actually relabeled in cambodia but REALLY made in China, gotta love triangle shipping, crashing into people's hamster apartments.
>You grab your trusty turkshit shotgun, the only thing affordable in this trouble age.
>It has a v5 actually-waterproof-IP67 SMSLaser HFXC. You had to do some funky shit to get around sanctions for this one.
>You load the 15 round stick magazine with a 3D-printed extension you had to download the file for off of Usenet. rec.guns.
>Fuck gotta do it again one of the shells turned into an oval.
>You don your thermal poncho, longslide 5.7 with ultra-AP bullets made using asteroid-mined iridium carbide cores, courtesy of Martian Emperor Musk I's mining corps, and a Level IV Militech helmet.
>On top of the helmet is a pair of digital-fusion Nvg4th binos. You pop them down, each with a Vapcell N69 battery inside. 6900mah 18650. Yeah. It explodes if you look at it funny.
>You aren't looking at it funny.
>You head outside your .50 cal armored shitbox apartment door.
>The dick next door hits you with his knockoff SOTAC LA-12 GLIS.
>An entire fucking watt of green laser hits you in the eyes, blinding you permanently.
>He then nails you in the dick with iridium carbide quadrangular buckshot from Xguns, formerly twitter.
>You die.
>Should have worn a militech battle skirt.
This is how it happened. This is how Johnny Silvergrip died.

>>65594723

If it wasn't obvious, I'm Nerfanon, champion of all things /pfg/. We need a modern /bag/ equivalent of the classic $50 Chinesium digital mono, and the X-CUH ain't it given just how much IIIA softs you need to pile underneath it to work, to say nothing of its shitty no-drop, single-strike SRT status. My current rig is an AR500 IIIA plate as a strike face in front of a pasta III, according to /gq/ that's an AR500 A3 equivalent and is effectively RF1+/RF2 "lite", stopping all RF1 threats and handling M855 out of ARPs. Since Gilliam is getting out of the budget Chinesium game I'm just trying to find the next best thing you can get on a Wendy's employee-tier budget, especially since /pfg/ can't afford good shipping insurance so you know that box is gonna get frisbee'd across the warehouse hard enough to turn a Highcoom 4SUS4 into baby powder.

Protip: You can stack plate carriers if your wacky plate combo won't fit in one platebag. Brotach sells $20 rebranded VISM Discreets with fast shipping, perfect for the /pfg/ crowd since the majority of cheap Brotach copsurp plates are square and budget Amazon plate carriers only hold shooter's cut.

>>65594745

I hear Cat Crap is good. $11 on Amazon for a little container of it.

>>65594620
>How would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning?
I would feel the same, I never eat breakfast. But that is non sequitur. Why would you ask that?

>>65594620
>That's what I'm going for. Something even a Wendy's wagie could handle.
Just say you work at Wendy's, brah. I met an ex-biker tweeker chick there. She gave me a free mini frosty tag and Hep c.

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>>65593442
>18 in a split rig
Yeah

>>65594802
At that digital NV budget you're getting steel or very ratty third hand 20yo ceramics. There isn't going to be a clear cut option until you get to at least $200 a set. Then 10800s, 2014Gs, 10079s are on the table. Raise to $300 and you get 2518s and used Hescos, raise to $400 and you've got 4403s, T212s, and 1635s. Then the market flatlines for a bit until you get to the $800-1300 mid-grade range, flatline, then $2k and up big bucks.
>shipping insurance
This is a scam.

>>65594866

okay ranjesh

>>65595777

>dem trips

That said, I was thinking about $150-200 for a set because inflation lmao. Seems like copsurp is the only option in that price range unless you go sketch af D-grade Chinesium Aliexpress PE IIIs. I miss pasta plates being $45 a pop from Sportsman's. No free lunch indeed.

>>65596497
>copsurp
Taser brand Tasers are ~$100/ea on Aim. $10/cartridge, nerlver cheaper. The "drive stun" as a pain compliance alone is worth $100.

>>65596601

Gotta focus on armor before less lethal right now. Already got some Sabre pepper spray and a basic stun gun, $10 each, which will have to do until I get the armor ideas worked out.

why the fuck did we stop posting the fucking gear recommendations besides plates and started replacing it with ai slop bs

>>65596746
Because searching Amazon for LED lights takes longer than searching Amazon for Bluetooth speakers. When time is short and work is long, armor posting wins.

>>65596497
Gilliam also discontinued or is about to discontinue the $186 OA+ plates so those are out.
Gotta have $200 in the pot. Otherwise you get stuck with ratty ass plates and steel. If you're lucky, ESAPIs from private snowball who can't make the note on his Challenger. Then you gotta get soft armor.
They must have tightened the screws on milspec plates. Haven't seen a good pair of surp G-Js for a while.
>>65596601
>TOC to entry team, you are cleared for entry
>aaaaaaaagh
>get down or I'll put you down!
>bzt bzt bzt
>I am not in charge!!!
>old guy dies of heart attack
>entry team, you're killing civilians.
>rank: 0/100 MENACE
>>65596746
They're in the emporium and reserve.

Also a heads up, dude on Tacswap is selling Hesco L211s for just over $400 a set, M210s just over $500.
Used L210s are going for $300/set, cheapest I've seen is $280. Negotiate them down, the L210 isn't a great plate and gets blown out by basic .308 + isn't officially rated for M855A1. Classic old gen Hesco / Reed underbuilding issues.
Guys on ebay and tacswap are trying to flip RMA 1155s (old gen) for $300 a pair. That's more than they were worth new, lol. I'd say the old 1155 is better than nothing for... $100 a set.

>>65596791

Fair enough. That said, Brotach is selling a shitload of IMPAC pistol plates for like $40 a pop. Think these could be useful standalone, like a IIA metal panel, or as a strike face on top of PE IIIs? Hell, would they shore up basic bitch IIIA enough to help with X-CUH LP BFD?

>>65597160
Not really. Backed with soft armor they only pick up 12 gauge 3" 1 1/8oz slug versus standalone "special pistol threat" protection.
They're basically improvements on the old steel "trauma plates" from the 1990s, which were worn with ballistic soft to take the steam out of 12 gauge slugs. Worn when you don't want to commit to actual plates. They're still a league below actual rifle armor.

Fundamentally, a niche case can be made for wearing IIIA in front of SRTs so the plates don't get wasted on pistol ammunition. Gilliam stated at one point he was able to pierce an unspecified (probably really shit) SRT rifle plate just by double tapping it with a 9mm handgun with minimal spacing between hits. Given the issue of switched glocks, that's a potential issue.
>Hell, would they shore up basic bitch IIIA enough to help with X-CUH LP BFD?
Hard to say. If you need to kill BFD then steel behind the plate is a hard stop (absent back spall) at an expensive weight penalty. One semi-related thing worth noting is that Level IV steel plates handle .338 Lapua and other magnum rifle threats persuasively (besides spalling...) while Level IV ceramics often pop BFD 70mm-plus, which is X-CUH level. But 14lb vs 7lb? No contest.

Was watching a playthrough of Modern Warfare 4 and was laughing my ass off at SAS operators triple-stacking plates in the front. I think Gaz blew through ten plates trying to kill some cartel dudes. God damn man. Leading Technology Composites making a mint off your ass.

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>>65592479
>>All we are... is dust in the wind dude
I may printout op pic and frame from Dollar Tree tribute. We all make our choices. Make yours count.

>>65597203

Maybe this has been asked before, but what about rigid bonded aramids instead of PE? Not as tough? What's the drawback?

>>65597247
Aramid-backed plates tend to be strong in the v50 department, but PE, PE-glass, or PE-aramid hybrid can get you similar results with lower areal density. Protech was able to drop 0.7lb a plate from the rigid aramid-backed 2230 by switching to a PE-fiberglass hybrid backer in the 2230-1. Similarly, Protech dropped weight from the PSA-4C-9812 by switching the aramid backer for PE with the 9812-R1.

>>65597269

Fascinating. So hybrids aside aramids are effectively old tech and PE is the new hotness. Also, for the budget /pfg/ special...

>is botach the only option for plates on a flat $200 budget?
>so it seems, so it seems

>>65594812
I'll try it out if the stuff tomorrow doesn't work

>>65597702
Yeah, polyethylene didn't really enter body armor until the late 1990s, so aramid backers were the go to for when you needed something better than fiberglass for a while.
PE also has storage temp concerns, which were a lot worse back then, so up until about 2015 it was still common to see alumina-aramid plates in LE use. PPI 2092, TC4C, PPI / Paraclete 2518. ESAPIs were aramid backer until about REV. G, then they swapped to PE and SiC-B4C hybrid ceramic from B4C-Aramid, keeping weight same but adding M995 and raising multi-hit. PE = lower areal density, SiC-B4C = higher AD. Cancels out.

>>65598508

Okay, that makes sense, older PE is a fair bit weaker, like the pasta III plates that don't do MSC but easily handle lead core stuff. On the topic of older plates, I'm thinking the current /pfg/ loadout will be a Botach Discreet carrier with two of whatever best III or IV plates are on their copsurp website. Shouldn't be more than $230 total with shipping and handling.

>>65599046
That would be the Paraclete 10800s right now. Those Protech 2115Gs were Protech's budget model. I like the 2518s a lot better but they're old school 0101.04 and need soft.
>older PE is a fair bit weaker
Yeah, it was generally advised as late as the mid-2010s (Body Armor: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly effortpost) to avoid UHMWPE entirely, especially for soft armor:
>"Avoid Spectrashield, Spectra woven, or Dyneema: This material is based on polyethylene, the same stuff that milk jugs are made of. The armor version is referred to as Ultra High Molecular Weight Poly-Ethylene (UHMWPE). In situations where it gets hot (and most car trunks in the summer can get HOT), it will denature, reverting back to simple milk jug plastic. Armoring FAIL. I used to be a fan of this stuff until I read some great info by Kevin "Mad Dog" Mclung and Doctor Roberts ("DocGKR"), two names that you should look up and listen to. They did some eye opening tests (especially Mad Dog) on the dangers of Spectra. If the material goes over 180 F, it becomes a danger to its wearer."
So long story short, do NOT store PE plates in hot car trunks.
Granted, the above info is old school, but keep in mind even Integris continues to advise temp limitations on current PE plates.
Naturally, this also has ramifications for plates that use UHMWPE backers. My aramid backed Protech 2230s will stand long term versus a car trunk in Texas. The Adept Colossus will not (PE backer!).

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New updates on the Gilliam front. Congratulations to anon (>>65587240) for correctly guesstimating the 8002 GEN-II is downgraded to M993 protection at only 6.75lb / 1.15" thick. However, Gilliam appears to have taken notes from his AMA here and is developing a new plate called the 8002H.
This is much heavier at 7.75lb / 1.25", multi or single curve, and is anticipated to stop the following:
>1. 7.62x54R 7N37
>2. .300 Winmag Swiss P AP
>3. 7.62x51mm M948 SLAP
>4. 7.92x57mm SmKH
M948 defeats the Colossus on a v50 basis while SmKH and 7N37 defeat it wholesale, so this would be on a different "level" entirely versus Adept's strongest commercially available plate. A plate rated for actually modern tungsten AP is very welcome news.

>>65599372
8002L (light) is still built with slightly more substantial materials layers (but w SiC) than the Colossus. We anticipate Colossus level performance and maybe slightly better out of the 6.75 pounder (SAPI M). It may not resist 7N37 and the like --- and may not even try it depending on how many shots we can get for both tests.

8002H (Heavy) Once the chamfers are cut this plate will weigh about 7.75 pounds. Threat testing will be against much of what went through the Colossus on the Buffman test about a year ago. The 8002H has more material than the C for sure. It should do better... but how much better I don't know. It's a tile array so may perform better with the same shot spacing.

Depending on the results, we may not even pursue commercialization. We are not planning to keep working with arrays on a regular basis... but if this R&D works out, we may keep the 8002L and 8002H.

>>65599493
Good luck with the tests. I'd reckon you'll move units for sure if you can demo a plate considerably stronger than Colossus, because you'll basically have that market segment to yourself. 7N37 plates are rare outside of Russia, Scandinavia, and Ukraine. Ukraine actually got screwed a couple years back by a company called Hyperion on some (not) 7N37 rated plates, so if you get ITAR worked out then a plate like that has international appeal. Ukraine might want some. Hesco 4403 weight but potentially rated for XSAPI-killers like 7N37. That ain't bad.

How are you doing multi-curve and tile array with this layup?

That guy still has a pair of Defender 275s on Tacswap. They're B-32 API plates, not Level IV. Would make for a pretty good less-than-overt getup assuming they're in good condition. No drop pro, multi-hit sucks (it's 2x BZ API at 4" or so). It's similar to an RMA XRT but much lighter.
He's had them for two months, so lowballs are probably on the table.
https://tacswap.com/post/6a8535f9dfd67aedf262f143

>>65599129
PE used in ballistic applications is processed at 260F for several hours. Highly doubtful that the 185F or so in a car trunk would do any damage to pressed PE. IMO, more likely that the adhesives themselves would soften (used in composite PE or aramid). Use of T-Link or similar helps avoid the issue but the real weak link is the temp limits used when bonding the armor rather than the temp limits of the materials themselves (in a general sense). Good luck getting manufacturers to tell you which adhesives they are using.

>>65600652
Big difference between several hours and several weeks, months, etc. See Tencate's warranty language:
>The plate is expected to preserve its conformity with the specifications
for a period of at least 5 years during storage from the date of delivery,
provided that:
>Do not sit on the insert
>Do not drop the insert on the floor and avoid other hard shock(s)
>The product is stored under dry conditions at normal ambient
temperature
>The product is stored vertically
>Do a visual inspection of the insert every sixmonth
>The product has not been subjected to peak temperature exceeding
70°C
>In case of visual damages, send the insert
back for inspection/repair
>The product is protected against long term direct exposure to sun light
If PE plates were trunk immune then the above language, particularly ambient temp storage, wouldn't be there.

>>65600667
Didn't say they were immune. Said the real risk is the adhesives. PE is processed at 260F. Warranties are well... disclosures to defer risk from the manufacturer. Operationally, it's the adhesives. You certainly shouldn't "store" the plates in your trunk in the Summer. 70C is silly... that's just an out. Wouldn't damage the plates. Even the NIJ 0101.07 temp cycle limits are 194F (90C).

>>65600684
Well, you did.
>Highly doubtful that the 185F or so in a car trunk would do ANY (emphasis added) damage to pressed PE
The following is a major walkback from the above:
>You certainly shouldn't "store" the plates in your trunk in the Summer.
I'm inclined more to believe the only armor company with no NIJ suspensions or product recalls in forty years. Do not store plates with PE backers in car trunks. It's what DocGKR said too. Polyethylene is polyethylene. I agree adhesives are another issue, but this is one area where it's much better to be safe than sorry.

>>65592479
>Magazine
It's called a clip, sonny.

>>65600652
>Good luck getting manufacturers to tell you which adhesives they are using.
Also as a side bar to this point, good luck getting manufacturers to tell you which grades of polyethylene they're using. Adept for example is notoriously "mystery meat." After ten years they have no compliant models.
If plates are not on the NIJ CPL then they can change specifications at any time, freely. There are no less than four models calling themselves the Adept Colossus. There are material differences in construction which lend themselves to material differences in performance. White version has less BFD. Latest version has better drop pro. For another example, the Protech 2230-1 is NOT NIJ compliant. The 2230 is. The mere act of changing the green cover to black voids the original cert. The total change of backer material would do it again.
Ergo, 2230-1 was not demonstrably subjected to the NIJ conditioning protocol and therefore jury is out on the long term "storage durability" of the Glass-PE hybrid backer versus the 2230's aramid.

>>65600880
Who knows enough to make a table showing where these mfg get their ceramic? I see the stuff about PE and mystery meat but where does the hard front part come from? Let's be real and talk about the mystery meat from all the angles not just PE. I thought that was all secret for most co's. If Adept has the mystery meat PE then seems like most other cos have the mystery potatoes where ceramic is not known (that ain't a good thing either). Don't pick and choose and gripe about one part and forget about other stuff.

>>65601205
>Who knows enough to make a table showing where these mfg get their ceramic
A lot of it is either inferred or insider info, but nowadays it's overwhelmingly Bitossi, St. Gobain, Coors, or another one of the big names. Bitossi dominates for 99.7% pure Alumina.
>I see the stuff about PE and mystery meat
Because there are two big names, Dyneema and Honeywell Spectra, and each name has dozens of different grades, then you've got smaller outfits and China. Jury is out on how well the unknown PE works conditioned if it's never part of a compliant product.
Ceramic is inert and unlike PE has no risk of storage issues other than rough handling and drops.
>where does the hard front part come from
Adept plays that close to the chest, but patent timing at least on the Colossus strongly suggests a Chinese firm called Shandong Yasai for the SiC-TiB2.
Given that they haven't disclosed sourcing or gotten any products certified in ten years, the default answer is China.
Not a big deal if plates are stored at ambient and not subjected to car trunks. I Adept's partners, Gilliam and SAS, also have had no issue using chinese components.
>I thought that was all secret
No not really, they mostly all source from the same companies. That's why the RMA 1155 G2 and Hesco 4403 are so similar when sizing is controlled. Bitossi alumina face. Fiberglass backer.
>If Adept has the mystery meat PE
Would explain why they're able to deal B4C-SiC / TiB2 doped plates for less than Hesco's dealers do basic SiC-PE...
>seems like most other cos have the mystery potatoes
You do have to disclose sourcing for NIJ compliance as part of the workmanship rules. NIJ is anal about ensuring a model is identical. 0101.07 doubles down. Hesco uses Spectra. LTC uses Dyneema.
>Don't pick and choose and gripe about one part and forget about other stuff.
Because SiC-TiB2 is just as inert to car trunks as basic SiC. I didn't discuss ceramic there because it isn't temp sensitive and ergo isn't relevant.

>>65601205
and to tl;dr >>65601260, sourcing really doesn't matter if the product is NIJ compliant (as in, on the CPL) and there aren't concerns about funny sizing, cheat rings, or beyond-NIJ factors affecting performance. Example being IVs failing the Level III test. A lot do.
NIJ isn't the end all be all, but it's a bare minimum that allows you to skim doing your homework. Some companies (RMA / Adept) make it seem like a giant undertaking all the while Hesco, Slate, Highcom, and random outfits like Kim (Turkey) and Readynow had 0101.07 compliant products day one.
There are tactical reasons to avoid NIJ compliance for a product, especially if you need the model to stay secret given the CPL is a public doc, or strategic - like you're Ceradyne (rip) and only appeal to military clients. However, there's a big difference between Ceradyne and a company like RMA. RMA should have had the 1155 G2 certified day one. They dropped the ball.

>>65596746
because the /bag/ faggots decided they needed to shit up this general.

>>65601468
>waaaagh
the post

>>65601311
but can't the cermics and poly come from China on the approved list? seem to me like knowing where it comes from is actually relevant not just saying that if it is approved it doesn't matter about the source.

>>65601533

Actually yes. Longfri brings raw PE components over to the US and does the plate assembly at an American factory, and they have an NIJ certified product. Not sure what the completion percentage ratio is but all the NIJ needs is a stateside factory they can inspect and grab random test plates from. That's how Shotstop's fraud plates flew under the radar for so long, they had an official factory the NIJ inspected, but also a front company warehouse across town where uncertified F-grade Chinesium non-armor was falsely labeled as NIJ CPL armor before being shipped to LE agencies. Only reason they got caught was them ironically trying to smuggle their latest shipment into the US, and CBP found it because lmao signs of smuggling in this container, time to seize and investigate!

>>65601533
Indeed. It's a common misconception that Chinese armor cannot be certified. It can if you count sourcing and it's made CONUS like >>65601558 states. However, that requires having a legitimate US address and Adept doesn't have that either. Neither does Militech. Real reasoning IMO is to avoid being under US jurisdiction. The guy that runs Adept is originally from Hong Kong. If god forbid a plate fails then he can hop on a plane and he's gone.

>>65601533
>seem to me like knowing where it comes from is actually relevant not just saying that if it is approved it doesn't matter about the source.
Also to address the point here, the problem with mystery meat PE is that you don't know the grade, temp limit, actual strength, etc. If PE passes RF1 as proven by the NIJ CPL, then it as a baseline meets requirements and ergo the sourcing issue is moot. If it works, it works. If it can handle conditioning, it handles conditioning. Chinese or American or EU doesn't matter unless we get into the weeds of margin, areal density, BFD, and finished product weight.

>>65601664
consistency in making the stuff matters. just like an uncert plate, foreign mfg can change specs and you would not know it until a round passed through a plate man maybe your own. no thx - it really does matter where the stuff comes from. that goes for the ceramic too. you'd be surprised at how greed and chase of almighty dollar can send even good companies down the gutter

>>65601751

That's why the NIJ does regular random testing. It's not just an immediate shoot test, they condition the plates and do a full variance check as well. Weight, sizing, thickness, all that. Any variance or failure and your plates are getting suspended pending retest. Most Chinesium manufacturers can't handle that kind of QC (or any QC at all) so they don't even try. IIRC Longfri is the only Chinese company that has enough QC to maintain an active NIJ CPL listing.

What’s a good carrier for thicc ass plates? I’m talking juicy thicc

>>65601751
>foreign mfg can change specs and you would not know it until a round passed through a plate man
This is not exclusive to foreign manufacturers. Any product NOT on the CPL can change specs literally at any time. Drop of a hat. There are three "models" of RMA 1192s for example. 5.7lb, 5.9lb, 6.25lb. All plates must be identical in construction under NIJ rules. Major weight deviations like that would violate NIJ and ergo are different models. There are two Hesco 4800LVs. One SRT standalone, another needs IIIA to stop M2AP at all. There are four versions of the Adept Colossus, three Archons, two Thunders, two Emperors (the Emperor is allegedly an improved N1, but IMO N1 > Emps), I could go on. Again, not on CPL = specs can change at any time. If it's on the CPL, you're locked in.

Big problem with NIJ is that they at most run FITs once a year unless something's abnormal. Very easy for bad batches to slip and that's why rep matters too. See Hesco's six FIT failures. But at least with NIJ regular testing is done.
>>65601779
As much as we talk fondly of Militech, it is good to keep in mind they could easily just be sending great plates to guys like Buffman and sending the rest of us dogshit. RMA could be doing the same thing. In fact, one anon's 1155 failed to two 7.62x51mm Tulammo when Buff's stopped several M2AP. QC shit the bed is my guess, although Buff's was 0.2lb heavier than advertised... ditto for his RMA 1192s being 10oz overweight.
Remember, only a SMALL fraction of total plates on the market are actually tested. Highcom sold roughly over 20,000 4SAS4s. I believe no more than twenty were shot in third party results. Very, very easy for people to be running shit plates and not know it. Is why we shit on RMA / Highcom when those are reddit's house brands.
>>65601911
Define juicy thicc. 1.2" or are we talking Adept Colossus + Adept Bulletfoam 1.7"?

>>65601936
1.3-5 range. This would include pads. Like I said, double moon and twice on Sunday thicc.

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>>65601936
The kind of thicc that says “these aren’t plates. I broke my back and have to wear this brace” thicc

>>65601942
My TT vest can do 1.4" (2230 + Armor Express IIIA backers) but requires man-assing esp with the front platebag since it goes in from the side.
What plate exactly, however? If you run CAPs you attach those pads outside the platebag so that doesn't go into fitment issues at all.
Maybe reach out to Adept and ask how they want people to use Bulletfoam with Emperor or Colossus.
>>65601946
Does actually beg the question of how Adept wants people to run 1.7" thick bulletfoam setups...

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>>65601956
I hear it’s a pretty exclusive plate line. You might not have heard of it. These might even be limited edition you could say. Some might say they’re even signed by Gilliam himself. They’re just the Helion rf1’s. I really just need to get the tt and be done with it. They should clear. I’ve currently been mesmerized by trash bag pgn-60’s though. Go birds!

>>65601972
Yeah they're thick but budget RF1 at 2.5lb a pop ain't bad. Pound lighter than LON-III-Ps.
In other news. It has now been nearly three months and Adept's pages on the new Mantis and Bulletfoam are 404s.
Never seen an armor product blunder a launch that bad. Let alone two. On the other hand, Buffman will be testing the Adept Emperor soonish. Will have to see how it does versus the 11 year old Hescuh 4800, especially given the 4800 has no headroom.
Damn industry is just slow as hell these days because everybody's broke.

Also Botach has more $75 Ceradyne BA3A IIIA helmets in. I believe these are now nerfanon approved.
https://surplus.botach.com/3m-ceradyne-ba3a-ballistic-helmet-pasgt-cut-nij-level-iiia-police-trade/

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>Kaiser Trenchworks eBay is gone
Damn shame, I hope he’s just taking a break.

>>65602082
bro probably ragequit because he got INAD returned on and lost all his money because they shipped him back a rock

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>>65602086
Did someone actually do that to him? In my opinion he made the best chest rigs you can get for less than $100.

>>65602094
It came to me in a dream

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>>65602098
It’s now canon.

>>65602102
>me trying to find hard specs on $5,000 Ceradyne SAEC super plates

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>>65602094
wepr goes hard

how to shit in full kit

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>>65602115
tactical nappy

>>65602128
>>65602115
tactical skirt and just freeball it.

>>65602111
It’s such a nice rifle to shoot. It’s a VEPR II that Krebs got ahold of. It has a Galil style selector on the left side.

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>>65602137
RIP big nigga, he made so much cool shit
>>65602128
>powerful , beautiful Ashkenazi chad lords over his hideous, chud Mizrahi subordinates

>>65602128
Guy all the way on the right looks like the kinda dude who gets his AR500 plates repo'd by Sezzle for not making 12 easy payments

>>65602145
Indeed he did. Russia should have paid him to design the AK12, it would have been magical.

>>65592479
>!NmwoimY-kl7
Pls define?

>>65596746
I will warn you now, I have real, actual 3d gear incoming...

amazon lost my package
amazon lost me the boog

>>65602329
>for want of an amazon pkg, a horse shoe was lost...
Or something like that.

>>65602344
I BOUGHT TACTICAL SOCKS
AND DARIUS LLST THEM
TWO HOUS AWAE

>>65602347
Make to look it up. My version actually includes a knight, battle and kingdom, but we.

>For want of a nail" is aproverb, having numerous >variations over several centuries, reminding that >seemingly unimportant acts or omissions can >have grave andunforeseen
>consequencesthrough adomino effect.

>PoetGeorge Herbertincluded it in a 1640 >collection of aphorisms as "For want of a naile
>the shoe is lost, for want of a shoe the horse is
>lost, for want of a horse the rider is lost."
>[1]Benjamin Franklin, in his 1758Poor Richard's >Almanack, recorded a longer version:

>For want of a nail the shoe was lost;
>for want of a shoe the horse was lost;
>and for want of a horse the rider was lost,
>being overtaken and slain by the enemy,
>all for want of care about a horse-shoe nail.

I need some inspiration from the NVG gurus

I have a 10 year old dash-GPS unit, which I want to modify to use with night vision
I have driven a bit with night vision, and I'm mostly missing a way to see how fast I'm driving; I can't look at my dash cluster, because I can't find out a simple way to turn its lighting off, so I just stuff sweater or shirt into it to cover it up. The maps and navigation are just an extra at this point. Luckily I can show the GPS speed by itself.

Is there some foil filter that I can apply like a screenprotector that filters out all light except IR, or does the backlight not produce any IR? Can I replace the backlight easily with IR leds?
Any other solution to this? The only other idea I can come up with is an arduino with GPS and some Text-to-speech board or MP3 board to communicate the GPS speed through speech.

(no my shitbox does not have cruise control)

>>65602361
benjamin franklin bounced a check to pizza hut